johnnysd
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Posts posted by johnnysd
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1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:
Why would the Forsaken need the pool of saidin to free the Dark One? The Taint is immaterial to them, the Dark One protects them from it. All they should really need is a sa'angreal. Which would likely be even safer, as Aginor burned himself up trying to channel half of it, trying to wrest control of it from Rand. Meaning the giant Well that is the Eye lacks a buffer, where most angreal and sa'angreal have them.
The biggest problem with the Eye is that there's no good reason for the Shadow to be all that interested in it. It's not holding back the Blight or interfering with the Shadow's influence. The relics it protects, and even the storehouse of purified saidin are not directly useful to them, only by denying them to Team Light should they be of any interest at all. And what's the point of Ishy's repeated insistence that he's going to "blind the Eye of the World?" What does that even mean, regarding something that doesn't see? For that matter, why do young Borderlander warriors have a tradition of seeking the Eye? Just to chill with the Green Man for a minute?
I reckon what we'll see is the legend of the Eye increased, along with its accessibility and use to Aes Sedai. Include a legend that "to stand in sight of the Eye will reveal your true self" and a lot of minor plot holes can be sealed up, and make room for a bigger role for Logain in season one. Give the Aes Sedai a tradition that any male who can channel that proclaims themselves the Dragon Reborn must be brought to the Eye to be tested before being gentled, and you can drag him along with the Amryiln Seat to Fal Dara, and gives them a better excuse to be there. It gives a better reason for Borderlander youths to be risking their lives to seek it out. It gives Moiraine a better reason for suddenly switching destinations besides a few dreams (that could be a goad/trap, and in fact were) and a couple of years-old stories, after she learns that Logain has been captured. It gives a stronger motivation to the Shadow to want to "blind" it, so that the Dragon cannot be revealed to the Aes Sedai. And it can explain why Rand is so proficient with a Power he didn't even know he could use, when he overpowers Aginor, wipes out the Trolloc army at Tarwin's Gap, and confronts Ba'alzamon/Ishamael, as the effects of such revelation could be an "Avatar-state" like effect on him. And then, why later on, he's still fumbling around with the Power trying to learn.
Well the seals would be completely resistant to the True Power or anything tainted by the Dark one, or he could have broken out instantly.
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4 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:
Really like this thought to amplify the threat of the Forsaken and the potential magnitude of the Eye.
I'd keep the Aes Sedai as solely responsible for the idea the Eye is necessary to reseal the prison of the Dark One and that all is lost if the Dragon does not use the Eye just so. Leave it to Ishy to purport the Eye could free the DO and use that to set spurs as you suggest.
Sets up a nice climax at the Eye and then the Aes Sedai (Moi/Siuan) reactions to the depleted Eye but DO still active and maybe more Forsaken free.
Just so you know this is actually the real reason for them being there so it is not "new" for some reason Jordan decided to not reveal this until much later in the books
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2 hours ago, dssharp said:
I love this point and totally agree that the main focus MUST be the characters rather than checking endless boxes of places and events. A big reason GOT was so great we’re the fascinating characters. My biggest hope for a successful series is doing the characters really well.
I think everyone would agree with this but through the first 5 seasons or so GOT still hit almost every major event in the story I would expect WoT to do the same.
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2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:
When I think a little more about it, I could see “the Green Man is the only chance to save Mat if the Tower isn’t safe” being the plot line.
Do you consider Aginor/Balthamel indispensable?
No I could see doing it without them. You could create other situations that required Rand to channel and start to use the Eye and lead to Somesthas death and then the transition to Tarwins' Gap. But I think it would be better with them.
To me they add so much.
Here is what I would do. I would add scenes to the show with Ishamael and Aginor and Balthamel where he directs them to go to the eye and use it to fully free the Dark One and also mentioning that the Eye could also be used to reseal the DO's prison.
Then you could have some small dialogue added scenes to better explain why the good guys need to go to the Eye.
That could set up a truly epic episode where the Forsaken and Moiraine and company race to the Eye. The main group fighting off the blight while Aginor controls it. Then you could do the ending mostly as written and it would make complete sense.
