16 hours ago, Skipp said:

Agreed, the "Tell: was not a good plot device

I haven’t been able to make sense of this, perhaps you or someone can tell me what I’m missing. Do we ever learn what “the tell” is? Or how it’s possible that her long term bonded warder could have been unaware of it?

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Thought the bowl accessed saidin.  Wouldn't that require men?

I might be misinterpreting your question. Having disclosed that I don’t fully understand the mechanism behind the bowl of the winds, but when we see it used in the books there were no men present. However, I’m pretty sure whoever is facilitating the narrative through their point of view IIRC remarks upon some awareness of saidin interacting somehow anyway. I could be completely wrong here though, I haven’t reread the books repeatedly. 

Both arcs were significant and satisfying to me as the reader but I think verin had a deeper impact in my experience probably based on her presence and glimpses into her POV for so much more of the story. Ingtar is basically introduced and wrapped up within the space of one book out of 15, whereas verin is a relatively integral character for a much larger portion of the series. Kinda like the difference between an acquaintance and an old friend. 

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Ha.  It will only take me a day to watch all of S1 - the wife works Sat, Sun, Mon this weekend...

I just have to acknowledge and commend your ability to binge watch something under the right circumstances…I too have a knack for consuming a lot of content in a short period of time in the rare occasions when I’m alone. It’s fantastic…I absolutely wear pajamas the whole day, too. 

11 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I'm going in even fresher than you.  No re-watch of S1.  I will watch the first episode of S2 and if I like it will then watch the 2nd episode.  If I like that as well, then I will go back and watch all of S1 'knowing' that S2 was a vast improvement and I'll just need to live with a weak S1 to fully enjoy the show as a whole.  And as others have said, maybe S2 lifts up S1 through connections, explanations, etc...

I’m genuinely eager to see what your feelings about the second season will be! Please fill us in on your opinion of the premiere and whether it is strong enough to determine your desire or lack thereof to continue watching. I always enjoy reading your comments. 

2 hours ago, Guire said:

So 2 days away from season 2 premier. I have a thousand ways I would have done WoTprime differently for my personal enjoyment. I just wasn't willing to part with 50 million US to get my anime adaptation with Critical Role actors doing voice work.  So here we are.  I decided last month to stop my current reread.  I watched season 1 again up through ep 7.  I am head creating ep 8.  I am cleansing my pallette of all my preconceived anger and I am going to try and watch season 2 and WoTprime as its own entity.  I hope we can all get some joy from the show and have many more great conversations about it. 

Cheers to that! Although I don’t see why you couldn’t just part with a mere 50 million…

On 8/23/2023 at 10:36 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Gawyn becomes frustrating only at the end

I see your point here but respectfully must disagree, not that I see my opinion as right and/or yours wrong but I just wanted to say that I was frustrated with gawyn much sooner. To be specific it first happened for me and was excruciatingly frustrating when he facilitated the battle to take down siuan and then immediately changes course and frees her. Pick a lane, gawyn! I’m not saying it’s the fact that he had a change of heart, it’s that he never really did. He seems to just do stuff and then do other contradictory stuff without any clear understanding of why he’s doing things. Another example of RJ writing characters who reflect very real human flaws, so I don’t object to gawyn or his actions as a whole, just stating that he frequently frustrated me much earlier on than he did you 😊

On 8/26/2023 at 11:28 AM, Pandemonium said:

I like Egwene alot.  she is playing a very solid version of the book character.  Someone who is driven by ambition, already showing strong loyalty to the white tower, and we can see her love for Rand but also the fracture in their relationship.  Season 2 should really give Egwene alot more to work with, and I suspect many will agree with me by the end of it.

