Wondering what will become of loial and crew based on the finale of season one. Did the trailer for season two ever show them?

I’m hoping for the it gets better viewpoint if for no other reason than the books themselves sure did. It depends on the individual audience member and their perspective and capacity for open mindedness though, as always. IMO. 

10 hours ago, Elglin said:

Well, you've asked, now you get an answer 🙂.

 

I've tried re-watching it a couple of weeks ago. I found out that I managed to watch the, um, "palatable" parts, of which there were fewer than I would've liked. Scrolled through the rest.

I think I've found Ishamael's scenes more acceptable on this re-watch, but nothing else.

One very unhealthy advice is to re-watch with the daughter, but arm yourself with some popcorn or (if the daughter approves) a beer. I got through a pair of really dumb kid shows this way :).

I love your style. Beer and popcorn is going to improve a situation every time 😂

Relationships can be healthy or unhealthy regardless of societal norms, wot world included. Additionally everyone has their own beliefs about the subject and how they define it one way or the other. I hate to rely on cliche, but it does apply here. Communication, agency, and free choice between partners is usually a good foundation. I agree faile and Perrin have a foundation based on actual love, but it was agonizing for me to read through the confusing dissent between them stemming from a situation lacking communication and expecting a mind reading scenario based on game playing and manipulation on failes part. Same thing with Elayne and her letters to Rand, or really any of the main love relationships. Having said that, it is very accurate and authentic in terms of how most relationships play out. Which is why I love wot. Very realistic. 

On 7/30/2023 at 12:24 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

When you consider that Tolkien is the grandfather of all fantasy and inspireRobert Jordan directly, and that Tolkien’s own inspiration came from the myths, legends and stories of our own ancestors then it is easy to draw parallels between LOTR and WOT. In fact I have seen this very comparison played out on forums about most fantasy book series, how the series mirrors LOTR. 
 

I will say however that I also think comparisons here are more a desire to see something that actually isn’t there. Robert Jordan structured his own world with his own thoughts and ideas and, while he was no doubt inspired, in many cases patterns seen at a distance are usually the human brain trying to find links. 
 

On this the human brain is remarkable, you can show a person a picture of a natural surface, for instance another planet, and they will instantly see patterns and refuse to accept they are natural. The same is true for art, people want to see influences and so pull out threads that are not actually there. Robert Jordan said many times he was inspsired by Tolkien as an author, but WOT was not inspired by LOTR other then his publisher asked for a LOTR style fantasy story so book 1 mirrors many of the tropes. I feel RJ drew his cultural and story ideas for WOT direct from many sources, some of which may also have inspired Tolkien. 

True. Content is categorized into genres for a reason. It’s valid IMO to pay homage and give credit and respect to the pioneers and forerunners who inspired the genre, but I don’t see why every future creation within the genre needs to be forever compared to the original and considered less valuable or innovative simply because it’s derivative in some way. 

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

At least one Damme is 400 years old and has barely aged at all, might be one of the ones captured and held by the kin. It is a throwaway comment or sentence.’

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I think it’s the rogue damane who is super powerful and supposedly “helps Rand die”. I forget her name but I do remember her age being mentioned, as you said kinda almost like a throwaway comment, and it was well into the centuries. Maybe 400ish like you stated. 

11 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

One of the Forsaken comments to herself about the limitations the Aes Sedai put on themselves by using the oath rod. In the age of legends the oath rod was a punishment used as a last resort to ensure the criminal never committed the crime again but also that they would lead a far shorter life. It therefore acts as a form of death sentence. I am pretty sure one of the forsaken escaped to pledge to the dark lord before she was due to be punished. 
 

Aes Sedai seem to think that using the one power more or less impacts lifespan but this assumption is wrong. They come to the belief because they assume the kin are so long lived and age so differently because they barely channel. The fact that stilling has a similar effect on the look of an aes sedai (making them de age), just reinforces this incorrect belief. Especially if you consider that Damme channel with far more regularity and powerful weaves and also don’t age like an aes sedai. 

