What is your LEAST favorite part about the books? (no major spoilers)

[Faroresdragn]

Im sure that this topic has been posted here at some point, but I don't see it anywhere recent, so here it goes.

 

It's safe to assume that everyone here likes the WoT, but nothing is perfect. And if there is even something small that bugs you about the books, it probably really got on your nerves over the course of 14 long books.

 

So be it something about Jordan/Sanderson's writing style, some annoying character trait, or the way the paperback covers looked, what was the thing you disliked most about the Wheel of Time?

 

But no major spoilers please, so if the thing you hate the most is how the book ended, or a plot hole in some major storyline element, try and be discreet about it if you can.

 

 

 

Myself, I didn't like how many bloody names there were. Even in a world where the one power exists, the most unrealistic/fantasy thing about Randland was that with the millions and millions of people in the world, no two people had the same first name. like assuming maybe a few billion people live in the world, you'd think there'd be at least two Matrims, or two Egwenes. I mean of course it would be stupid for a writer to have two of his important characters both named "john", but for the love of God, we meet sooooo many minor, insignificant characters that all have to have names and be reintroduced later.

 

I guess the real issue wasnt that there were no repeat names, since I realized after thinking about it that thats basically the same in any story. The real issue was a combination of the fact that there were way to many semi-important characters who were named, and that none of the names were real names. Like Rand? alright. Mat? Cool. But then I get names like Tamra, Tarna Yukiri, Sumeko, and then there were two sisters named Saerin and Sarine that were always involved in the same plots. I mean some of the names just seemed like random bunches of letters, and I was expected to be able to remember who everyone was and the plot theyre involved in. Like sooo many times it would be a new book, and a character would react to another character showing up that I know Ive read about before, but Id have to use context to even remember if they were friends or enemies because I had no idea who they were supposed to be. That was just annoying.

 

So yeah, that and Aes Sedai being assholes in general were my least favorite parts. what about you guys?

Edited April 27, 2017 by BFG

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Too many named characters. Sort of a related note. Too many unfinished little and big plot lines.

[Ryrin]

The last book.

[BFG]

I've edited the thread title

[BFG]

But I think I can honestly say that I've never thought about the way the names are unique lol

[jack of shadows]

@mrs. cindy gill,

"too many unfinished little and big plot lines.

would you care to elaborate?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

@mrs. cindy gill,

"too many unfinished little and big plot lines.

would you care to elaborate?

Without spoilers, a name.. a thousand names dropped, a brief bio, a weaving of a thread into the pattern, and then letting it dissipate without another mention. So many times I'd stop reading and just go... why? What purpose did that serve except to up the word count and troll the fans?

 

As for unfinished or glossed over subplots, there are hundreds and they've been beaten to death elsewhere so I won't bother.

 

I'd have been happier with the main stories of the few dozen people that actually were memorable and important being told from beginning to end without the cast of thousands murking everything up. But it's still among my favorite series and that's just how it is.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Mrs. Cindy Gill

[DojoToad]

Too much wanting to vomit every meal...

[Faroresdragn]

The other thing I hated was how he felt so compelled to explain things over and over. Like every single book he would mention how aeil followed Jiitoh, and how Aes Sedai had ageless faces, or the reasons aeil were afraid of large bodies of water or wierded out by trees, or the rules of Telaranrihod.

 

There are other things I cant remember off the top of my head, but he would keep going over basic world building stuff again and again, and wouldnt go back over stuff that I might actually forget, like what someone just did or how someone got to a location, etc. I mean ive seen this done somewhat in other series, but theres no way that Jordan could think anyone would be able to start this series anywhere in the middle, so why does he have to keep reexplaining things that anyone who had read the previous books would know? Like, "its book 10, i KNOW that aeil dont mind being naked in public!"

 

Just for an example off the top of my head, in Harry Potter, Rowling didnt come out and explicitly explain in every book that some pureblood wizards were racist against wizards with nonmagical blood. or mention explicitly every time it came up that it was against the law to reveal magic to muggles. She either assumed you wouldnt forget, or would show it if she wanted to reemphasize it.