 

I like Thom too, but I just couldn't do his singing.  I was expecting a royal court bard here, not a common tavern singer

Off topic but I love your username. My dad passed a couple of years ago but one of his favorite comments was “pandemonium” in general terms of society in its glorious weirdness. Thank you for reminding me of a great man 🥰 he would announce it in airports and Starbucks and stuff 😂

On 8/25/2023 at 4:28 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Not sure if LTT did know, it is clear the Aes Sedai did know, but in typical AS fashion decided not to share with anyone it might impact. It is also possible that by the time Rand had that knowledge (after the mind meld), he realised it was too late. the fact that Egwene sees it in her vision in the arches suggests that it was a possible future if Rand went to the black tower. We always assume that scene was in the white tower but it may have been she was in the cells of the black. 
 

 

Thanks for your insights, I appreciate the help from readers more knowledgeable and experienced than I am 👍

I love the development of mat’s character throughout the series. We have 3 taveren and they all come with their own unique abilities. I never really knew what explained the luck factor….Perrin has this ancient wolf thing and Rand is the dragon effing reborn, and those two are so serious and intense. Then mat has some deeply rooted skills and what not but the luck thing just is what it is and can’t be traced to anything else in the universe. Plus he’s not as brooding or serious as the other two and it was refreshing for me as the reader. Not that he doesn’t have his own internal conflict about his role, but I enjoyed the less defined and explainable aspects of his “superpowers”

Is it certain that if the female half of the power had participated in the event then both aspects of the OP would have been tainted? Or could it be possible that both forces working together may have been strong enough to successfully overpower the DO? No way to know for sure, for many reasons (for example the story would never have happened) but it seems like it is accepted as fact by readers that this was the only outcome possible. 

On 8/21/2023 at 11:41 AM, VooDooNut said:

Another framing I like to keep in mind, as inaccurate as it might be: 
In the show, more-so than the books, Moraine’s opening dialogue comes across as judgmental of Lews Therin and the 100 companions, as if the women Aes Sedai had any other option at the time. But the reality of the situation was that everyone was mostly clueless about how to seal the DO’s prison (no one intended to use the True Power) and they were running out of time. So Lews Therin acted, and the consequences of that action were immense, but it was done in a state of emergency. If anything, I think Lews Therin is judged more on the outcome of his actions than for the actions themselves, in both book and tv show. 

I like your train of thought here. I don’t know if this is relevant to your point or not but I don’t quite know how to reconcile the viewpoint declaring the “arrogance” of men was a flawed motive and fundamentally caused the audacity to attempt to contain the dark one in the first place….but what was the preferred alternative? Submit and resolve to be forever oppressed by the DO in order to not appear or act arrogant? I tend to view it more as an act of courage born out of desperation and desire to benefit humanity as a whole than an ego fueled display of arrogance. It may have been doomed to fail but I find it more appalling to think that no one would have resisted or attempted to fight for freedom at all. 

Good point regarding not knowing that channelers could be forced to the dark side. Additionally I thoroughly understand and agree that Rand had so many obligations and couldn’t possibly see to them all himself. I get the necessity to address the gathering and training of male channelers and the impracticality of Rand seeing to it himself. For one thing, he can’t train and teach the ability to harness the OP when he himself doesn’t know how or what to do. I’m aware of the situation being the way it is for a good reason but it still causes me excruciating and agonizing anxiety and frustration lol! 
 

one more question, did LTT know about the ability to force people to the shadow, was it common knowledge in the AOL? LTT is very adamant in using his knowledge to influence Rand. Too bad he’s mad and doesn’t explain his reasoning coherently. 

19 hours ago, Elendir said:

Rand thinks himself to be bad news for Aiels. He wanted to distance himself from them.

 

By the way, do you have any good time on your mind, when he had to struck Taim? Too soon, no Black tower. Too late, Dragon captured by dreadlords. Was there good time for it at all.

