MCU is the sequel to LOTR

Nolder · January 10, 2019

So I was watching Infinity War earlier on Netflix and it struck me that the MCU is really the cultural sequel to Lord of the Rings. Before LOTR there had been fantasy movies (and superhero) and book adaptions but nothing as ambitious as a very high budget trilogy of films. Star Wars would be the only comparison but at least at that time sci fi was relatively popular and profitable. Harry Potter doesn't count for a few reasons but the most important being it's aimed at a young audience. Fantasy in films has done marginal at the best of times. But then LOTR happened and it was a huge success. Audiences were willing to sit through nearly 3 hours of elves and wizards and come back for more. Again I want to stress that that was pretty much unheard of before LOTR.

So what was the next step? Not just a single story told over a series of films but a series of films with their own stories spanning over a decade which created a very rich and detailed universe all driving towards a final confrontation. At first audiences came to see Iron Man or Hulk but eventually they started coming to see the next step the Marvel Universe would take. I know you all know this and I'm not pretending to say anything profound or original it just hit me as I finished Infinity War what a truly massive undertaking it must have been on every level. I mean it's often difficult to get the same actor sign on to do 2 movies let alone a decades worth. My only wish is that it all ends gracefully with Endgame. I know there is a Spiderman movie coming out after that but that's ok since Sony has rights to it and it doesn't need to connect to the larger MCU after Endgame. I think it would be a mistake to continue the MCU as a whole after Endgame for a variety of reasons not the least of which is name recognition. Most people had heard of Captain America or Iron Man, Ant Man and Black Panther are pushing it. If they continue with unknowns outside comic fans sales will dwindle. If they pull a DBZ and try to one up the Thanos story fans will get weary and sales will dwindle. Endgame is the end and it needs to be that way or else.

Anyone have any thoughts?

SinisterDeath · January 10, 2019

3 hours ago, Nolder said:

If they pull a DBZ and try to one up the Thanos story fans will get weary and sales will dwindle. Endgame is the end and it needs to be that way or else.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Given the way the comics are, they could pull a X-Men Days of Future Past, creating a new timeline, new Universe, A new Cast... for another take at the same/similar stories. But ultimately there are issues with fan loyalties to certain Actors are that Character... And finding a good replacement actor a decade from now can be.. troublesome. Though there's tons of other teams, other really good characters out there.

RDJ is the perfect actor for Iron Man. I simply cannot picture anyone other actor being Iron Man.
Just like Hugh Jackman is the only actor I can picture playing Wolverine. After enough time, and the next perfect actor comes along, perhaps fans can forget about the old ones.

Like Spider-Man (2002). Tobey Maguire was the ONLY Spider-man for the role. That new guy? He sucked! People hated him.

But this new kid? He surpasses Tobey Maguire in every way! It only took... ~10 years after Spider-Man 3 (2007) for a new Spider-Man to exist that fans didn't hate.

I really hope, one day, o see a Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe movie..

And I hope to see Squirrel Girl take down Thanos in the most anticlimactic way possible.

Image result for squirrel girl takes down thanos

And the obvious Deadpool X Squirrel Girl.

(Oddly, I could see Felicia Day making a good Squirrel Girl..Aubrey Plaza Could do the look, but she's just to freaking weird.)

Nolder · January 10, 2019

I agree the other new Spiderman sucked but the new new Spiderman is very good which is one of the reasons it wouldn't bother me if they made a few movies past Endgame.

Andrej · January 11, 2019

I've of the opinion that MCU is watered down a little too much as is, though I still do enjoy some of the bigger ensemble movies. I think the dialogue is so funny, like the Thor/Banner exchanges in Ragnarok, Start/Quill & Quill/Thor, & Stark/Strange in IW etc.

Has the trailer for Endgame been released yet?

I mean, technically there are bigger baddies in the MCU out there but I don't know how viable it is movie/franchise wise. I like the DBZ comparison though.

Andrej · January 11, 2019

Krakalakachkn · January 12, 2019

Pretty meh about the MCU as a whole. There have been some decent movies but there are only 4 or 5 I would ever revisit.

Infinity War was trash. The Avengers movies were pretty bad. IMO LotR is leaps and bounds better than almost any MCU movie on all fronts. And I wouldn't even say that it was due to the source material.

Krakalakachkn · January 12, 2019

That said, I should really rewatch IW before forming a definite opinion on it.

Nolder · January 14, 2019

On 1/11/2019 at 10:37 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

Pretty meh about the MCU as a whole. There have been some decent movies but there are only 4 or 5 I would ever revisit.

