On 12/18/2021 at 6:29 AM, Elder_Haman said:

 It would also be far too derivative of GoT. Though I suppose it's a possibility.

Here's my (very vague) guesses:

• The rest of the group that was left behind at Fal Dara is unable to leave the city due to a surprise Trolloc attack.
• We find out Fain's a darkfriend and is leading the Trollocs.
• We get some slow Rand and Moiraine moments where she explains stuff about the prophecies.
• Rand goes ham. "Kills" the "Dark One" and obliterates the Trollocs.
• Fain captured.

I guess we will see finally which of us are closer in our projection of the eye. Based on the rest of the show I suspect it will bear close to zero resemblance to the book and you will "win" the foretelling.  Have no real expectations for Episode 8

On 12/21/2021 at 4:51 AM, king of nowhere said:

sanderson is widely recognized as one of the best fantasy writers of this generation. if he was not good enough for you, nobody would ever have been.

 

Sanderson's own books are very solid. I do not necessarily agree that he was the best choice to take over. He was a huge fan, and his style is very similar to Jordan's and he can write incredibly fast so I totally get why he was chosen. 

But I think his WoT books are pretty poor.. I personally don't even consider them cannon to be honest.

I think the biggest issue is what you wrote in your first line, namely that Sanderson is of a completely different generation. Sanderson and Jordan have such completely different life experiences and fundamental view on the world. And it shows in the books.

In terms of the show I am in the "like" category. I think a lot of changes made sense but some of the latest changes seem unnecessary and have far reaching consequences. I do expect an uptick in Season2, TGH is probably the easiest book to adapt, but how much will they retain.

I understand how Rafe and his team made changes from a budget-down standpoint but I think they should have instead listed and rated the scenes for maybe the first 4 seasons on how important they are to be included and then worked up. There would still be a lot of changes but doing it that way would have retained more of the core worldbuilding and fantasy elements than the way they went.

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or young Siuan since she has been cast with her father(?)

Yes another possibility for sure

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

I'd guess Stone in season 2

Tear is interestingly in Season 1. Ba'lazammon deam I am guessing.

42 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

The dividing line between rating levels can be a little arbitrary too.  

 

I may have mentioned this before (can't remember) but there was a teen black comedy called "Election" back in the 90's that ran into ratings problems because of an implied oral sex scene.   The initial cut was rated NC-17 at the time.   And, the rating boiled down to the number of times you could see a characters head move up and down to suggest the act. 

 

Most of the first cuts of 80's slasher flicks were rated X on their first submission and they would seem really tame compared to what we see today.

 

 

 

I'm hoping for a good dose of it being "realistic" without too much pandering too either blood and violence or sexy fan service.       

 

 

 

I actually liked that RJ went a more suggestive approach than other approaches.   A lot of written sex scenes in other books are frankly just bad.   Carrying some of them from page to scene can make them appear almost laughably bad.   The Netflix adaptation of Altered Carbon (which is pretty faithful in its first season) is a good example of this (to me).   The scenes are there in the books, they have a certain bad porn tone, and that tone gets carried over into the series. 

 

There's also a hint of recency bias in conversations about the ratings.  GOT was successful.  This leads us to ask why it was successful which leads us to the sexy bits.  Therefore, we assume that everything that follows will try to do the same things.   But, that can become a recipe for becoming derivative rather quickly and open up the show to the "it's just like GOT" criticism really quickly. 

 

 

 

From some reports (spoiler about content)

Couple other things. Almost all ratings by other countries are higher than US, which could mean WoT is mislabelled currently

In the US I have noticed that some of them are rating individual episodes not just the entire season.  That could be happening as well.

I suspect we will see a decent amount of non-sexual nudity and brief nudity in sex scenes, sort of like Bridgerton. The show does have an intimacy coach

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

Is it just male nudity you dislike or nudity in general. Either way I doubt they’re going to GoT levels of nudity.

At least the first episode is just TV-14 but it is rated higher in other countries. They are definitely not going full GoT as Rafe said he wants you to be able to watch with your parents. 