Excellent points. I believe it was semhiragh (sorry I can’t spell) who turned to the DO to avoid the punishment you described. There is also a moment where one of the forsaken says “do they bind themselves as criminals?” I think in regards to sharans but referring to the AS oaths which initially pertained to criminals. I’m intrigued by your statement about damane. I never noticed that in all of the mentions about age in the books regarding channelers, I missed it entirely if damane were included in that subject. 

On 7/27/2023 at 9:56 AM, DojoToad said:

My wife is starting to switch over to electronic books.  Don't think I ever will though.  I look at a screen enough for work.

I’m with you. Not necessarily for the same reason, I just have a thing about preferring to read the book…not sure exactly how to explain or articulate why, but I get the most enjoyment out of turning real pages in an actual book. I’m sure at least some of it comes from preexisting screen saturation though, as you said. I can’t do audiobooks either though 🤷‍♀️

On 7/25/2023 at 12:37 PM, king of nowhere said:

don't forget the staring, sniffing, and pulling of braids

And the blinking and blushing! 

16 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Those figures are just aspects of Logain's madness. I don't believe they are prior Dragons. 

 

Rafe can always explicitly make them prior Dragons to emphasize the show lore that Dragons can be both male and female

I see your point in that the show can portray it either as pure madness or definitively derivative of previous dragons, and furthermore using this to illustrate gender not being a factor informing show lore.
 

I seem to recall that Logain at least is certain that they are past versions of himself as the dragon, so I’m curious to see if/how the show will portray the madness factor. Meaning will it be presented as undoubtedly pure madness caused by the taint or will it be ambiguous to a degree leaving viewers wondering. I’ll admit I’m not convinced that what we get in the book version of this scenario could be explained only as madness …I would say more like a specific form of madness based on a specific and explainable reality for the individual and their prior incarnations. It will be interesting to see how the show handles the taint/madness situation. 

On 7/26/2023 at 10:42 AM, wotfan4472 said:

Yes. There has always for me been a strong impression that the taint on Saidin was more than just madness. To me, Ishy always screamed a wraith, or a ghost in the first three books.

 

Agreed on Aginor and Balthamel basically being corpses at two different stages of decomposition.

 

As for the taint being more, we saw from Nynaeve looking at Rand's mind that it had dark webs identical to the compulsion she saw on that poor kid's mind in The Gathering Storm.

 

Then there is the really long winter in The Eye Of The World to take into account, which a weakening and later broken seal does not account for. The Dark One had to be touching the world for a longer period. We also see large cables coming off a number of Forsaken.

 

That always lead me to believe that the Dark One could bypass the seals and touch the world stronger when Ishy was out during the Trolloc Wars and The War Of The Hundred Years.

Thank you for your insights! I really like your observations. I’m guessing the situation was specific to ishy, meaning it wasn’t happenstance that he was the one who wasn’t fully imprisoned and not some other forsaken?

Good observation! I’m already looking forward to my next reread especially of the early books to notice and appreciate the foreshadowing and the intricacies layered in the writing. I’m still working my way through only my first reread, so I’m nowhere near the point where the full scope of the story telling has sunk in, but it’s quite clear and mind blowing how much groundwork is being laid and how much thought and detail RJ infused into every aspect of the world he built. It’s honestly baffling to me. I’m reading the words and absorbing the content and completely engrossed in the story but there’s always a part of my attention that is focused on “how the eff did RJ come up with all of this!” It’s beyond simply excellent writing and storytelling, IMO. I don’t know how to articulate what it is, but it hits me as genius level creativity to build a world of that complexity and translate it into words. Sorry for jumping on the original post and then going on a rambling tangent! I don’t have anyone to talk to about this stuff irl and I just needed to say it somewhere!! Thank you WOT community 😊

Is there any explanation for why ishy wasn’t imprisoned as thoroughly as the other forsaken? 