Interesting thought. As thoroughly baffled as I still am at this point in my first reread of the series by the handling of the BT by Rand, I admit I don’t have any idea what alternative would be preferable (in terms of the realistic and practical limitations on rands time and attention to go around) and what timing would have been ideal to strike even if an alternative approach existed. Having said that, I still can’t comprehend how the deeply paranoid and innately untrusting Rand at that point in the story essentially sought out, gathered and subsequently created an unstoppable force of powerful, sizable, concentrated and unpredictable/dangerous army of male channelers and then appeared to entirely ignore and neglect the whole thing. He never seemed to have much trust for taim from the get go. It’s like he kinda knowingly created a monster that clearly was as likely to turn against him as follow him, and instead of taking that knowledge of the necessary risk and being alert and observant of the situation, I felt like he just abandoned and blocked the whole thing from his consciousness entirely! Ok, rant concluded. I didn’t realize how much I needed to get that off my chest, thank you for the opportunity and sorry for the long post. But. Wtf?

23 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Maybe a'dam doesn't have a long working range? Who knows at this point

True. Also if the show can effectively convey clearly through the ornaments worn by and embraced by the seanchan society due to absolute faith in the ingrained belief system defining their very existence, identity and values then it could still convey the underlying spirit of that element of story. 

Wow, thanks for your clarification and fascinating and significant realization it then presents. While at first glance the lack of participation by women clearly created an inherent diminishing of the potential strength that may have been utilized in the effort to defeat or at least definitively imprison the DO, leading to an understandable assumption that this was the obvious weakness or explanation for the failure to achieve the intended mission. The awareness that had the women actually participated and aligned with the men may very well have been more catastrophic is very enlightening and fundamentally important or at least thought provoking information. I’m way behind in general when it comes to having an understanding of the situations that more experienced fans know inside and out. 

Is there any explanation for why saidin was corrupted and not saidar? I just realized that I must have assumed that the DO was defined by a gender construct, namely male in general. Now I’m feeling naive and embarrassed to admit that I assumed the DO was inherently “male ish” and therefore the taint had to be tied to saidin. So moving past my blunder and acknowledging that forces of nature/creation on the level of the DO itself are not constrained by gender constructs, what caused specifically the male half of the power to be vulnerable to the DO corruption? Is it because the men were the ones actively channeling at the time so the DO had easier access to saidin? 

39 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Or just find ways to tangle them up. Another comparison is going on a walk with more than 1 dog on leads. No matter how well trained the dogs are you always have at least one tangled moment lol. 
 

But also, the leash clearly shows who the sul damne is so your archers know exactly who to target. 
 

I almost (and it won’t happen) want a dead pool type 4th all break where a Seanchan character says “these used to be leashes but we just kept getting terribly tangled” lol. 

I don’t have a strong need to see the leashes on screen, especially compared to other things I would personally consider more impactful for the story, but having said that I do wonder how the viewers will be able to connect who is controlling who. Although maybe it doesn’t really matter 🤷‍♀️

57 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Just to back up some other points, I have always considered the actual logistics of the leash to make them horrendous. It reads great on paper when you don’t have to visually see it. I spent a long part of my life in a lifestyle where you would be around many people on leashes, and just navigating around a room was sometimes more an art in choreography than anything else. One or 2 Damme on screen, not an issue, the hundreds we will build to, the scenes of damme running or fighting. You get to a point where it will just look stupid. It really was one artistic element RJ came up with that sounds amazing, but, actually try using it and I imagine the Seanchan would have tried creating something different after the first time a group of damme got tangled in a battle. 

Good points. Also, in the books isn’t it eventually revealed that the leash is actually not necessary to facilitating the forced link? Regardless of whether the seanchan themselves in the books believe or are aware of this fact doesn’t change the inherent reality. My point being that if in fact the leash is not actually functional in book canon, it’s reasonable to understand why the show runners eliminated the potentially cumbersome detail in the show while still keeping with the overall theme of one class of society being utterly controlled and enslaved and subservient to another. Silly example and probably not exactly comparable, but should period pieces that take place in a time where people accepted as fact that the earth was flat then be portrayed on screen as taking place on a flat earth? Oh yikes…some people still believe the earth is flat…

On 8/17/2023 at 10:26 AM, DojoToad said:

Narg smart!

