Lanfear mentions two ter'angreal stronger than Callandor

[bigWalt]

Lanfear mentions(in tSR) two ter'angreal stronger than Callandor that men can use. One is the one that Rand used with Nynaive to cleanse Saiden.  Has the second been revealed?  I am on maybe my tenth reread of the series, one good thing about a faulty memory is the ability to find things in rereads that I had clearly forgotten or never really noticed.  So I ask the WoT scholars here if they can answer this for me?

[Luckers]

Nope. A lot of people like to think its the ring of Tamyrlin, but it highly unlikely that a symbol of an office often filled by a woman was a male sa'angreal.

 

We don't know what it is though. It's probable it was destroyed during the Breaking like most male angreal and sa'angreal.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Might be. Since we know Tamyrlin was a very important figure in Aes Sedai history. Also why should it matter if it's a male sa'angreal or not? If it's used by the Amyrlins they see it's purpose as a sign of power and history being the only surviving relic of Tamyrlin, not a functional weapon to use.

[Duskfire]

Its a strange comment. The Choedan Kal was created to specifically battle the Shadow; if there was another around, why wasn't that used? And isn't Callandor a defective product? In theory there should be heaps more powerful about.

 

Its possible Lanfear was just lying her ass off.

[cortezthekiller]

This is probably one of those things we'll wonder about until the Encyclopaedia comes out.

[Arkane101]

was there any evidence anywhere stating that there was definately only one Aes Sedai leader? maybe there was both an Amyrlin and a T'Amerlin at all times?

[Luckers]

There was neither. The Aes Sedai leader was the First Amongst Servants. Amyrlin is a modern distortion, and Tamyrlin was the name of the first channeler, and his/her ring is worn as a symbol of office by the First Amongst Servants--of which, yes, there is only one.

[Fains nose]

Is it Artur Hawkwings sword?(now in Rands posession, he knows more about it than he has said...)

[Heron Marked Fist]

I don't have an exact quote handy, but when Lanfear said there were two more powerful sa'angreal, I thought she was referring to the Choedan Kal. I never took what she said to mean there were two more powerful male sa'angreal, but two more powerful sa'angreal period.

[bigWalt]

I don't have an exact quote handy, but when Lanfear said there were two more powerful sa'angreal, I thought she was referring to the Choedan Kal. I never took what she said to mean there were two more powerful male sa'angreal, but two more powerful sa'angreal period.

From The Shadow Rising Paperback Edition page 182:

"There are only two more powerful that a man can use.  One at least, I know still exists.  No Lews Therin.  I will not trust you yet with that."  Says Lanfear as Rand backs toward Callandor.  That is very clear that she is talking of male Ter'angreal.

[firstfishman]

Ive mentioned this before, and the more I think about it, the more I think Demandred has it.

 

Noone seemed to respond to my earlier attempts to strike up this topic. Glad to see someone else is interested aswell.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Is it Artur Hawkwings sword?(now in Rands posession, he knows more about it than he has said...)

 

Very unlikely.  Not only is it unlikely that Hawkwing would have had a male sa'angreal for a sword, but if it were that powerful, Rand would certainly have thought of it as a sa'angreal, especially when considering alternatives to the Choedan Kal.  The fact that it is Justice (if indeed it is, as seems likely) is the bit that Rand knows, which no one else does.

 

I have sometimes wondered if the unknown #2 sa'angreal was something made for and used by Beidomon when they were originally creating the Bore.  Lews Therin/Rand often thought about how Mierin's obsession with power pre-dated the Dark One's advent, and she is the one who made the comment.  Also, I'm betting it took an unusual amount of the Power as well as skillful weaving to create the Bore.  At any rate, if that is the case then the sa'angreal was likely destroyed in the fall of the Sharom. 

 

Whatever the real answer, it seems unlikely that the mysterious #2 sa'angreal will make an appearance, but if it does, Demandred is as likely as anyone to have it.

[DemandredFO]

firstfishman, why do you think Demandred has it, he's the type of person I would think would launch himself at Rand and/or Moridin; that is unless he was promised great things by the DO.