I will add my two cents just to throw it out there, knowing I am alone on my own island 😂 I kind of like to see it as Rand mastering the “dream” of life, if viewed through the aiel interpretation of life being a dream from which all will eventually wake. I can’t remember the exact culture but the people who live where one of the chodan kal is buried viewed it as an illusion as well and when the sphere “came online” it was said something like the time of illusion is coming to an end. That being said, we know that mastery of TAR is possible once someone comes to realize that as a dream like world it responds to consciousness and they can create anything they desire there out of their own minds. In addition we have many spiritual beliefs in our own world that align with this idea that reality is fluid, dreamlike, and responds to self aware beings using their consciousness to mold and create their reality. For example when we see beings such as the Buddha or Jesus who demonstrated the ability to alter reality, this belief explains it in a similar way, that they learned mastery of mind over matter. This made me get to the point where I enjoy my own little belief that Rand has achieved mastery of this dream world just as mastery of TAR is possible. Just one of my pet theories, every so often I like to believe my own version of events. 😊

1 hour ago, Gypsum said:

 

I think that's one of the most true-to-life aspects of the series. Have you met the US Congress? Or the British Parliament, for that matter.

Exactly. Whether in our world or WOT, the witnessing of grown adults behaving in such selfish and inhumane ways is extremely upsetting to me. I don’t fault the portrayal of the AS in the books, as you pointed out it’s quite realistic. I love and appreciate the authenticity. It is one of those things that gets to me, not because I don’t grasp its reality and reasons for existing (our world or WOT). I should have included a disclaimer in my post that my intent was to vent my frustration with the fact that this is so prevalent in society, but I genuinely appreciate RJ portraying it so honestly. 

18 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

It could be Moghedien he was talking about. She was in Ebou Dar, and was doing the same thing.

 

It is possible that the Seeker may have thought she was connected to Elyane and Nyneave, whom he saw around the city, and was in direct earshot of at least once without getting spotted.

Oh ok. So whoever it was wove a disguise to look like Tuon? I immediately assumed semirrage because she’s acting as anath tuons truth speaker and she also later poses as tuon in her encounter with Rand. Thanks for providing additional possibilities. 

20 hours ago, KarlaRoeser said:

Losing someone we love is incredibly difficult, and my heart goes out to you during this challenging time. While I can't recommend a specific passage from the Wheel of Time series, I can understand the significance it held for your husband. It's a beautiful idea to include something from his favorite series at the funeral as a tribute to him.As I was browsing online, trying to find some information about death and funerals, I came across your post. It resonated with me because I recently lost my dad, and I've been going through a similar process of planning a funeral. It's a time when we want to honor and celebrate the person we've lost. Also, while searching online, I came across some flat grave marker designs, and I'm thinking that it might be an option. What do you think?

I wanted to extend my empathy and compassion on the loss of your dad. I recently lost my dad and it was very therapeutic to have a celebration of his life rather than a traditional memorial or funeral. We waited 3 months after he died so we could take our time planning and processing and preparing to celebrate more than grieve. My heart goes out to you and the original poster. 

When the seeker comes to karede to discuss the disappearance of tuon and other things, he presents information about a girl meeting a specific description who has been sighted in ebou dar extorting merchants or some such story. They seem convinced of the accuracy and authenticity of this intel. I was kind of confused overall whether or not I was picking up on the situation, so I may be operating on a false premise, but I got the impression that they believe this girl to potentially or even probably be tuon. If I got that part right, and since we know that is not her, then who is it? It also is mentioned that her truth speaker has taken to seclusion. Are we to assume that this is semerrage posing as tuon or what exactly is going on with this narrative?

9 hours ago, Samt said:

This is a really insightful observation.  The 7 Ajahs seem like a weird set of mismatched approaches that don't seem to support a top down theory of their creation.  However, if you think of them as the result of every Aes Sedai just choosing to focus on the one thing that she thinks the mission of the tower overall should be, they actually make a lot of sense.  

 

It's easy to argue that the most important thing for the tower to do would be to 

• preserve knowledge
• negotiate peace
• fight the shadow
• heal people
• prevent another breaking
• rely on logic
• (whatever the blues do, seek justice maybe)

Actually, I think this approach explains the blue as well.   Blue might just be the "none of the above" answer.  It's just the Ajah of any Aes Sedai that thinks the answer to "what should the white tower do" is not covered in the other 6 Ajahs.   

