Tainted Minds - A Black Tower Mafia Game: Game over - Town wins

[Cory Caboose]

If I had to pick one now, it'd be Ley, but that's *** PENDING CHANGES *** and i'm not really satisfied with that as a final answer either

[Cory Caboose]

will be working until late tonight, so i'll be in and out

[Clovdyx]

To anyone around:

 

3 most confident reads? can be wolf or villager, just want get a snapshot of what everyone's thinking

 

Cory

BFG

Niniel is what my notes say.  I'm going to pretend that's not the case and swap her with Iron (who's next).  

 

 

Mafia, obviously.

[Clovdyx]

 

the "do not lynch" list

 

BFG - most obvious villager in the game, relentlessly trying to figure things out, distrustful of just about everything in a [genuine] way, I think is just way out of her general wolf range

 

Niniel - been both straightforward with her approach and is thinking about things in her own unique POV. very comfortable in thread. there's a lot of stuff that i know to look for when she's a wolf and it hasn't shown up here.

LedZepMan - really liked his d1 content, especially first half. has lagged a little since, but not holding it against him, they tend to be a function of time and not alignment.

Sooh - like LZM, not holding the later d1 absence against her; i can remember a few villager games where she got caught up with real life. her d1 posts were all great, liked her content a lot since she's returned to the thread.

 

 

For the love of TFB, hallowed by thy touchdowns, can you explain to me what content of his is good?  Looking at his ISO, the only thing that stands out to me is he liked that wall SK posted, which I didn't understand (and he then proceeded to ignore when I asked him about it).  Everything else is fluff and one liners I don't find the least bit telling (admittedly, in either direction).

 

I'm not ready to condemn him, but I really don't see how anybody can have him as anything but null based on content.

[Clovdyx]

Ley - been very straightforward and i believe his explanation for a lack of involvement. hope he gets more involved today, but the only knock against him is volume and it's not something i consider super important i guess.

 

Mostly irrelevant to this game, this is hilarious to me and I hope you know why.

[LedZepMan]

 

 

I don't feel GB's townread on Leyrann is relevant to Leyrann's alignment at all. Don't think it spews him either way; it was an answer to a question very close to his death, Ley had the same "wolfread" that he did, I don't think it really matters much.

I'm more interested in the Clov town read than the Leyrann one.

Go on...

 

U havent stepped out of engaging much that doesnt directly concern you. I dont see any real thinking behind your reads.

 

What are your three MOST confident reads right now? can be w or v, just what you are most confident in

Clov--has relentlessly game solved and been flexible in his reads without being flimsy about it

Leyrann--has been laser-focused on the game, and while not overly active, has been paying close attention, asking good questions, and drawing logical conclusions from them. I don't see any rational stretches in his thinking to support a push

Cory--has mostly chattered and spent the majority of his game solving pushing me because he thinks my town games have better linear thinking than I have shown in this game, tries to convince others to vote for me using ATE (come on, guise, pleeeease???) rather than laying out a rational case for me being a wolf, ie, lacks the linear thinking he accuses me of.

 

And that's what I've got as strongest reads--two towns, and an OMGUS vote for being pushed when I dont' think the logic behind it makes any sense, and the pusher did not even answer early questions. The townies thing you have done is pull off of me to tie the trains for awhile, and that could be show, but even still, my wolf read on you is largely contingent on how you've pushed me, so

Alright, so Ben basically throws up here to give a town read on Clov. No points given, just his interpretation. It's like Ben was trying to signal Clov "Hey, look here, in your teammate." Now, for the proof.

 

I'm pretty sure lurkers have been crushed in recent games, but that's besides the point.

 

As it relates to SK, I'll gladly lynch him if he doesn't do something to make me think he's worth keeping around. I just don't think it's worth everybody jumping on him when essentially half the game has yet to make a meaningful contribution. If he's town, you're absolutely right to say it's anti-town...but that doesn't mean he can't be. It wouldn't be the first time town has claimed scum, for some bizarre reason.

 

 

And not going to turn this into a gun debate, but I'd much rather have access to one and never need it for self defense than be in a situation where I need one and don't have it. I don't know any countries that outlaw kitchen knives. Or machetes.

As to the bold Clov, why did you put Ben at L-1 when you previously stated you would gladly lynch SK? Contradiction number 1.

 

 

 

About the naming someone thing? Is everyone supposed to do that?