 

did that bother anyone else? when he mentions in book 10 that the aeil dont find shame in nudity, when we learn that in book 4, i just feel like he thinks im stupid, and cant keep track of the world hes building.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Faroresdragn

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

that did not bother me. i think he did it so people could start the series anywhere and, if interested, go back and read it all. but I like verbose authors as long as I can follow the plot.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Mrs. Cindy Gill

[jack of shadows]

@mrs. cindy gill,

i formed a search party to find adelin who vanished without a trace

after fires of heaven,still,without any luck,i really really liked her.

[JamesBrown]

Every description of a woolen dress was "stout Two Rivers wool".

 

Something about always leading with 'stout' picks at me.

[OlwenaSedai]

Myself, I didn't like how many bloody names there were. Even in a world where the one power exists, the most unrealistic/fantasy thing about Randland was that with the millions and millions of people in the world, no two people had the same first name. like assuming maybe a few billion people live in the world, you'd think there'd be at least two Matrims, or two Egwenes. I mean of course it would be stupid for a writer to have two of his important characters both named "john", but for the love of God, we meet sooooo many minor, insignificant characters that all have to have names and be reintroduced later.

 

I guess the real issue wasnt that there were no repeat names, since I realized after thinking about it that thats basically the same in any story. The real issue was a combination of the fact that there were way to many semi-important characters who were named, and that none of the names were real names. Like Rand? alright. Mat? Cool. But then I get names like Tamra, Tarna Yukiri, Sumeko, and then there were two sisters named Saerin and Sarine that were always involved in the same plots. I mean some of the names just seemed like random bunches of letters, and I was expected to be able to remember who everyone was and the plot theyre involved in. Like sooo many times it would be a new book, and a character would react to another character showing up that I know Ive read about before, but Id have to use context to even remember if they were friends or enemies because I had no idea who they were supposed to be. That was just annoying.

 

So yeah, that and Aes Sedai being assholes in general were my least favorite parts. what about you guys?

That's only true if you only think of Western names, or modern names. Remember. the Randland continent encompasses what would in our world be similiar to the entirety of Europe, Asia and Africa put together, or at least Europe, Asia and Northern Africa (the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere are dark-skinned aswell, and the Seanchan have elephants, which as far as we know they don't have in Shara). If we absolutely have to look at the Randland world as similiar to ours. 

 

A lot of those names - like Yukiri and Sumeko - seems Japanese-ish, or at least belieavably Asian. Birgitte is a rather common name in my native country Norway, and in Northern Europe in general - she was probably from this area in "our time", she also has blonde hair and fair skin, for example. Egwene is similiar to some old Gaelic names. (Same with Almindreda, Bodewhin etc. - or at least Old English) A lot of the names make sense if you realize that they live in a continent where many cultures co-exist and meet up at places like Tar Valon, which explains why there are so many different names. 

 

As to what part annoys me the most - hmm. I don't dislike the middle books as much as many seem to - for example, I rushed through the Bowl of Winds book, and didn't find it boring, same with the others after it, really. I am at book 11 now (read the series up until book 9-10 when I was like 13, so I have re-read most of it and am reading the rest for the first time) and didn't really think of the previous books as being boring or slow-paced.

 

What annoys me most about the books is probably how a lot of people seem incapable of learning from experience - like, how Mat always commits the same faux pas with women and then complain that they are irrational for biting his head off every time, how the AS never seem to learn humility even after the umpteenth demonstration of how unsuccessful their arrogant "I know best"-attitude is with most issues, and likewise how the AS keep saying things are impossible even after seeing it's not - such as the Kin living hundreds of years or the possibility of healing stilling and gentling. How Perrin always completely loses his head and rushes out whenever Faile is in trouble, even though she in most aspects (including ruling / diplomacy) is far more competent than him, how the Shaido keeps on refusing to believe that Rand is the Car'a'carn even after Coulain dies (and thus, obviously, is not him) and after more and more of the prophecy is fulfilled. Keep in mind that the Aiel, or at least the Wise Ones, know his father was Aiel, so it's not entirely true that he's purely an outlander.

[jack of shadows]

@olwenasedai,

"How the shaido keeps on refusing to believe that rand is the car'a'carn even after couladin dies..."

