1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

@SammuelI think people are trying to make Min transgender based solely on the dresses like a boy thing unless I missed something official. Whereas Min just doesn't play by society roles and appearances of women in that world. If anything, I could see them giving Min more action scenes based on the fact she's not a shy retiring lass. I also think making Min transgender would do a disservice to her character.

I do NOT want Min to be TG. I would hate the change. However certain things point to it.

1. Min is in season 1 (Rafe has confirmed)

2. Elayne, Min and Aviendha are all in but Rand's relationship will be polyamorous

3. Rand and the girls (B/G). the girls (G/G) is polyamorous but adding (B/G/T) more so

4. Brandon Sanderson has said that most fans will hate one change. Well since then with every casting it is obvious that they are cutting almost nothing, and the Min change would be something Brandon would hate and fans would hate

5. Min is still not announced (may never be)

When I just look at all this, it's why I think that. But I WOULD hate it.

9 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

It'll be TV-MA but depends on how MA it is. Like, I've watched several R movies that only have 1 or  2 F-bombs and some blood, If they don't use the full breath of MA that's fine too but I hope they don't go the Carnival Row route where they seemingly put sex scenes in a few of the episodes just because they could.

I had forgotten about Carnival Row in my write up above. It could point to a more explicit show but I do think there will be multiple versions. Maybe even a TV version (maybe a year staggered) and a streaming version.

I think there are probably even within the WoT production crew differences of opinion and then it needs to be balanced against Amazon's own wishes.

In terms of Amazon, there does not seem to be a prevalence of gratuitous nudity in their original series even in very adult shows like The Boys despite tons of very sexual situations. On the other hand, the two most successful fantasy shows GOT and The Witcher have TONS of nudity and "sexposition". I doubt Amazon has not noted the correlation. Also, keep in mind that they are also doing a LOTR TV show and it would make sense to keep the PG-13 element that the movies had.

If the show were on HBO or Starz it would definitely be very sexual and tons of nudity. But even Netflix seems to be shying away from nudity in their shows, sort of like Amazon.

In many shows it now seems more acceptable to show male nudity than female nudity probably as a reaction to exploitation of women.

Rafe has said that he wants the show to be "adult, but accessible". He has also said that if something is really adult in the show there might be alternative ways to watch that episode in a more family friendly way. The casting has been very diverse and I think sexual orientation will be very diverse and well represented as well in the show. He has said that there would be "pillow friends out the wazoo" and that Rands love life will not be polygamous but polyamorous.

Now we know outside of Rosamund that most of the main characters will require nudity. 

The initial write ups seem to make it a point to appeal to women.

So in the end I think that Amazon in a bold move might actually have two versions of the show, one TV-MA and one TV-14 with the TV-14 one maybe syndicated as well to more restrictive markets.

From what Rafe has said in his vision I don't think they are going to show a lot of frontal female nudity and explicit sex scenes. I think we will see a lot of butts both male and female, side boob, and mostly bra and strategically placed sheet sex, with maybe some very brief boobs. I don't see them going full frontal, and I suspect if they do it will more likely be male than female. There will be male-male sexual relationships which are only broadly hinted at in the books. My personal theory is that Rafe has transgendered Min.

However, it is also possible than Amazon will push more for the GOT and Witcher appeal, so if they do create an adult and a "more accessible" version, the TV-MA version might have much more nudity and sexual scenes that are either extended scenes or scenes that could be cut entirely.

I am sure it is a bit of a tug of war. The interesting thing about WoT is that it is sort of an X-rated, NC-17 show told from a PG-13 standpoint so they can do the show successfully at any point in that spectrum.

3 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

It's given that Siuan is in season one if only because there's an episode called The Flame of Tar Valon and Leane, her Keeper is cast. But Elaida or Verin might not be.  

 

I'm not sure we'll be getting other big castings, because it can't be easy to make big name actors who stay constantly booked to commit to a decade long recurring role. I'm not really expecting anyone I'd recognize for Verin, Siuan, or Elaida. But the Forsaken are killed off within a season or two, and probably more likely to interest a bigger name. 

I meant major more in terms of within the story than the actor portraying them. I would tend to agree the recognizable actor/acctress names are all out there but who knows?