Infinity War was trash. The Avengers movies were pretty bad. IMO LotR is leaps and bounds better than almost any MCU movie on all fronts. And I wouldn't even say that it was due to the source material.

On 1/11/2019 at 10:40 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

That said, I should really rewatch IW before forming a definite opinion on it.

?????

What don't you like about them?

Nolder · January 14, 2019

Also remember that LOTR had Tolkiens work to pull from.

Not knocking comic books but A) they are so much more limited than a novel and B) The MCU is NOT Fantasy, which may be where your preferences lay. Mine certainly do.

BFG · January 14, 2019

I think I disagree about the need for name recognition now. I think the name recognition is the marvel universe now, more than any individual characters

From a point of view I'd argue that the DC characters are far better known to the general public, but the films taken as a whole don't do nearly as well (Nolan's batman did really well and wonder woman (but I may be equating critical with public lol), but the rest?). So it's not really the 'brand/character' recognition, but the result and mcu have built up a lot of good will. At some point they'll reach saturation but I'm not sure they're there yet. Mark Ruffalo has a few movies left on his contract at least, and I'm pretty sure there are sequels to black panther as well as Spiderman planned

BFG · January 14, 2019

For me the danger lies with bigger, badder, stronger. I get bored when the fights just come down to who has the bigger weapon. Civil War did really well in keeping the big fights engaging, infinity war slightly less. I don't need a bigger baddie, I need more antmans lol, where the character matters more than the power

Krakalakachkn · January 16, 2019

On 1/14/2019 at 3:43 PM, Nolder said:

?????

What don't you like about them?

Formulaic, unwilling to take risks, unexciting. At this point it's just plug n chug. Even a movie that was as different as Black Panther still felt squashed into a pre-existing expectation of what it should be. With a movie like Thor 3 that I actually found entertaining, it's obvious that some directors can work within the bounds of what is expected, but it's still pretty tame.

I realize that it's almost always 'good guys win' but look at what Raimi did with Spider Man. Even if we say that MacGuire is alright, what they were able to accomplish was still rad. We weren't sure he could win even when we knew he would. And then, of course, there was collateral damage that felt like it meant something.

This is a side point rather than a main one, but when I think of what could be it really makes me sad. The source material could be mined so much more successfully. I realize that this is always going to be the case, but alas and alack.

On the surface it's almost oxymoronic, but basically when you put too much gloss on superheroes it gets so boring.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Krakalakachkn

SinisterDeath · January 16, 2019

2 hours ago, Krakalakachkn said:

Formulaic, unwilling to take risks, unexciting. At this point it's just plug n chug. Even a movie that was as different as Black Panther still felt squashed into a pre-existing expectation of what it should be. With a movie like Thor 3 that I actually found entertaining, it's obvious that some directors can work within the bounds of what is expected, but it's still pretty tame.

I realize that it's almost always 'good guys win' but look at what Raimi did with Spider Man. Even if we say that MacGuire is alright, what they were able to accomplish was still rad. We weren't sure he could win even when we knew he would. And then, of course, there was collateral damage that felt like it meant something.

This is a side point rather than a main one, but when I think of what could be it really makes me sad. The source material could be mined so much more successfully. I realize that this is always going to be the case, but alas and alack.

On the surface it's almost oxymoronic, but basically when you put too much gloss on superheroes it gets so boring.

That describes basically every Hollywood movie. :wink:

Krakalakachkn · January 16, 2019

Nah I disagree

BFG · March 23, 2019

Has anyone seen captain marvel? To my surprise I actually really enjoyed it ?

Illian Tear · March 23, 2019

I liked it.

Nolder · March 23, 2019

30 minutes ago, BFG said:

Has anyone seen captain marvel? To my surprise I actually really enjoyed it ?

Not yet. I heard it bombed in theaters.

BFG · March 23, 2019

45 minutes ago, Nolder said:

Not yet. I heard it bombed in theaters.

Looking at stats I think the 7th strongest MU opening and the third strongest march opening

I think it was downvoted on Rotten tomatoes pre release as some people disliked Brie Lawson making a vocal point about asking her interviews to include more diversity :unsure:

Edited March 23, 2019 by BFG

Nolder · March 23, 2019

2 hours ago, BFG said:

Looking at stats I think the 7th strongest MU opening and the third strongest march opening

I think it was downvoted on Rotten tomatoes pre release as some people disliked Brie Lawson making a vocal point about asking her interviews to include more diversity

Oh was that what it was?

