What to keep, what to drop?

[Guest]

I believe that cutting Min from the TV series would be a very huge mistake that would drastically reduce the overall quality of more than a few plot lines within the WOT television show. Although Min's role in TEOTW is very brief and relatively small, she becomes a more and more crucial character in RJ's books after she meets up with the supergirls. Also, when she finally starts spending nearly every day with Rand, then I believe that she becomes one of the most important secondary characters in the series. 

[Jaglover]

7 hours ago, DragonFairy said:

 

A blatant attempt to inject sex into a story is checking a box too. They're the boxes of what sells and/or makes the show politically correct so as to garner positive media coverage.

 

So, we know there are going to be pillow friends. Why is has to be out the wazoo I can't understand. Having them just to have them does not enhance the story.

 

I have very specific reasons why making certain characters gay or bi will actually hurt the story.

Moiraine and Siuan were pillow friends in their novice days. In New Spring I think it is, it is explained that novices and accepted engage in this activity because of the stress and loneliness they experience during their training and they are basically cut off from the outside world, which includes men. The WoT Companion states that this behavior usually ended when the women were raised to the shawl. So, reference to Moiraine and Siuan's previous relationship is one thing, but to make Moiraine a lesbian is totally inconsistent with her character. For one, she is totally consumed by her search for the Dragon Reborn, to the exclusion of all else. Secondly, her relationship Thom appears to come out of nowhere toward the end of the series, but there are very subtle hints as early as TGH. My hope is the show will make those hints a little more obvious so that it will not seem to come out of nowhere. Making Moiraine a lesbian will just make her marriage to Thom totally incongruous.

 

 

If you add together Moraine being the key character of season 1 (by all accounts) and pillow friends out the wazoo. It seems likely we will be getting Moraine flashbacks including her relationship with Siuan.  I am not entirely sure why making a character a Lesbian rather than Bi-sexual is going to ruin the story personally?. Thom is tacked on at the end and for all we know they are cutting the character anyway. If anything this could enhance the story with Moraine having to deal with the details of the deposing and stilling of her lover while still keeping to the mission to which they both sacrificed so much. Who has the stronger relationship Moraine and Siuan or Moraine and Thom?

 

The rest of the post I fully agree with, you cannot easily make any of the other main characters gay, without distorting the story. Galad could be made gay as well but other than that it is difficult.  

 

[Jaglover]

7 minutes ago, Vambram said:

I believe that cutting Min from the TV series would be a very huge mistake that would drastically reduce the overall quality of more than a few plot lines within the WOT television show. Although Min's role in TEOTW is very brief and relatively small, she becomes a more and more crucial character in RJ's books after she meets up with the supergirls. Also, when she finally starts spending nearly every day with Rand, then I believe that she becomes one of the most important secondary characters in the series. 

Yes I think Min's key role is as being a grounded companion for Rand as he struggles with darkness. I imagine the show is going to keep the girls being off having their own adventures so Min is one of the core elements of the story in the late books and if you are going to have a polygamous it might as well be with three as two so I don't understand arguments for cutting that down on PC grounds.

 

There are a host of characters, and entire chunks of books, you can cut without impacting the core story but I don't think Min is one of them. 

 

[johnnysd2]

7 hours ago, Vambram said:

I believe that cutting Min from the TV series would be a very huge mistake that would drastically reduce the overall quality of more than a few plot lines within the WOT television show. Although Min's role in TEOTW is very brief and relatively small, she becomes a more and more crucial character in RJ's books after she meets up with the supergirls. Also, when she finally starts spending nearly every day with Rand, then I believe that she becomes one of the most important secondary characters in the series. 

 

I agree. I very much want Min in the series, it was just a (hopefully wrong) impression that I had.

