BlueCon 2012 - Snape vs. Verin (Spoilers from both series)

[Leala]

 

Before you start reading this thread, please note that there are spoilers from both the Harry Potter series and the Wheel of Time.  Make sure you have read ALL OF THE HARRY POTTER SERIES and at least all of THE GATHERING STORM in the Wheel of Time.

 

Now.  I chose these two, because they are what I like to call triple agents.  They present themselves to the heroes as on their side, while also reporting in to the villains, but really, they're on the villain's side to help the heroes' side, but for their own reasons.  Confusing, yes?

 

I'll present a new question each day for us to discuss.  If you get behind and need to do some make-up, I'm completely fine with that.

 

Day 1:

 

What was your first impression of Snape and Verin respectively?  (For Verin, stick with The Eye of the World, since it came out before New Spring.)

 

[michellem]

Verin, I immediatly trusted her; I loved that she was a bit shifty and that she hid behind the Brown Ajah stereotype on purpose!

 

Snape, I hated it from the beginning

[Turin Turambar]

Snape was evil but marvelously so. To see that he was actually trying to help Harry was a big surprise.

 

Verin was the best in that she was always letting just that little bit of mischief in her personality out. That she chose such a dramatic way of revealing her secrets was very cool.

[blank]

Verin,  I was not a massive fan of her at first, I genuinely thought she was sneaky. Then I changed my mind later on and loved her. Then TGS happened and I discovered both reactions were correct.

 

Snape I thought he was mean but he was obviously too mean so I knew something had to be going on there...

[Leala]

I liked Verin when I first met her.  She was the first Brown we ever met, and I think she set the archetype for their Ajah's personality type.  But she was also very alert and active.  She did seem a little off, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it.  But I could tell her heart was in the right place.

 

I hated Snape from day one.  xD  I still hate him, too.  He just annoys me.  But in the first book, we got to see that there was a side to Snape that we couldn't quite grasp until it was too late.

[Nyanna al'Meara]

I DESPISED Snape right fom the beginning - howeeever, he kinda grew on me in the last few books, and I admire him for being one of the bravest characters in fiction I know *nod*

 

Verin's true identity came as a shock - I loved her from when we meet her first. Still do, may she rest in the Light :P

[Aiel Heart]

Verin I liked. I thought she was sharp, found it amusing that she got Suian and Moirane all riled up by discovering their little secret. and, as Leala said, I thought her heart was in the right place.

 

Snape... I was actually somewhat neutral on. I didn't hate him but didn't like him at all either.

[lolguy26]

snape was and is one of my all time favorites cuz he's such a BadAss

 

vernin- i had a suspension, but Tgs thing was still a shock  

[Daruya]

First impressions? Well, I intensely disliked Snape in his first appearance. I liked Verin in hers but indulgently thought of her as the "typical befuddled Brown" (thought I think that is a charade and stereotype that many of the Brown sisters took advantage of).

 

I think both Snape and Verin ended up getting more than they bargained for when they fell into the "wrong" crowd. In Verin's case, it was due to, IIRC, her trying to winkle out the Black Ajah. I don't think she ever wanted to become a darkfriend but did so to save her life and further her purpose of defeating the Black Ajah and the Dark One. Snape did seek out that crowd and I wish I knew why.

 

I had a few suspicions about Verin during the course of the first however many books. However, when she neglected to poison/drug Cadsuane when they were discussing Rand, my mind was eased because I thought for sure at that point she was definitely NOT a DF. To find out later that she was . . . well, it was a bit shocking.

[Red2111]

Verin, i liked from teh beginning but also dismissed as a side character. it was both a shock to see her exposed as a DF, and to learn of how important she was to the events in the series. i cried for her death and feel a sense of pride for her that i dont feel for any other character in the series. she is my fav AS and will remain so.

 

 

Snape. I hated from the beginning, i grew to hate more after Sirius was killed, was not shocked at all that he killed DD, could not wiat for Voldemort to kill him, think his so called sacrifice is blown way out of proportion, cannot for the lfie of me figure out what the prat has such a large fan base and grudingly cried for his death.

