By what mechanism did Min bond Rand

[Rooish]

I feel like this is one of the most weird and out of the blue parts of the series. 

 

Yes I know Aviendha and Elayne were doing the weaving, and set the Warder bond around Min and Rand. But as far as I know, this is the only time a non-channeler has been able to have a Warder, and the only time someone has been able to create a Warder bond between two people that aren't themselves.

 

Did anyone else find this moment weird? How exactly did it work? Was this kind of bond ever mentioned as possible anywhere else in the series? 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

They hung a lantern on it in the scene but that was the only explanation, that they were making a bond that would work with him and non channeling min. I don't think there's any real explanation beyond that.

[Mystica]

Well, there are a lot of firsts in this scenario.

 

1. There's never been someone like Rand before Lews Therin.

2. There's never been a situation where Aes Sedai would ever even consider sharing their Warder with another.

 

3. The Talent of figuring out new weaves and ways of doing things with the Power was very rare and Elayne was the one that had this Talent (and the natural curiosity of trying to figure things out that came with it)

 

4. All 4 of them were completely ok with the proposition of sharing Rand (including Rand)

 

 

We know from the Aiel that placing a Weave on others is perfectly possible (the first-sister bonding from the Aiel). It is from this that the whole idea of bonding Rand to Min comes from btw.

 

 

I'm rushing things a bit as I'm at work, but that's basically the gist of things.

 

 

Remember that just because something hadn't been done doesn't necessarily mean it càn't be done. Sometimes it's just as simple of 'it' never have been wanted or needed or considered before.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I think the part that's most out of the blue to me is a non channeler having a warder.

[dexterryu]

I always took it as a cross between the Aiel "sister" bonding and the AS warder bonding.

[Mystica]

nothing ever said that the Bond had to be between a channeler and a non-channeler. that's just how it's always been 'as far as anyone knew'. Which could just as easily mean they didn't know than that it wasn't possible.

 

The fact that the Aiel had a system that allowed non-channelers to bond through the aid from channelers means that at least sometime in the past the knowledge must have existed.

A lot of knowledge of what was possible with the Power or how to do things with the Power was lost to the Aes Sedai over time.

 

Personal agenda's, secrecy, greed, jealousy, possessiveness or the simple passage of time in which things weren't done. All of these can account to the loss of knowledge over the course of 3000 years.

[dexterryu]

nothing ever said that the Bond had to be between a channeler and a non-channeler. that's just how it's always been 'as far as anyone knew'. Which could just as easily mean they didn't know than that it wasn't possible.

 

The fact that the Aiel had a system that allowed non-channelers to bond through the aid from channelers means that at least sometime in the past the knowledge must have existed.

A lot of knowledge of what was possible with the Power or how to do things with the Power was lost to the Aes Sedai over time.

 

Personal agenda's, secrecy, greed, jealousy, possessiveness or the simple passage of time in which things weren't done. All of these can account to the loss of knowledge over the course of 3000 years.

 

To go along with this, several things that the "current day" channelers were doing surprised the forsaken. Bonding was one of them. Unraveling weaves was another.

 

While volumes of knowledge were lost during the breaking and over the course of the 3rd age, one of the themes of the series seemed to be that new weaves could be discovered/created... it was often a matter of having the need to go along with the skill/talent to accomplish it.

 

One could argue that the Age of Legends became a victim of their own success in a way. They had progressed so far that they had certain ways to do things to such a degree that they tended not to deviate.

[Sabio]

The reason so few new things had been discovered in Rand's age was few Aes Sedai were willing to risk themselves trying out new things.  Nyn after healing Logain was told how dangerous experimenting was.   So there wasn't a lot of incentive for an Aes Sedai to risk themselves trying to discover something new.  

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Here's the interview database for warder bonding

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=warder%20bond'

 

Only one allusion I could find to indicate that a non channeler could get involved, and that appears to refer to min.

 

I don't think he started or wrote much of the series considering that anyone but aes sedai bonded warders. There's nothing to indicate that's going to happen imo until the four way goes beyond what I believe was originally intended. That whole part of the story, like the concept of pillow friends as opposed to any other homosexual or bisexual relationships, spankings as a way of life, fetishistic b&d themes that run throughout the books (multiple instances this or that character bound and bent backwards or in some other classic fetish pose, leasing/collaring, etc.), strikes me as something from the author's personal fantasy life and not something that seemed a realistic part of the world he created. Romanticism, like ayn rand e.g.

 

I believe the intent may have been for Rand to bond the three as his warders in the beginning. But then Rand started collecting bonds, and adding three more would have lost any special significance.

 

Idk, maybe this new thing was part of the renaissance of weaving and newly discovered wonderful talents that the superkids machined, but it didn't feel that way to me.

[jsbrads]

You know how Min can feel Rand inside her head?

Yeah, that space doesn't exist in her mind. Because if it did, the adam should work to allow a woman who can't be trained to feel a damane, without allowing her the ability to do other stuff like punish or control the damane's Channeling.

[Orderofolde]

It was only slightly different than a regular bond which Aes Sedai can do, and the Ashamen have their own version for bonding their wives so they know everything is fine with them when they were gone recruiting or doing Taim's or Rand's bidding.

[jack of shadows]

@mrs. Cindy gill,

"A non channeler having a warder."

