[Basic C9++] Murder Mystery Mafia D5

[Niniel]

Something got wrong. To Clov and Manbat. This is an example:

 

shad is town because cory is town and cory is town because he's my frond

If i really wanted to give a reason to justify my read I'd probably say something like it's because I think Shad's posts about playing differently and not doing meta bombs rang villagery to me and cory once told me that the longer he goes without talking about the game the more likely it is he's a wolf and he jumped right into it

Afaicr the tell hasn't failed me yet thanks cory

 

Read the first line - no reasons. The other line, I don´t understand. And is it a way to just find something in the thread to back up the first no reason line?

 

 

Manbat, I don´t have you as either mafia or town. I have a hard time understanding your posts. I think it´s because you post a lot at a time and you mix fluff with game content and then you talk to people about stuff from other games that I have no idea about. I know I have had this problem with you before, but I don´t know if we have played together or if it was in a game I read. It´s probably more about me than you. 

[monstrman]

Ths only thing that might be true about the bro club is that I am likely to give Cory until EoD1 to be villagery before i start nailing him to the wall

[monstrman]

and sometimes i might lynch all his bros first

 

i also explained my REAL read of cory and am also kinda annoyed at all the accusations of bias being thrown around

[monstrman]

like dpr your read of me sounds like "Im upset that these guys are being bros so I'll act like they're ALL scum"

 

I mean, it's kinda villagery but it's REALLY annoying

[Clovdyx]

Was going to play mafia. Whatever little I care I had is now gone. If you all thought I was being empty and/or slanking before, just wait.

 

Niniel - thank you. When I read that, I assumed the top line was a joke (as I'm almost positive he had already established his read on them prior to that, and it wasn'tbecause they like each other)

 

He's made several posts about both cory and shad since. How do you feel about those?

[Clovdyx]

I'll say this, since it's actually game related.

 

I didn't "give Seph a pass". I admitted that specific post looked bad. Then i weighed it against every post he mad that didn't. There were a hell of a lot more of those, and knowing Sephs tendency to make things a far bigger deal than I think many other players would, that post wasn't so incredibly awful to offset them.

 

If you expect people to erase a strong townread because of one or two posts...well, let's leave it at "I don't know what to tell you

[Niniel]

Was going to play mafia. Whatever little I care I had is now gone. If you all thought I was being empty and/or slanking before, just wait.

 

Niniel - thank you. When I read that, I assumed the top line was a joke (as I'm almost positive he had already established his read on them prior to that, and it wasn'tbecause they like each other)

 

He's made several posts about both cory and shad since. How do you feel about those?

 

I have nothing about that in my notes. I would have to go back and read and see what I can find. 

 

I'll say this, since it's actually game related.

 

I didn't "give Seph a pass". I admitted that specific post looked bad. Then i weighed it against every post he mad that didn't. There were a hell of a lot more of those, and knowing Sephs tendency to make things a far bigger deal than I think many other players would, that post wasn't so incredibly awful to offset them.

 

If you expect people to erase a strong townread because of one or two posts...well, let's leave it at "I don't know what to tell you

 

Remind me, what is your view on Seph right now?

[DPR]

 

I don't feel like I've been acerbic. The handjob remarks could be viewed as drifting out of bounds, so I'll apologize for those and refrain from future use.

 

It's not acerbic to question stances or comments, or to look at things from a different pov if I don't agree with game solving techniques.

 

For clarification and because I want to move past this and get back to the game:

 

 

There is no bro club

 

If I thought monstr or clov or seph or sooh were wolves I would lunch them into oblivion (or at least try to) - ask any of them, I've done it before

 

I still evaluate every little thing they do

 

Familiarity of play allows you to have a higher degree of confidence with your reads on someone; goal for me is simply to try to have the best reads

 

Bro club are all nodding at this.

 

 

 

 

A long-standing pet peeve is when implications of bias come pouring out for no reason

 

Everyone knows I'd lunch my own mother if she was being wolfy. No mercy 4 wolves

 

Evidently, not everyone.

 

I had to hold back from leading with "cool story bro".

 

 

 

 

Your implication was not my intent, so that's on you. I asked because I was curious what you meant. Any idea that this is me hunting you down is on your end - if I were hunting you down, you would know it.