 

i thought and still think he was a selfish git who diserved the bed he ended up laying in, and have absolutley no respect for the man at all.

 

though i wil say, in the series, he is the best character due to his complexity.

[Leala]

Nice responses!  I love how they're all varied.  :3

 

Day 2:

 

When did you first start to realize that there was something more to Snape and Verin?

[Red2111]

hmm.

 

with Verin i didn't suspect a thing, her being BA came as a great suprise, 2nd only to Sheriam (and yes Sheriam was a major shock and depressed me tbh)

 

 

with Snape, the 3rd Movie actually gave it away. but as far as the books, i suspected something in HBP when he didn't aim to kill Harry or abduct him at the end; but i shrugged it off as him following orders just to kill DD and leave Harry for later.

[Daruya]

You are given your first hint with Snape in CoS when he saves Harry during the Quidditch match. With Verin, the hints were always there. From her seeing in Egwene what nobody else saw (potential Dreamer; why else give her the dream ter'angreal?) to always popping up where you don't always expect to see her. Although, another early hint was when she told Rand et al that Moiraine sent her and it was revealed later that Moiraine had done no such thing. That introduced that first niggling doubt because, as we all know, "Aes Sedai cannot lie."

[RandA lThor]

My first impression of Snape was that he was a jealous teacher who would be a huge pain in the entire series.

For Verin, it was just a nice Brown sister who was a little bit more attentive.

 

When she was doing something to the sisters captured by the Aiel, I started getting suspicious of Verin.

For Snape, it was during the first book when I thought he would be there with Voldemort, but then my suspicion grew less until he turned out to be bad.

[Daruya]

Red, I was shocked about Sheriam, too, though I did get a bit suspicious when she started getting beaten on the march.

[Masema]

So I'm coming into this late. 

 

Day 1. 

My initial thought of Snape was that he was evil. Somehow, some way he would be a villain. 

 

I thought that Verin wouldn't really be a big character, or that she would just be a one and done, so I didn't give her much weight at first. 

 

Day 2. 

I would say when Snape first saves Harry in the first book. I thought ok, maybe he's just a jerk. But if you're talking about the more complex plot, I don't really know. I think that because Dumbledore trusted him, I kind of did too. I remember before the last book came out people were having giant arguments and it was like "Team Snape is Good" and "Team Snape is evil." I was on the "Team Snape is good." 

 

Hmm, something more to Verin. I can't remember when exactly, but I think it was when I realized she wasn't a stereotypical Brown. I was shocked with Sheriam too. 

[Leala]

The first hint for me for Snape was when we found out that he was a Deatheater.  I know that sounds weird, but there had been so many chances for him to kill Harry, but he just saved him...in ever book it seemed.  I remember that argument, too, Masema.  I was on the Team Snape is probably good, but it doesn't really matter because I hate him anyway.  xD

 

My first hint that Verin was something other than what she portrayed herself to be was when in the text, every time someone mentioned her expression, they'd say something along the lines of, "She's got her head in the clouds like most Browns, but she's also very alert and very bad at hiding it."

[Red2111]

oh god i recall those arguements!! at the time i was on a huge Harry Potter community site (Harry Potter Portal) i was on "Snape is an evil git" team.

 

with Snape, yes DD trusted him, and until the Occlumancy lessons i gave Snape the benfit of the doubt. but after that, i sided with Harry on Snape. that the lessons were really Snape weakening Harry's mind to Voldy not strengthening the defenses and that DD was mistaken about Snape and being played.

 

edit - you guys bring up saving harry at the quidditch match. tbh, i started the series on book three and didn't read the first two book until after tDH's came out; so when i did read that part his alliance had already been confirmed for me.

 

 

the other big debate at the time was "DD's not dead" *bangs head repeatedly against a wall over that infuriating debate*

[RandA lThor]

oh god i recall those arguements!! at the time i was on a huge Harry Potter community site (Harry Potter Portal) i was on "Snape is an evil git" team.

 

with Snape, yes DD trusted him, and until the Occlumancy lessons i gave Snape the benfit of the doubt. but after that, i sided with Harry on Snape. that the lessons were really Snape weakening Harry's mind to Voldy not strengthening the defenses and that DD was mistaken about Snape and being played.