[DragonFairy]

19 hours ago, Jaglover said:

 

If you add together Moraine being the key character of season 1 (by all accounts) and pillow friends out the wazoo. It seems likely we will be getting Moraine flashbacks including her relationship with Siuan.  I am not entirely sure why making a character a Lesbian rather than Bi-sexual is going to ruin the story personally?. Thom is tacked on at the end and for all we know they are cutting the character anyway. If anything this could enhance the story with Moraine having to deal with the details of the deposing and stilling of her lover while still keeping to the mission to which they both sacrificed so much. Who has the stronger relationship Moraine and Siuan or Moraine and Thom?

 

The rest of the post I fully agree with, you cannot easily make any of the other main characters gay, without distorting the story. Galad could be made gay as well but other than that it is difficult.  

 

 

Oh, I fully expect to see some flashbacks, or actually all it would take is one , for instance when Moiraine and Siuan see each other for the first time in years in Shienar. But it would be a past relationship, not a current one. Making Moiraine and Siuan have ANY romantic interests whatsoever would go totally against the core of their characters. They are both too committed to their mission of finding and helping the DR to have the time or desire for romantic entanglements. Siuan even says as much to herself in FoH.

 

There is also the fact that Siuan and Moiraine have not seen each for YEARS, and have barely even had any contact. This is an important point because it makes other Aes Sedai suspicious of Moiraine, and of Siuan when she does not reign her in.

 

Moiraine does not struggle with the fact that Siuan has been deposed and stilled (she doesn't struggle with much in fact). She is saddened by it, but she and Siuan knew when they first began the probable consequences  if they were ever found out, and they accepted it (Moiraine thinks this to herself when she learns of Siuan's fate). They both saw it as worth it, and as far as Moiraine is concerned, there is nothing to deal with. She does what is needed to accomplish her goal, and accepts what she must cooly. Remember when she told the boys she would destroy them herself rather than let the Dark One have them? If she had had to resort to that, she would have been saddened by it, and regret the necessity, but it is not something she would have to struggle with emotionally afterward.

 

I hope that explains why I think it would hurt the show for Moiraine and Siuan to be lovers.

 

And of course in my previous post, I was assuming Thom will be in the show. I can't imagine how they could cut him. He is so important to many plots in the story.

 

Yeah, I guess Galad could be gay. What I hope they don't do with Galad is depict him as the heartless beast that Elayne makes him out to be. He is committed to always doing what he believes is right, but he is not heartless. I do think it's cute how he fawns over Egwene. And of course there is the fact that Gawyn won't make his interest in her known because of his devotion to Galad.

 

I still think if they are intent on making one of the main characters gay, make it Egwene. That serves the purpose of having a main gay character if they feel that is necessary, and eliminates her abysmal romance with Gawyn, which always just felt like filler to me.

Edited July 8, 2019 by DragonFairy

[Jaglover]

2 hours ago, DragonFairy said:

 

Oh, I fully expect to see some flashbacks, or actually all it would take is one , for instance when Moiraine and Siuan see each other for the first time in years in Shienar. But it would be a past relationship, not a current one. Making Moiraine and Siuan have ANY romantic interests whatsoever would go totally against the core of their characters. They are both too committed to their mission of finding and helping the DR to have the time or desire for romantic entanglements. Siuan even says as much to herself in FoH.

 

There is also the fact that Siuan and Moiraine have not seen each for YEARS, and have barely even had any contact. This is an important point because it makes other Aes Sedai suspicious of Moiraine, and of Siuan when she does not reign her in.

 

Moiraine does not struggle with the fact that Siuan has been deposed and stilled (she doesn't struggle with much in fact). She is saddened by it, but she and Siuan knew when they first began the probable consequences  if they were ever found out, and they accepted it (Moiraine thinks this to herself when she learns of Siuan's fate). They both saw it as worth it, and as far as Moiraine is concerned, there is nothing to deal with. She does what is needed to accomplish her goal, and accepts what she must cooly. Remember when she told the boys she would destroy them herself rather than let the Dark One have them? If she had had to resort to that, she would have been saddened by it, and regret the necessity, but it is not something she would have to struggle with emotionally afterward.