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I would disagree, for a few reasons.  For one, it's called the Eye of the World, but where's the eye?  Eyes are for seeing, but nothing about the Eye in the books has anything to do with revealing, showing or otherwise making apparent, anything at all, really.  It's a pool of saidin that's concealing a seal of the Dark One's prison, the Dragon's banner, and the Horn of Valere.  And it is itself concealed in a bizarre way.  It may as well be called the Navel of the World as the Eye.

 

And Moiraine's justification for suddenly switching destinations is...thin, to say the least.  A years-old rumor and a few bad dreams.  There's no reasone to think that the threat to the Eye is imminent, and indeed, the Forsaken only find it at all because of tracking Mat's dagger.  If the Emond's Field gang hadn't gone, it would still have been hidden.

 

I've said it before, and I'll likely say it again.  TEotW is a good intro to the characters and their origins and personalities.  But it's plot is weird and confusing, with a lot of early-bookisms and plot holes that could stand to be cleared up.  Personally, I'd rather see a badass Tarwin's Gap scene where Rand does stuff on a scale we don't really see again until he's holding Callandor, or at Maradon, than some scaled back version so we don't have to deal with inconsistent abilities and Power levels.

There are many easy explanations for it being called tEOTW.

1. The pool of saidin is the eye within the sanctuary

2. The eye of the world is an oasis surrounded by the blight, so it is the eye of the blight similar to the eye of a hurricane,

3. You only see the Eye in cases of extreme need

4. It is the last view ("eye") into the Age of Legends

5. It is the place where the Dragon Reborn is first truly seen, prophecy or not. Prophecies can't be omniscient or someone would have just offed Rand 15 years earlier

6. The eye is the first place that Rand sees saidin uncorrupted stemming from light and the true power connected to the dark  

7. The eye is the first place we see that the forsaken are free

I could go on probably but I think that's enough.

What is it that you don't want to see instead of Tarwins Gap

Also again Moiraine consistently says that anything the dark one wants she opposes:

1. All of the boys have Ishamael telling them that they will not control the eye

2. Jain Farstrider told the Ogier that the Dark one wanted the eye

3. The aiel came to say the Dark one wanted the eye

When Moiraine hears all that she realizes it can't be coincidence and realizes she needs to go there, even if not exactly sure why

Tarwins Gap is important because it stops a second trolloc war, brings spring. and deals such a blow to the Dark One that the blight actually recedes. It is in my view incredibly important.

20 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

I like the idea or some variation of it. Like others have said, you need a plausible for Rand to basically destroy an army with stuff he doesn't understand. He doesn't really gain any sort of control until book 5. You need to explain that heartbeat of control and because Taveren won't work for a wide audience.

We can disagree. His inability to know exactly how he is doing stuff is an issue all the way to book 5 so if it is part of the show as well there will be no issue with this.

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

This is pretty damn good.

It's horrible and would alter and damage the story of tEOTW.  There is NO doubt and should never be that either Rand, at or Perrin is the DR. It is at the very core of the books. It is also not difficult to understand why they go to the Eye at all. I am OK and expect deviations but this would be show crippling.

2 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

You can keep Tarwin's Gap and avoid the power-creep plothole if you play up the Eye as something more than what it was in the books: a mere pool of purified saidin.  Add a little legend that says standing in the sight of the Eye will reveal your true self.  Tweak things a little more, say that Moiraine learns of Logain declaring himself the Dragon Reborn while escaping the Two Rivers, instead of his being captured and taken to Tar Valon via Caemlyn, and you have a somewhat more substantial reason to suddenly switch destinations than a two year old game-of-telephone story, and a couple of bad dreams.  Unsure that she's found the Dragon, she decides to set off for the Eye to be sure, instead of risking being humiliated if she shows up in Tar Valon with a boy who's not the actual Dragon Reborn.

 

That way, Rand's display of Power and control at the Eye against Aginor, Tarwin's Gap against the army and Ishamael's dreamshard becomes a teaser for the levels of Power he will eventually attain.  Under the influence of the Eye, he'd be a kind of avatar for the Dragon's soul, possessing all his possible Power and skill.  But once that saidin's used up and the power of the Eye is broken, he's just Rand again, and has to learn to channel just like anybody else would.

