How did Lanfear die?

[herid]

The death of Lanfear is never clearly explained. We know that she died and her soul was transmigrated into Cyndane but what exactly happened?

The Finns told Moiraine that they killed Lanfear but I'm quite sure they were lying. A man (surely Moridin) showed up to look for her. If the Finns really killed her there was no need for Moridin to come looking for her. The DO could have snatched her soul once she died.

So she must have been alive when he retrieved her, but what could have happened afterward? I don't think Moridin would kill her himself after going to all the trouble of getting her back.

I've seen a theory by Terez somewhere that Lanfear may have died on the way back through the doorway in Tear but I can't find the post where she discussed this and I can't recall the details. It's likely that Moridin did use the doorway in Tear to get to Finn-land. The only other option is the ToG and I don't think even Moridin would get through that one safely. Plus, something did happen to the Tear doorway. It was destroyed by the time Mat tried to use it so something fairly drastic must have occurred. Any ideas?

[capuga]

Why assume the Finns were lying? We know that Moiraine's Power is lessened due to the Finns snacking on her. We know that Lanfear's Power level is less than it used to be. So it stands to reason that the Finns snacked on her as well. This would seem to back up their story.

 

Why a man would visit her in Finnland if she was already dead? I don't have a good answer for that. But I think their story of eating Lanfear's Power too fast and killing her is likely true.

[herid]

Why assume the Finns were lying?

 

Because they are not exactly the most trustworthy folk and because Moridin came looking for Lanfear in person.

[Vermillion]

It does beg the question does the drain on her soul only effect this life or all others?

 

It seems like the ability to channel and strength and side of the TS is always transmigrated regardless of new body.

 

But its said that the ability to channel is based on first soul and life time manifestation trigger in the body or destiny of this life spinning, etc.

 

This leads me to believe that Lanfear's soul was drained some or maybe a lot and she died in the exit or was killed by Moridin for insubordination and slapped with a mind trapping.

[capuga]

Why assume the Finns were lying?

 

Because they are not exactly the most trustworthy folk and because Moridin came looking for Lanfear in person.

 

Where have we seen the Finns lie? The man coming to look for Lanfear does raise some questions.

[Mats Spare Hat]

This is assuming it's possible for a Dreamer to enter the ToG, while in TAR. You could get the impression that Slayer can, soo it could be possible?

 

..I wonder if Moridin could have entered TAR in the flesh, entered the ToG, then gated himself back to the waking world, and that's how he got there for the suspected meeting with Lanfear.

 

How he could have figured out she was there might have had to do with snatching info from other folks' dreams, or maybe he even used 'need' trying to find Lanfear, and that's where TAR pointed the compass?

 

 

I agree with the Finns as most wanted with regard to how Lanfear croaked. She probably got all crazy biotch too, so it gave the Finns even more smack for their fixes and they went all binge mode. Could very well be she asked for things & the price was her demise. Any combination's possible, she could have been wounded and died before the Finns could suck her completely dry, too.

 

The how, who, and what did he ask for about the assumed Ish/Mori is kinda interesting though eh?

 

That's one of the things that, even if it were in a Glossary, I hope we find out: What everybody's Finn question & answers are or have been.

[Ashandarei]

Why assume the Finns were lying? We know that Moiraine's Power is lessened due to the Finns snacking on her. We know that Lanfear's Power level is less than it used to be.¹ So it stands to reason that the Finns snacked on her as well. This would seem to back up their story.

Why a man would visit her in Finnland if she was already dead? I don't have a good answer for that. But I think their story of eating Lanfear's Power too fast and killing her is likely true.

¹ The key lies in that fact. Her power level is less than it used to be but definitely not gone, as in she can still channel, and fairly strongly considering that it's more so than Graendal:

 

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close. . . . The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

 

It does beg the question does the drain on her soul only effect this life or all others?