Good point. I wish the ajahs had more communication and collaboration between them though. The clear division of each ajah and the way they stick to themselves and don’t work together is irritating to me. The WT is symbol enough in my opinion that AS consider themselves superior to the general population and therefore should be separated, isolated and mysterious. The fact that they take this even further and create divisions and secretive factions even among themselves strikes me as catty, petty, self indulgent behavior that in many ways prevents them from actually contributing to the greater good, like the AS of the AOL, because they’re too busy maneuvering and manipulating circumstances for their own purposes. 

15 hours ago, Vartija said:

I have a similar experience. I try to start with new fantasy series or old series that I haven't read in a while, but still can't really escape that feeling of wanting to get back to WoT instead. Especially with the tv-series coming along, I really want to refresh my memory of the books as well. I'm not that experienced with other fantasy works but I have to admit I've yet to find a series that hooked me as much as WoT did and still does. With other works I can put the book down for days or weeks but with WoT it was nonstop reading from start to finish. 

 

My last re-read was in summer 2021 just months before season 1 premiered so maybe it's time to get back to it before season 2 begins.  

I so totally relate. I have to make another confession. I’m always embarrassed when I tell someone that I love to read and then end up looking like a fool when it becomes evident that I haven’t heard of any of the books they bring up assuming a self declared reading lover would know. On top of that when they ask, “ok well what HAVE you read?” And my answer is, basically, WOT on repeat (preceded by frequently rereading ASOIF and before that repeated rereading Harry Potter). I definitely have read other books besides those, but I have come to realize that I don’t necessarily love to read in general, but I love to read what I love to read over and over again 😂

The more I think about the point made earlier by Samt about how/if the ability to channel has any relevance to the purpose of the ajahs, the more it interests me. Most of the ajahs have a purpose that does not inherently require the ability or use of channeling. Red, green and yellow highlight the ability but the others don’t. My point is just that to me it illustrates how AS see themselves as being important and superior in general, whether channeling is involved or not. 

On 7/10/2023 at 10:01 PM, Patrick91 said:

The letter that Moiraine gave Thom and Matt read in book 11 chapter 10 touched my heart strings.

I was so blown away when we realize how many times Thom tried to attract mats attention to the letter!

10 hours ago, Samt said:

It definitely seems that the blues are doing a lot, and far more than some of the other Ajahs are actually doing.  It was just always unclear to me as to what specifically their assignment/mission was.  The yellows, for instance, have a very clear mission, but don't actually seem to be doing very much at all.  

I think we can grade each of the Ajahs on clarity of mission, importance of mission (including whether or not the mission requires use of the one power to be successful), and actual implementation/ execution as shown in the books (meaning how well the members of the Ajah execute their mission or just generally make important contributions to the world).  I would say:

 

Yellow:

      Clarity: A.  They do healing.  This is clear and specific.

      Importance: A.  Healing people and finding new cures is important.  Also, the one power helps to heal people, so it's important that channelers be committed to this.

      Implementation: D.  The yellow Ajah in the books (pre-Nynaeve) is super bad at actually healing people and learning new methods of healing.  They don't seem to be particularly well placed in order to heal the general population and address outbreaks, serious injuries, etc.  The yellows should be doing a lot to build the image of the white tower and improve the lives of the general population, but they don't really seem to be doing any of that.  They also don't appear to be effectively researching new healing weaves or methods.  

Red: 

     Clarity: A.  They protect the world from crazy male channelers.

     Importance: A.  You can't let crazy people with super powers run around and destroy the world.  And really only channelers would have a reasonable chance of stopping crazy male channelers.

     Implementation: A.  The red Ajah seems to actually be interested in fulfilling its mission and is more or less doing a good job of it.  Male channelers do sometimes do some damage when they go crazy, but they aren't doing anything on the same scale as happened during the breaking and you can probably thank the reds for this.  

 

Gray:  

     Clarity: B.  They are negotiators and that basically makes sense.  However, it's a bit murky as to whether they are just negotiating to keep peace, or to better the white tower, or for the world in general.  Negotiation is a means to an end.  They don't exactly have a clear goal, but we can assume that it's mostly just keeping order in the world.  

     Importance: C.  Negotiation is important, but I think it's unclear why channelers should be the negotiators.  It is not shown that the grays use compulsion or other weaves in order to aid in negotiation.  They just talk.  And anyone could do that. That said, just being Aes Sedai gives them more leverage and credibility, so it's not completely ridiculous.  