 

General thought: game seems to be a bit more complex than usual for me, but this is my third full game, so I'm still pretty new to mafia I guess.

 

Thoughts on other players? Don't really have much yet. Other than curious as to why SK would vote for self and want others to vote too. Still trying to get a feel for folks.

This is an open game. Which means it is potentially a breakable game. Open games are games where the setup is known. How many town, how many scum, and their respective roles. Refer to page 1. The goal of the town or rather the cops is to figure out what flavor they are and then reveal their innocent/guilty. The goal of the mafia framers is to obfuscate the issue. The traitor is a player that wins with the mafia, but is not in their chat. And the mafia does not know whomst the traitor is. I am a fan of open games. In fact I am dogged with some of them and live to find the most optimal way to play as town in the setup. Do the cops claim? Probably not since their is no doctor, but when should they claim. The mod already made it hard for the scum with a night zero. the two sane cops are working away. You might say, but what about the two framers and insane cop? I say meh. They have to choose precisely the same person and the cops are persons they can choose from as well makes it harder for scum to win. So one must do drastic things to win this mountain of a game...Hence the self vote.

 

 

About the naming someone thing? Is everyone supposed to do that?

 

General thought: game seems to be a bit more complex than usual for me, but this is my third full game, so I'm still pretty new to mafia I guess.

 

Thoughts on other players? Don't really have much yet. Other than curious as to why SK would vote for self and want others to vote too. Still trying to get a feel for folks.

This is an open game. Which means it is potentially a breakable game. Open games are games where the setup is known. How many town, how many scum, and their respective roles. Refer to page 1. The goal of the town or rather the cops is to figure out what flavor they are and then reveal their innocent/guilty. The goal of the mafia framers is to obfuscate the issue. The traitor is a player that wins with the mafia, but is not in their chat. And the mafia does not know whomst the traitor is. I am a fan of open games. In fact I am dogged with some of them and live to find the most optimal way to play as town in the setup. Do the cops claim? Probably not since their is no doctor, but when should they claim. The mod already made it hard for the scum with a night zero. the two sane cops are working away. You might say, but what about the two framers and insane cop? I say meh. They have to choose precisely the same person and the cops are persons they can choose from as well makes it harder for scum to win. So one must do drastic things to win this mountain of a game...Hence the self vote.

I like this. I actually understood 95% of what you said.

 

And you clarified something for me as well.

Ignoring the multiple factual inaccuracies of it, what do you like about it? As far as I can tell, he's suggesting that he's trying to find the optimal way to play it by self-voting. In what universe is that ever going to be the optimal way for town to play it?

 

And I'm pretty sure the bold is another scum claim, so yeah...I'm at a loss.

And yet you didn't vote for SK. Your vote was on Ben. SK made a good point for an irrational seeming play, and you were quick to jump in with mouth, but not you're money. Scum ping.

[LedZepMan]

Continued...

 

 

 

Vote Count

SK (2) - Dice, Ben

Marsh (1) - Sooh

Clov (1) - LZM

Ben (3) - Clov, Cory, SK

Cory (1) - Ley

So a train on Ben starts to build. Eventually Clov hops off here, with some vague BS about not wanting to lynch Ben. Clov is freaking train hopping here. This is where I believe Scum!Clov to have picked up at Ben being the traitor.

[V]SK[/v]

 

This is actually less about him and more not wanting to vote Ben (n0 town). Outside of him, my Do Not Lynch pool is probably Niniel, BFG, DJ, and Sooh in that order. Maybe throw in Nolder if I'm feeling froggy

 

 

[v] Cory[/v]

Ok this is too desperate even for me.

 

[v]Ben[/v]

Heh. His push on Cory is why I unvoted him. The other reads he gave in his explanation post seemed reasonable enough to me, and his justification of Cory seemed honest enough that I don't think he's the best lynch at this point. I'm not sure I would lynch Cory right now, but I don't see any issue with HIM pushing Cory.

Not what you said earlier, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Not a contradiction essentially, but this feels like an answer that came in retrospect. It's ambiguous enough that it could be plausible.

 

 

 

 

That vote was made under the impression that "breaking the game" meant trying to, well, destroy it, which was incorrect, and he since unvoted.

In other words (sorry, but I was managing 3 things at once), he had an incorrect impression of what was happening. And with the impression he had, that vote is logical.