 

I voted you because at that point in my reread, I thought you were the most likely wolf. I don't think that any more, which is why I'm not following it up. I'm not particulary sold on you, but I feel there's better avenues today

 

 

I posted my comment because of my previous game dust-up with Shad. 

 

That wasn't so hard, now was it.

 

 

This and the "boy club" accusations are what is annoying me. I'll try to give context: maybe three games ago for me on here was a game called Dragon Reborn (it was probably over a year ago, but I don't play much anymore in general) where I was a villager and amongst other people, Shad, Zander, Darthe & Niniel were all also villagers.

 

I quickly sort of realized Shad and Zander were villagers because I am familiar with their playstyle in both roles and felt confident with their content. Not long after making these reads, I was informed I was running a "boys club". Was a bit annoying for me then (probably because I literally just lynched Shad in a previous game called World's End because I didn't feel he was playing his villager game) but mostly because I really felt I was right. Darthe and Niniel got added quickly to that group, but I think typically people only remember when the "aggressively, game-solvey villagers" click.

 

I believe very strongly that the village, like the mafia, is a team that requires co-ordination, agreement and understanding in order to work and functionally lynch wolves. So I believe heavily in "team spirit" and I've seen too many villages quickly break down into paranoia and resentment when the environment is poor.

Yes, some of us know eachother quite well (as you do when you play with someone or know someone for 3+ years) and that's going to inform our reads and we are going to feel and communicate naturally with them. But please do not mistake that for bias. I will go hard at anyone I feel is a wolf and will fight for anyone I feel is a villager. It doesn't matter if their name is monstr or killashandra or dogmother or whoever.

 

Does that make sense?

 

 

 

It does make sense. And on re-read, I may have been a little acerbic after all. 

 

We are agreed that breaking the village down results in paranoia. It cost the town last game, as I've discussed re Seph, and I am not eager to repeat that.

 

I'm not a big believer in team spirit - I've seen it used against the team too many times to trust it. I'm work from a "everyone is guilty until proven innocent" perspective and try to spot the little lies and inconsistencies that give positions away. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it makes more sense to me. I genuinely do not understand the "clear villagers" approach - again, it just seems too easy to manipulate.

 

As far as he boys cub goes, I think you may be a little blind to it. You stated above that "The game is about eliminating people that have an alignment that's not your alignment", and when you have a group that appears to favor each other, it makes it look like none of them are your alignment. 

 

I'll try to point out examples in a non-combative way when they come up if that works for you.

[Niniel]

 

Was going to play mafia. Whatever little I care I had is now gone. If you all thought I was being empty and/or slanking before, just wait.

 

Niniel - thank you. When I read that, I assumed the top line was a joke (as I'm almost positive he had already established his read on them prior to that, and it wasn'tbecause they like each other)

 

He's made several posts about both cory and shad since. How do you feel about those?

 

I have nothing about that in my notes. I would have to go back and read and see what I can find. 

 

I'll say this, since it's actually game related.

 

I didn't "give Seph a pass". I admitted that specific post looked bad. Then i weighed it against every post he mad that didn't. There were a hell of a lot more of those, and knowing Sephs tendency to make things a far bigger deal than I think many other players would, that post wasn't so incredibly awful to offset them.

 

If you expect people to erase a strong townread because of one or two posts...well, let's leave it at "I don't know what to tell you

 

Remind me, what is your view on Seph right now?

 

 

Continuing on this. I skimmed his iso and I don´t see him making several posts about them. I didn´t read it in context though so maybe some were answers to them. What posts did you have in mind?

[Songstress]

 

 

OK, so. Summary of thoughts as of right now.

 

2. Darthe - At least 75% of the time I want to lynch Darthe regardless. It might not be a bad move. :unsure: OK, I kind of like some of his posts. Let's call it "not today".

 

3. Shadory (cory caboose & Shad_) - I feel pretty good about these two and expect to firm that up within the next day phase or so.

 

4. SoJames (Sooh & E James Todd) - Have we scared off James? Engagement is good, seems to be pursuing leads aggressively. Gut feeling is probably town, she has fooled me before but I'm not too worried about her just now.

 

5. ed2funy - mehhhhh. Not sure I can read him. Too much drunk posting. He's probably OK.

 

6. Tigraine (Hallia) - Zero posts. Waiting for Godot.

 

7. seph - Some of the things he's said realllllly remind me of his approach in Fight Club. I was iffy on him at the time I noticed them in Fight Club, but he ended up as town. So, thinking he might be town here?