Not a fan.  I would HATE using the eye to be anything other than it is in the boks. I think the Eye is fine as it is, the vast majority do not hold the same ambivalence and confusion with regards to the Eye.

4 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

If you keep Tarwin's Gap as apparently they are, I think it's gets scaled back alot because you can't have that massive a smackdown and then not again until near the end of the series.

Falme is at least as epic

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

That's clearly not what I'm saying. But tv is a different medium. The point is that RAND doesn't know he is the Dragon Reborn until he holds Callandor.

 

 

Oh he KNOWS way earlier than that, mostly after TEOTW and definitely after Falme, but he doesn't accept it until he does something of his own accord to prove it.

11 hours ago, Harldin said:

I cannot for the life of me work out how anyone who has read EOTW thinks anyone but Rand is the main Protagonist and once they start talking about the Dragon Reborn it took me about 5 secs to work out it was Rand. Every chapter in EOTW where Rand is present is told from his POV. 
He is the first character we see once the story proper starts and that is normally a pretty big sign in storytelling.

Im with you but it does seem the TV show does want to keep it a little mysterious and without all the POVs they might be able to manage that somewhat.

Update: I found the quote:

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

This will be controversial, I'm sure. But if I'm one of the writers I get rid of Tarwin's Gap entirely.

 

I do this for a few reasons: (1) on every re-read it becomes clear to me that Jordan tacked Tarwin's Gap on just in case the book was going to have to stand alone. It's not really necessary - as cool and fun as it is; (2) if there's going to be a big battle between Rand and Ishamael/Ba'alzamon, there should only be one and it should happen at Falme; (3) the tv series will be better served by building a little mystery into the question of the Dragon - is it Rand? Tarwin's Gap pretty brutally undermines that; and (4) the tv series is also better served by not allowing Rand to decimate an entire army of Trollocs at the end of season 1. Allowing for the massive power creep while simultaneously keeping the tension high is going to be tough. Tarwin's Gap might break the tension for the whole series.

 

 

Agreed. That's why I put it in season 3 along with tSR (which I think is easier to condense than tGH).

I don't want to search for it but Rafe said that the thing he most wanted to film was Tarwin's gap, so I suspect it is not cut.

I am not sure even if they try that the mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is can be sustained too long and is shattered no matter how you do the Eye of the World  and his power at Tarwin's Gap is explained by the pool of Saidin anyway.

15 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I think this is 100% correct. If they intend to spend any time at all with the Tinkers, there's no way that you're getting anywhere near the end of book 2.

 

 

I may not have been super clear in my original post  - I mean starting slow in terms of who uses magic and in what circumstances. So like EotW, Moiraine will do the vast majority of the channeling. And where anyone else is doing it purposefully, it will be very clear who it is.

 

But yes, I think that there will be a ton of magic used. Arresting visuals will be one of the keys to hooking people on the first few episodes.

 

 

That's an interesting thought. I'll have to think about it more, but if you expand to say 10 episodes for season 2 it could be done. Though it might not allow for much time with the Seanchan.

I agree on limited use. Moiraine will be the primary caster in most of season 1, but they may hint at someone healing Bela, and we will start to see Egwene and Nynaeve start to channel, maybe even Nynaeve's war of will with Siuan. But that will all just be preparation for Rand to unleash at TEOTW and Tarwin's Gap.

If the end of EOTW happens in episode 7, then in Episode 8 you could finish most of the Tar Valon storyline and maybe the beginning parts of Rands quest maybe ending with Fain and the Myrdraal Then I think you could easily do the rest of the Great Hunt in say 4 episodes and Dragon Reborn in 4 episodes maybe with a supersized episode or 2 in there. It's tough though 8 episodes for just TGH seems too much unless they bring other plotlines forward, but 4 hours seems not quite enough for The Dragon Reborn. 

On 7/17/2020 at 8:28 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Baerlon is a location that you can film by shooting your Emond's Field set from different angles. In addition to using some existing Czech country and architecture, they might need one set and a few CGI shots. I don't think it is prohibitively expensive.

