On 11/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Robert Jordan struggled to de power Rand once he realised he had more books to develop him in, it is one of the weak points of the first 3 books. He did it by having Rand lose control of the world around him politically and by constantly finding new power levels for the bad guys and things they could do. Oh and having Rand “forget” how he did things. 
 

The TV show is doing his build the right way, the way RJ would have done it if he knew in book 1 he had a 14 book arc to tell this story. People really need to remember that. 

 Yet they did it with Egwene and Nynaeve. Egwene literally healed a husk of a shell of a burned out Nynaeve and then went back to novice. Nynaeve pulled galaxies together and bubble healed an entire room and then back to struggling. But hey we cant let Rand show any power, he is only the Dragon Reborn.

Yep... "if we had 2 more episodes we could have flushed out what the Horn really is and how important it is"...

meanwhile Rafe gets 2 more episodes and we get to see Lan taking a dump while talking to Alanna.

 I really liked seeing Liandrin's book ending. I am hoping the show leans into her evil now that her son is dead and it is a just punishment.

 I was always concerned about how it could be adapted to tv and while animation is a way, it was never the way I preferred. The one thing I can definitely give the amazon show credit for, they proved it can be done on tv.

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

that was a good description of sanderson 15 years ago, when he was hired to finish the wheel of time. now sanderson has 20 years of experience as a top fantasy writer.  which makes him even more qualified to give advice here.

especially since his main streenghts - worldbuilding, characters - can be transposed to television, while his one weakness - prose - is made irrelevant by the change in medium

 Yeah, to clarify I meant when he was writing the last 3 books, since that is the canon they will (wont) be basing the show.

12 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

The gap between RJ and Brandon's abilities are writers is pretty vast, IMO... but it's the width of a paper when compared to the galaxy of difference between Rafe and Brandon or the Universe sized gulf between Rafe and RJ. 

 

For all his weaknesses as a writer (namely, bland and unevocative prose), Brandon excels at worldbuilding (albeit in a limited, TV-esque sort of way that falls well short of the meticulous realism RJ preferred), crafting character arcs, establishing consistent motivations, dripfeeding information to the audience, basic setup and payoff . . . e.g. just about EVERYTHING the show is bad at. 

 I mean, yeah... you have a guy who studied physics, was a nuclear engineer, served 2 tours in vietnam where he was awarded medals for his actions who wrote the books, compared to a guy who was really just getting his toes wet in the industry, compared to a guy who did some editing on survivor who thinks he is a better writer than the 2 aforementioned.

It is all about context. Millions of people never miss a WWE event. They absolutely love it. Millions more line up to watch the new Fast and Furious. Look at all the money the Transformers movies made...

 most people who watch something want to sit back, turn off their brains, and enjoy the explosions.

 That is how you have to watch WoT. Turn off your brain, dont think too deeply, and enjoy the explosions.

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

And this is why changes to the source material needed to be made, to keep the themes and tone consistent throughout

you cant use the word consistent with the show. that is the last thing the show is.

3 hours ago, trw1972 said:

 

I started a re-read last week and i think Eotw has a different feel to the rest of the series. It feels like YA to me.

 

Now that i know the other books are great i will power through but the first time i read the series i was a young adult and didnt mind (1992)

 Yeah, now that I am much older in life, I have said more than once, if I had started reading the books right now, I dont know if I would have made it through book 1. Fantasy was an entirely different thing back in 91 though, basically you had LOTR rip-offs and Book 1 fell into the same trap as so much more other fantasy did during that time period.

 Another big arc they skipped in season 2 (book 3) was Rand's ta'veren. In the books we get to see how he effected the pattern just by being there. Every village he went through showed the effect of his ta'veren, both the good and the bad, and the balance between the two.

 in WoT, Ta'veren is the plot armor. Ta'veren is how they could overcome what would seemingly be impossible odds. Especially with them together and how important it was for them to be together so their combined Ta'veren would have the most effect.

 Most non-book readers dont even know what it is.

On 10/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, and that thought hinges on premeditation.

 

I can hold a hammer in my hand and think about hammering a nail into a piece of wood.
But the moment I have an intrusive thought about taking that hammer and turning the Sul'dam's head into pulp is the moment that a'dam would slam me into the ground.