 

8. Niniel - Potentially willing to vote here. Her catchup notes felt really... superficial? Cautious?

 

9. DPR (DreadPirateRoberts) - I haven't seen anything from him that worries me yet, and I have seen at least one post that struck me as being exactly what I'd expect him to say as town. So, slight town lean although I wouldn't trust the pirate as far as I can throw him.

 

10. Kronos the Wolfeh (WolfbrotherKronos) - Willing to vote. Whoever mentioned he really hates being mafia, that is also what I recall. I would have expected him to pop in to at least give us a heads up if he was going to be absent. He was a lot more active in our Old West Mischief game, even early on.

 

11. Clov (Clovdyx) - I wouldn't normally feel comfortable town reading him D1 but I don't know that he'd bother doing what he's been doing as mafia. Let's call it cautiously optimistic.

 

12. Killashandra - I want to give her time to settle in and learn the game and see where it goes. Nothing has struck me as off just yet, which is a good sign.

 

13. manbat - Monstr is one of those people that I feel like I ought to be able to read better, but I never feel quite confident that I can. Gun to head I'd say leaning town, but very unsure. I would trust Town!Cory's read on him 95%.

 

 

Not willing to lynch atm: SoJames, Shadory, Clov... possibly Ed, Darthe, DPR, Seph. Most willing to lynch Kronos or Niniel today.

 

 

Half of these look like you're riding the fence...

 

Will you elaborate on Darthe and Seph? Why not Darthe today? And, I'm seeing Seph in a similar light, but I'm also seeing things here and there are different. What's your read on that?

The alarm just went off 8 minutes ago, brain not quite awake yet.

 

I need to make and drink some coffee, and then I can go pull a few quotes for examples of stuff Darthe has said that I kinda like, and try to look a little closer at Seph.

[DPR]

 

 

OK, so. Summary of thoughts as of right now.

 

2. Darthe - At least 75% of the time I want to lynch Darthe regardless. It might not be a bad move. :unsure: OK, I kind of like some of his posts. Let's call it "not today".

 

3. Shadory (cory caboose & Shad_) - I feel pretty good about these two and expect to firm that up within the next day phase or so.

 

4. SoJames (Sooh & E James Todd) - Have we scared off James? Engagement is good, seems to be pursuing leads aggressively. Gut feeling is probably town, she has fooled me before but I'm not too worried about her just now.

 

5. ed2funy - mehhhhh. Not sure I can read him. Too much drunk posting. He's probably OK.

 

6. Tigraine (Hallia) - Zero posts. Waiting for Godot.

 

7. seph - Some of the things he's said realllllly remind me of his approach in Fight Club. I was iffy on him at the time I noticed them in Fight Club, but he ended up as town. So, thinking he might be town here?

 

8. Niniel - Potentially willing to vote here. Her catchup notes felt really... superficial? Cautious?

 

9. DPR (DreadPirateRoberts) - I haven't seen anything from him that worries me yet, and I have seen at least one post that struck me as being exactly what I'd expect him to say as town. So, slight town lean although I wouldn't trust the pirate as far as I can throw him.

 

10. Kronos the Wolfeh (WolfbrotherKronos) - Willing to vote. Whoever mentioned he really hates being mafia, that is also what I recall. I would have expected him to pop in to at least give us a heads up if he was going to be absent. He was a lot more active in our Old West Mischief game, even early on.

 

11. Clov (Clovdyx) - I wouldn't normally feel comfortable town reading him D1 but I don't know that he'd bother doing what he's been doing as mafia. Let's call it cautiously optimistic.

 

12. Killashandra - I want to give her time to settle in and learn the game and see where it goes. Nothing has struck me as off just yet, which is a good sign.

 

13. manbat - Monstr is one of those people that I feel like I ought to be able to read better, but I never feel quite confident that I can. Gun to head I'd say leaning town, but very unsure. I would trust Town!Cory's read on him 95%.

 

 

Not willing to lynch atm: SoJames, Shadory, Clov... possibly Ed, Darthe, DPR, Seph. Most willing to lynch Kronos or Niniel today.

 

Half of these look like you're riding the fence...

