1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. While I acknowledge that there are enormous differences between the two characters, from a screenwriting perspective I would rather have one well-developed villain that gets lots of screen time rather than two less-developed ones.

 

Graendal simply doesn't have enough to do. She's barely present in most of the books and doesn't actually do anything when she is. She plots. That's all. 

 

Moghedien, on the other hand, is around quite a bit. She is a primary antagonist. Giving her Graendal's role in all the plotting doesn't change much of the story - but if done correctly it would fit the "Spider" moniker. Making Moghedien adept with compulsion isn't much of a change and again is fitting for the Spider. Making her sexy and using her for "sexposition" [I really hope they don't do much if any of that] also changes very little.

 

I know people get hung up on that there have to be 13 Forsaken and whatnot, but I think trying to keep the Forsaken as they are in the books is going to be a recipe for bad television. 

I could see a combo of Moghedien and Sermirhage. After she escapes from Nynaeve she could flee to Seanchan and then take the place of Semirhage later in the show making her role even larger in the show.

I understand what you mean about Graendal but a couple things. First, if Amazon wants a show that is more TV-MA then Graendal is perfect for part of that purpose. Also, she does quite a bit but Jordan chose not to show it, her role could easily be expanded. Plus I think a character with Graendals approach to sex would be good for the show. They could make that Berelain but that would cheapen her as she uses sexuality as a tool to help her people.

12 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Ultimately, that's why I'm fine with including Tar Valon in the first season, as long as Rand and co. don't come anywhere near it.  I can think of ways to do all that, though, without needing Tar Valon yet.  And I don't think you can put Caemlyn in Season 2, at least, not until near the end, and only if they intend to end Season 2 where the Dragon Reborn ends, mashing The Great Hunt together with it and Season 1.

 

But there's better places to sacrifice to make room for those scenes.  Baerlon and Whitebridge and almost the whole Caemlyn Road sequence or even Fal Dara.  Caemlyn, as a center of political power, is important to establish as an element of the world-building too.  And it's important for Elayne and Rand's relationship development.  "Love-at-first-sight" is perhaps trite as a plot device, but it's better than having Elayne participate in the Wonder Girl's adventures up to Tear for no good reason for a man she hasn't even met yet.

 

Cuts of scenes and characters, or amalgamations of them, have to be done so carefully in a series like this, or you risk opening up plot holes that could sink the Titanic.

I am like 99% sure that Tar Valon will be in Season 1 and Caemlyn will not. Just looking at Rafe's replies and tidbits it is easy to come to that conclusion. Rand does not have to be in the White Tower for them to be in Tar Valon. They can go to the Queen's Blessing (maybe renamed) and wait for Moiraine and the others just like in the book. Then use the Tar Valon waygate for Fal Dara even before he has a chance to be in the Tower. I had really thought that Egwene and Nynaeve would stay at Tar Valon and not go to Fal Dara, but it seems Egwene at least has scenes there so my theory on that was wrong. By the way they cut cities for budget reasons not story telling reasons. Rafe said he wanted fewer spectacular cities than many mediocre ones. Several people that have worked on WoT have mentioned that the sets on the show are maybe the biggest and most impressive they have ever seen. FWIW I do NOT like them cutting Caemlyn, to me the whole sequence of following Logain, seeing him, Logain laughing and falling into the garden is one of the most iconic scenes in the books but I do not think we get it. 

On 1/26/2021 at 4:28 AM, Wolfbrother31 said:

I think they're going to keep Caemlyn and cut Baerlon now... @deathgate I agree that we don't want major revisions, but shows want sets that they are going to use over and over, it gets too expensive to build a set that you're only going to use once or twice... Which is why I think they'll keep Caemlyn now. 

If Caemlyn was in Elayne and the rest of the Andorans would need to be in. Rafe  has all but confirmed they are not in. Min is in the last block so Rand seems to meet her in Fal Dara, so Baerlon is likely out. We also know that Moriane's group meets up with the reds hunting Logain. Rafe has also confirmed that there is a scene with lots of Aes Sedai (likely the gentling of Logain) So my guess is that Baerlon and Caemlyn are out. Seems like Four Kings might remain and could be where Thom meets Rand and Mat. After meeting up with the Logain group they probably all go to Tar Valon and the Queen's Blessing is moved there.

So I think we see Two Rivers/Edmonds Field, Tairen Ferry, Shadar Logoth, possibly still Whitebridge and Tower, 4 Kings, Tar Valon and Fal Dara.