It seems like the ability to channel and strength and side of the TS is always transmigrated regardless of new body.²

But its said that the ability to channel is based on first soul and life time manifestation trigger in the body or destiny of this life spinning, etc.

This leads me to believe that Lanfear's soul was drained some or maybe a lot and she died in the exit or was killed by Moridin for insubordination and slapped with a mind trapping.

² We know that the ability to channel is linked to the soul from what RJ says below. Also, we know that burning out/stilling does not affect future lifetimes(³). But we also know that transmigration doesn't count as a future life(⁵) and that if you were burned out/stilled you still would be unable to channel in your transmigrated form(⁴).

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Question: Previously you have made it known that an individual who is severed will retain the ability to channel in his or her subsequent life, which connects the ability to channel with the soul. How does burning out affect ones ability to channel in the next life? Specifically, will an individual born with the spark but who burns out during his or her life have the inborn spark in a subsequent life?

Jordan: I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or severing affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.³

-

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Okay, so at the end of that answer he said this...we were asking a specific question about stilling and burning out…he said, “And neither burning out nor stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime”. In other words...

Brandon: ...that is consistent...

Matt: ...it doesn’t affect your souls ability, your soul’s connection. So stilling and burning out do not affect the ability to channel, which seems to be integral to the soul as it pertains to a new life. That being said, Aran'gar and Osan'gar, they were transmigrated and we see that they can channel in their new bodies, which makes sense because the ability comes with the soul...

Brandon: ...and because of that if you were male before and reborn (in a female body)...you are channeling the wrong Power.

Matt: Exactly. He was transmigrated into a different body, but still channeling the same Power the soul inherits. So, considering Jordan's statement about stilling and burning out not affecting the channeling ability of the new life of a soul, is the same for the new life of a soul transmigrated?

Brandon: I’m going to say that transmigrated...if you were burned out and transmigrated you would still be burned out, is my guess.⁴

Matt: Is that a MAFO question? Or...

Brandon: That is my guess, and you can MAFO it if you want to send it to me, but that is a “I’m pretty sure” answer.

[Maria clarifies: Yes, you would. Jim said that “neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.” (DragonCon), but transmigration is not really a different lifetime; more than just the soul moves. The new person (I’m at a loss for words here) also has the memories of the previous person, and its personality, and such.⁵ So Brandon is correct.]

 

All that being said, the cinch lies in the following inference: Reducing the power level is simply another way of affecting a person's ability to channel, just like burning out/stilling/gentling. That means Cyndane/Lanfear's power level is reduced because she was brought down to that level in the previous life by the 'Finns and that effect transfered when she died and was transmigrated. That also means that she can't have been completely drained like the 'Finns assert because then she'd have no power/channeling as Cyndane either.

 

Finally, all that was to prove that Cyndane didn't in fact die because the 'Finns sucked the Power out of her but because of some other reason we don't know of yet. How that happened is something I'm fairly sure we'll learn in AMoL.

 

___________________________________

 

EDIT:

 

Additionally, as to why the 'Finns might lie:

"They claimed to have killed Lanfear by draining her too quickly, though I think they may have been trying to make me afraid. A man was there once. He said I was not the one he wanted."

While this is an opinion of a character, their opinions carry a lot more weight than one of ours because the author often hints at things through them. In this case, BS/RJ is hinting that Lanfear didn't in fact die. Also, the man must have been Moridin and he must have come for Lanfear- as herid & Mark mentioned, why come for her if she's dead?

[Beidomon]

This thread is spoiler spillover from a non-spoiler thread: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/56182-important-question-about-ishamael/

 

So, now that I'm on the spoiler board, my question for herid is, why does it matter who killed Lanfear, other than pure curiousity?

[Xader]

Why assume the Finns were lying? We know that Moiraine's Power is lessened due to the Finns snacking on her. We know that Lanfear's Power level is less than it used to be.¹ So it stands to reason that the Finns snacked on her as well. This would seem to back up their story.