Hahaha! Yes!! I was so giddy with the excitement over the opportunity of posting that very response that the only scenario that could have topped it was immediately discovering in the next post that you had so eloquently already delivered it! 😂 my deepest gratitude, thank you 

5 hours ago, JeffreyBoring said:

Does it get better?

Well….yes and no. I found myself cringing through many or probably most romantic plots and other dynamics besides (why the eff is everyone in this universe spanking each other? It’s the accepted discipline tactic within an organization of grown adults, and commonly and casually used in conversations as an appropriate approach for men to use against women) .yet I still consider myself a super fan and inexplicably found myself tolerating and accepting some themes that otherwise would deter me and kept me reading and loving the series. 

On 8/17/2023 at 5:49 PM, Samt said:

I’m not sure I really get the symbolic difference between a leash and a muzzle. Both are things you put on a dog and are dehumanizing.  My main objection to the change is that it feels like a meaningless change that the showrunners are making to prove to the book fans that they can do whatever they want and they don’t care what fans think.  
 

A man tells a woman that he loves her deeply and that he just wants her to cut and dye her hair, lose 20 lbs, change her clothing and makeup style, quit her job, learn to cook, convert to his religion, adopt his political views, and indulge his weird sexual fetishes. Rafe saying he loves Wheel of Time has the same energy.

For the record I don’t have a strong personal opinion about the portrayal of the damane on screen, but your point starting with “a man tells a woman…” definitely makes me think…and I appreciate any perspective that makes me think 

On 8/15/2023 at 6:04 PM, WheelofJuke said:

I'm thoroughly enjoying my first full reread and the foreshadowing in books 1-4, at least, is exquisite, imho. 🙂

 

I’m also rereading for the first time. I already look forward to the rereading the first 4-5 even though I haven’t completed the first reread yet! I’m on book 10.

I realize that I’m on my own island here, but I kinda appreciated the maturing of sexuality in the show. The characters in the books seemed so prudish and downright unrealistic to me. Except, of course, when those same characters suddenly become a ok with a poly relationship. It’s not that simple, a different universe, I know. Just saying. 

On 8/15/2023 at 7:32 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Egwene makes a comment right when Mat tells her Gareth is tanking the battle, where she tells a story about Mat. I don’t have the book to hand and am trying to remember it but Years ago a child had fallen into the river and I think pretended to be drowning or was not in real difficulty, Mat had dived in to save them and then been laughed at for doing so. As he had walked off he had made a comment about “save your bloody selves next time then I won’t do it.” A year later however another child was in the same predicament and Mat again dived in and this time did save the child from dying. 
 

as she says Mat can be insufferable, refuse to accept responsibility, be stubborn and wool headed but, he always does the right thing and always thinks of, looks out for and protects others. 
 

Mat never wanted to be a hero, never wanted to put himself in danger, but, when needed he always did the right thing, that just wasn’t always the thing others thought he should do in that moment, but always turns out to be the right choice long term. 

Absolutely. Well said. Not only wasn’t always what others thought he should do, but usually even he didn’t think he should do it 😂 He is the best example of a reluctant hero that I can think of. He took olver in. He rescued the women from ebou dar and was deeply troubled by the inevitable losses of lives and the inability to save everyone. Even after he put himself at risk to rescue the girls in tear, and subsequently was not appreciated for his efforts, he was still prepared to risk his life again and again for people with no benefit to himself. Case in point, moiraine. He not only knowingly put himself in danger, he paid a hefty price for her life and freedom. I think he is such a genuine person with inherent integrity, in spite of or more likely because of his lack of awareness and intention Or trying to be a noble hero. The perception and treatment of him by the girls always makes me have a hard time liking them.