Don't care, his stated reason for his vote isn't why I have a problem with it.

Eh?

 

His reason for the vote isn't why you have a problem with it? What does that even mean?

 

You have a problem with a vote for another reason than somebody's reason for it? Only other way I see one could have a problem with a vote which is unrelated to the person giving it is if that vote is on a scum mate.

And that's part of why I said it did terrible things to me. At first, I read as that's why he had a problem - and was ready to crucify him for it. Then I read it again and realized he said isn't why, and I was confused. Then I thought about it with his previous post and realized it actually makes a lot of sense.

This whole exchange was in regards to Ben voting SK for Game Breaking. Now we add a third while new reason for Unvoting Ben. I don't like it.

 

 

The question is "can we do better?"

A question I aim to answer

I'm not thrilled about being on a train that's comprised entirely of my null reads, but I still would rather go with SK over a 50/50 on Ben.

 

I think I would be lying if I said this isn't at least partly driven by not liking how SK has approached today.

Says he doesn't want to vote Ben again. Shortly before putting him at L-1.

[LedZepMan]

Continued Again.

 

 

Where :( = why are you consolidating votes almost a day and a half before deadline

I don't expect you to believe this - because let's be honest, it's me - but I genuinely thought deadline was yesterday afternoon instead of today when I voted and expected the game to be mostly quiet yesterday (because, well, I've played mafia on DM before).

 

But tbf if I had known we had a day and a half, instead of several hours, I probably still would have moved it. I didn't have a better candidate than him at the time, I didn't think Ben was the right place to be, and I didn't imagine I'd get any fun information by throwing another YOLO vote when I expected most of my question marks to be inactive.

BFG called him out. This reeks of pure BS to me.

 

 

I'm amending my "would rather lynch Ben than SK but wouldn't fight for SK" to "would vastly prefer to lynch Ben over SK, and will probably make that known as we approach EoD"

 

GLGL friends

Is this still about Ben or about SK?

 

Alternatively, is there a reason NOT to lynch SK?

Pushing the "lynch SK narrative".

 

 

A FORMAL INVITATION

 

Cory, Nolder & LedZep invite you all cordially to join the Gentled Ben Wagon of Friendship and Tolerance™

 

Will take place at the "Tainted Minds" gallery at The Black Tower. It will begin with drinks & appetizers, followed by a formal lunching ceremony.

[v]Gentled Ben[/v]

 

I'm just here for the free apps.

I don't think either of you have done anything you couldn't do as scum, but although that makes me paranoid it doesn't make you scum

 

And so far I ~haven't felt the things I tend to when Chris is scum, so it could be that this is town! Chris and it's just been so long since we've been t/t I don't recognise it

Chris is playing a mafia game confirmed.

 

[unvote]

This is what initially set me on Clov during my reread last night. Clov is toying with Cory here. There's no way you push a lynch on SK majority D1, then pull this crap if you actually feel justified in your choice of lynch candidate. This was for yucks.

 

 

 

 

Vote Count

SK (4) - Dice, Marsh, Ley, DJ

Marsh (1) - Sooh

Ben (6) - Cory, Nolder, LZM, Nini, BFG, Clov

Cory (1) - Ben

Ley (1) - SK

 

Deadline is 1 hour 20 minutes.

[v]Ben[/v]

 

I'll let Chris do his 'thing' :p

[v]Ben[/v]

 

I'll let Chris do his 'thing' :p

And finally, with 1.5 hours to DL, once BFG voted and took the lead train to Ben, Clov finally decided to go for it, after pushing to lynch SK most of D1.

 

With that, I am gonna go ahead and [v]Clov[/v]

 

Also, just so y'all know.

 

N1-Clov M

 

Annnnnnnnnnnnd, Hardclaim Cop

[Cory Caboose]

i liked... #421, #136, #90, #86, #81, #38, #29.

 

I'm williing to rethink it, but generally he doesn't avoid frays / confrontation, is willing to make enemies in a way that wouldn't serve his purpose as a wolf, sorts through the early content in a way I felt was reasonable for how a villager would approach it, he had the best response to SK's shenanigans (IMO), various other small tidbits

[Cory Caboose]

Also apparently he's cop

[Cory Caboose]

what was your n0 LZM?

[LedZepMan]

Now, the only question I have left for myself is, did scum use one of their frames on Clov N-1...........?

