What to keep, what to drop?

[mistborn82]

I'm 1/3 or so through tDR so my thoughts so far.

The recap and Rand running away chapters can be dropped or condensed but Simeon's brother might have to be kept as he seems important for the finality of Perrin. I'm not completely sure about this as his storyline will have to be sped up and spread out.

Mat's awesone and most of his stuff should be kept

ENE, I think some of their stuff can be skipped but I think the attack on Egwene and Nyneave should be there. I think Egwene's accepted test needs to be kept, especially as later in the series Egwene is the only Emondsfielder who has little to no concern for her home, whereas the test shows where she started. I think Elayne's test should be shown too, instead of offstaged.

Verin, I think the showrunners should come at her as if they'll get eight full seasons and decide whether they want to make her as important as the books or just combine some named brown sisters. I always took the Verin scene in tGS as there not being notes on how to resolve the BA so Brandon writing Verin to fit that.

Finally Lanfear, it can be filled by a randon BA, maybe Alviarin because her masquerade makes absolutely no sense as part of a larger story, much like the whole Arangar subplot later. My guess is RJ wrote the Dark Prophecy when she had greater involvement with the Tower but he went in another direction.

I'm where Lanfear just tricked them into finding the BA bags pointing to Tear.

[johnnysd2]

22 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

I'm 1/3 or so through tDR so my thoughts so far.

The recap and Rand running away chapters can be dropped or condensed but Simeon's brother might have to be kept as he seems important for the finality of Perrin. I'm not completely sure about this as his storyline will have to be sped up and spread out.

Mat's awesone and most of his stuff should be kept

ENE, I think some of their stuff can be skipped but I think the attack on Egwene and Nyneave should be there. I think Egwene's accepted test needs to be kept, especially as later in the series Egwene is the only Emondsfielder who has little to no concern for her home, whereas the test shows where she started. I think Elayne's test should be shown too, instead of offstaged.

Verin, I think the showrunners should come at her as if they'll get eight full seasons and decide whether they want to make her as important as the books or just combine some named brown sisters. I always took the Verin scene in tGS as there not being notes on how to resolve the BA so Brandon writing Verin to fit that.

Finally Lanfear, it can be filled by a randon BA, maybe Alviarin because her masquerade makes absolutely no sense as part of a larger story, much like the whole Arangar subplot later. My guess is RJ wrote the Dark Prophecy when she had greater involvement with the Tower but he went in another direction.

I'm where Lanfear just tricked them into finding the BA bags pointing to Tear.

 

Replace Lanfear? I would think her role would be expanded if anything in the story

[mistborn82]

@johnnysd2I don't mean in the whole series, I just mean in the book or expand her role in the tower as right now she seems to be there for busy work. Of course I think Be'lal will be expanded or his role taken by Ishamael as there's really no point to Be'lal as he is now other than giving Moiraine a Forsaken to kill.

[Carebear Sedai]

On 10/9/2019 at 6:28 PM, JJLXL said:

I believe they will sexualize that story a lot more, to peek viewership.  Also, I'm betting they turn it into a mini-love story.

 

They could play up Rand's attraction to her as a redux of how LTT first fell in love with Mierin, assuming she retains some of those good qualities, and then falling sharply out of love when confronted with her cold ambition. Otherwise she's a slog to get through. 

 

On 10/9/2019 at 11:02 AM, mistborn82 said:

Egwene's captivity, I don't know if more need be shown but in later seasons, if, her trauma needs to be played up as the reason for some of her actions. Because in this day, I don't think you can get away with having her go through trauma like that and never showing it.

 

I like to believe this is an arc the showrunners will gladly jump on. Egwene has bratty tendencies in the later couple of books that can be restructured to seem as her grasping to remain in control. The girls captivity in Tear can end with a threat of a 13 on 13 conversion and trigger her trauma and be an emotional hurdle on the lead up to their escape.

 

Juilin and Hurin can be merged as they serve similar functions. 

[mistborn82]

Egwene's arc will probably change most because in the first few books it seems she remembers where she comes from and then she forgets. All Emonds Fielders seem to still remember but not her. Also she raises Nyneave and Elayne as people she can trust but then bullies them when they don't do what she wants. If the series gets that far, it also seems there will have to be some sort of meeting or conflict between AS and Seanchan as all we have now is Egwene the Awesome(sarcasm) while everyone else is inept during the tower attack.

[Sushiwonder]

Forsaken! Who will make the cut, who will not? And will 13 remain a magic number?