 

I hope that explains why I think it would hurt the show for Moiraine and Siuan to be lovers.

 

And of course in my previous post, I was assuming Thom will be in the show. I can't imagine how they could cut him. He is so important to many plots in the story.

 

I think there is a difference between someone who suppresses their emotions and someone who doesn't have any. Yes Moraine is very controlled both outwardly and, to some extent inwardly, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have emotions underneath. In assessing her mental state as well we only have three POV chapters after the Great Hunt before her long disappearance. 

 

To say that her and Siuan could be lovers does not mean that they are spending any more time together on the show than in the books. This is obviously a path they want to go down, so, to me, emphasising an element already there, and with a character whose own romance is tacked on at the end, makes more sense than just making someone like Egwene gay, whose relationship intertwines with other events in the books.

 

As for Thom I think he is a good character and hope he is on the show, but they will no doubt cut secondary characters and he serves more of a function in many plot scenarios rather than being someone who the story could not survive without. 

[johnnysd2]

2 hours ago, Jaglover said:

As for Thom I think he is a good character and hope he is on the show, but they will no doubt cut secondary characters and he serves more of a function in many plot scenarios rather than being someone who the story could not survive without. 

 

All that is true, but Thom early on is the "protector" of the kids from the evil Aes Sedai and especially to prevent gentling of Rand. That is very thematically important. Plus he is the vehicle of humor in the books to some extent, but that could be greatly expanded in the bools. I think Thom is actually the character (other than Fain) to be expanded in the books and I could actually see this as sort of a feature role for a known actor, probably a comedic one that wants more of a serious role in a big event show like this.

[Jaglover]

1 hour ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

All that is true, but Thom early on is the "protector" of the kids from the evil Aes Sedai and especially to prevent gentling of Rand. That is very thematically important. Plus he is the vehicle of humor in the books to some extent, but that could be greatly expanded in the bools. I think Thom is actually the character (other than Fain) to be expanded in the books and I could actually see this as sort of a feature role for a known actor, probably a comedic one that wants more of a serious role in a big event show like this.

 

GOT shows us how secondary roles can be elevated by the actors portraying them so that seems likely if he is kept. 

 

It will no doubt be a cast of unknowns for most of the primary characters, with the possible exception of Nynaeve who is a bit older. So the older roles need good established actors to help carry everything.   

 

Found some great fan art for some of the key characters. Hope the casting isn't too far off

 

https://www.deviantart.com/manweri/art/Nynaeve-al-Meara-700551581

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Jaglover

[DemandredFO]

My thought is they either cut Gawyn or kill him in the coup because he serves absolutely no purpose after and little enough before it. One character they will cut or greatly diminish has to be Valan Luca. Some of that is useful but most is just idiocy.

You can cut Thom, not only are his parts some of the best but he could serve as an omniscent narrator type, getting some useful info to characters.

[mandersen]

I don’t know why people keep saying that Thom + Moiraine was out of nowhere or tacked on at the end. At some point early on I realized that RJ was going to give just about every main character a love interest, and since Lan was obviously going to Nynaeve, who would Moiraine end up with? The clues were pretty obvious. No there weren’t sparks flying, but they’re both mature, calculating people. So if fits their personalities to fall in love with their minds rather than in a fit of passion.

I would prefer that they don’t change anything there, but having Siuan as a lover doesn’t need to affect this.

[DragonFairy]

15 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

All that is true, but Thom early on is the "protector" of the kids from the evil Aes Sedai and especially to prevent gentling of Rand. That is very thematically important. Plus he is the vehicle of humor in the books to some extent, but that could be greatly expanded in the bools. I think Thom is actually the character (other than Fain) to be expanded in the books and I could actually see this as sort of a feature role for a known actor, probably a comedic one that wants more of a serious role in a big event show like this.