Caemlyn/Baerlon cut. 

On 1/29/2021 at 9:01 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Yeah, WoT is not really set in a medieval world at all. It's much closer to Revolutionary War times in terms of technology, only without gunpowder. 

It's set in the early Renaissance well before the industrial revolution.

On 1/27/2021 at 9:18 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I think they should combine Moggy and Graendal. It would allow them to do a really solid job developing one of the female Forsaken. The combination wouldn't create any major plot holes. The combined character could do everything the individual ones do in the last battle and could still try to assume the role of Demandred (Taimandred?) at the very end.

You want to merge the two most un-alike Forsaken? Don't see that at all.  Graendal especially is needed for the future sexposition scenes.

I think they will have Taim be Demandred as originally planned.

Aginor and Balthamel could remain as they would only really need to be in a single scene.

Ishamael obviously stays, and likely Moridin too.

Semirhage is really important later, she would stay

Asmodean is vital he stays.

I can see Sammael and Rahvin or Sammael/Be'lal being combined. I doubt we get every major city. Caemlyn seems like it must be there. 

Moghedien is one of the better arcs. I think the spider remains largely intact

Lanfear is maybe the third most important character in the first few books despite having relatively little actual screen time. I see them greatly expanding the Lanfear role. 

To be honest other than Aginot and Balthamel it is not easy to cut most of the forsaken. 

Ingtar/Masema could be combined. Uno and Hurin can be combined.

Galad/Gawyn seems logical at first glance but not sure it makes sense overall. 

GOT had probably 25 ish main characters. I can see WoT doing the same so of the major characters they may not need to change too many.

On 2/3/2021 at 9:35 AM, king of nowhere said:

i, for one, am glad there's no trailer for the superbowl. first, i would have a hard time imagining much overlapping between superbowl audience and wot audience. but most important, if that 30 seconds ad is worth 5 million dollars - and i have a hard time conceiving any single 30 seconds ad, no matter how many people it reaches, increase revenues by 5 millions to justify its placement - that would be 5% of the whole budget. and i'd rather have them spend 5% of the budget to improve the show than for a single 5 seconds advertising.

 

that said, a trailer at this general time would have been nice.

The commonly held notion of the budget of WoT based on the tax credits is I believe way off. My guess is that the budget is in the $200 million range. That said I don't think SB would be a good use of resources.

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Just for sake of clarity, the composer (David Buckley) left sometime between August and October. I'd guess they've filled his role by now.

Oh thanks for that. Composer is SOOO important, would love to know more about that and who the replacement is. I am really hoping that they don't go for the anachronistic scoring that has become vogue lately.

Well there is the rumor of adding a character specifically to do in Episode 1 so there is that.

I am of 2 minds of this whole thing.

On one side I want them to stay as close to the books as possible.

On the other hand, I can see them wanting those dramatic water cooler moments.

If I was going to vote for the shock "death" it might be Perrin.  They could kill him but still have him appear in the wolf dream ala Tel'arinrhoid 

Seems like this aligns with my 8 month post production prediction. There is a good possibility that some episodes are basically complete -minus scoring since the composer just left-but others like what I suspect is an FX heavy Episode 7 might still be months away.

One interesting thing Amazon could do would be to split Season 1 into two 4 episode halves if there is a good point to do that. If they do it weekly they could build a lot of word of mouth for the Part 2 of the second season and that might be able to happen in April

I guess there is a good chance it was pickups for WoT. Maybe even a voiceover for a trailer ?

On 1/19/2021 at 6:17 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Why do you feel like more delays are likely? With vaccines out, it seems like the major disruptions are behind us. 

That would be well longer than post would take on a normal show, much less one that has been doing post production work since 2019. 

Well it will still be several months before enough people get her immunity. I also realize 8 months of post production is long but I do not think WoT is a normal show. I think the estimates of the first year budget are well low. The roughly $120M is just what they spent overseas. I suspect the real budget is close to $200 million. So I think we are going to see motion picture quality special effects and those take a lot of time. I hope I am wrong and it happens soon, but I will be happy if it happens by the Oct/Nov timeframe. 

On a personal note I am way too obsessed with this show. I truly hope it is good so I am not disappointed but haven't seen anything yet to suggest it will be anything other than great. The concept art was perfect IMO

On 1/16/2021 at 5:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

This has always made sense to me. I believe the original timeline called for an end to filming in May 2020. If they return to begin filming on season 2 in April, they can do the few remaining pickups then which would be perfect timing for a late April / early May type release.