Why a man would visit her in Finnland if she was already dead? I don't have a good answer for that. But I think their story of eating Lanfear's Power too fast and killing her is likely true.

¹ The key lies in that fact. Her power level is less than it used to be but definitely not gone, as in she can still channel, and fairly strongly considering that it's more so than Graendal:

 

If they were draining her too quickly, she could've easily died from shock relatively soon. Long before they drained her power very far, like with Moiraine.

[Mats Spare Hat]

This thread is spoiler spillover from a non-spoiler thread: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/56182-important-question-about-ishamael/

 

So, now that I'm on the spoiler board, my question for herid is, why does it matter who killed Lanfear, other than pure curiousity?

 

 

Lanfear, it's the new Asmodean? ... ..Nnnnaaahh

 

My thoughts:

 

1.) Self-Inflicted

2.) Result of Finn bargain

3.) Tole of woundings/starvation

4.) Third Party: Ish/Mori, maybe Slayer, could have been SH

5.) Imperfect escape - melty Tear door reason?

6.) Moiraine, since we don't know what she asked for?

 

OOOOOhhhh the curious possibilities!

[mbuehner]

This thread is spoiler spillover from a non-spoiler thread: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/56182-important-question-about-ishamael/

 

So, now that I'm on the spoiler board, my question for herid is, why does it matter who killed Lanfear, other than pure curiousity?

 

 

Lanfear, it's the new Asmodean? ... ..Nnnnaaahh

 

My thoughts:

 

1.) Self-Inflicted

2.) Result of Finn bargain

3.) Tole of woundings/starvation

4.) Third Party: Ish/Mori, maybe Slayer, could have been SH

5.) Imperfect escape - melty Tear door reason?

6.) Moiraine, since we don't know what she asked for?

 

OOOOOhhhh the curious possibilities!

 

I think #2 would be an elegant answer. Moridin comes to retrieve her which plays some part in killing her via her own wishes... or perhaps even Moraine's. Look at it this way- the Finns would not have wanted Lanfear dead before they could drain her dry, but if Moridin showed up full of the TP they would have the choice of letting her walk (which they HATE) or finding a way to see her dead asap. Perhaps Lanfear wished to be free but didn't specify a time... so the Finns picked the time by murdering her when Moridin showed up to get her (maximizing their feeding time, fulfilling their wish obligation, and maintaining their reputation for screwing with people).

[herid]

This thread is spoiler spillover from a non-spoiler thread: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/56182-important-question-about-ishamael/

 

So, now that I'm on the spoiler board, my question for herid is, why does it matter who killed Lanfear, other than pure curiousity?

partly curiosity but mostly because I want things in the novels to make sense. Right now they don't as far as Lanfear's death is concerned. and unlike Asmodean's death, her death has further implications to the plotline. not only because she came back (unlike Asmodean) but because the circumstances of her death likely affected other events. In particular, I believe that her death is related to the destruction of the ter'angreal doorway in Tear. This prevented Mat from using it when he tried. It might also be related to one of Moiraine's request of Eelfinn as Mat's Spare Hat suggested. Lastly, If Moridin killed her she might be less inclined to be faithful to him. If he saved her and she died some other way she would be more inclined to serve him. Right now there is something of a question if she is willingly helping Moridin trap Rand at the end of ToM. if you feel none of this matters feel free to move on.

 

It does beg the question does the drain on her soul only effect this life or all others?

 

It seems like the ability to channel and strength and side of the TS is always transmigrated regardless of new body.

 

But its said that the ability to channel is based on first soul and life time manifestation trigger in the body or destiny of this life spinning, etc.

 

This leads me to believe that Lanfear's soul was drained some or maybe a lot and she died in the exit or was killed by Moridin for insubordination and slapped with a mind trapping.