If I picked up that hammer with the premeditated thought of taking it and turning the Sul'dam's head into paste, it wouldn't let me.

 

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

 My issue is, why do we have to be on a forum coming up with all types of possibilities of why and how when even the best "reasons" are flimsy? The writers are making a lot of money to write good material, not minimal, good enough, get er done, material.

 This is a writer issue, great writers would come up with a scenario where the watchers went "oh my goodness! that was amazing". Because they were not copying from the book, they could have came up with something much more consistent that didnt flaunt the "rules"... Same with Moraine and her mega-power at the end. If they were going to give her this amazing mega-power, why not snap the flows of the shield, hell let Rand have a moment where he blasts out massive fireballs at the ships as soon as the shield snaps. Nynaeve could have gotten pissed finally and hurled a ball of fire. Just too many ways for them to have written it better but they settled for something less than great. Get er done!

 Once again, I enjoyed season 2 and have re-watched it and will re-watch it again. I never re-watched season 1 and will never re-watch season 1. Even enjoying it, I definitely have complaints and they definitely have room for a lot of improvement. What I dont like, both in season 1 and 2, is that they add story like Moiraine's shield, and then they neglect other arcs like Ingtar's redemption. I think Ingtar's redemption is a huge part of the books. How far is too far gone, can a dark friend be redeemed? It also gives us hope when we find out about Verin. I get they needed to do something with Moiraine, but having Rand cross paths with Ingtar and Ingtar confessing with the Dragon saying "I think just wanting to is enough" and the peace that comes over Ingtar as the Jesus version of Rand washed his sins away.

 It was still good, just not great. On one of the reaction videos, someone made a good point about books like WoT compared to books like ASoIaF. WoT has a complicated and consistent magic system with hard set rules that can be hard for a tv show to not screw up. Where as, books like ASoIaF have magic that no one knows the rules, not even those doing the magic. It is a lot easier to use magic as a plot device when you have no idea what is possible.

 No RJ did not say "hey I can spread this out over 14 books, this will be fun!"

 He didnt know if the publishers would continue the series, so he had to write with "ending points" just in case. This has been talked about plenty. Once the books were popular enough that his books were guaranteed to continue being published he transitioned into "his" story.

20 hours ago, LightHelpMe said:

You only need to ask ONE question and the whole scene with Egwene freeing herself falls apart. And why not ask? Don't we want better writing than that?

 

I'm loving Lanfear too. She was rather dull in the books, same thing over and over.

 

I cried when Hopper died. I knew it had to come, but it happened kind of suddenly. Oh, who am I kidding. I would have cried no matter what. Just maybe not have yelled No! I hope we see Valda with a horribly mangled arm.

 

Rand and Ishamael "battle" was so anti-climatic. But if he did just give up and let Rand kill him, he's gonna find out the DO has a nasty sense of humor because there is no way the show is killing him of for good.

 

Moghedien was creepy, but I liked it. In the books she usually seemed rather pathetic.

 The big glaring hole with the Ishamael thing was the fact Ishamael KNOWS the DO isnt going to just let him go but immediately spin him back out. Nothing about it made sense except they needed Ishamael to die without giving Rand enough power or taveren to do it. So they came up with some really silly BS that they want fans to just accept, dont ask questions, and move on... The show is enjoyable, but once again, it will never be great because the writers dont care  if it is great, good enough is good enough for them.

10 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

How does it go against show lore? Using the collar is not attacking a Sul Damane, it is collaring a potential Damane, that is not against the rules of the show as stated. Now is this a change from the books, yes, and I am happy having a debate on the pros and cons of that, personally I really don’t care as long as lore on show is maintained. 
 

My point was that my wife, who is unimpewded by “book lore” absolutely understood how a Damane could collar her Sul Damane and it not count as “attacking” her and so bypassed then jug. The whole point was that Egwene could not use the jug as a weapon, the collar is not weapon, in fact there are 2 similar arguments you could make, the first is that the collar can’t be a weapon because a Damane can’t be a Sul Damane and so it won’t be stopped, or Egwene attached the collar not fully knowing if it would work and so did not see it as a weapon. Both ways allow her to avoid the “jug” problem and make absolute perfect sense. 