7 minutes ago, Brad Cunningham said:

Well I just saw that Rosamund Pike mentioned there's plenty of male nudity in the show. Guess I won't be watching. Looked like they were gonna ruin it anyway. And they already recast Mat for season 2. Lol. Show is doomed.

Really? You will skip the show because they show a couple male butts and probably a few boobs? Lame. Everything I gave seen suggests this show will be a mega hit.

Interesting to see some of the negativity.

From what I have seen the TV show will adhere to the books at about the same level that GoT did.  The last trailer really shows how close they will be.

The changes I see:

Logain -showing and not telling on Logain is absolutely the right choice, not only because he becomes very important but it sill also show why Dragons (false or true) are to be feared

Mystery of how the DR is: People are losing their minds over this one. It makes sense to me and really does not change anything. Rand will still be DR, and there will still be Saidar and Saidin. It will make for better TV though

Moiraine being more upfront. -Makes sense. Also gives some punch to leaving as in the books everyone just sort of agrees to let them go just because she is AS

Consolidation of cities -yeah we lose some scope, Caemlyn and Elayne (and one of my favorite book scenes) is pushed to 2nd season. Not super happy about this but let's see how they introduce here. 

Seeing Tar Valon in Season 1 -makes sense it will streamline the story and definitely a big hook for views

Thom -Guitar, make sense. Not being in EF, not so awesome but I have my own theory on it and it may work better.

Whitecloaks actually hunting AS. BIG change, possibly the one BS does not like. I sort of love it because it makes the WC formidable and scary. In the books they just come across as a cult without much threat.

Enhancing Egwene's role. She is in some ways the second most important character in the books. I think it is a good move.

I think people NOT watching it because of these levels of changes are just cheating themselves. 

The danger becomes that each change slightly alters the arc and if not careful you wind up with the later seasons of the show where the book path no longer made any sense.

Like many here I am in double digits in reading the books, but I welcome the changes because of two things. First, I get to experience something NEW in WoT. I thought that would never happen, and second it is cannon that the WoT story has played out thousands of times, and we get to see another turning. Personally I find that extremely cool.

We should have a RAFO comment for this trailer Rafe and Find Out. He explains this in the video and says outright it is out of character but wanted to show how deep the bond is in sharing emotions

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I thought it was each first episode of the season. What's the timestamp?

It starts around the 12:00 mark. He doesn't come right out and say there is a prologue to each episode but he says the Aiel is one and then mentions how some of them are flashbacks, other areas at present time and flash forwards which seems to imply each episode has one which would be great.

Loved the trailer. One thing that people seem to be missing is that Rafe basically said that each episode has some sort of Prologue scene. Also, Rosamund did say that the opening of the series was changed so we might some flashbacks to start.

11 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

There has not been someone cast as Elayne yet. You should note that half of those from the link you gave are rumors of questionable reliability.

Elayne has absolutely been cast as they are filming season 2 right now and the casting has been confirmed by staff on the show and she was in a couple pics with the cast,

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay. That makes sense to me. 

I feel very positive about the series so far, obviously. But if they veer away from the story to the extent that it is no longer about the Dragon, that would shift my opinion considerably. 
 

Keep one other thing in mind - Elaida’s rationale for the coup. It’s a little convoluted and not the easiest to explain. Putting Moiraine and Logain together might very well link to that storyline. Perhaps Moiraine is blamed for Logain’s escape? Siuan sides with Moiraine and Elaida uses that fact to drive the coup. 
 

It will help keep things understandable for people who are new to the story if the characters reference things they’ve already experienced by watching, rather than have them refer to things that happened off screen. 

You think Logain escapes back into the wild? Or do you think he is recaptured and gentled?

36 minutes ago, Rose said:

I also don't picture faces/etc when reading (or writing. Which is such a pain.) I will remember things that are repeatedly described/important to the plot, like Nynaeve's braid or Rand's red hair or how we're very clearly told Tuon is Black. But more in a vague awareness kind of way than in actual clear images.

Part of why I love WoT above all other books is that in reading them, even the first time I had such clear pictures of the characters and places. People rag on Jordan for overly verbose descriptions but it made the series the most visual of any books I have ever read.  Some of the TV casting is very close to my mental picture some are not evcn remotely close. But I do not anticipate that being a hurdle though I really do not like Siuan and Leane and it has nothing to do with race.