Ashandarei's post gives excellent info on what happens with ability to channel in transmigration. as far as Moridin killing her for insubordination this seems very unlikely to me. He apparently went to great trouble to retrieve her. Killing her afterward in order to transmigrate her soul later is a hustle. also, RJ indicated that transmigration can only happen in a short period of time after death. so it was also risky. If Moridin wanted to punish her he could have done what he's done with the others- give her to Shaidar Haran to play with and then mindtrap her. No need to kill her.

 

Why assume the Finns were lying?

 

Because they are not exactly the most trustworthy folk and because Moridin came looking for Lanfear in person.

 

Where have we seen the Finns lie?

as i said, this is not my primary reason for suspecting that they lied to Moiraine. But they do lie (or at least prevaricate).

"Impossible," the Eelfinn said. "Listen to me. Fire isn't needed. I will lead you half of the way to the central chamber, the Chamber of Bonds, should you leave behind that terrible fire. It offends us. We wish only to meet your desires."

That's hardly the only thing they wish for.

The Eelfinn shied away from the new light, snarling softly. "You come looking to bargain, yet you purposely antagonize? We have done nothing to earn this."

Mat pulled the scarf free from his neck. "Nothing?"

I think Mat has a point here, don't you?

 

 

This is assuming it's possible for a Dreamer to enter the ToG, while in TAR. You could get the impression that Slayer can, soo it could be possible?

 

I seem to remember seeing a quote by RJ or BS that one can not get to Finn world from TAR. However, this would seem to contradict what Birgitte told Perrin so maybe I'm just remembering things wrong.

 

 

 

 

It does beg the question does the drain on her soul only effect this life or all others?

It seems like the ability to channel and strength and side of the TS is always transmigrated regardless of new body.²

But its said that the ability to channel is based on first soul and life time manifestation trigger in the body or destiny of this life spinning, etc.

This leads me to believe that Lanfear's soul was drained some or maybe a lot and she died in the exit or was killed by Moridin for insubordination and slapped with a mind trapping.

² We know that the ability to channel is linked to the soul from what RJ says below. Also, we know that burning out/stilling does not affect future lifetimes(³). But we also know that transmigration doesn't count as a future life(⁵) and that if you were burned out/stilled you still would be unable to channel in your transmigrated form(⁴).

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Question: Previously you have made it known that an individual who is severed will retain the ability to channel in his or her subsequent life, which connects the ability to channel with the soul. How does burning out affect ones ability to channel in the next life? Specifically, will an individual born with the spark but who burns out during his or her life have the inborn spark in a subsequent life?

Jordan: I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or severing affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.³

-

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Okay, so at the end of that answer he said this...we were asking a specific question about stilling and burning out…he said, “And neither burning out nor stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime”. In other words...

Brandon: ...that is consistent...

Matt: ...it doesn’t affect your souls ability, your soul’s connection. So stilling and burning out do not affect the ability to channel, which seems to be integral to the soul as it pertains to a new life. That being said, Aran'gar and Osan'gar, they were transmigrated and we see that they can channel in their new bodies, which makes sense because the ability comes with the soul...

Brandon: ...and because of that if you were male before and reborn (in a female body)...you are channeling the wrong Power.

Matt: Exactly. He was transmigrated into a different body, but still channeling the same Power the soul inherits. So, considering Jordan's statement about stilling and burning out not affecting the channeling ability of the new life of a soul, is the same for the new life of a soul transmigrated?

Brandon: I’m going to say that transmigrated...if you were burned out and transmigrated you would still be burned out, is my guess.⁴

Matt: Is that a MAFO question? Or...

Brandon: That is my guess, and you can MAFO it if you want to send it to me, but that is a “I’m pretty sure” answer.

[Maria clarifies: Yes, you would. Jim said that “neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.” (DragonCon), but transmigration is not really a different lifetime; more than just the soul moves. The new person (I’m at a loss for words here) also has the memories of the previous person, and its personality, and such.⁵ So Brandon is correct.]