On Justice being sa'angreal, highly unlikely, also Ishamael probably wouldn't have let Hawkwing keep it if it were.

On male angreal and sa'angreal, is it possible that the destruction was invented or carried out by rogues.  What if that's the cash the Finns' have are male angreal and sa'angreal.  No proof, just that if the Cheodan Kal were saved probably by a foretelling, why not others.

Luckers, your there is only one comment are you saying the leader of the AOL aes sedai was a highlander? ;D

[Vermillion]

Maybe the ring is usuable by both sexes.  I would assume its a fancy AS snake eating itself ring.  Probably what the current AS rings were based off.

[firstfishman]

I think Demandred has it because he is too calm, cool, and collected during all the times we have seen him. He has not let his jelousy get him into arguments or to let the others goad him into slipping information. I think he has not launched himself at Rand because he and the other chosen all know that Rand has the choden'kal and that he allows other Ash'aman to weild callandor. I think that when the chosen discover the male sa'angreal the choden'kal links with is destroyed, we will see Demandreds plans be put into motion.

 

Why make your move and reveal yourself when you are at a disadvantage?

[MikeRiley]

It could just be the male CK. There would have been two access keys.

[DemandredFO]

The access keys were ter'angreal not sa'angreal

firstfishman, plausible as anything else.  I don't think so but until we see what Demandred's doing, it makes sense.

[Duskfire]

If Demandred had it he would have taken it with him to the Cleansing. That was one of the few times that the Forsaken were given permission to kill Rand and it would have been the perfect time to use it. Personally, I think Lanfear was lying her ass off and just trying to goad Rand around. Callandor is a defective item that was hardly important in the AOL; there would have been heaps more powerful.

[Dagon Thyne]

Nope. A lot of people like to think its the ring of Tamyrlin, but it highly unlikely that a symbol of an office often filled by a woman was a male sa'angreal.

 

We don't know what it is though. It's probable it was destroyed during the Breaking like most male angreal and sa'angreal.

 

The ring was worn by the Dragon when he was First Among Servants in the Hall of Servants.....There were several males who sat on the High Seatof the Hall.  Only after the breaking has the ring been worn only by females.

[MikeRiley]

Callandor was created for a specific purpose during the Breaking. It was created and then sent to the Stone of Tear. I like to think it was made defective on purpose as well to convey the message that to succeed the Dragon Reborn would have to use both Saidin and Saidar (the sword is safe to use in a link).

 

 

 

The access keys were ter'angreal not sa'angreal

firstfishman, plausible as anything else.  I don't think so but until we see what Demandred's doing, it makes sense.

 

Are you sure? The thread post says ter'angreal. My books are in storage at the moment so I can't check.

[Duskfire]

Callandor was created for a specific purpose during the Breaking. It was created and then sent to the Stone of Tear. I like to think it was made defective on purpose as well to convey the message that to succeed the Dragon Reborn would have to use both Saidin and Saidar (the sword is safe to use in a link).

 

There was no reason to remind the Dragon Reborn that he would have to use both Saidin and Saidar, since at that point Saidin had yet to be tainted and they both worked in unity. In short, theres no reason to think that such a problem between male and female channelers would be established. Anyway, heres what Rj had to say on the matter...

 

JWB:  Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ:  Yes.

JWB:  Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ:  Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

JWB:  Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ:  The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

 

So Callandor was basically just a defective mass-produced weapon. Therefore, Lanfear saying that only two more are powerful then Callandor is most likely a complete lie, since there would have been more powerful around (and none asdefective either.)

[Dagon Thyne]

Its a strange comment. The Choedan Kal was created to specifically battle the Shadow; if there was another around, why wasn't that used? And isn't Callandor a defective product? In theory there should be heaps more powerful about.

 

Its possible Lanfear was just lying her ass off.

 

Actually it was made originally, not as a weapon, but to form a shield around the bore, effectively locking the DO in his prison again....but the keys were lost before it could be used....