You are missing the point here,whether or not rand was the true car'a'carn meant absolutely nothing to sevanna,after all, she was the shaido true leader,not couladin,who was nothing more than a disgruntled peacock,sevanna,was a less powerful,less elegant and more stupid version of lanfear,it's a classic case of a completely flawed leader leading his/her

Subjects to a disaster.

As usual,robert jordan dragged this story arc for far too long,rand and his asha'man

Could and should have annihilated the entire shaido clan at dumai's wells.

[Ryrin]

Every description of a woolen dress was "stout Two Rivers wool".

 

Something about always leading with 'stout' picks at me.

 

LOL

 

Me too.

[Sabio]

Just the whole how Nyn/Elayne/Egwene view/treat men throughout the series but especially first six books.  Mat, Thom, etc.. help them out and always seem to get treated like dirt. 

[OlwenaSedai]

Just the whole how Nyn/Elayne/Egwene view/treat men throughout the series but especially first six books.  Mat, Thom, etc.. help them out and always seem to get treated like dirt. 

Likewise with how Mat, Thom etc. see the women as basically children unable to hold their own (even though they can all channel) and don't trust their judgment.

 

Mat seems to not realize channelers can take out fighters who are much stronger than them, but unable to channel. He believes Aviendha and Birgitte can hold their own because they can also fight in the "proper" way, but constantly seems to forget the other women can channel.

[Sabio]

 

Just the whole how Nyn/Elayne/Egwene view/treat men throughout the series but especially first six books.  Mat, Thom, etc.. help them out and always seem to get treated like dirt. 

Likewise with how Mat, Thom etc. see the women as basically children unable to hold their own (even though they can all channel) and don't trust their judgment.

 

Mat seems to not realize channelers can take out fighters who are much stronger than them, but unable to channel. He believes Aviendha and Birgitte can hold their own because they can also fight in the "proper" way, but constantly seems to forget the other women can channel.

 

 

Exactly, that's one thing I wish RJ would of done differently was the whole man/woman interaction and behavior towards the other.  Also another curious behavior the main characters seem to have.  All the men have to be forced/reluctantly take command where all the women have the attitude they should be in charge.

 

Mat is the exact opposite of the Aes Sedai/wonder girls behavior.  Where they constantly have to learn the hard way that channeling won't protect them from everything.  Mat hates the power so much he has to grudgingly admit it's useful.  But when the fighting happens, the general in him does immedietly know the advantage of having channelers.  He sees the advantage it has in a war, but like many he sort of has the attitude that facing an opponent with a sword etc.. is sort of honorable, where just blasting someone from a distance is cowardly.  But when it comes to war, he uses anything he can.

[Faroresdragn]

Exactly, that's one thing I wish RJ would of done differently was the whole man/woman interaction and behavior towards the other.  Also another curious behavior the main characters seem to have.  All the men have to be forced/reluctantly take command where all the women have the attitude they should be in charge.

 

 

 I always figured that this was the fallout from the Breaking, where men were generally distrusted, and the world fell from a society of equals (or maybe even a patriarchal society) to a mainly matriarchal one, since all the most powerful people in the world (aes sedai) were from a society made entirely of women, it just seems like women naturally taking charge was just how the world was. 

[Faroresdragn]

Likewise with how Mat, Thom etc. see the women as basically children unable to hold their own (even though they can all channel) and don't trust their judgment.

 

 

 

Mat seems to not realize channelers can take out fighters who are much stronger than them, but unable to channel. He believes Aviendha and Birgitte can hold their own because they can also fight in the "proper" way, but constantly seems to forget the other women can channel.

 

I agree they baby them a little too much, but it kind of made sense. There was never an important situation where channeling got everyone out quick and easy, since they were usually facing other channelers. I mean, as they say many times in the series, theres a reason why Aes Sedai have Warders, even though they are basically the cockiest mfers alive. there's just many situations where you need good old physical strength/skill to get you out of a sticky situation. As evidenced by all the times people like Thom and Mat got channelers like Nynaeve and Elayne out of situations where they were pretty much screwed. especially with Mats immunity to the OP, but thats besides the point.