 

All that being said, the cinch lies in the following inference: Reducing the power level is simply another way of affecting a person's ability to channel, just like burning out/stilling/gentling. That means Cyndane/Lanfear's power level is reduced because she was brought down to that level in the previous life by the 'Finns and that effect transfered when she died and was transmigrated. That also means that she can't have been completely drained like the 'Finns assert because then she'd have no power/channeling as Cyndane either.

 

Finally, all that was to prove that Cyndane didn't in fact die because the 'Finns sucked the Power out of her but because of some other reason we don't know of yet. How that happened is something I'm fairly sure we'll learn in AMoL.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot for all that info! It's quite useful and it clarifies a number of things. it also does lend extra support to the argument that the Finns did not kill Lanfear by draining her too quickly.

___________________________________

 

EDIT:

 

Additionally, as to why the 'Finns might lie:

"They claimed to have killed Lanfear by draining her too quickly, though I think they may have been trying to make me afraid. A man was there once. He said I was not the one he wanted."

While this is an opinion of a character, their opinions carry a lot more weight than one of ours because the author often hints at things through them. In this case, BS/RJ is hinting that Lanfear didn't in fact die. Also, the man must have been Moridin and he must have come for Lanfear- as herid & Mark mentioned, why come for her if she's dead?

exactly. as I stated this is my main reason for thinking that the Finns lied to Moiraine about that.

 

 

 

 

My thoughts:

 

1.) Self-Inflicted

2.) Result of Finn bargain

3.) Tole of woundings/starvation

4.) Third Party: Ish/Mori, maybe Slayer, could have been SH

5.) Imperfect escape - melty Tear door reason?

6.) Moiraine, since we don't know what she asked for?

 

OOOOOhhhh the curious possibilities!

Some good options here. 2.) and 6) are interesting possibilities that I haven't thought of. Moiraine may have asked for something that would make Lanfear's escape hard. But I also just realized that Moridin must have come via ToG and not via the Tear doorway as that one is very restrictive in what you can get (only Aelfinn answers). if he did come in via ToG then his and Lanfear's escape might have been rather difficult.

[Ashandarei]

Thanks a lot for all that info! It's quite useful and it clarifies a number of things. it also does lend extra support to the argument that the Finns did not kill Lanfear by draining her too quickly.

 

No problem, glad I could help.

[Terez]

The death of Lanfear is never clearly explained. We know that she died and her soul was transmigrated into Cyndane

Not necessarily. She could be using Illusion, either True Power Illusion or inverted One Power. There are a number of reasons why Moridin might want to do this. If none of the other Forsaken know that Lanfear is alive, then Moridin guarantees that word won't get back to Rand about it (which would lead to him going after Moiraine), at least not until he's ready for Rand to know (like the trap we saw at the end of TOM), and he also keeps the secret of 'Finnland from the other Forsaken, assuming it's not common knowledge. He at least keeps the secret that Lanfear was trapped there for a time. Maybe he just wanted to keep the others from getting ideas in their heads about 'Finnland; it's a great place to get stuff that might help you complete for Nae'blis.

 

I've seen a theory by Terez somewhere that Lanfear may have died on the way back through the doorway in Tear but I can't find the post where she discussed this and I can't recall the details.

I've written about it in a few places, but you probably read it here.

 

The power reduction clues are pretty subtle and not necessarily worth much. Indeed, Moiraine's phrasing of their 'claim' implies she was inclined to question it. Technically, they could have simply drained her too quickly without draining her very far at all, so that's not necessarily evidence that they lied, but it would be rather strange for Moridin or any other servant of the Dark to seek her there if she was already dead, because the Dark One would know the moment she died. It seems unlikely that they only killed her when they realized Moridin was coming, but even that is possible.

[herid]

The death of Lanfear is never clearly explained. We know that she died and her soul was transmigrated into Cyndane

Not necessarily. She could be using Illusion, either True Power Illusion or inverted One Power.