I am not sure if you watch it but The Alienist is amazing at using CGI to recreate NYC in 1897. It could be used for Baerlon effectively and I hope they use it to make the cities really feel epic in WOT something GOT never quite accomplished.

Rafe has said that he's not cutting Elayne or Min or Aviendha (though it will be polyamorous not polygamist)

I struggle with what they might do with Gawyn, Galad and Morgase. If you have Elayne than you sort of need them for her arc plus Galad is half brother to Rand. They might think of merging the two boys but I dont think that would work well.

They have cast Valda so it's quite possible they keep Morgase plotline relatively intact too.

Really not sure where they do. I do think they are changing the Caemlyn sequence though

On 7/8/2020 at 10:55 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Lots of people see season one extending well into tGH. I don't see it - casting decisions, episode titles, and leaked set photos notwithstanding. And more importantly, I think that if the show is going to be the best that it can be, it needs to stick to Book 1 for season 1.

 

I say "the best that it can be" because there is simply no way for a tv series - no matter how well done - to be a scene-for-scene duplication of the books. It's not possible and would also suck. But a truly great show will preserve Jordan's world building, main characters, and plot. It needs to be written to be an engaging, entertaining show for people who have not read the books. That, in turn, means that it has to be structured and paced for a television audience.

 

Amazon doesn't want just another show. They are looking for Emmys and "Game of Thrones" type buzz. The source material can give it to them if executed correctly. Here are 5 reasons why sticking mostly to book one is the best choice:

 

(1) BUYING TIME

Special effects, makeup, costumes, set design. These things take time. Each time you add a location, these issues come into play. Jordan's world is vast. The various ways the One Power is utilized is going to require thousands of man hours of special effects work. Not to mention the careful planning required to make sure that the various production elements are flexible enough to accommodate the addition of multiple cultures, new fantasy elements, and power creep. 

 

By sticking to book one, the producers limit the number of production elements. This will allow them to get these few elements just right and allowing the design team time to get the new elements right too. Think about it this way - would you rather rush ahead to the battle of Falme? Or would you rather have the special effects for that battle carefully developed and redeveloped over the course of a couple of years? Patience will pay huge dividends.

 

(2) ACCESSIBILITY

One of the problems with fantasy tv adaptations is that they aren't accessible to fans outside the genre. Game of Thrones succeeded by keeping the fantastic elements mostly to the sidelines. That's really not an option for the Wheel of Time. What is an option is introducing the fantasy elements slowly - gradually allowing viewers to get accustomed to the fantastic elements. Fortunately, in this regard the writers can simply follow Robert Jordan's lead.

 

New viewers will begin in a familiar place a quaint village where everyone seems pretty normal. They then get to learn about the "rules" of this new world alongside the Emond's Fielders as they flee from a supernatural attack. By sticking to Eye of the World, writers can allow viewers to grow in their knowledge of the world along with the main characters.

 

(3) MORE CHARACTER - LESS EXPOSITION

This is closely related to (2)...

 

Characters are the key to good television. A gripping plot is good - necessary even. But without characters that viewers can invest in, a show simply can't be great. Sticking to Book One is the best vehicle for doing this, because it allows the writer to focus on really developing the Emond's Field five.

 

As the group runs for their lives, viewers will get to learn who these people are and become connected with them. The characters know just as little about what's happening to them as the viewers do (think of "Walking Dead" or "Stranger Things"), so when the viewer encounters something foreign - like a Trolloc - the character is learning about it at the same time the viewer is. 

 

But viewers also want to understand how the characters relate to one another, how they are different from one another, and where they are in conflict. The farther the writers try to push the plot, the less time there is for slow moments where the characters can interact with one another and the more time that must be devoted to exposition - explaining why things are happening instead of experiencing them.   

 

(4) PLOT & PACING

Eye of the World paces perfectly over 8 episodes as a horror/thriller. The first several episodes are simply about staying alive. First, as a group and then (after Shadar Logoth) separately. Then, when the group reunites in Camelyn it becomes about keeping Mat alive. It's simple and straightforward - not much thinking required about what is happening.