18 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

100% a fact. For some it's a form of albinism.

To clarify, I'm not justifying casting only actors of African Descent to play Aiel characters. The vast majority of Aiel should look like Gingers, and make people ask how the hell they aren't lobsters.

That said, Elayne's Red + Gold hair isn't something we really find in reality, unless it's a dye job. 

It's rare but a natural hair color called Strawberry blonde. Hair can be an amazing array of colors. Skin color too. Norma Jeane Baker had naturally strawberry blonde hair as an example which many people don't know because of how famous she was as a bleached blonde.

In terms of casting as I see some not knowing who was casted here is a link to Wot Series

https://www.wotseries.com/wheel-of-time-cast/

There are definitely still some unreleased castings. Masema, Uno and Hurin or Uno/Hurin hybrid would be great. Also the actress cast for Elayne is perfect.

This was a teaser, not a trailer.

It is intended to basically show images and snippets of the show to generate interest. It has been extremely successful at that.

If you do even casual research, you would find that the story quite strongly adheres to the major events in the book.

They literally HAVE to create scenes to explain the world. I guess you could just have a bunch of super long monologues explaining the world. and channeling the taint, etc...

But instead they are going to show you that. Show you why a "Dragon Reborn" is something to truly fear, how he is half mad and deserves to be essentially put down like a dog by being gentled. I bet if we wrote down the Top 10 "events" in tEotW, ALL of them will be in the series, with the exception of Caemlyn.

I also struggle with how anyone could watch the scene with Rand, Mat and Perrin and not know that they have nailed these characters. And the production values are exceptional. 

Anyone thinking this is not going to be a MAJOR hit is not paying attention.

On 9/3/2021 at 7:07 AM, Thrasymachus said:

I kinda half expected them to start singing and dancing.  Wheel of Time: Bollywood Edition.

I realize you have been setting yourself up to hate the series no matter what but seriously that is the extent of your feedback?

I am a bit torn. I was so anxious to see the first trailer because I wanted to get an impression of how good it will be. It exceeded my expectations.

They are not changing the story in terms of major events but sort of getting there in slightly different paths like the early seasons of GoT did.

So now I am in a situation where I am not even sure I want to watch the next trailer. I sort of want to be unspoiled going forward.

Of course that is likely impossible.

So things I think will be in next trailer:

1. We will see portions of actual scenes with dialogue. We really only saw images in first trailer

2. I assume we will see Thom and Min and possibly Loial

3. Likely see the Whitecloaks in the next trailer

4. I think they might show a snippet of Tarwin's gap and the Eye but they may just keep this secret

5. I think we might see a flash inside the Ways

6. They might show some of the blight

7. They will show some of Fal Dara I would think

8. They will show maybe a bath or something to preview more sensuality

36 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What about this concerns you?

You have to remember - TV is a different medium from literature. Effective fantasy worldbuilding is much harder on TV because exposition on TV is hard to do without long, cheesy speeches. 

 

As we enter the Wheel of Time as readers, the Aes Sedai are the most powerful organization on the continent. They dominate politics and policy. They command fear and respect. They hunt down and capture male channelers. And we know all of this because Jordan tells us.

 

You can't just tell the TV audience, you have to show them. Putting the Tower at the center of S1 is smart - it gives the writers the ability to immediately help viewers understand important concepts: the Power, the Tower, the Amyrlin, the Hall, the ajahs, and the hunt for male channelers just to name a few. This is important, because getting to know about these things gives the audience the ability to understand the importance of the later shifts in this landscape. 

 

And it takes nothing away from the story to add Logain (which is the context in which we will see most of the Aes Sedai, I believe) who (as you'll remember) proclaims himself Dragon just before the start of Book 1 and is captured and gentled during the events of that book. In fact, portraying those events not only gives the writers the opportunity to develop a character who deserves more screen time. It also allows them to show the power of saidar and the reason why male channelers are feared. It gives them the chance to introduce the concept of the Dragon, why the Dragon is feared and hated, but also why he is loved and respected. It gives us the chance to see Aes Sedai attitudes toward the Dragon and their ideas for using him at the last battle.