We all know that when adapting book-to-screen, it's important to truncate and simplify in order to not lose the audience. With that having been said: in the books, there are 13 members of the Forsaken. There are 13 Aes Sedai (or channelers, really) that are required to turn another channeler to the Dark One against their will, accompanied by 13 Myrddraal. I'm thinking they may drop that number to something lower - like... 6 or 7 - primarily to decrease the number of Forsaken we're asking our audience to both remember and care about.

 

So how many Forsaken do you think will make the cut, and who? Do you think it will affect the importance of the number 13 at all?

I think the following, at least, should be included... wouldn't be surprised if we see some of the forsaken "absorb" the plot points of others that we'll lose:

- Lanfear (how can we not?)

- Ishamael/Moridin (I suspect we may only have one body-snatcher - otherwise, there could be mass confusion in having the audience remember who's who and why their character is even important)

- Moghedian (we need a whiny little whipping post to make us feel good about ourselves. Plus: private study sessions in Saidar!)

- Asmodean (male version whipping post - plus: private study sessions in Saidin!)

- Graendal (if for no other reason than to fan service with her extravagant parties, complete with creatively clad or non-clad contortionists)

- Demandred (because: fun with subterfuge. Mazrim Taim it up, baby! Expect a name change with either Demandred or Moiraine's last name of Damodred... and they already announced Moiraine's character name -- so that would leave us with a differently named Forsaken.)

- Ravhin (... more fun with subterfuge! Hoodwink Morgase and wreak havoc in Caemlyn!)

 

Forsaken I have a hard time remembering and therefor could be cut: 

- Aginor

- Balthamel

- Sammael *(Perhaps to absorb Demandred's character - did anybody really care about Sam's blustering, anyway? Nice name you got there... it'd be a shame if I had to... give it to Demandred instead *cackle*)

- Be'lal (New phone... who 'dis? No, seriously, who the hell is Be'lal? He is "grey-man-ish" in his lack of memorability)

- Semirhage (Share her role & character aspects with Lanny, Moggy and/or Granny)

- Mesaana (Ditto?)

Edited October 22, 2019 by Sushiwonder

[mistborn82]

Aginor and Balth I think you keep to kill permanently in the season 1 finale and Be'lal gets absorbed by Ishamael

[Sushiwonder]

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

Aginor and Balth I think you keep to kill permanently in the season 1 finale and Be'lal gets absorbed by Ishamael

 

Could be fun - I'm all about destruction ? Though it could seem like a red herring to the audience to meet and then simultaneously lose these two (assuming they minimize the body snatching -- if that's the case, I think they'd hack both to minimize confusion). Could be enough drama with Fain, Ba'alzamon and their hordes of darkfriends/trollocs/myrddraal. I suppose it also matters if they'll be bringing Ravhin and/or Lanfear into season 1.

 

Speaking of words like Myrddraal: I'm wondering if they'll shorten that to "fade" (much like how Game of Thrones chose a more marketable name of "white walkers" instead of "the others")... phonetics may play out in an interesting way with all of the unique names, titles, places and things we're all so used to reading (and not necessarily saying out loud!)

[johnnysd2]

2 hours ago, Sushiwonder said:

Forsaken! Who will make the cut, who will not? And will 13 remain a magic number?

We all know that when adapting book-to-screen, it's important to truncate and simplify in order to not lose the audience. With that having been said: in the books, there are 13 members of the Forsaken. There are 13 Aes Sedai (or channelers, really) that are required to turn another channeler to the Dark One against their will, accompanied by 13 Myrddraal. I'm thinking they may drop that number to something lower - like... 6 or 7 - primarily to decrease the number of Forsaken we're asking our audience to both remember and care about.

 

So how many Forsaken do you think will make the cut, and who? Do you think it will affect the importance of the number 13 at all?

I think the following, at least, should be included... wouldn't be surprised if we see some of the forsaken "absorb" the plot points of others that we'll lose:

- Lanfear (how can we not?)

- Ishamael/Moridin (I suspect we may only have one body-snatcher - otherwise, there could be mass confusion in having the audience remember who's who and why their character is even important)

- Moghedian (we need a whiny little whipping post to make us feel good about ourselves. Plus: private study sessions in Saidar!)

- Asmodean (male version whipping post - plus: private study sessions in Saidin!)

- Graendal (if for no other reason than to fan service with her extravagant parties, complete with creatively clad or non-clad contortionists)

- Demandred (because: fun with subterfuge. Mazrim Taim it up, baby! Expect a name change with either Demandred or Moiraine's last name of Damodred... and they already announced Moiraine's character name -- so that would leave us with a differently named Forsaken.)

- Ravhin (... more fun with subterfuge! Hoodwink Morgase and wreak havoc in Caemlyn!)