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On 9/6/2020 at 8:01 AM, Elder_Haman said:
I don’t hate the Eye. But we have to remember that Jordan wasn’t certain that he would get to publish his entire masterpiece. He admittedly wrote the end to feel like an end. And the result is something that worked in the books but may not work as well on screen.
I don’t think they will get rid of the Eye entirely. But I do think the way they get there will change. I think the Green Man and the Foresaken will be eliminated entirely.
If it were me, the tension of the season will be in the realization that the Aes Sedai are dangerous to our heroes. I would stoke the tension between needing to heal Mat and being afraid that Rand will be gentled (like we see happen to Logain).
I would have Moiraine realize that the Tower isn’t safe and maybe settle on the Eye as the only other chance for Mat or something.
When Rand uses the power of the Eye (just to beat some shadow spawn), he ends up at the Gap. It can be a major revelation for the audience (“oh snap! He’s the Dragon!), ratchet up the tension (oh snap! Siuan is headed to Fal Dara too - Rand is gonna be gentled!), and flip expectations when Siuan turns out to be on team Rand.
I think if the show is going to work, they should always choose to focus on character ahead of plot. There’s more growth if the Eye is something that happens on the way to Fal Dara as opposed to being the destination.
But that’s just my $0.02
There are no wrong opinions but I cant even wrap my head around this one. Somestha IS the Eye of the World in essence so eliminating him would just be bizarre. Plus he is the last "good" link to the age of legends. Not to mention the horn, banner, seal, Tarwin's Gap fight against Ishamael. The vast majority of readers I think really like the eye but you hate it. I hate Dumai Well's so not every big fan like we are likes everything about the books. I think the question of Siuan gentling Rand is already there.
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Seems like there are a lot of major castings still not revealed.
Ishamael (obviously)
Bold just to see responses
This might not be so obvious. I can definitely envision a season 1 where Ishamael exists only in Rand’s dreams and not as overtly as in the book. If it is all voiceover, “Steve” could very well be Ishamael.I guess they could just show flame and shadow in a CGI face where the main quality is voice. Still needs to be cast for the fight at the Eye
Wouldn’t be surprised if they are cut entirely. (I really think they are going to make major changes to the ending). I think we have discussed this before. I know you hate the Eye.There will definitely be changes to the story, but to eliminate the climax that Jordan wrote seems outlandish. I would be interested in how you think the season will end and build to if the Eye is completely changed.
I could see them cutting one of them for cost savings but both make sense in the narrative. I know you hate the ending but based on some Rafe comments I doubt it is changed much except for maybe expanding Tarwin's Gap since it is one of Rafe's favorite scenes and one he wants to see the most.
Borderlanders: Agelmar at a minimum but also likely Ingtar, Uno and Masema
I agree that Agelmar has to be there. I doubt we meet Uno or Masema until season 2.
I have always thought Season 1 will end with the start of the hunt for the horn, but that also means a lot of casting. That said I think they are filming episode 9 like in October so the important parts, Ingtar, Anaiya, Masema, Uno, Hurin? might not even be cast yet
Elayne: Just cant believe they cut here from Season 1
I absolutely believe they cut her.I just can't see it. Kate Franz time on set roughly aligns with when they would have filmed Elayne, and they are in Caemlyn so I think she is there but kept secret well. I expect we get a big casting announcement this Wednesday when the book read ends.
Morgase: Possible cut, they could possibly skip the entire Morgase plot but I doubt it since the Whitecloaks are in
This is an interesting one. I would think Morgase has to be there. Although I could see a scenario where they rewrite Camelyn to focus on Rand’s interaction with Logan.
Seems like they are going to show Logain being captured so I do expect them to focus on Logain and Rand meeting. Meeting Elayne, Gawyn/Galad, Morgase and Elaida seems so important though. Lots of people though to hide as being cast so maybe all of them take place in Season 2 some where
Byrne:
Unnecessary. He can be cast later. In fact, it’s probably preferable.Agree
Elaida:
This one for sure. I’m wondering whether she’s already been cast, but they are playing coy.