 

At this point Renna is no longer a Sul Damane, but also, hanging her was causing Egwene immense strain and pain, she fought through that and managed to keep up the hanging. It was not an easy thing, maybe a line of blood from her eyes or nose might have shown the strain much better. 

 

Rafe is not going to come out and “spoil” a pretty big reveal for non book lovers, in the books Ishy dies, Rand asks him what his punishment was for dying, and he tells him resurrection. That feeds directly into this moment, ishy has died, for a moment. 

 It doesnt matter if the fans dont know, Ishy knows he will be resurrected so the whole "Ishy let him kill him because Ishy wants to die" is not valid. Ishy did not let Rand kill him because he wanted to die, he knew dying wasnt changing anything. So it was basically just stupid.

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

Rafe said the Ishy death was basically Ishy getting his wish to finally die.  He doesn't want to live so saw no reason to fight.  He succeeded in finally making LTT kill him. 

 

Still seemed like a very anti climatic, disappointing fight/ending.

 Yet, killing one of the forsaken doesnt give them the final death... he needs the wheel broken. The dark one controls the grave and there is no escape for Ishy except for breaking the wheel entirely. Rafe read the books, Rafe didnt understand the books. He barely scratches the surface and it is easy to see. Rafe was the wrong person to take on this series and if it makes it to season 4 it will be shocking. Looks like they will be wrapping it up in season 3 to me.

3 hours ago, Samt said:

Agree with the general idea, but Egwene hasn't taken the oaths.  The way that the interlocked Damane system works is unclear, but the 3 oaths don't come into it.  

well they did spend an entire episode proving how a damane cannot do anything to the suldam that hey considered to be an attack or damaging... so the whole thing was completely BS, but I am sure they are saying "dont think dont think dont think dont think" over and over hoping their audience are as stupid as the writers are.  While there are some good things in the series, there are a lot more holes and bad things in the series. I will be shocked to my core if they approve a season 4.

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Correct.

Either
A) She broke the 3rd oath and she's Black Ajah.

B) She never swore the 3rd oath.
C) She swore a different 3rd oath that allows her to protect the dragon and her warder.

Those are the only 3 possible options I see to keep the shows lore internally consistent.

D) or writing doesnt allow us to know if it is an oversight, screw up, or just lack of detail.

 There has been way too much of that so far, so it could be any of the above.

 Rafe is 100% proof that someone can read the books, love them, be entertained by them, and not understand them at all.

13 hours ago, Vartija said:

I was watching Mat push that Ashandarei into the lock and thinking "surely that flimsy thing is going to fall apart any second." 😆

 

And yeah, Nynaeve, it's much less painful for Elayne if you remove the feathery thing at the end. I was wtf:ing pretty hard at that oversight. 

 

 

 It's the small details that make a show great. It is hard to see this show ever being great because they never get the small details. I still liked season 2, but my expectations of this being an all-time great show is at a minimum.

Ingtar left a bad taste in my mouth that carried through the rest of the episode. I think the question of can a darkfriend be saved was an important arc that Ingtar answered.

 I liked the Heroes of the Horn and even the Mat "I remember" line.

 Nice to see Lan do something other than fail.

Lanfear playing her own games is fun.

Liked that Egwene freed herself but you cant ask too many questions or it just falls apart. Take it at face value that Egwene rescued herself,

Hopper, so sad.

Fighting scenes were a letdown.

Moiraine somehow became the most powerful Aes Sedai in millions of years.

Ishamael died so easily it was a letdown.

Moghedian was great and I wanted to see more immediately.

26 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Very interesting. And kudos to the writers because this season has been great!

 Yep, season 1 was so terribly bad (long before Mat's actor left) that I had no intentions at all of watching season 2. Thank goodness my daughter started watching it in the living room and I was "forced" to have it in the background. It didnt take long before I turned away from the game I was playing on the pc and started watching it. Then after she went to sleep I went back to the beginning of season 2 and rewatched the first 3 episodes. Season 2 is night and day different from season 1, which is kind of funny when you look back at all the people defending season 1 when it was playing. Season 1 was an atrocity.

On 10/4/2023 at 7:52 AM, Gypsum said:

 

Those questions are arguably true for the books as well. Why didn't the Forsaken turn him or kill him before he came into his full strength? He proved he could take out one or two at a time, but if everyone had linked, he would have been in trouble.