 

That, in turn, allows for time to set up the mysteries, plots, and unanswered questions that will serve to keep people intrigued. Writers should want viewers asking questions: (Who is this Dragon guy? Is he good or bad? Is it Rand? or Mat? Or Perrin? What are Moiraine's motives? Is Nynaeve right to distrust her?) They should want viewers to be worried when they find out that Rand can channel. (He's going to go crazy! He's going to turn evil! He's going to be gentled!)

 

If people who are new to the series aren't buzzing about these types of questions, the writers will have missed a huge opportunity...

 

(5) NO NEED FOR SPEED

Many people look at the sheer volume of the written work and assume that writers must do two books at a time to avoid a 13 or 14 season series. But that's just not true at all.

 

First, the length of Jordan's prose is not a good indicator. Jordan is overly descriptive. What he takes 5 pages to describe exists instantly on screen. Jordan also spends a good amount of time inside characters heads, something that it will be up to the actors to depict. And there are numerous vignettes and side scenes that will undoubtedly be cut from a tv adaptation.

 

More importantly though, the later books are much more easily condensed. Plot lines can be tightened to where Mat's time in Ebou Dar which takes place over the course of three books can easily be handled in two or three episodes. It is perfectly feasible to not go much beyond EotW in Season One and yet still complete the series in 7 or 8 seasons.

 

Besides, what fan of the books wouldn't want Season 1 to end with Padan Fain escaping with the Horn?

 

What do y'all think?

I personally think that they are going to do all of EOTW and a portion maybe a third of TGH. My personal theory is that Nynaeve and Egwene did not travel to the Eye and the Tar Valon stuff of TGH is mostly done in Season 1.

That said, today's casting announcement sort of settles any argument about 2 books in the first season since it seems like they are not cutting pretty much anything significant from EOTW. Almost everything will be there in season 1.

I don't really agree with Point 2.  Several reasons:

1. Most people I know LOVED the magic in GOT, probably more than the showrunners did

2. GOT has made people much more open to fantasy not named LOTR

3. In the past magic was always presented as over the top camp. WOT TV show will not do that. It will be presented as just part of the world. And there will be tons of magic in the first episode they are unlikely to start slow

I agree with 3, in fact I think they may even cut Moiraines Manetheren exposition speech. They may however do their version of sexposition that GOT used for exposition.

In terms of 4 and 5 I think that Season 2 will go all the way to the end of Dragon Reborn

Yeah I do not think I saw a single person cast her as Ila. It was always either Siuan or Elaida and it turns out to be a much more minor (we think?) role. Pretty big actress for maybe 1 episode and then a reappearance maybe in season 3

Couple things:

1. They are REALLY holding out on many major castings

2. The more castings we see the less it seems will be cut from EOTW

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Baerlon is a location that you can film by shooting your Emond's Field set from different angles. In addition to using some existing Czech country and architecture, they might need one set and a few CGI shots. I don't think it is prohibitively expensive.

Like I said I am all for it, it is a great part of the story it is just my suspicion of what happens

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Baerlon also sets up the Whitecloaks and the fact that Fain is chasing them. It's 100% critical. 

 

I think they will condense all of Mat and Rand's encounters with darkfriends on the Camelyn Road into one interaction with "the Grinwells" who will all turn out to be darkfriends. This will take the place of Howal Gode and the girl in the stable. 

 

After they escape, they'll make it straight to Camelyn. 

It's another city for them to produce and it is really expensive. All of these things can be done on the road. Nynaeve would catch up with them in Caemlyn. I would be psyched to see Baerlon but it seems so logical to cut it

9 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

We need Baerlon for the stag and lion I believe where the boys end up line dancing with their scary authority figures.

Fain will probably get adjusted a great deal too as some mystery is good but I think a limited explanation for Mordeth will be invented. For how crucial Shadar Logoth is to the series, we never get an explanation beyond Mordeth is a different evil, unless there's more in the BWB or the other one.

Yes they do need to keep that moment as it is their last moment of innocence. I would prefer Baerlon to be there as several important things happen including this scene

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

No way. Too fast.

Episode 1:

Beginning (Gitara's foretelling) - flight from Emond's field.

 

Episode 2:

Taren ferry to the flight from Baerlon.