Maybe if they do show it all but I don't see Elaida without the others so maybe all of this is not there.
"Surprise" AIEL: Likely Aviendha but possibly Rhuarc
Not sure why people think it’s Aviendha. I see that as very unlikely. Rhuarc is a possibility. But like I said in my post above, probably the dying maidens who speak to the Tinkers.
Why would it be unlikely? Rhuarc would be a minor surprise, or Bain and Chiad, but I think that they travel to Tar Valon before using the ways, so moving the Aiel encounter from Book 2 and having Aviendha would be a great gift to book fans.
Verin: Can wait until Season 2 (she probably will be a name actress-hugely pivotal role)
Agree. They’ll wait until season 2 for Verin. Please, please, please cast Margo Martindale...Verin is a reasonably demanding role athletically. I think Margo or Imelda Stuanton would both be great but they need someone in shape for the role
Green Man: I think it's Steve to be honest
I think the Green Man will be eliminated.
I think the odds of cutting The Green Man is literally zero.
Gitara Morosso
I agree she’ll be in it. May not be an announced casting though since I suspect we only see her once.
Lews Therin -Youd think they HAVE to show the prologue at some point.
Prologue won’t show up until season 2, I’m betting. So no Lews Therin.Possibly. Could see it as part of the New Spring flashbacks too as exposition
Tigraine quite possibly
Nah. Unless there’s a shot of her corpse.Galad/Gawyn : Possibly composite?
Probably a composite. And probably not in season 1. -
1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:
I personally think they will just drop the Luc/Isam part and just make him Slayer as his connection to Rand and Lan isn't important to the story. Personally, he seemed like an interesting character especially being Gitara sent him to the Blight but the writers would basically have to invent backstories unless there are unused notes we've never heard. Unfortunately, I expect Slayer to be Slayer. It occurred to me just now that Slayer's dual identity was probably a left over of the WOT trilogy that RJ couldn't kill off.
But if he is just slayer then he can't be Lord Luc because Perrin would know instantly. Full disclosure, never liked the whole thing I would rather than focus more on say Sheriam that parts of three or four episodes on this. I might instead just have a good portion of the Two Rivers looking up to the Whitecloaks, and being manipulated by Fain and following them as it will be a much more straightforward and interesting plot line.
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4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:
There was mention of a "surprise Aiel" by the show runners.
My guess is Rhuarc, being introduced with Gaul leaving the 3 fold land. Setting up for season 3.
Oh I think the surprise is Aviendha, though Rhuarc would be second choice. I am not sure they will keep Luc/Isam will be really difficult to portray on screen
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Seems like there are a lot of major castings still not revealed.
Ishamael (obviously)
Aginor/Balthamel (one or both)
Borderlanders: Agelmar at a minimum but also likely Ingtar, Uno and Masema
Elayne: Just cant believe they cut here from Season 1
Morgase: Possible cut, they could possibly skip the entire Morgase plot but I doubt it since the Whitecloaks are in
Byrne:
Elaida
"Surprise" AIEL: Likely Aviendha but possibly Rhuarc
Verin: Can wait until Season 2 (she probably will be a name actress-hugely pivotal role)
Green Man: I think it's Steve to be honest
Gitara Morosso
Lews Therin -Youd think they HAVE to show the prologue at some point
Tigraine quite possibly
Galad/Gawyn : Possibly composite?
Thoughts?
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20 hours ago, mistborn82 said:
I can see that but I think a few scenes with Uuo and Mat will show the swear vocab.
Possibly but not until the last episode, they need to establish the level of cursing earlier
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1 hour ago, Sammuel said:
Or she could try over using them in the wrong place, like kids do when they first learn them. But is was also her mom that said she had a saucy tongue.
To be honest I thought in the books one of the sort of inside jokes was that Elayne cursed almost as well as UNO, I don't remember her being inexperienced.
One fun way to handle cursing and to emphasize the different Ages in the story would be to have the Forsaken curse using modern curse words, but keep the Randlanders using the WoT curse words, and the Forsaken can make comment on it
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54 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:
I hope they keep the made up swearing as context usually means you can figure out what it corresponds to. Also it would be hilarious for Elayne's inept swearing and I don't think the real words would have the same effect. I won't not watch it if they change the swearing but it will be jarring.