I've never thought of that possibility! That would certainly be very devious of Moridin. I somewhat doubt it because we have a Cyndane POV at the cleansing and she seems to think of herself as Cyndane.

I doubt that if she was still Lanfear she would do ever do that. She is no Leilwin Shipless.

There are a number of reasons why Moridin might want to do this. If none of the other Forsaken know that Lanfear is alive, then Moridin guarantees that word won't get back to Rand about it (which would lead to him going after Moiraine), at least not until he's ready for Rand to know (like the trap we saw at the end of TOM), and he also keeps the secret of 'Finnland from the other Forsaken, assuming it's not common knowledge. He at least keeps the secret that Lanfear was trapped there for a time. Maybe he just wanted to keep the others from getting ideas in their heads about 'Finnland; it's a great place to get stuff that might help you complete for Nae'blis.

 

I've seen a theory by Terez somewhere that Lanfear may have died on the way back through the doorway in Tear but I can't find the post where she discussed this and I can't recall the details.

I've written about it in a few places, but you probably read it here.

 

Yes, that was it, thanks a lot!

 

It's an interesting theory. Of course it's rather speculative as any theory explaining what happened would be at this point.

But you don't address the question of the doorway destruction.

The doorway had been shattered by something, a blow of awesome force.

 

Who did that and why? It wasn't Moiraine's or Rand's ward. Did Moridin do it? why would he?

[Mats Spare Hat]

What if Moridin knew something about how important Moiraine or Lanfear might be in the big picture and the possible reason, if it was indeed he who hath done the deed, for destroying the Tear doorway was to prevent that access, or escape from Finnland. It could have been that he may have asked the Finns to keep her trapped there because his plans don't jive with what Lanfear wants?

 

The reason I say that is because, whenever or however Lanfear get's axed, and then apparently reincarnated, she's mindtrapped right off the bat. Why that level of control, if not because you know something about that person, or their motivations that would make you want to keep them reined in, in such a way?

 

So without the doorways, there's still the ToG. But you've got to get there, and then by going that route you're also not afforded the treaty protections of said doorways.

 

You could get the impression that knowledge of where the Tower isn't entirely common knowledge? It would seem to require a bit more effort to know that the ToG is a pathway to Finnland, then find/make your way to the Tower, know how to make a doorway, then venture through Finnland to whatever the chamber was to get what you want, then be crafty enough to get yourself out, and live through the entire ordeal.

 

Even Mat & the Gang wouldn't have made it out, if it hadn't have been the infamous Big Unnoticed Thing realized at the critical moment that allowed them to get the heck out of Dodge.

 

To much of a stretch for Mori's motivations?

[herid]

What if Moridin knew something about how important Moiraine or Lanfear might be in the big picture and the possible reason, if it was indeed he who hath done the deed, for destroying the Tear doorway was to prevent that access, or escape from Finnland. It could have been that he may have asked the Finns to keep her trapped there because his plans don't jive with what Lanfear wants?

Yes, that might be a possible reason as far as Moiraine is concerned.

 

The reason I say that is because, whenever or however Lanfear get's axed, and then apparently reincarnated, she's mindtrapped right off the bat. Why that level of control, if not because you know something about that person, or their motivations that would make you want to keep them reined in, in such a way?

 

Yes, and we actually know exactly what those motivations were.

Lanfear is dead set on killing Rand after discovering his supposed infidelity. That flatly contradicts DO's orders NOT to kill Rand. Lanfear was not going to obey that order without some very strong encouragement.