 

Episode 3:

Shadar Logoth and Fain's backstory

 

Episode 4: 

Rand and Mat's journey to Camelyn

Perrin and Egwene meet Elyas and the Tinkers

Introduction to Logain (his capture)

 

Episode 5:

Rand and Logain's meeting in Camelyn; Elaida meets Rand

Egwene & Perrin captured

 

Episode 6:

Moiraine gathers the party, they flee through the Ways

 

Episode 7:

The Eye

 

Episode 8:

Arrival in Fal Dara; meeting with Siuan

Fain's escape.

We will see, I think they are going to bring the early Tar Valon stuff from TGH into season 1 . I do agree with Episode 7 but I think there will be some resequencing with Padan Fain stuff happening either in Caemlyn or Tar Valon

9 minutes ago, Ascended said:

Regarding Min....I wouldn't be surprised to see her join the main party in Baerlon (spelling?) and travel with the group to the Eye, rather than disappear for a book's worth of story before re-appearing in Tar Valon. She can go to the White Tower when Egwene and Nyn do and nothing of any real importance changes from the books, but it keeps the character around.

 

As for the Eye....I think that sequence is important enough you have to keep it, but it's disconnected from the rest of the series enough to justify some adjustments and clarification. 

 

The army at the Gap is necessary for the spectacle; I mean this is the moment when we find out for certain that Rand can channel and leaves us 99% sure he's the Dragon, and burning a couple zombie looking Forsaken to ash isn't as visually impressive as smiting an entire army of trollocs, saving the Borderlands, and preventing a invasion. This also begins Rand's legend, as plenty of soldiers saw him at the Gap (though they don't realize it's Rand at the time). This moment is when Rand stops running and starts fighting back. It's a pivotal moment and you can't mess with that aspect too much.

 

But the Eye itself is too nebulous in the books for the show to leave as-is. The fact that nobody is sure what it's true purpose is supposed to be is fine; that's a common theme in the books. But its lack of connection to the prophesies, it's lack of obvious purpose, and the degree to which it's hidden.....there's too many unknowns here to make for a satisfying resolution. The Eye is better protected than anything else in the series, including crystal swords and little statues of people, and we never know why. I think this could be solved simply by including the Eye in the prophesies and/or dreaming up a clear purpose for it; is the Eye there to help cleanse the Source? Is it there to give the Dragon a power boost in the Last Battle? Are the Dragon's allies supposed to tap into the Eye so they can equal the Forsaken and dreadlords? Whatever answer you come up with, the fact that Rand burns it all up defending the Gap makes the victory bittersweet; Rand gets his Big Hero moment and staves off a full invasion of trollocs, kills two Forsaken.....and the forces of Light are left without a weapon they're seemingly meant to have. Moriaine and the rest can fret over that loss and try to find contingencies/replacements for seasons upon seasons afterwards, which gives the Eye a degree of weight it doesn't have in the books. 

I think they are skipping Baerlon and going from Camelyn to Tar Valon directly

Likely she is either Elaida or Verin I can see her as both actually.

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

Eye of the World was written as book 1 of a trilogy before RJ realized his story was much bigger. As a fan, I like EotW but I know it doesn't really work, I accept that. As @Thrasymachussays, a good intro but in some ways Great Hunt is the real beginning. One of the biggest problems is you can't have Ishamael die twice before getting killed for good the third time.

Perrin meets Elyas but barely advances until TOM.

Perrin and Egwene almost understand the Old Tongue but goes nowhere.

Mins viewings are all over the place.

The future very powerful Amarlyn has disappearing sisters.

Finally, my issues with the whole Blight sequence stand.

That's a longwinded way of saying you won't translate EotW onto the screen without major changes. It won't be like Fellowship of the Ring where they mostly stuck to the book except for Tom Bombadil, yes I know why they cut him and yes it hurts. Points is, don't get to attached to sequences in EotW and GH, especially as a few sequences only work because of the innermonologues.

Well you are entitled to your opinion but I don't really agree with a word. Funny thing is I think that the first 3 books will be very close to intact but starting with the 4th it will start having major changes. And by book 8 or so it wont follow the books at all except some major events like the cleansing. The vast majority of fans I believe how no issue with the first book