 

Forsaken I have a hard time remembering and therefor could be cut: 

- Aginor

- Balthamel

- Sammael *(Perhaps to absorb Demandred's character - did anybody really care about Sam's blustering, anyway? Nice name you got there... it'd be a shame if I had to... give it to Demandred instead *cackle*)

- Be'lal (New phone... who 'dis? No, seriously, who the hell is Be'lal? He is "grey-man-ish" in his lack of memorability)

- Semirhage (Share her role & character aspects with Lanny, Moggy and/or Granny)

- Mesaana (Ditto?)

 

I am not sure they cut any Forsaken to be honest. They really are not all around at the same time necessarily and almost all of them play important roles.  I like your list but they are almost all characters that will be fun on screen. I read that the budget for each episode is actually larger than GoT so I suspect they may not cut as much as we think as much as just streamline the story progression.  I mean there were like 20 main characters in GOT at least as well, and additional characters sort of adds depth to the show even if they are not seen that much. Big question for me sort of remains how "adult" will it be. 

[Sushiwonder]

24 minutes ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

I am not sure they cut any Forsaken to be honest. They really are not all around at the same time necessarily and almost all of them play important roles.  I like your list but they are almost all characters that will be fun on screen. I read that the budget for each episode is actually larger than GoT so I suspect they may not cut as much as we think as much as just streamline the story progression.  I mean there were like 20 main characters in GOT at least as well, and additional characters sort of adds depth to the show even if they are not seen that much. Big question for me sort of remains how "adult" will it be. 

 

Can't say I'd be unhappy if they kept all of 'em ? And I'm hoping it will be an adult-themed show, similar to GoT. I think that edginess is part of what made that show successful. That, and I'd hate for this to devolve into a cheesefest - but I think they'll do their best to avoid that, considering some of the acting caliber they have. Granted - plenty of the talent is relatively new and unknown (and I'll admit, Nynaeve having been a Power Ranger made me REAL nervous), but with Rosamund Pike, Daniel Henney, and what appears to be Michael McElhatton, They've got some core chops to work with. I think the new talent will rise to the occasion, and hopefully the writing will be top notch. LOT of pressure on the writers. I'm glad Brandon Sanderson has said he likes the first two episodes

[mistborn82]

I agree though with Fain as a lurking presence and Perrin's arc probably starting faster, you don't too much. My guess is the story for the first three will be somewhat rewitten as I don't think you have enough for three full seasons. I also don't think you can kill Ishamael twice before he permanently dies the third time as Ishamael so you probably need a level one boss, hence Aginor or Balth. You probably don't shoehorn much besides essential editions into season 1 but season 2 is where big changes.

[Jaglover]

8 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

I am not sure they cut any Forsaken to be honest. They really are not all around at the same time necessarily and almost all of them play important roles.  I like your list but they are almost all characters that will be fun on screen. I read that the budget for each episode is actually larger than GoT so I suspect they may not cut as much as we think as much as just streamline the story progression.  I mean there were like 20 main characters in GOT at least as well, and additional characters sort of adds depth to the show even if they are not seen that much. Big question for me sort of remains how "adult" will it be. 

 

But GOT also only had a handful of bad guys around at the same time. Thirteen is far too many to personalise them and have the viewer know anything about them at all. I would say one good change would be for them to stay dead once killed. that way at least we will be down to at most 11 by the end of the first season. Maybe start out with fewer of them as well. 

 

Helpful to think back to the Hobbit movies and how that became a bit of a mess in terms of characterisation for the dwarfs. I think often there is quite a dividing line with increasing numbers. Once over a certain threshold the viewer ceases to care about the characters.  

[JJLXL]

13 Forsaken is fine.  Remember, we're dealing with potentially 12 episodes per season.  If the show ends up being a hit, we'll see at least 8 seasons. Hard to compare that to the Hobbit movies.  6 hours versus 80+. 

 

 

[Sushiwonder]

I suppose the best standard to hold this against would be Game of Thrones... they had a wide cast of characters with an equally wide range of morals (which we'll encounter in this show as well: ie.: Verin, Ingtar, etc.), but only so many true adversaries. There were the Freys, the White Walkers, the Boltons, The Mountain, Euron Greyjoy... I'm probably missing a few - but it's far from 13, and the show was extremely rushed in the last two seasons. 1) I hope that this adaptation has room to breathe and that it won't be rushed towards the end and 2) there's just so much screen time. If they'll have 12 episodes a season, that would be awesome! The first may only have 6, though. Extremely excited to see this play out ? And if the first season goes well, I may have to plan a trip to Prague or wherever it is they are filming at the time, just to go there. (I got to see where they filmed north of the wall in GoT in Iceland... it was AMAZING) I just wish we had more casting updates (as I'm sure we all agree lol)

[Carebear Sedai]

I agree with the list of seven to keep, except I'll add Semirhage as a late season horror surprise, the way she was in the books. Blasting off Rand's hand and later collaring him. Her part is rather delicious, so I wouldn't cut her. 