My guess is they go with both
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3 hours ago, mistborn82 said:
You have to show Dumais Wells to show why the power is dangerous and people fear it. Maybe you don't show it to the level described in the books but you need enough to show the danger, also why Perrin is disillusioned.
We can agree to disagree on that one.
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2 hours ago, mistborn82 said:
I say make it TV-MA just for freedoms sake but knowing that the first season is closely to the low end. From season 2 on, which hopefully they have, it's a hard TV-MA. e.g. if you show any of the torture of Egwene, even though not graphic, I think warrants higher ratings and you get more into the close combat after EotW. You can't use camera tricks or lighting every battle and you certainly can't do the horror of Dumais Wells with other than TV-MA.
Dumai Wells is the one thing I hope they don't show. I hate that part of the books (well aware for some reason its many favorite) but that can be shown better by sound and reaction that NC-17 gore. And anyone that thinks they will not show Egwene being tortured is deluding themselves.
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42 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:
My point is that we don't even really need to see it, at least, not in the incredibly graphic ways that modern TV-MA series, particularly the more graphic ones like GoT, The Boys, etc. Focusing on character shots and their reactions to events. Focusing on Rand working to maintain his composure at Dumai's Wells, Min burying her face in his coat, while Perrin heaves in the middle-ground, and in the blurry background explosions and the shadowy hints of bodies flying around, rather than having the shot centered on Aiel warriors being disintegrated, flayed and pulverized. The former would be far more in line with the flavor and maturity level of the books as written. The latter is what many fans imagine, and want visually inserted into the story.
I'm expecting most of the nudity to simply be not explicit, if they follow the tone of the books. Back-shots of topless women, for example, rather than full-frontal. Sex is non-existent in the books until Mat starts hooking up with Melindhra. The early nudity is either incidental or ritual, and neither require any kind of explicit showing. Put it this way: the books never tell us or describe to us in any way to allow us to infer from those of the women whose breasts were definitely exposed, which has the biggest nipples. Or the smallest. Or whose sag when unsupported and whose are perky. Or whether they point out, or down or up. Or if anybody has one boob a different size or shape than the other. We don't know how well any of the men are endowed. Or what the state of their pubic or body hair is. There's nothing anywhere that would allow us to make educated guesses about any of that.
If the books don't have it, the show doesn't need it. If they put it in, it's just gratuitous fan-service.
They could do that. With nudity being required even of the main leads it is very very very unlikely you get that. It is much more likely for it to be on the GOT side of the spectrum than the TV-14 side you want. It is likely to be multiple versions and if there is only one version you can choose whether you want to watch or not. But the Amazon side probably wants it to be more adult. The 2 really successful fantasy shows that garnered a lot of media attention was GOT an The Witcher. Not hard to do the math
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25 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:
Please quote the "graphic violence" from the Eye. How graphic any of the violence is, especially in the Eye, has more to with one's imagination of the scenes described than with their descriptions. Even the Green Man killing Balthamel, perhaps the most graphic death of the first book, is hardly graphically described. There's no bursting organs or splattering blood or crunching bone as the Green Man makes vines and fungus grow through his body. Ratedreads.com, a website which offers guidance on books for parents and others regarding the depictions of violence and sex, lists tEoTW as "mild." Even the worst gore in this series is mild compared to some of the stuff you'll get in Steven King or Martin. I think too many people mistake the intensity and atmosphere of some scenes for their graphicness, and substitute their imaginations for what's actually written.
EoTW is definitely less explicit than other books. In fact the books become more explicit as the characters grow and become more adult. For a TV show though they need to choose a tone and level of content that they will use throughout the series.
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4 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:
I don't see them doing two versions. That's a lot of editing work at the very least. And it can't just be cuts between the two making the difference, because it'll affect run-time and commercial slots, particularly if one's intended to be syndicated.