 

More than that even. He teaches Mat and Rand the skills they use to earn meals and lodging during their voyage to Camelyn, without which the show producers will have to answer how they managed to stay alive all by themselves all that way (recall that both they and Perrin and Egwene went days without even being able to snare a rabbit for dinner). If that was all, they could certainly work around it. But he is also a master at Daes Daemar, and he not only helps to instruct Rand in the game, but he is also very instrumental in ferreting out information for Rand and Moiraine in Tear, and Nyaneave and Elayne in Tanchico.

 

I agree that Thom's role would be better expanded than cut, and a well known actor would help to draw people in. If only the producers read this forum!

[DemandredFO]

Get Sean Bean to do it so he can be in one fantasy series where he doesn't die before the end.

[DragonFairy]

Yeah, really! Such a good actor to kill off so soon.

 

 

[DragonFairy]

On 7/8/2019 at 12:46 AM, Jaglover said:

To say that her and Siuan could be lovers does not mean that they are spending any more time together on the show than in the books. This is obviously a path they want to go down, so, to me, emphasising an element already there, and with a character whose own romance is tacked on at the end, makes more sense than just making someone like Egwene gay, whose relationship intertwines with other events in the books.

 

I get your point about emphasizing an element that already exists. But although the actual culmination of Moiraine and Thom's relationship doesn't occur until Towers of Midnight (not quite the end), the feelings develop well before that; like I pointed out earlier there are hints in earlier books. So to have her and Siuan as lovers while at the same time developing feelings for Thom just doesn't work well to me. It feels awkward. Not to mention there is Siuan's relationship with Gareth, and both women end up bonding the men they love for their new warders. Assuming the show writers keep those two romantic relationships in the show, I think it defeat the purpose of including homosexual relations in the show.

 

Egwene making Gawyn her warder but not being in love with him would serve the same purpose to the story as their romance does, because that bond is just as strong as that between lovers. (He could still be in love with her though.) I have yet to hear anyone say they like their romance.

 

Either way, they would be making someone gay who is not in the books.

[DemandredFO]

If they don't cut Gawyn completely, he won't make it passed the coup because he serves no crucial purpose.

I hope though that making Egwene or some other female isn't just for the sex scenes.

[Jaglover]

10 hours ago, DragonFairy said:

 

I get your point about emphasizing an element that already exists. But although the actual culmination of Moiraine and Thom's relationship doesn't occur until Towers of Midnight (not quite the end), the feelings develop well before that; like I pointed out earlier there are hints in earlier books. So to have her and Siuan as lovers while at the same time developing feelings for Thom just doesn't work well to me. It feels awkward. Not to mention there is Siuan's relationship with Gareth, and both women end up bonding the men they love for their new warders. Assuming the show writers keep those two romantic relationships in the show, I think it defeat the purpose of including homosexual relations in the show.

 

Egwene making Gawyn her warder but not being in love with him would serve the same purpose to the story as their romance does, because that bond is just as strong as that between lovers. (He could still be in love with her though.) I have yet to hear anyone say they like their romance.

 

Either way, they would be making someone gay who is not in the books.

 

Well you are assuming that they are keeping both relationships for Moraine and Siuan and Siuan's in particular would be problematic for modern audiences.

 

As for Egwene you also have the issue that her and Rand are sort of dating, with both worrying that they are not right for each other at the same time (reading between the lines). A number of plot developments flow from that, including Rand's first use of the source, so to make Egwene an outright Lesbian is also changing that aspect of the story, because if she were she wouldn't have been giving Rand the come on.

[CUBAREY]

"Siuan's in particular would be problematic for modern audiences."

 

?

 

"To say that her and Siuan could be lovers does not mean that they are spending any more time together on the show than in the books. This is obviously a path they want to go down, so, to me, emphasising an element already there, and with a character whose own romance is tacked on at the end, makes more sense than just making someone like Egwene gay, whose relationship intertwines with other events in the books."