 

Will you elaborate on Darthe and Seph? Why not Darthe today? And, I'm seeing Seph in a similar light, but I'm also seeing things here and there are different. What's your read on that?

The alarm just went off 8 minutes ago, brain not quite awake yet.

 

I need to make and drink some coffee, and then I can go pull a few quotes for examples of stuff Darthe has said that I kinda like, and try to look a little closer at Seph.

 

 

 

Fair enough.

[Cory Caboose]

I'm not a big believer in team spirit - I've seen it used against the team too many times to trust it. I'm work from a "everyone is guilty until proven innocent" perspective and try to spot the little lies and inconsistencies that give positions away. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it makes more sense to me. I genuinely do not understand the "clear villagers" approach - again, it just seems too easy to manipulate.

 

As far as he boys cub goes, I think you may be a little blind to it. You stated above that "The game is about eliminating people that have an alignment that's not your alignment", and when you have a group that appears to favor each other, it makes it look like none of them are your alignment. 

 

Understood. I'll keep it in mind. I'm fine with giving you space to do [your thing] if you give me space to [do mine].

[DPR]

 

I'm not a big believer in team spirit - I've seen it used against the team too many times to trust it. I'm work from a "everyone is guilty until proven innocent" perspective and try to spot the little lies and inconsistencies that give positions away. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it makes more sense to me. I genuinely do not understand the "clear villagers" approach - again, it just seems too easy to manipulate.

 

As far as he boys cub goes, I think you may be a little blind to it. You stated above that "The game is about eliminating people that have an alignment that's not your alignment", and when you have a group that appears to favor each other, it makes it look like none of them are your alignment. 

 

Understood. I'll keep it in mind. I'm fine with giving you space to do [your thing] if you give me space to [do mine].

 

 

 

Agreed.

[Sooh]

Niniel, who would you like to push more at the moment?

 

Also eagerly awaiting Tress post.

[DPR]

I'll say this, since it's actually game related.

 

I didn't "give Seph a pass". I admitted that specific post looked bad. Then i weighed it against every post he mad that didn't. There were a hell of a lot more of those, and knowing Sephs tendency to make things a far bigger deal than I think many other players would, that post wasn't so incredibly awful to offset them.

 

If you expect people to erase a strong townread because of one or two posts...well, let's leave it at "I don't know what to tell you

 

I started to iso and look for the quote, but I'm out of time.

 

It's not that I expect you to ignore a player's record of posting, or the read you develop from it. But if a player makes a move that looks bad to me and another player admits that it looks bad, but doesn't see a need to follow it up, I consider that suspicious. To me it looks like narrative building. 

[Clovdyx]

Continuing on this. I skimmed his iso and I don´t see him making several posts about them. I didn´t read it in context though so maybe some were answers to them. What posts did you have in mind?

 

 

Including before and after that

 

 

 

 

 

also i see you shad

 

i will make proper reads of you slot accordingly

 

aorn I have you polarized to cory villa shad wolf but we'll see as the game progresses

 

 

if we add cory and shad's posts together we can probably volume clear them so I can justify my d1 read of the slot

 

inb4 i'm terrible at this game

 

 

shad is an obvious villager

 

 

So on further review, you're mostly right and i'm mostly wrong.  There were a decent amount of posts where he was talking TO Cory and/or Shad.  Not sure if that was making me think he had more about them or what.

a

lso i see you shad

 

i will make proper reads of you slot accordingly

 

aorn I have you polarized to cory villa shad wolf but we'll see as the game progresses

 

[Kaylee]

Official Vote Count

 

Manbat (1): Killashandra

 

Ed (1): Niniel

 

Kronos (3): Shadory, Manbat, Clov

 

Niniel (2): Ed, Darthe

 

Tress (1): SoJames

 

Darthe (1): DPR

 

Not Voting (3): Songstress, Tigraine, Seph

 

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

 

Deadline set for Monday April 17th at 8pm MST

 

  

[Clovdyx]

 

I'll say this, since it's actually game related.

 

I didn't "give Seph a pass". I admitted that specific post looked bad. Then i weighed it against every post he mad that didn't. There were a hell of a lot more of those, and knowing Sephs tendency to make things a far bigger deal than I think many other players would, that post wasn't so incredibly awful to offset them.

 

If you expect people to erase a strong townread because of one or two posts...well, let's leave it at "I don't know what to tell you

 

I started to iso and look for the quote, but I'm out of time.