[capuga]

The death of Lanfear is never clearly explained. We know that she died and her soul was transmigrated into Cyndane

Not necessarily. She could be using Illusion, either True Power Illusion or inverted One Power. There are a number of reasons why Moridin might want to do this. If none of the other Forsaken know that Lanfear is alive, then Moridin guarantees that word won't get back to Rand about it (which would lead to him going after Moiraine), at least not until he's ready for Rand to know (like the trap we saw at the end of TOM), and he also keeps the secret of 'Finnland from the other Forsaken, assuming it's not common knowledge. He at least keeps the secret that Lanfear was trapped there for a time. Maybe he just wanted to keep the others from getting ideas in their heads about 'Finnland; it's a great place to get stuff that might help you complete for Nae'blis.

 

I've seen a theory by Terez somewhere that Lanfear may have died on the way back through the doorway in Tear but I can't find the post where she discussed this and I can't recall the details.

I've written about it in a few places, but you probably read it here.

 

The power reduction clues are pretty subtle and not necessarily worth much. Indeed, Moiraine's phrasing of their 'claim' implies she was inclined to question it. Technically, they could have simply drained her too quickly without draining her very far at all, so that's not necessarily evidence that they lied, but it would be rather strange for Moridin or any other servant of the Dark to seek her there if she was already dead, because the Dark One would know the moment she died. It seems unlikely that they only killed her when they realized Moridin was coming, but even that is possible.

 

Perhaps the Dark One cannot reach into Finnland and needed the body retrieved to the waking world in order to transmigrate her.

[herid]

 

 

Perhaps the Dark One cannot reach into Finnland and needed the body retrieved to the waking world in order to transmigrate her.

Unlikely. we have no indications that anything like this is involved. In fact, we have indications that once people die they go to the same place even if they die in a parallel world. Birgitte died in Finn-land once. she ended up in TAR as always. why would it work differently with others?

[newimperium]

 

 

Perhaps the Dark One cannot reach into Finnland and needed the body retrieved to the waking world in order to transmigrate her.

Unlikely. we have no indications that anything like this is involved. In fact, we have indications that once people die they go to the same place even if they die in a parallel world. Birgitte died in Finn-land once. she ended up in TAR as always. why would it work differently with others?

 

 

 

Here's my (new or not?) theory.... At least I haven't seen anyone mention it on this thread:

 

Lanfear NEVER DIED. Her new body is a result of the 'Finns. Maybe she was scarred in some way from her battle with Moiraine, and she wished to "be beautiful again". Instead of restoring her, they gave her a new body. Then they started draining her. Moridin shows up shortly thereafter from the Tear doorway, is confused by her appearance at first (hence the "You're not the one I'm looking for" comment to Moiraine) then he finds her and get her out. He DESTROYS the doorway in Tear because he doesn't want anyone else going back in (and rescuing Moiraine).

 

No need to transmigrate Lanfear's essence. She's a bit weaker because of the 'Finn's draining her, then Moridin mindtrapped her just so he could keep tabs on her. After all, he's not letting any of the Forsaken run around freely at that point, and not only is she more of a loose cannon than most, but she was also a potential rival to him for Nae'blis, AND had the strongest link to LTT. Better to keep her under his thumb.

[herid]

 

 

Perhaps the Dark One cannot reach into Finnland and needed the body retrieved to the waking world in order to transmigrate her.

Unlikely. we have no indications that anything like this is involved. In fact, we have indications that once people die they go to the same place even if they die in a parallel world. Birgitte died in Finn-land once. she ended up in TAR as always. why would it work differently with others?

 

 

 

Here's my (new or not?) theory.... At least I haven't seen anyone mention it on this thread:

 

Lanfear NEVER DIED. Her new body is a result of the 'Finns.

 

I don't think the Finns can do such things. both Jordan and Sanderson indicated that the Finns are limited in what they can do.

 

Matt: Ok, so that being said there are some theories out there that in the Age of Legends, at one point, Lanfear might have…

 

Brandon: ...let’s just say I have not said that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person.

 

Matt: Oh, absolutely, I’m jumping to this other Forsaken that we are talking about…

 

Brandon: …this other completely different person…Uh huh…

 

Matt: …so Lanfear, the theory goes, that maybe she was accentuated from a beauty and/or Power perspective by going to the 'Finnland previously.