 

I think it would be truer to the books for Moraine and Siuan to be bisexual, 

 

 

[Jaglover]

5 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

"Siuan's in particular would be problematic for modern audiences."

 

 

I like how RJ's relationships are true to life with their variety, and it is undeniable that her and Bryne have a bit of a role playing dominant, submissive thing going on. From him forcing her to perform domestic tasks to her letting him spank her on multiple occasions. 

 

As I said, I liked it in the books as human sexuality is varied, and often complicated, but almost certainty the most problematic relationship for a show that is going to have female empowerment as one of its themes. 

 

Faile Perrin is rather different as it only happens the once and Faile was beating Perrin up at the time. 

[DemandredFO]

If they get that far, I assume they'll drop the whole Tylin diversion as that has rape, kidnapping and stockholm syndrome in it. I don't know how they'll handle Ebou Dar if it gets that far but won't be the same as in the books.

[mandersen]

If they leave the Mat / Tylin relationship in there it wouldn’t be too hard to make it less rapey. As it is, I feel like a lot of that can be explained by Mat as an unreliable narrator. For all his talk about supposedly not being able to stop her, it’s clear he has the quickness and fighting abilities that he would be able to fend her off with next to no effort. It’s also clear that despite complaining about it, he’s a more than willing participant*. I mean, one of the reason Mat is a favorite character is that he’s unable to admit things that are clear to the audience. Just unfortunately in this case it’s not so obvious to the reader. To me I just interpret it in a way that makes me OK with it, and that is that Mat is enjoying the experience immensely (besides the embarrassment of everyone knowing) and just tells himself (and us) otherwise. Portray it that way on screen and it becomes much less problematic. 

 

*I’m saying all this with the caveat that if this situation was gender reversed, it would absolutely be terrible and none of these arguments would apply. 

[DemandredFO]

Which is among the problems with that interlude also somewhere along the line Mat develops stockholm syndrome. Also one of the themes is the inability of some male characters to hurt women so while he has the quickness and skills to escape, he lacks the will.

[DragonFairy]

On 7/11/2019 at 12:35 AM, Jaglover said:

I like how RJ's relationships are true to life with their variety, and it is undeniable that her and Bryne have a bit of a role playing dominant, submissive thing going on. From him forcing her to perform domestic tasks to her letting him spank her on multiple occasions. 

The only part of that I see as being a problem is the spanking, which they would cut anyway.

[mandersen]

On 7/12/2019 at 11:14 AM, DemandredFO said:

Which is among the problems with that interlude also somewhere along the line Mat develops stockholm syndrome. Also one of the themes is the inability of some male characters to hurt women so while he has the quickness and skills to escape, he lacks the will.

You want to see Stockholm syndrome, look among the damane. Mat? I’m not buying it. He lacks the will for sure, but because he’s having lots of sex with a woman he’s attracted to, not because he’s affraid to hurt women. He bundles up Tuon after a bit of a brawl, right? And I’m sure she’s quicker than Tylin, no matter how many hands she seems to have. And later we see him turning Joline(?) over his knee and spanking her till his hand is sore. 

Anyway, my main point is if they include this plot line they can do it in a way that isn’t a #mattoo. I agree the optics aren’t great, but I interpret RJ’s intent as a prolific chaser of women getting some of his own medicine. If anything they’ll have to be more careful at how they portray Mat’s flirtations up to that point.

[DemandredFO]

We'll just have to agree to disagree

[Sunrose]

Even though it's not very relevant for the plot I secretly hope we'll see some short flashbacks to the age of legends and  that we get to see a glimpse of what the world looked like back then. The glory days so to speak. I would also like to see Manetheren(see Ellisande die maybe) and Malkier in its glory days.

 

As far as homosexuality goes, I think we'll get to see some "pillow friends", some ladies of the Red and Black ajah is my best guess.