I'm always suspicious of that sort of activity. Call me crazy but I think it could just as easily be activists leaving bad reviews so people will feel sympathetic as people not liking what the main actress said about diversity in some interview. I dunno, either way it's dumb and I wish people wouldn't do it whoever they are and whatever their reasons. There are better ways to address the movie (if it needs addressing) than leaving fake reviews on rotten tomatoes.

BFG · March 24, 2019

10 hours ago, Nolder said:

Oh was that what it was?

I'm always suspicious of that sort of activity. Call me crazy but I think it could just as easily be activists leaving bad reviews so people will feel sympathetic as people not liking what the main actress said about diversity in some interview. I dunno, either way it's dumb and I wish people wouldn't do it whoever they are and whatever their reasons. There are better ways to address the movie (if it needs addressing) than leaving fake reviews on rotten tomatoes.

/shrug there appear to be 3 lines of discontent

That the main actress asked for more diversity in the interviews (although I think she was more blunt in her phrasing and initially asked for fewer white middle aged males, and later clarified more diverse). Also that she's being paid significantly more for her first movie than eg Robert Downey Jr was for ironman 1, although I think this is correct I haven't seen any analysis that compares her first pay with eg the payscales in Spiderman, black panther, antman etc (or other first films since the universe became so popular). the marvel universe films are a different beast now to 20 odd films ago

That captain marvel was initially a male character(?)

That they think endgame will all be about captain marvel and sideline the other main characters (this would be a mistake if done, but I see little reason to believe that's the plan, it does seem from contracts if nothing else that marvel will be one of the core group for the next phase)

Regardless I agree it's dumb, and I enjoyed the film more than I thought I would (my misgivings being that I generally dislike heroes that are super super super powered, or at least get bored by their plotlines. I appreciate the irony in someone that enjoys superhero films and fantasy in general). But I enjoyed the marvel/fury dynamic, laughed a fair bit and generally enjoyed it

From a different perspective, its currently my niece's favourite MU film, and captain marvel is her favourite character, but she's more of a DC fan at the moment from watching the DC school series(?) and she does enjoy super powered female heroes in general

Nolder · March 27, 2019

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, BFG said:

/shrug there appear to be 3 lines of discontent

That the main actress asked for more diversity in the interviews (although I think she was more blunt in her phrasing and initially asked for fewer white middle aged males, and later clarified more diverse).

First, sorry for the late reply I've been sick and so I put this off because I thought it might be a long reply.

As to the statements she made, it's par the course for most in Hollywood these days. Pretty messed up and I understand why fans and non fans alike would react negatively towards her and the movie.

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, BFG said:

Also that she's being paid significantly more for her first movie than eg Robert Downey Jr was for ironman 1, although I think this is correct I haven't seen any analysis that compares her first pay with eg the payscales in Spiderman, black panther, antman etc (or other first films since the universe became so popular). the marvel universe films are a different beast now to 20 odd films ago

I think it's up to the studios to pay whatever they want. If they HAVE to have Brie Larson then they're going to pay what she asks. I don't agree with comparing one actors pay to another, it's very arbitrary. Even for someone's first film compared to a well established A lister if they think the new person is going to net them more money than they're putting out then they'll pay and that's just the way it is.

Also you have a point that the Marvel movies are a different beast than they were like 20 films ago. Very true.

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, BFG said:

That captain marvel was initially a male character(?)

No idea about this. Generally speaking I'm ok with a race swap but against gender swaps. I think Sam Jackson as Nick Fury is badass and perfect. IIRC in the comics Thor is a woman right now and I think that's really stupid and lame. Like the movies (maybe the comics as well idk) gave us the Valkyries and I think that's a great opportunity to have a woman hero inside that universe/storyline. It doesn't literally have to be Thorina, you know?

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, BFG said:

That they think endgame will all be about captain marvel and sideline the other main characters (this would be a mistake if done, but I see little reason to believe that's the plan, it does seem from contracts if nothing else that marvel will be one of the core group for the next phase)

If it is it is. Actually I think it would be kind of funny to watch them bungle the biggest media project in film history.

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, BFG said:

Regardless I agree it's dumb, and I enjoyed the film more than I thought I would (my misgivings being that I generally dislike heroes that are super super super powered, or at least get bored by their plotlines. I appreciate the irony in someone that enjoys superhero films and fantasy in general). But I enjoyed the marvel/fury dynamic, laughed a fair bit and generally enjoyed it

I'll let you know what I think when I see it.

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, BFG said:

From a different perspective, its currently my niece's favourite MU film, and captain marvel is her favourite character, but she's more of a DC fan at the moment from watching the DC school series(?) and she does enjoy super powered female heroes in general

I don't like DC. I like...like Batman and a few DC villains. That's about it.