     Implementation: B.  They more or less do what they are supposed to.  The grays get credit for being out there and doing the things that they claim to be their mission, even if it isn't exactly something that only Aes Sedai could do.  

 

Green:  

    Clarity: B.  They are the battle Ajah and that is clear.  The reason I don't give this an A because they are supposed to be preparing for the last battle in particular, and that kind of mucks things up.  If they were just committed to fighting shadowspan, that would be clearer and more actionable.  

    Importance: A.  Evil is real and using the one power to fight it is important and practical.  

    Implementation: D.  Seriously, the green Ajah is a disappointment in how they actually act in the books.  Of course, some of this is because they are preparing for the last battle rather than fighting right now.  But still, Trollocs are regularly attacking the borderlands.  While some parts of the world think they are ghost stories, there are lots of people that very much know shadowspan are real and appear regularly.  Why is the green Ajah apparently not involved at all in defending the borderlands?  This would give them actual battle experience, weaken the shadow, and generally actually have an effect on the world.  Instead, in TEoTW, there are no Aes Sedai in Fal Dara when the main characters show up.  This is literally one of the critical geographic choke points to hold off the blight.  What are the greens actually doing?  Warder orgies?

 

White:

   Clarity: C.  The whites are logic and math, but maybe also philosophy and just generally abstract reasoning.  It's pretty vague and it's unclear what level of math and logic they actually have.

   Importance: D.  I don't think this really rises to the level of something that you should dedicate an Ajah to.  And I say that as something with an advanced STEM degree.  There is a reason that governments don't have a department or ministry of logic.  Logic is not really a goal or mission.  It is a tool.  It should be applied everywhere, but doesn't need it's own thing dedicated to it.  Also, it's not clear why you need the one power to study logic.  

    Implementation: D.  The whites don't seem to really be doing anything useful with their mission and don't seem to contribute otherwise.  

 

Brown: 

   Clarity: B.  Acquisition of knowledge is a pretty clear goal.  The only thing that isn't super clear is if they are focused on things related to the one power and AS history or are they sort of just interested in everything.  

  Importance: B.  Knowledge is very important and some of the research requires the one power to do.  However, I mark this down since I don't think the one power is required for some of the research they do and so that seems a bit of a waste.  

  Implementation: C.  The Browns get caught up researching lots of stuff that doesn't matter.  But they are still also learning interesting and useful things, so you have to give them some credit.  

 

Blue:  

   Clarity: D.  I have no real idea what the blues are doing.  They have "causes."  They also have the best spy network.  But what is the plan?  

   Importance: C.  They do lots of important things, but we don't really know if that is even related to their mission.  

   Implementation: B.  The blues kind of just do whatever they want, but they do accomplish some important things.  

I appreciate your summarization and really like your point about if the one power is actually of any relevance to the purpose of certain ajahs. Also I agree with your assessment regarding the green and how much more they could/should be doing to fight against the shadow and its spawn. 

I remember grays being described as mediators and whites were always about “cool logic” but I also was confused about their function. Every other ajah has at least some vague function attached to their ajah, but I have no clue what use there is for the white. I agree that the blue is difficult to define to some degree, but the blues themselves seem to believe they have a purpose. I always saw them as more of an intelligence agency than “cause” fighters, but either way they seem to know what they’re about even if they’re secretive about it. The whites, on the other hand, I don’t understand and can’t figure out why anyone would be drawn to choosing it. It does seem like they could have easily been incorporated into the brown with no need for white to exist. 

I’m going to add a question here rather than start a new thread since it’s related. After being stilled and then the age regression, will the aging process resume normally from there? In the case of the severing being healed as with siuan and leane, assuming they lived a natural lifespan and did not retake the oaths, are they considered to essentially be reset to the younger age therefore potentially living even longer than the channelers who didn’t take the oaths? I don’t know if we can do anything more than speculate but this age factor and all of its variations is very intriguing to me. I wonder if the AS were to figure out the effect of the oath rod and stilling on age, combined with the ability to heal severing, if some would actually choose to be stilled and then healed?