 

Brandon: Okay.

 

Matt: Would the 'Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?

 

Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party ter’angreal, angreal, this sort of thing.

 

Matt: So, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?

 

Brandon: Certainly not permanently; as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability.

 

Matt: From a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?

 

Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of ter’angreal or…

 

Matt: …some item of Power?

 

Brandon: Some item of Power, something like that…of which they have great stores…

[Sharaman]

The Finns are similar to AS in that they never directly lie - they twist statements and look for logical loopholes in the bargains they make. This fits with the Celtic mythos from which RJ "borrowed" them - the faerie can't lie.

IF they said they killed her through sudden power drainage, then they killed her through sudden power drainage.

BUT we don't have an exact transcript of that conversation - just Moiraine's paraphrasing and she may be misconstruing whatever the Finns told her.

We also don't have an exact transcript of the conversation with the person who came to reclaim Lanfear - again Moiraine may be misconstruing or leaving out important detail.

Nor do we know the time sequence of those two conservations.

That is, was Lanfear already dead when the chap (assuming it was a male and not a woman using illusion) arrived or did the Finns agree to give her back and then kill her, finding a loophole in whatever bargain they made with the person (and earlier with Lanfear)?

The person concerned must have come through ToG - you couldn't reach the Hall of Bargains in the Foxes' realm through Tear. After the Rhuidean Door was flamed, the only way to Foxland (that we know about) was via ToG.

He (assuming gender) must have smashed the Tear Door to prevent any Lightsider asking awkward questions of the Snakes.

[Terez]

The Finns are similar to AS in that they never directly lie

We don't know that; we only know that the Aelfinn give true answers, according to the ancient agreement.

[alpineman]

The death of Lanfear is never clearly explained. We know that she died and her soul was transmigrated into Cyndane but what exactly happened?

The Finns told Moiraine that they killed Lanfear but I'm quite sure they were lying. A man (surely Moridin) showed up to look for her. If the Finns really killed her there was no need for Moridin to come looking for her. The DO could have snatched her soul once she died.

So she must have been alive when he retrieved her, but what could have happened afterward? I don't think Moridin would kill her himself after going to all the trouble of getting her back.

I've seen a theory by Terez somewhere that Lanfear may have died on the way back through the doorway in Tear but I can't find the post where she discussed this and I can't recall the details. It's likely that Moridin did use the doorway in Tear to get to Finn-land. The only other option is the ToG and I don't think even Moridin would get through that one safely. Plus, something did happen to the Tear doorway. It was destroyed by the time Mat tried to use it so something fairly drastic must have occurred. Any ideas?

 

Let me say, that I think this part of 'what happened to Lanfear', is very exciting, and gives these last books a real depth. (Too bad it took until book 13 to solve what happened in book 5).

I've never seen anything in the books that would suggest Lanfear died coming back through a gateway. Similarly, I've never seen anything that would suggest that Moridin would have a hard time going through through a Finn gateway.

[herid]

The Finns are similar to AS in that they never directly lie

We don't know that; we only know that the Aelfinn give true answers, according to the ancient agreement.

I think Sharaman meant that we never see them give outright lies. Even when they try to trick Mat and co during their visit to ToG they seem to stick to the truth (sort of). The two examples I gave above may be considered lies but it's debatable.

 

 

BTW, on your idea that Lanfear may not have died and is just using a power created disguise, there is one more reason to doubt that. She shows up in Rand's dream in ToM as Cyndane, not as Lanfear. Why would she do that? This just means extra trouble trying to persuade Rand that

she is who she says she is. Also, clearly, part of the plan is to try to seduce Rand. That seems to be working as his desire is mentioned. Now, we are told that Cyndane is beautiful but Lanfear was supposedly the most beautiful woman ever, or so we were told often enough. Why use an inferior substitute if you don't have to?