 

So I'm just curious, why is focusing on the Aes Sedai a bad thing?

Agree 100%. Plus it allows a better arc for Rand. If people really see how "Dragon Reborns" need to be feared then it strengthens his entire story. Plus it allows the new viewer of the TV show to actually be surprised when Rand is revealed. And as I said in another post they will still be hitting all the major events so not sure how a little more focus on AS changes anything.

By the way, the trailer has 8.3 million views. This is going to be a hit for Amazon.

On 9/4/2021 at 2:24 AM, Sirkassad said:

So I've watched the trailer once, and immediately it looked PG-13 at best.  Then I see on Amazon's web page they give it a TV14 which backs up what I saw.  I don't claim to be a WoT expert (read the first book 20 years ago) but I'd be lying if I said this didn't turn me off somewhat.  I'd like to here from the WoT experts as to whether this series is in fact a young adult series and the trailer was accurate.  

TV-14 is MUCH different than PG-13. TV-14 allows nudity and sexual situations and bloody violence. It actually seems to be tougher on language than PG-13. Also, streaming TV is not rating shows per episode so only the first episode is TV-14 for sure but likely first 3. Rafe has also said they may do different versions with different ratings so that might happen as well.

In my view YA has nothing to with ratings. YA is typically about relationships especially FMM love triangles and that is not what WoT is.

11 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I consider GOT to be the gold standard for fantasy adaptations - at least until they ran out of story to adapt. The vast majority of changes, mostly in the form of cuts and character consolidations, were for the better. The point is that the showrunners stayed really true to the story for as long as they could.

 

I am expecting the same for WOTTV. There was plenty of bloat in the books that I’d love to cut. But stick to the dang story and I’ll be happy. If the show diverts its focus from the Dragon Reborn, except as an early misdirection, then it is straying from the story.

 

Everybody remembers Dark Tower. Don’t go Dark Tower.

There is literally nothing to suggest it diverts from the main story. 

I think I feel a need to push back on the "not following the books" bit.

Simply put that is sort of unknown in some ways but in general I feel it is BS. And not really thinking things through.

Lets review what we know in terms of plot:

1. The attack takes place on Winternight after the celebration and dancing not day before. (Not a big change arguably better)

2. The EF5 flee EF like in the books

3. They cross the bridge at TF like in the books.

4. Rand sees the fade on the road

5. Padan Fain visits EF

6. Thom does not.  Still at this point very very close to the books. Is moving the date of the attack and putting Thom a bit later that big of a deal.

7. They wind up in Shadar Logoth

8. Matt steals a tainted dagger. We may not see Mordeth but not truly confirmed. Maybe we see Fain encounter Mordeth which is narratively possibly stronger. 

9. They flee Shadar Logoth.  From the casting reports it seems likely they split in the same manner Eg/Perrin Rand/Mat/ Mo/Lan/Nyn. Eg and Perrin jump off the wall? Is this a horrible change?  Still very very close to the books. Major change-likely no Baerlon but we know we still get much of what happens there

10. Rand/Matt travel alone (likely to TV) meet the Grinwells, wind up in 4 Kings, meet Thom maybe before 4 Kings, anger some Whitecloaks, then likely have the same climax as book and Thom travels with them to TV. Bayle Domon likely cut.

11. Eg/Perrin travel together. Perrin meets Wolves. They meet the tinkers. Elyas may or not be part of it. They likely encounter Whitecloaks and possibly get rescued in the same way

12 Moiraine/Lan (likely after rescuing Eg/Perrin) meet up somehow with the group hunting Logain instead of just showing up at Caemlyn

13 Rand/Mat got to the Queens Blessing (maybe renamed) and meet Basel Gill and Loial. Moiraine and the others meet up at the Inn much like in the books likely after dropping off Logain (recaptured) 

14. So far this is really really close to the books

15. After this we know less. We know they use the Ways. We know they go to Fal Dara and it is pretty likely that they go into the Blight, there is the Eye (regardless of what EH think) and the fight at Tarwins gap and the reveal of Rand at the Dragon, We know Min is in Fal dara

16. We also likely get Fain stealing the horn and the start of the hunt.

17. Caenlyn and Elayne are pushed to Season 2 (replacing Cairihien?)

To me, just like in GoT early seasons they get to the same major events albeit through slightly different paths. But the major events are seemingly ALL there.