Regarding nudity, time was, in the US, you could get away with ass-shots and topless shots and not trigger an "R" rating (this was before there really were TV ratings and before PG-13 was around). They just had to be brief, ~ a second, and not be involved in a sex act, and not be more than one or two per movie. Rafe may decide to push that envelope back in that direction a bit more. Quick flashes of Egwene and/or Nynaeve full-frontal when they're stripped for their Accepted's test, for example. Ass shots of the boys, and a few of the girls/side characters like Aviendha when she flees from Rand, Melindhra when she and Mat jump out of bed upon being attacked by Darkhounds, or Perrin after waking up buck naked in Berelain's tent.
In my opinion, I'm fine with that. US TV and movies have gotten way too culturally accepting of graphic violence and gore, while remaining very prudish, indeed getting moreso, regarding ritualistic or casual, i.e., non-sexual nudity. I don't have any problems with my kids seeing that kind of brief nudity, as long as it's not just gratuitous or distracting, and I'm there with them. There's nothing "wrong" or "dirty" about the human body, after all. Graphic depictions of sex, on the other hand, would make that quite a bit more uncomfortable. Sex is for adults. And while I'm fine with them knowing about sex in general, there's a lot more they need to learn and understand before they're ready to be titillated in that way. Besides, watching sex scenes, even obscured and tame ones, with one's parents is never very comfortable for anybody. Even if the kid is old enough to be watching such things.
Agree with you on the imbalance in the US between graphic violence and nudity. I worked in Germany for a while and they have no issue with nudity at all but violence is very strictly related.
The thing I keep coming back to is that a family-friendly version of WoT will probably drive less new Prime subscriptions and drive the same level of media attention as one in the GOT/Withcher range
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44 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:
I think the key question here is whether they want it to be a show people can sit down with their families to watch it, or whether it's one of those "wait for the kids to go to bed" kind of shows. For some context on my position, I have an 8 year old son and a 10 year old daughter. Am I going to be able to let them watch this show with us, when it finally airs?
I have no real problems with them reading the books. In fact, I've already read them tEotW, and regularly cajole the oldest to pick up tGH. (She's into the Wings of Fire series at the moment). I'd love to be able to watch the show with them, but if they go the GoT or The Boys route in terms of explicit violence, gore and sex, that's not gonna happen. And that would be a shame.
In my opinion, the books are suitable reading for anybody with the capacity to read and understand them, from 8 to 88, and have been great entertainment for those of nearly all maturity levels of reading. Really, the only reason it might not be suitable for the youngest of readers is not because of the violence or graphic depictions of horrific things or of sex, because those sorts of things aren't really there, but because the emotions and relationships of the characters are too complex for them to understand.
If the show goes more "mature," they're cutting off an audience that the books naturally have. There are 12 and 13 year-olds who've read and enjoyed the books. Are we comfortable telling those younger fans that they don't get to watch the show, because the things which are left to the reader's imagination are made explicit in the TV show?
Which isn't to say it should be a kid's show. But I don't consider the Lord of the Rings or Avengers to be "kids shows" either, and they manage to keep things at a level where all but the youngest of kids can watch it with their parents just fine. They may not catch or understand everything, but the content doesn't exclude them either.
Well we know there is nudity and that Rafe wants it to be "accessible". Many think 2 versions, but I do not think any version would be lower than TV-14 and likely on the high end of that so it will be a parental decision. Like I said if there is one version it will be like a lower end TV-MA. If there are two versions the second would likely be TV-14. I do not see them doing an all ages version in any form.
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20 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:
But you can certainly show its dangerousness and brokenness without being explicit and showing the specific sorts of things that garner the mature ratings. And that can often be more engaging for viewers than explicitly showing what's going on. As Jordan himself put it, "He strains to hear a whisper, who refuses to hear a shout."
No argument but it needs to be used sparingly to be effective. I could definitely see them going your way, I could see them adding sexposition and gratuitous nudity just "because" or anything in between. Rafe's comments do seem to point to 2 versions. If they do that it is likely the TV-MA version will be more adult than if they went with just a single TV-MA version. Would seem to be a good compromise if Amazon was insisting on GOT level content.