I think October is the very earliest we will see it. I am not 100% convinced we get it in 2021 with more Covid delays likely. They are going to need 8 months to a year for post production.

In terms of the concept art I think it is perfect. Other than a couple pieces it is also the best Wheel of Time art we have ever seen. Especially love the saturation of color. It is perfect.

4 hours ago, redgiant said:

My suspicion more and more wrt what things they may have cut and/or changed, relate to how much they are going for covering up which boy is the most 'special'.

 

Book readers might forget just how much slanting towards Rand is done fairly immediately in tEotW. I think the series will purposely stray from that immensely for a while.

 

- Dragonmount as an opening cannot happen in Season 1. Gitara flashback may take its place simply to establish why Morraine is looking for boys of a certain age. But nothing more, no mention of the babies heritage yet.

 

- don't be surprised if Rand's 'red hair', height, etc are downplayed or not explicitly mentioned by moving 'head thoughts' from the book into dialogue. They may show the differences, but they won't call them out at first in Season 1. Book readers will notice the lack of attention to this, but others won't ... yet. Rand and Tam will appear as biological father/son for a while, with the reveal of his heritage delayed on purpose until they aare ready to thrust Rand into the top spot of "ahha!".

 

- cutting Elayne/Elaida definitely removes a huge 'Rand is the central one' point

 

- focusing more on Logain, including developing and showing witherto unseen things in the books, such as his actual capture, let's them focus more on the Aes Sedai and their power/purpose, as well as directing our attention at Logain himself up front showing how dangerous a channeling man is, without touching on which boy might matter at all. In the books, even the scene showing Logain laughing etc is really a Rand moment, not a Logain one.

 

- cutting some of the travel spots may also play into hiding who is who. Maybe they focus even more on Perrin (wolves) and Matt (dagger), to the point that they may really be trying to keep Rand from being an obvious focus until either the end of Season 1 (Eye) or even into Season 2 (although that would mean they would have to omit, alter or mislead us in some serious plot points from the Eye).

 

I really think it is being done more to misdirect and delay the focus on Rand as much as saving money on actors or locations included in the series.

 

One other thing: the scene where Elaida whispers in Rand's ear 'so I speak the truth", is too good a scene not to use ... somewhere, although I can't quite figure out how that would become a live scene or flashback later on unless they change the plot entirely as to when he first comes before Morgase.

 

I agree somewhat but it won't last the entire season in my view. Rand will be known to channel by Episode 4 or so (Four Kings) Now I think they will maybe not suggest he is the true dragon until like Episode 9 but really it's not going beyond that without essentially a complete overhaul of the story

On 12/24/2020 at 10:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Moiraine's arc will remain untouched. You just can't do away with the Finn without completely kneecapping Mat's entire arc too. (Not to mention nuking the spiritual foundation of the series) But I think it will be handled in a way so that she is only entirely gone for a single season (returning toward the end of the penultimate season).

 

 

I know Moiraine going away is sacrosant to so many but I do not think she will be gone for very long in the show maybe half a season. She is just not going to disappear for several seasons and then come back for a couple episodes just don't see it.

I thought Rafe's answers were super interesting:

1. No cameos for major characters that will be in later seasons, each needs their own real introduction. So no Verin, Elaida, etc...glimpses in first season. This does go a little against the "surprise" Aiel he teased already

2. One major character not in show that we can likely guess- Elayne obviously. One we will be surprised -Ishamael being the most likely

3. Very limited but fully fleshed out locations. He mentioned 4 but I think there will be 5.  My guess? Two Rivers, obvious. We know Shadar Logoth is in. Without Elayne and with Min being in last block, Caemlyn and Baerlon are axed. We know that Fal Dar is in, so that is three. We know we see the gentling of Logain so I think they reunite in Tar Valon. Four. I think the other is 4 Kings. .  I do not think Whitebridge will be in but I have a feeling that Rand and Mat might still escape by boat and they show TOG and the Whitebridge itself. Might make sense for them to meet Thom on the boat and they travel together after Thom learns of Moiraine and where they were going and after they escape the inn, Thom fights off a fade like in Whitebridge.