 

It would also have been a short series. But more seriously -- and I think the show has hinted at this too -- Lanfear is hoping he will fall in love with her, like Lews Therin was, so she wants him alive. Ishamael told Mat flat-out that he wanted to end the cycle of reincarnation. Letting Rand grow into his power and having a confrontation with the Dark One sounds like a fun and nihilistic way to blow the world up. I don't recall this being that apparent in book 1-3 Ishamael, who didn't get much character development, but it's the primary motivation for Moridin/Ishamael. If you're writing for Fares Fares, you're going to write him as Moridin/Ishamael rather than some creepy dude with eyes of fire who doesn't say a whole lot (other than in the prologue).

 

As book readers know, the Forsaken all hate each other's guts and are too busy playing Daes Dae'mar with one another to be effective. The show hasn't gone there, yet, but it reminds me of certain real life governments.

 

I can answer that writer's other questions, mostly from within the show-world, though a little book knowledge helps.

 

*The Seanchan are in Falme because it's a coastal city, the first place they invaded. They think that to win the Last Battle, the whole world must be united. Under them! Renna said this to Egwene in a pretty clear way.

 

*The Aes Sedai haven't done anything about the Seanchan because so far, all they've heard is rumour, and they are so mired in their internecine politics that they could not organise a p*ss-up in a brewery (I suppose I know that from the books...perhaps it's not super clear in the show). 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Most of the Tower Aes Sedai, post-coup, did not believe that the Seanchan existed until they attacked the Tower itself.

 

*Rand has to be in Falme because prophecy says he should be. A few characters have mentioned this. That's how this world works. Everyone else is there because he has to be, and Ishamael pulled his Dark Friend strings to get the other Emond's Fielders to Falme along with him.

 

*I'm sure Ishamael has a reason for hanging out with the Seanchan. All of the book-Forsaken set themselves up in powerful positions within various nation-states across Randland, whoever they thought would aid their personal agendas.

 I know this makes it sound too easy, but it is true nonetheless, the wheel would not have allowed Rand to be killed or turned at that point.  Bad things would have happened to anyone who tried.

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Because you can't just leave that it is general knowledge in that scene and then have so many aes sedai shocked that the dragon has returned. You have to spend screen time telling the story of how the secret was hidden by the black, you have to then explain why the 2 where not killed, and then show them becoming Aes Sedai and the pact they make. People really don't seem to understand that this story has to make sense to non book readers much more then it does us book readers because it is non book readers that are the key audience because there are more of them. There was a massive debate about how Liandrin got 3 girls out of Tar Valon, can you imagine the questions and debates about why is it that every Aes Sedai apart from Siuan and Moiraine has forgotten about that prophecy? 

 No they would not... why because you say so?

 A flashback is just that, a flashback.  It would have told the same thing... Moiraine and Siuan heard the Dragon Reborn was born. Gitara died... 2 other people including the Amyrlin heard it. Next scene....

I am sure people would ask well what happened to those other 2, same as they asked what was going on with the Lews Therin flashback. WAFO.

1 hour ago, Elgee said:

 

Yeah apparently Lan now knows more about Channeling than any Aes Sedai.

 

 Well, at least all the Browns show up for his classes. Blues chose not to and now they are all ignorant.

53 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I do have a question that came up when I considered @Elder_Haman's response to me.  Because it involves the Three Oaths I'd probably have to go back and look at the wording of Moiraine's oath.  Apologies if this has been asked, sometimes I miss things.

 

Last season Siuan made Moiraine swear on the oath rod to obey her, correct?  I don't remember the wording of that oath.

 

But at the end of the latest episode, Siuan commands Moiraine not to go.  Moiraine defies her.  Was this not a breaking of an Oath sworn on the rod?  Shouldn't Moiraine have become apoplectic or something?

 

I know it could have been something subtle with the wording so if anyone can correct me on this that would be helpful for my understanding.

 It appears to me they used some crappy writing to get around by making Siuan give her a formal command by citing "I am the Amyrlin and you have sworn oaths to obey me so you must obey me and I command you as the Amyrlin seat to do as I have commanded you" and abunch of other malarkey. In theory, the moment Siuan said "close the waygate" Moiraine would have had to close the waygate and not say no, and dont make me and blah blah blah...