I always considered the incredibly beautiful 4-way bonding between rand and his lovers as an unusual wedding ceremony, in my opinion,it's the best scene in winter heart,rand wasn't min's warder, certainly not in the traditional aes sedai warder bonding,it was something akin to an aiel adopting a new family member weave, sure,rand protected and cared for min, and she considered herself rand's first line of defence but it had nothing to do with a non channeler having a warder.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

The text and interviews and the majority people who spend way too much time puzzling this stuff out at theoryland believe it was a warder bond, that needed some modification to include min, because she's a non-channeler.

 

I believe the authors did intend Rand to be warder to each of the women.

 

They may also have intended it to be a marriage ceremony but the bonding was based on the warder bond. Which left them with finding a way to include min.

 

It's difficult for me to find a lot of merit in the romantic relationships, but that's just imo.

[jack of shadows]

If robert jordan intended rand to be warder to each of the women,he did an extremely poor job planning it,during a two and half years of wheel of time's journey,rand,min,elayne and aviendha were in the same place at the same time twice i.e.caemlyn palace and field of merrilor, three times if we include thakan'dar valley post last battle.

To be honest,rand wasn't much of a warder lol.

 

Incidentally,i have no problem accepting that the 4-way bonding weave was a modified warder bond,i'm just saying that rand didn't operate like a warder at all, in fact,we learned from alanna's disastrous bonding that rand was completely out of her control.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

He was a crappy warder and RJ was a poor planner, granted

[Faroresdragn]

 the only time someone has been able to create a Warder bond between two people that aren't themselves.

 

Well Myrelle only has warders with bonds that she didnt create herself. She passed Lans bond to nynayve with little ceremony. that part of it didnt seem that weird to me.

 

You know how Min can feel Rand inside her head?

Yeah, that space doesn't exist in her mind. Because if it did, the adam should work to allow a woman who can't be trained to feel a damane, without allowing her the ability to do other stuff like punish or control the damane's Channeling.

The bond with an adam isnt exactly the same as the warder bond, since it makes the damane feel things, and it apparently kills any man who is subjected to it, or at least makes them go mad. They describe it more as forcing the woman into a circle, and seizing control, which is something that can explicitly only be done when everyone involved can channel. so its different.

 

ALSO, 50% of everyone involved in warder bonds cant channel (excluding the occasional aes sedai/ashaman combo). And it always talks about how warders can feel their aes sedai, whether to tell if their in danger (feeling their emotions) or feeling their pain directly, along with orientation. And we get explicit proof of this from both Birgitte and Gareth bryne, who describe how they as non-channelers can feel elayne/suians emotions and what not. 

 

SO, the warder bond definitely would allow a non-channeler to feel the emotions of their bonded partner, but since the adam is akin to linking in a circle, it would make sense for that not to work with non-channeling women.

[Orderofolde]

I always took it as a cross between the Aiel "sister" bonding and the AS warder bonding.

I did as well, especially since right around this time Avi and Elayne and the wise ones bond as sisters.

[Sabio]

Never truly understood the purpose of the aiel sister bonding.

[Faroresdragn]

 

I always took it as a cross between the Aiel "sister" bonding and the AS warder bonding.

I did as well, especially since right around this time Avi and Elayne and the wise ones bond as sisters.

 

I dont think it was the sister bonding, since Elayne mentions at least once that she cant feel Avihenda nearly as well as she can feel rand. She cant feel her emotions in as detailed a way as she can rand, and I dont think she can tell her location either. Rand and his girls seem to have something much closer to the warder bond since they describe it the same way nynayve, suian, etc describe the bonds with their warders.

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

"I never truly understood the purpose of the aiel sister bonding".

 

Robert jordan needed a way to include min in a 4-way bonding weave so saidar became an imperative part of an aiel's adoption ceremony,the whole adoption scene was just a precursor for the 4-way bonding scene. (winter's heart prologue).

[Sabio]

@sabio,

"I never truly understood the purpose of the aiel sister bonding".

 

Robert jordan needed a way to include min in a 4-way bonding weave so saidar became an imperative part of an aiel's adoption ceremony,the whole adoption scene was just a precursor for the 4-way bonding scene. (winter's heart prologue).

 

*nods*  But really seemed just tossed in as it seems there was really no reason for Aiel to this.  I think it would of worked better as a part of the Aes Sedai warder bond since that already involves someone who can channel and someone who can't.  

[jack of shadows]

@faroresdragn,

"I don't think it was a sister bonding.."

 

I re-read the 4-way bonding yesterday, winter's heart chapter 12,and there's an explanation how they did it,i.e. elayne and aviendha linked,creating a weave based on the weaves used in the sister-adoption ceremony,next,they laid it on each of the three of them,then,elayne extended it to rand,changing it(on rand's end) into a warder bond,basically,this new weave was an amalgam of a modified aiel weave and a warder-bond weave.

[wotfan4472]

I think that RJ meant for the three girls to be Rand's Warders, not the other way around. It was just poorly done because there was no way Rand could witness the adoption of first sisters since Saidin was not involved. The only option was if Rand witnessed the Ashaman bonding process on their wives, which we know he did not. They may do it better in the T.V show if they include it, or have Rand be shown how to bond from the Ashaman perspective instead of this scene.

[jack of shadows]

@wotfan4472,

"i think that RJ meant for the three girls to be rand's warders,not the other way round."

 

this is exactly what happened in the last battle,"i need you,aviendha,i need all three of

you to watch,to be my hands--my heart--during this fight.i am going to send min to egwene.

something is going to happen there,i'm certain.elayne will fight in the south,and you...

i need you in the valley of thakan'dar,watching my back".

[wotfan4472]

It was a bit funny when they thought he would be their Warder! They never considered the fact it was the other way around!