4. Seems we will be getting modern cursing.

5. Without Ishamael it is possible that there is no Eye and just the battle at Tarwin's Gap. I still see the Eye as too iconic not to be there though but I am not 100% as I was before. But there is still Steve who I have always thought was Somestha anyway.

6. Guitar actually makes more sense even in the books. WoT is not medieval it is very late Renaissance close to the industrial revolution and guitar was one of the most popular instruments of the time, Fernando Sor and Mauro Giuliani were practically rock stars at that time.

7. The observation that we have gotten steel and now music is super interesting. Something about fire next would make a lot of sense and be a fantastic in-joke.

All in all it seems like the show is in really good hands. All the news to now suggested a show very close to tEOtW but it seems it might be changed more than anticipated,

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Undoubtedly. Still, without the benefit of a link, an on-the-record source, or some idea about where the author is getting information, I'm going to take this article with a healthy degree of skepticism.

 

As for Ruth Wilson as Elaida - she'd be okay, I guess. She's never been my cup of tea. 

Yeah it's interesting. None of the Two Rivers castings look anything like my book picture of them except for maybe Rand, yet when I see them all together it is easy to see who is who. Rosamund is very very close to my mental picture of Moiraine, but together it is easy to pick out who is who.

30 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Lol. I didn't even notice that when I read the article. Definitely suspect. I'm sure we would know about a Ruth Wilson casting.

Well there is this instagram post from Rafe

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9fFt4NJJkq/?utm_source=ig_embed

So there are 30 actresses in one scene (most likely the gentling of Logain) so there are a ton of cast Aes Sedai that we do not know about yet. One would assume that among them are Verin, and Elaida, Sheriam at a minimum, maybe Anaiya or even Cadsuane. Since he emphasizes how many awards they have it seems to be logical that some are know actresses maybe just doing cameos for parts that are bigger later.

Ruth Wilson would be a very good Elaida, so it is possible she is in it, especially as it seems that composite pic was created for the article so he intentionally put her in there. 

Still LOTS of unannounced castings.

22 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

This article supports your timeframe (and would be in keeping with pickups and further shooting taking place in April). The author doesn't source the article though or establish where his timeframe comes from.

Not sure where he gets his info from I suspect it is just a logical guess. The interesting thing to me is why is Ruth Wilson pictured as part of the cast? As far as I know she has not been even mentioned as being in the show. So if that is true maybe he has actual sources.

Reading this thread I realize I see WoT quite differently than a lot of you:

I sort of HATE Dumai Wells and think for many reasons that scene will never work in the TV series.  It may be my least favorite thing in all of the WoT I hope it is cut and completely changed.

I kinda hope they completely ditch the Last Battle as written. It has no subtlety and I found it sort of excruciating to read. I actually have no interest in reading any of the Sanderson books again, but have read all of the Jordan books multiple times, and the first few maybe as many as 10 times.

I would actually change/cut much of story after book 7 to be honest.

The entire sequence at Falme is what I look forward to most. It is so visually epic and made for film.

I really want to see the entire Rand/palace scene in Caemlyn but I fear they are cutting it completely.

I look forward to the whole Shadar Logoth sequence

Nynaeve healing Logain

Rand and Aviendha especially the scene where she travels to Seanchan

The scenes from the Age of Legends

I really hope they retcon Taimendred (as intended!) as it will make the who Black Tower way more interesting.

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is exactly right. May want to bookend the Witcher with WoT on one side and LotR on the other. 
 

I’d be shocked if it isn’t on screens by July 

Boy, a release date is tricky. One one hand they could have the first four or five shows completed by this point in their entirety. On the other hand even though they are trying to do as much as they can with sets and physical effects, Episode 7 is likely to be extremely digital FX heavy. They finished likely around early November and I could see post production on that episode easily taking 8-10 months or more. July seems aggressive to me, if I was going to pick a date I would say late September or October.  I do think we see a short trailer before Christmas mostly with stuff from the first episode or two.

Hey all

Some screen tests were released today:

https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/09/22/leaked-audition-scripts-for-amazons-wheel-of-time-reveal-a-glimpse-at-aes-sedai-rivalries/

Although they use code names for most of the scripts they refer to Elayne in it. Now that could be intentional to completely throw us off or it could have been an oversight.