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2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:
Isn't the opening scene Rand walking down the Quarry Road with Tam? I imagine the prologue has been cut, or will show up later on as a dream sequence or as Rand begins dealing with his madness. The Emond's Field raid on Winternight will probably be more chaotic than gory. I dunno what the opening credits shots will be, but if they include any scenes of characters at all, they will most likely be taken from appropriately dramatic shots taken from the episodes, set to music, and probably not depict some kind of narrative of their own.
And it's worth mentioning that violence against clear monsters (like Trollocs) is usually not rated as being as mature as violence against identifiable people. That can also hold for people wearing masks, such as at Dumai's Wells. So even showing the absolute slaughter there, which I agree really should be pretty brutal, can still be done in a way that preserves the TV-14 rating, if they want to go that route.
What the books depict isn't as important for age-ratings as how it's depicted. Graphic descriptions of horrific things like death, dismemberment, and torture will get you mature rating. But mentioning those things happening while describing character reactions to them will skew your rating younger. Jordan is nowhere very graphic in his descriptions of the horrors he gives us, but by being more vague, he both brings his age-ratings for his books down to YA status, and allows the reader's imagination to fill in a lot of the more gory gaps.
If there's one thing we all should have learned about the Wheel of Time series so far, it's that the way it is written allows a great deal of leeway in how the reader imagines what is depicted in the books, and indeed encourages that imagination. In adapting it to a new medium, which obviates certain uses of one's imagination, one could choose to be more explicit, or choose to hew towards the way the books are written, using atmosphere, character reactions, and quick cutaways to leave plenty of room for the viewer's imaginations to fill in the gaps. Thematically, I feel like the latter would be more appropriate as a true homage to the series. Terrible things happen, and we know they happen, but they are never very explicitly depicted.
I can understand that POV but I am not sure I would go there. It's a dangerous, dirty, broken world and I think you need to show that. The world is in many ways darker than GOT. I would make it close to GOT level in terms of sex and violence. I think the show will feel real that way. What you describe will make it too non adult and not to be taken seriously. If it comes across as fantasy characters doing magic which a lower rating is more likely to it will fail. if it comes across as actual people in a dangerous world some of whom can do magic it will succeed.
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28 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:
That might open the show. I still think we will have a pre-credit opening with Gitara. I'll bet you a shiny, new quarter.
Sure. Pretty certain you will lose. In fact I think there is even a pic of the first page of the script for episode one showing this scene
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2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:
If I'm not mistaken, Rafe has already said that they won't be starting with the Prologue.
I bet that it will be some combination of the end of the Aiel War, Rand's birth, and Gitara's foretelling to open the show.
Pretty sure Rafe has confirmed Rand on Tam and the Fade as first scene.
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1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:
I think this is spot on.
My big hope is that they consciously avoid the gratuitous and focus on the story. As written, the book is closer to TV-14 than to TV-MA.
The book is TV-MA (strongly) written in a TV-14 way. Rafe wants it seem "adult". Well the WoT as TV-14 will not seem adult at all and could completely undermine a lot of the core elements of the show especially magic making it feel more like a teen show. I will like it either way I suspect but I think it will be more successful being closer to GOT and Witcher than a CW show. And many thought the Witcher was more of a young adult show itself.
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Just now, Sammuel said:
Out of curiosity, do you think they could possibly hold back the identities of Elayne and Min until the air date? If they got big names, the reveals might be kind of fun but kind of distracting.
I say that if that's what they decide to do, they do it well. It would piss off everyone if they cast a female actress to play her and then pull a "Let the right one in" and just say she's trans. They'll have an uphill battle to win people over.
Same if they decide to make Aviendha a guy and have that character have a loving sibling relationship with Elayne.
I think they could save some of the castings until air date but seems sort of unlikely. They may save the reveals of Elayne, Aviendha, and Min till close to airdate to build some hype. Also as far as know no forsaken has been revealed yet either and there should be at least 3 in season 1
What major castings are still to be announced?
in Wheel of Time TV Show
Posted
Too much fundamental change to the story IMO. I doubt they change the Eye very much if at all from the books