 

edit - you guys bring up saving harry at the quidditch match. tbh, i started the series on book three and didn't read the first two book until after tDH's came out; so when i did read that part his alliance had already been confirmed for me.

 

 

the other big debate at the time was "DD's not dead" *bangs head repeatedly against a wall over that infuriating debate*

I remember that. I went to the releasing of Harry Potter 7, and my cousins and I were all on Snape is good.

[Leala]

Day 3:

 

How would things be different in either series if Snape or Verin had stayed on just one side without infiltrating the other?

[Masema]

Sorry, but did you guys miss Snape's vindication, or am I reading your posts wrong?

 

In Harry Potter, if Snape had only stayed on the DE or OOP side, then Voldy would have won. Without Snape playing the double agent, I don't really know how to explain it, but it would have been bad. I actually watched Deathly Hallows again last night, and you could see it in his face how hard it was to keep going. He was the last rock against the swirling tide and all he could do was bide his time. 

 

In WoT, well, who knows really. It would have been bad if Verin had stuck to one side because of all the BA sisters in the tower would have gone unnoticed. Who really knows what plans Messana had for them. 

[Red2111]

Masema, i get your point.  but to be honest, if Snape would have just kept his mouth shut in the first place and not gone running to Voldemort like the lap dog he was looking for favor after hearing half a flamming prophecy then Harrys parents would still be alive and none of this would have happened.

 

defend him all you want, but fact remains, the ENTIRE thing is his fault.  people tend to over look that little detail with his character.  to me, it just shows his true character.

 

he only protected potter out of his lust for lily, and need for vengence to see her killer dead.  not because he all of a sudden turned good.  Snape never was, and never could be a good guy.  anti-hero yes, but deep down, hes a villian just as much as the liked of Lucius Malfoy.

 

 

as for Verin, imo she was always a good guy.

 

 

so theres your "how would things have been different" answer.  without Verin Egwene wouldn't know know half of the BA and liekly the Tower woudl not be standing for the last battle.

 

as for Snape, the only thing i can say is that the Order wouldn't have shown up to resuce Harry and Co in OoTP.

[Leala]

I didn't miss it, Masema. I just still didn't like him is all. xD

 

Sorry for the delay, guys. I didn't have any time to sit down and do this yesterday. And i'm looking at another busy day today. :/

 

So, before it gets too busy, i'll post owed questions in the next post.

[Leala]

I'm on my phone, so no bolding. :P

 

Day 4:

 

Let's talk motivations. Do you consider either of their motivations to be purer than the other's? Did you think of either of them as being less trustworthy when you found out about their plans?

 

Day 5:

 

Simple question. Did you ever see it coming for either if them?

[Masema]

Red, just so I don't derail the topic 

 

This is from an interview with Rowling.

"Snape is a complicated man...he was a flawed human being, like all of us. Harry forgives him...Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately... I wanted there to be redemption."

Snape first overheard the prophecy made by Trelawney (remember that it never mentions Harry's name) he didn't know who it applied to. When he found out he begged Voldy to spare Lily and when that didn't work he went to Dumbledore to confess and beg protection for her and her family. His love for her was so great that he turned his back on Voldemort then. "using his powers of Occlumency to hide his betrayal from Voldemort."

Because Snape abandoned his post before dying or officially retiring, a portrait of him does not immediately appear in the Headmaster's office following his death. She adds, however, that she would like to think Harry made Snape's true loyalty and heroism known in the Wizarding world, and that he lobbied to ensure that a portrait be installed in the office

 

I just can't consider him a bad guy after what he did. He gave everything, including his life, to the cause of good. After someone makes the ultimate sacrifice there is no question in my mind as to their loyalties. I respect your opinion, this is just mine. 

 

 

Day 4: I wouldn't say either has purer motivations as they were both self serving, although both ended up making a sacrifice for the greater good, that wasn't their motivation. Snape with Lily. Verin just wanted to study the BA

 

Day 5:Snape I saw it coming for a long time. I think Rowling hid snippets of clues along the way. When Verin came in and confessed to Egwene, that just came out of left field.