[jack of shadows]

@faroresdragn,

"...this was the fallout from the breaking

When men were generally distrusted..."

Why?why distrust 95 percent of the men in randland for something they had nothing to do with?

Is it even rational?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Well, when the basis of a lot of western misogyny is a myth from genesis about eve, I would say it doesn't matter if it's rational.

 

I'd also say I don't see and misandry in WoT outside of the red Ajah, and as they deal with male chanellers, that is rational.

 

I think what some find distasteful is the lack of the level of misogyny that most of us are accustomed to irl.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Mrs. Cindy Gill

[Faroresdragn]

@faroresdragn,

"...this was the fallout from the breaking

When men were generally distrusted..."

Why?why distrust 95 percent of the men in randland for something they had nothing to do with?

Is it even rational?

Why in the real world were >95% of women generally distrusted and treated as second class citizens or even semi-property until relatively recent times in most cultures? And also proclaimed as sources of sin and corruption at least in many monotheistic religions? Historically, women have been treated alot worse in the real world then men are treated in Randland, and real world women werent even responsible for reshaping the entire world beyond recognition, killing billions of innocents, and destroying all modern civilization as we know it and sending us back to the stone age. 

 

So the way I see it, the men in Randland got off hella easy. You dont really need a rational reason behind a cultural mindset. Many times its just an attitude that develops over time. Like how human beings are ashamed/ostracized when they are naked in public even when it's warm enough for us to be comfortable naked outside. The only rational reason for us wearing clothes is because we dont have the fur or blubber other animals have to protect us from the elements or maybe to protect us from injury (like pads or boots), but that wont stop most societies from being offended by it or saying it's wrong for you to be nude in public when its sunny and 72.

 

But again, if in the past for some reason a nudist colony had caused all civilized nations to be literally ground into dust for a straight century, then there would be a completely rational reason for it.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Faroresdragn

[Sabio]

Umm this isn't about the real world.  Rj pretty much had gender equality for most things In the book.  Though not sure many of his governments would function well. like a women's circle and village council.  Seems to me it would be like a city having two city councils. 

 

it's about Nyn/Elayne/Egwene seeming having the opinion that men are dumb and if the wonder girls aren't in charge then everything will be wrong or messed up.  They mostly take the bully approach to things. But there is a strong tone in the series, even with the aiel, that women meddle and men mess everything up.

[Faroresdragn]

There is some level of gender equality for the most part i guess, at least when it comes to them interacting day to day or having roughly the same career opportunities maybe, but you cant say that the world isnt matriarchal on the whole. And the villiage council and the womens circle is the prime example of that. the villiage counsil, made up of men, is described as having little to no actual power, and that the womens circle just lets them believe that they have a say in things. its the womens circle you go to when youre in trouble. 

 

There are more powerful women then there are powerful men, with Aes Sedai being all women, and the amerlyn being essentially the most powerful person on the planet. And even beyond channeling, women are more often than not more highly ranked than men: the wise ones among the aeil dont answer to clan chiefs, and are above blood fueds, and although all women who can channel are forced into the wise ones, thats not a requirement, and many who cant channel have more authority than those that can. also among the aeil men arent even allowed to own property. and the one societal advantage that men would usually have over women, being able to fight or be soldiers, is shared with women among the aeil. not to mention the "men dont have a say in the polygamal marriage" thing. In the Sea Folk,only women can have the most important positions, with the highest male position being not very important from what i could pick up. the master of blades didnt seem to be in charge of much besides trade, and even then he could probably be overridden in trade by the mistress of ships. The Seanchan are ruled by their Empress, who rules absolutely. The countries where youd think men would be the most dominant would be the borderlands, where their lives are based on constant war, and unlike with the aeil, the women dont fight. and even there the men lots of times defer to women, and women are supposed to be fierce and strong and saldea at least is ruled by a queen, although im not sure if thats a set thing like in Andor. 

 

definitely most if not all societies lean toward women being in charge. i was just saying there was a definite reason for that. jack said was it even rational for the men to be put down because of the breaking, and i used the real world as an example that people can be made less in society for much less rational reasons then for all intents and purposes ending the world. or that cultural attitudes dont need a rational basis.