If it is our Elayne it could point to several possibilities:

1. Elayne is already Aes Sedai

2. Elayne is already Queen, so she would likely be a combo of Morgase and Elayne. In the script Queen could just mean Amrylin as well

3 Sanderson would not love this at all

4. Also seems to confirm Elaida

5. Hints that the main EoTW crew meet the people that captured Logain and that they go to Tar Valon and not Caemlyn. I could see this making a lot of sense because then Egwene and Nynaeve could start their training cutting down on Book 2 stuff

Not for those saying; "but the castings?". Well Rafe tweeted that he did a scene with 30 actresses that won or nominated for like 30 Academy Awards and Emmys so there are a ton of unannounced castings that have not been leaked including some major Aes Sedai

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

How's about a link?

I recommend the whole video as there are a lot of things in there to be REALLY excited about but here is the link to the direct casting call which removes all doubt on nudity:

Geeky Eri's 3rd block video on YT essentially confirms that as a minimum we are getting boobs and butts maybe full nudity

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

This is a pretty good list.

I'm going to drop a long post soon about why Egeanin should be included...

Egeannin is critical in my view

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

My alteration doesn't change this. It just changes the form of the Saidin into something kept by Somethsa.

 

 

Moiraine doesn't have to lie. "The Green Man possesses the power to heal Mat". It's not a lie. It's typical Aes Sedai deception, literally true but capable of multiple interpretations. Moiraine would brush off Nynaeve's questioning without batting an eyelash.

 

 

I'm not suggesting that Ishamael be eliminated. Far from it. But rather than having him "die" three different times only to be continually reincarnated, this change allows him to be the one manipulating things behind the scenes. 

 

 

I admit that my description sort of rushed past Tarwin's Gap. But I still mean for Rand to be actively channeling in the Gap - though I would have the mechanics of it work much differently.

 

 

Umm... 

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. But I'd point out that one of the major plot points for the entire series is Moiraine's (ahem) scheme with Siuan to find and shepherd the Dragon.

 

 

Again, I guess I wasn't 100% clear. In my re-write Aginor is free. He is directing the Trollocs and Myrdraal that chase our heroes throughout the first season. He is in command of the forces at Tarwin's Gap. And he is also psychically attacking the Emond's field boys in the same manner that Ishamael does in the books.

 

But this is all subjective stuff. I get why you like the Eye. And why you don't want to change it. And I appreciate the lively discussion.

I enjoy the conversation as well. I guess I am ok with changes to the story, consolidated characters, cut storylines etc...but I think that what GOT had it's first five years and what WoT needs is that it needs to still have certain major events in the story  even if they get there a slightly different way. I think the Eye is just one of those.

Others would be in first couple seasons:

Falme (including the horn, some have suggested cutting that..wtf?)

Egwene collaring and rescue

Waystones

Choeden'kal

Quick note: Teaser of Whitespring Inn on Twitter 

Looks Awesome if a bit blurry

56 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’m curious as to which changes you find fundamental? From my perspective the only thing that really changes is that Moiraine proposes going to the Green Man because of Mat instead of her own mysterious backstory + Rand’s dreams + hearsay from an Aiel by way of Tinkers by way of Perrin. 
 

Is swapping Aginor (creator of the Trollocs and most of the shadowspan) for Ishamael and making the Green Man the vessel for untainted Saidin that much of a change?

 

Or is it the mechanics of the battle at the Eye? 

1. The pool of clean Saidin is created by the Aes Sedai of the AoL. This is important as it shows Rand that the taint can be removed which he later uses to cleanse it.

2. Your plot twist would not work without Moiraine lying. And she cannot. She is vague and cryptic but as an example Nynaeve would grill her and she would have to lie. Mat cannot be healed later in the Tower without revealing a lie. Your plot creates that paradox. 

3. Ishamael is way too important to the story to swap with Aginor for many  many reasons.

4. Rand NEEDS to actively channel at the eye and Tarwin's Gap. The Shieneran's SEE Rand. They know he is the Dragon Reborn and it sets up the entire arc of book 2 with Ingtar and later Masema. A random explosion does non of that.

5. It fundamentally changes Moiraines character. She is not the person you describe. She is willful and unbending and cryptic but never scheming.  

6. Aginor/Balthamel let readers/viewers know that the Forsaken are free. If Rand fights Aginor in the dream world this does not become obvious.

Look I know you think them going to the Eye is incredibly Vague (I don't-the audience won't care) and the events at the Eye don't sit well with you. I think you can add some dialogue and scenes to frame it even better especially for TV, but the Eye sets up so many things for later that this is not something that should be changed in the show, IMO