 

Otherwise cutting out the excess will be time the show saves to flesh out the Forsaken they do keep. 

 

17 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

I agree though with Fain as a lurking presence and Perrin's arc probably starting faster, you don't too much. My guess is the story for the first three will be somewhat rewitten as I don't think you have enough for three full seasons. I also don't think you can kill Ishamael twice before he permanently dies the third time as Ishamael so you probably need a level one boss, hence Aginor or Balth. You probably don't shoehorn much besides essential editions into season 1 but season 2 is where big changes.

 

Does Rand even need to face Ishamael at the eye? Between Aginor and Balthamel (who can easily be replaced by no name Dread Lords) and a massive army of Shadowspawn about the massacre the Shienaran army, he's got his work cut out for him. I expect his confrontation at Falme with Ishamael will also be reworked, as it barely made sense in the book. They could reserve Rand's first face off against a Forsaken for Tear and Be'lal, a blademaster power up.  

 

I wonder if Ishamael needs to die at all.  

[mistborn82]

I also think you have to rework some or all of the Female Forsaken as, barring Semirahague who we don't see that much, the are depicted as incompetent or in Lanfear's case jealous and powerhungry. Also by the end, the survivors are all leashed to men. Another reason for Balth to stay dead is because he's depicted as a pervert when he's revived and that's controversy the show definitely doesn't need.

[Polskija]

11 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

I also think you have to rework some or all of the Female Forsaken as, barring Semirahague who we don't see that much, the are depicted as incompetent or in Lanfear's case jealous and powerhungry. Also by the end, the survivors are all leashed to men. Another reason for Balth to stay dead is because he's depicted as a pervert when he's revived and that's controversy the show definitely doesn't need.

I'd rather have less of this kind of censorship and more of the things RJ wrote. 

[Jaglover]

5 hours ago, Polskija said:

I'd rather have less of this kind of censorship and more of the things RJ wrote. 

 

Also are the male forsaken written any better. Two of them defected to the shadow purely because they were jealous of Lews Therin after all. They were all deeply flawed people which was why they were drawn to the shadow. Petty, jealous, greedy and unable to work well with others.

[SinisterDeath]

32 minutes ago, Jaglover said:

 

Also are the male forsaken written any better. Two of them defected to the shadow purely because they were jealous of Lews Therin after all. They were all deeply flawed people which was why they were drawn to the shadow. Petty, jealous, greedy and unable to work well with others.

Isn't part of good writing, is that some people just have shitty motivations? That not every characters needs some grand backstory that led them there?

[Jaglover]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Isn't part of good writing, is that some people just have shitty motivations? That not every characters needs some grand backstory that led them there?

 

Sorry I didn't mean that the writing is poor. Only that the characters of the male forsaken and, usually, their competence, as written, are no better than that of the female. Apologies I worded that poorly.

 

Just to respond to your point though I would have liked to see at least a couple of the forsaken being more along the lines of a tragic hero. Drawn to the "dark side" in this particular world due to understandable human flaws. Rather than all be motivated by power, Sadism and/or petty jealousy  

[mistborn82]

Don't forget too, we only know scant info about their choices, especially the three generals and hardly anything of LTT except hints Rand drops that he wasn't always a nice guy.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Jaglover said:

 

Sorry I didn't mean that the writing is poor. Only that the characters of the male forsaken and, usually, their competence, as written, are no better than that of the female. Apologies I worded that poorly.

 

Just to respond to your point though I would have liked to see at least a couple of the forsaken being more along the lines of a tragic hero. Drawn to the "dark side" in this particular world due to understandable human flaws. Rather than all be motivated by power, Sadism and/or petty jealousy  

Problem with the tragic hero trope, is
A) It's over used today.

and

B) Not every bad guy needs or even should have a redemption arc. Some characters (And real people) are just so evil, that by humanizing them, you're actually helping to propagate their evil. 

Take Aginor
We don't really know much about him, or his motivations. Only that he wanted to do unethical research.
But there's a clear parallel between what he did, and the real life Josef Mengele... and I don't see to many people trying to turn those people into tragic heroes.

Edited October 24, 2019 by SinisterDeath