 

It's not that I expect you to ignore a player's record of posting, or the read you develop from it. But if a player makes a move that looks bad to me and another player admits that it looks bad, but doesn't see a need to follow it up, I consider that suspicious. To me it looks like narrative building. 

 

 

But there was no follow up necessary for me.  He voted her, and he immediately made a post saying he read it wrong and moved off.  Either you believe he's being genuine there, in which case that's an incredibly pro-town thought process, or you don't.  I'll concede that my take very realistically could have been shaded by my pre-existing townread (i.e., I think he's town, so I'm going to treat his posts with more authenticity than someone I'm scumreading), but I think it's more likely he looked at it again/thought about it some more as town than he went to double check to make sure he could properly frame it  as scum  - or got an earful from a teammate in QT in the 1 minute it took him to move off.

[Kaylee]

Shad: I was only shoo successful in Frozen because my team was acting scummy and not working together. I put pressure on them early and pushed for their lynched when they didn't change. It was the only way I could think of plaguing to help us win. It wad fun though.

[Clovdyx]

Niniel -  Right now, still pretty firmly townreading Seph.  He was leading the game in posts until recently, which I'm not sure he would be able to do very easily as scum - especially while producing content that I both see coming from him (being able to fake his natural thought processes and reactions so effectively, basically) and am able to accept, myself.  There is a little bit of tinfoil from both the Killashandra thing and his post about your reads list yesterday.  AFAICT he never responded to Shad's question about it.

 

That being said, both of those are very minor things for me and am still very comfortable having him as a townread.  

[Cory Caboose]

I don't think it was alignment indicative either way, but that's just me. If he's a villager, he reread what ed said and realized it made no sense and unvoted. If he's a wolf, he reread what ed said and realized it made no sense and unvoted.

[Cory Caboose]

In fact that biggest glean I got from that whole encounter was that Sooh is a villager. #timingtells

[Clovdyx]

In fact that biggest glean I got from that whole encounter was that Sooh is a villager. #timingtells

 

Sooh was already a villager. #oneupping

[Cory Caboose]

 

 

 

 

Also can you bring some examples of said behavior?

I do not have anything I can quote directly to you to point to why. I am newer not only to mafia but the site as well, so I am less familiar with most folks. He just stood out to me. Wedon't have much to go on yet so I am going with my gut on this one.

WE WHO, [v]Killadhandra[/v]

I usually try to let new people play... but that's kinda a big slip..

[unvote]

[V]killashandra [/v]

 

Eh?

 

To me this is grasping at straws. 

 

We could be everyone, not necessarily mafia. I don't know why you think it's a slip tbh. 

 

 

I'm not sure I touched on this post earlier but I pretty much locked Sooh in as a villager after this post, less so for the actual content and more for the event, when it happened, and the speed of her reaction to it.

 

Basically ed makes a "slip" accusation at killashandra that wasn't a slip whatsoever.

 

According to seph (and I think this is perfectly believable from a town!seph POV, but that's irrelevant) he glazed over what ed was saying, thought it was real, then after reacting read it more fully and realized it wasn't a real slip of any sort hence the unvote.

 

So why is Sooh's response important?

 

Sooh replies to seph ~2 minutes after seph's posts and responds to something else between the two on the same subject. So she's active & present in the thread and these are her direct unfiltered reactions to events.

 

I have problems believing Sooh would so quickly clear the air as a wolf, or at least have the presence of mind to immediately address a miscommunication / misunderstanding. Sooh makes calculated decisions as a wolf typically to see if something is going to be in her benefit or not. There's a lot of worlds here (if Killa is a villager, there's a mild chaotic push going against her that at the very moment of the event might seem like it won't immediately defuse / if Killa is a wolf it's a push on a wolf on poor context and while it can be "cleared up" I rarely see wolves so quickly come to the defense of a wolfbro without due consideration).

 

Point being: the fact that Sooh immediately and genuinely responded to the event is suggestive that she's just playing from her head the way she does as a villager. Not sure that'll make sense to anyone else, but these are the type of things that are really important to me.

[Cory Caboose]

 

In fact that biggest glean I got from that whole encounter was that Sooh is a villager. #timingtells

 

Sooh was already a villager. #oneupping

 

 

I didn't have her securely as a villager previous to that post