[Cory Caboose]

Nevermind it's Leyrann

[Clovdyx]

I genuinely appreciate the effort.  I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on your hardclaim.

 

 

I am going to destroy your entire argument in one sentence.

[LedZepMan]

Ley-T

[LedZepMan]

I genuinely appreciate the effort. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on your hardclaim.

 

 

I am going to destroy your entire argument in one sentence.

Is it, I'm new, I don't know what to do?

[Clovdyx]

No, it's that you argued I figured out he was the traitor.  One sentence:

 

Ben is dead because I chose for him to die.

 

 

I realize you don't know me.  That's fine.  Cory, BFG, and Sooh will assure you - if I'm mafia, there is 0.0% I figure out he's my missing teammate and help lynch him anyway.  If you had argued I lynched him thinking he was vanilla town, that would be plausible...except I have no reason to switch there - I can stay on SK and let it go rand, unless you're going to argue I'm teammates WITH SK and hopped to save him (again, they will point out why that's never the case.)

[LedZepMan]

Cuz Joe Dirt already used that one up guy.

[Cory Caboose]

[LedZepMan]

No, it's that you argued I figured out he was the traitor. One sentence:

 

Ben is dead because I chose for him to die.

 

 

I realize you don't know me. That's fine. Cory, BFG, and Sooh will assure you - if I'm mafia, there is 0.0% I figure out he's my missing teammate and help lynch him anyway. If you had argued I lynched him thinking he was vanilla town, that would be plausible...except I have no reason to switch there - I can stay on SK and let it go rand, unless you're going to argue I'm teammates WITH SK and hopped to save him (again, they will point out why that's never the case.)

You didn't do squat but buss him at EoD.

[Clovdyx]

That was actually what I was getting at earlier with Sooh that I said I'd explain later.  Anybody that is familiar with my play (spoiler: those three have seen me play, spectate, advise, mentor, etc. a ton) will tell you I do not unnecessarily bus.  If you're going to argue I knew that Ben was the traitor, you're arguing I am deliberately hurting my team for literally NO advantage.  

 

Sooh had me as a town read and was feeling worse about me after I, for all intents and purposes, hammered Ben.  I don't expect to be cleared by it - I didn't know he was the traitor, and as mafia, I wouldn't have known that either.  However, in order for me to switch there, I would have needed SOME sort of incentive.  

 

Literally the only thing I gained is NOT killing SK, who have the game wouldn't have missed and nobody would have pushed me for lynching.  

[Clovdyx]

 

No, it's that you argued I figured out he was the traitor. One sentence:

 

Ben is dead because I chose for him to die.

 

 

I realize you don't know me. That's fine. Cory, BFG, and Sooh will assure you - if I'm mafia, there is 0.0% I figure out he's my missing teammate and help lynch him anyway. If you had argued I lynched him thinking he was vanilla town, that would be plausible...except I have no reason to switch there - I can stay on SK and let it go rand, unless you're going to argue I'm teammates WITH SK and hopped to save him (again, they will point out why that's never the case.)

You didn't do squat but buss him at EoD.

 

 

Go back and look at the vote count.  It was 5-5, with Sooh missing, SK off wagon, and Ben off wagon.  I could have stayed on SK and kept it 5-5 and it would have randed; Ben coming in completely takes the possibility away and sinks it.

 

 

And to answer your other point about why I unvoted, I already mentioned it.  All of my nulls were voting SK.  All of my top townreads were voting Ben.  

[Shitsure Kamimashita]

 

D1 Final Count

SK (5) - Dice, Marsh, Ley, DJ, Ben

Marsh (1) - Sooh

Ben (6) - Nolder, LZM, Nini, BFG, Clov, Cory

Ley (1) - SK

 

Not Voting:

 

would scum split their vote? I like ironeyes or ley for scum here. Or do they follow cory to get town points. hmmmmmmm. If anyone did follow cory it would be clov. This is probably town auto win. Cops could out and make things even more spicy. Ironeyes said something about why he plays bad. I forget what it was being scummy not scum, but going through with the lynch anyways because reasons. It probably makes him win out over ley imo. I await for lzm to do something as well.

 

n0 guilty lzm

n1 innocent niniel

[BFG]

Channels inner Vos :P

 

Also

 

 

 

 

 

[Shitsure Kamimashita]

lzm nooooooooo