 

Ironically, the female Aes Sedai who designed it also called for all female Aes Sedai to abandon the Dragon's plan to created the 7 seals.  The Seals needed both Saidin and Saidar to be completely successful.  When the hundred companions did it thselves a small gap in the seal allowed for the DO to taint Saidin and also allowed Ishy to still be partially in the world.....actually I think it was Ishmael who convinced Artur Hawkwing to send his army to Seanchan.

[Duskfire]

Its a strange comment. The Choedan Kal was created to specifically battle the Shadow; if there was another around, why wasn't that used? And isn't Callandor a defective product? In theory there should be heaps more powerful about.

 

Its possible Lanfear was just lying her ass off.

 

Actually it was made originally, not as a weapon, but to form a shield around the bore, effectively locking the DO in his prison again....but the keys were lost before it could be used....

 

Ironically, the female Aes Sedai who designed it also called for all female Aes Sedai to abandon the Dragon's plan to created the 7 seals.  The Seals needed both Saidin and Saidar to be completely successful.  When the hundred companions did it thselves a small gap in the seal allowed for the DO to taint Saidin and also allowed Ishy to still be partially in the world.....actually I think it was Ishmael who convinced Artur Hawkwing to send his army to Seanchan.

 

Now your being pedantic. Being a weapon against the shadow and creating a shield around the Bore are pretty similar :P And its been confirmed if Saidar had been used in the Sealing of the bore, that too would have been tainted.

[MikeRiley]

There was no reason to remind the Dragon Reborn that he would have to use both Saidin and Saidar, since at that point Saidin had yet to be tainted and they both worked in unity. In short, theres no reason to think that such a problem between male and female channelers would be established. Anyway, heres what Rj had to say on the matter...

 

JWB:  Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ:  Yes.

JWB:  Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ:  Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

JWB:  Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ:  The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

 

So Callandor was basically just a defective mass-produced weapon. Therefore, Lanfear saying that only two more are powerful then Callandor is most likely a complete lie, since there would have been more powerful around (and none asdefective either.)

 

 

Ah, I've always been under the impression that callandor was made at the same time the dragon banner was sealed away since I thought Rand saw a crystal sword lying on it in Rhuidean. Seems I was wrong!

 

 

Ironically, the female Aes Sedai who designed it also called for all female Aes Sedai to abandon the Dragon's plan to created the 7 seals.  The Seals needed both Saidin and Saidar to be completely successful.  When the hundred companions did it thselves a small gap in the seal allowed for the DO to taint Saidin and also allowed Ishy to still be partially in the world.....actually I think it was Ishmael who convinced Artur Hawkwing to send his army to Seanchan.

 

Robert Jordan said that if both halves were used then both halves would have been tainted.

[Mr. Micawber]

Ah, I've always been under the impression that callandor was made at the same time the dragon banner was sealed away since I thought Rand saw a crystal sword lying on it in Rhuidean. Seems I was wrong!

 

That sword is Callandor.

 

The three Aes Sedai discussing the situation in TSR allude to the creation of the Eye of the World, which is where they send the Banner. This, of course, had to occur before the death of the last male AS.

 

Based on the chronology of the ancestors Rand inhabits, this scene takes place many decades after the Sealing of the Bore.

 

The Stone, however, was not built for years hence, and as a result, it's a long time before they put the Sword in the Heart of the Stone. Along with Rhuidean, the Stone - or rather the wardings for Callandor - is one of the absolute last things any AoL AS does (assuming any are still alive at all, which is a very dubious proposition).

 

Edit:

 

Angreal and Sa'Angreal don't *necessarily* need to be attuned to one half of the Source. Some are unisex, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the most powerful sa'angreal before the First War would have been the Ring of the Tamyrlin. In fact it would make a great deal of sense, the single most powerful artifact of the AoL passed from the greatest to the greatest.

 

The other two super-charged sa'angreal - Callandor and the CK - were only produced for the war effort. Indeed, I think I could see Callandor being produced to complement the Ring - which would have been in LTT's possession - perhaps for another general, or perhaps to give LTT a militarized sa'angreal thus allowing the Ring to be taken out of his hands.

 

Frankly, I suspect that if the Ring was indeed a sa'angreal, it was on LTT's hand when he decided to turn himself into a geothermal power station. ie. it's toast.