Major changes are loss of Caemlyn and likely Baerlon with the addition of Tar Valon which will have more impact for the show. in addition we might not see Elyas, Domon or Whitebridge, Min moved.

Why would they do this?

1. Budget...not enough Budget to show so many cities

2. So much exposition and internal monologue in the books that certain things have to be shown, like the taint, how dangerous "Dragon Reborns" are, more on the One Power, etc....

Seems to me that those thinking it is completely different than the books are barking up the wrong tree.

Rafe has said that it will be watchable by teenagers but we also know that there is nudity. One of the recent trends has been to rate individual episodes so some could be TV-14 and some TV-MA. I believe Rafe said at one point that there might be multiple versions of some episodes so it is possible they come out with some extended TV-MA episodes. I don't really care. What I saw feels like WoT and TV-14 is much more lenient than PG-13 so I suspect it will be adult enough. They have changed it now but the first few episodes of GoT were TV-14. 

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Yes, I suppose it works really well for someone who is not familiar with the source material. It works worse for someone who is already a fan, because you see a lot of changes. The trailer starts immediately with egwene being thrown off a cliff, and it has a few more sequences of that, something that's not in the books. And it follows with a lot of scenes of logain, which again are not from the books.

It's even worse for a fan who did not follow productiion and was not ready for the changes. My brother was quite unimpressed with the trailer, he complained a lot.

Probably that's what rafe was meaning by "gird your loins"

Much of the Logain stuff IS in the books though. We just do not see it. There are a LOT of concepts we learn through exposition, internal dialogue and even theory boards, but you have to show those things in a show. I am completely OK with what I have seen so far with just a few small things not connecting. And remember a longer trailer is coming and there is so much we haven't seen and we really haven't even seen actual dialogue yet just images really. Like EH seen you need viewers to be afraid of false (and real) Dragons. That never really happens in the books.  Even though he ultimately saves the world Rand is at best a dark gray character.

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Every time I think about it, the more I believe that we need to be made to fear Rand/the Dragon/LTT. If it was me, I would be working so that this story begins leading viewers to the conclusion that Rand is going to be the villain and that it will be up to the rest of the group to save the world from him. 

 

There are so many times in the books where Jordan talks about the fear of male channelers. But the impact of that is sort of muted by the fact that you've been rooting for Rand from the beginning of chapter One. People who aren't invested in the books don't have to have that same experience and I think it's smart to make those people fear male channelers just like the people of Randland do. The same goes for the Dragon.

 

We learn early on that it's Rand and so, once again we know we are rooting for the Dragon. But the people of Randland don't know that. They're terrified of the Dragon. He literally destroyed the world and unleashed the terror of insane male channelers on the world. What's he going to do for an encore?

 

And I think starting S1 with a fierce and at least slightly unhinged Logain is perfect in service of this. You get to see the savagery of saidin and how seemingly all-powerful sorceresses can be annihilated by it. It gives you the opportunity to put the moral question of what to do with people who are so dangerous front and center and immediately raises stakes. 

 

So later, when you start pulling on those same strings in Rand's arc, the stakes are raised naturally because now it's happening to someone you've come to care about. And with the fantasy-epic consuming public having Danerys's ending full in their minds, they will primed to believe that is where Rand is headed (whether they want him to or not).

 

So instead of seeing Rand through his own eyes, we see him through the eyes of someone who is emotionally invested in him. If you want Veins of Gold to have the same emotional payoff for viewers that it did for readers, I think that's how it must be played. 

Agree 100%. Rand IS scary if you really think about it and he starts so innocent. It is a great way for the series to go.

I am actually not sure I will watch the second trailer. I have seen enough to know it will be very good (maybe outside of Siuan/Leane, ugh) and since things are rearranged in a weird way it will just be spoilers at this point. I know things so well I would be able to piece together almost everything that happens.