It's a change made not with respect to the previous work but to drive the showrunner's own personal political leanings and worldview.

If you were making your own work and seeking to make a statement about society, totally fine with that. Changing the source material that came before on this basis is not showing respect to the source material.

The only thing this does is polarize those with a great deal of respect for the source material and satisfy a small subset of the watching population. This change did not have to be made and it is detrimental to the success of the show. 

Just quoting myself from other thread here since this seems place to talk about it:

I don't like the change and think it really undermines some of the key tensions that exists in the story. Makes me worried that Rafe really doesn't underestand what I consider to be the heart of the tension in Wheel of Time.

Doesn't mean it won't be a good show, but hate that the gender essentialism is basically removed.

I don't like the change and think it really undermines some of the key tensions that exists in the story. Makes me worried that Rafe really doesn't underestand what I consider to be the heart of the tension in Wheel of Time.

Doesn't mean it won't be a good show, but hate that the gender essentialism is basically removed. 

I have serious issues with Bela being a dark horse. Entirely too woke and completely misrepresentative of her role in the story. 

?

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

Hard to say as I’m not a first time viewer obviously but keeping the prophecy as is and at the same time saying they don’t if it’s a boy or a girl is likely to create confusion in viewers. Even reading generously, part of the foretelling can only be read as pertaining to the baby in question being born and not LTT. It’s not LTT lying in the snow crying.

You're focusing too much on the foretelling itself, no offense. Look at the trailer/clip in it's whole.

She says that a dragon existed and it was a He. And we don't know if "he" has been reborn into a boy or a girl. 

So for gitarja's foretelling, that he can specifically refer to Lews Therin being reborn. That's if they keep this prophesy. If they do keep it, then they don't need to change anything. The soul of Lews Therin (HE) is reborn. Doesn't require that He be reborn into a male body. 

I mean there is no change needed to Gitarja's prophesy.

They know the original Dragon was a male. "We don't know if he was reborn as a girl or a boy."

"He" in the prophesy refers to Lews Therin, not whatever child was born. 

6 hours ago, Rose said:

 

They're doing this on purpose to keep us confused. Next it'll be "one of the six of you" (the sixth candidate is Bela of course) ?

Bela is the true dragon reborn. That's my story and I'm sticking too it. 

After seeing some of the changes in the trailers, I'm actually not rereading because I don't want to be fixated on things like "Oh I don't like that change, oh i don't like that change." 

It's been enough years since I did a reread that the tv show should feel pretty fresh. ?

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What do horses channel? 

The Spirit of Freddie Mercury 

5 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

 

I'm somewhat exhausted with countering this particular argument, but in fairness to you I don't expect you to dig through the pages and pages of posts about this either lol.. The point is that even if what Moraine is saying is an "Aes Sedai truth," it doesn't really make sense as one. I can say "the sky is either pink or blue," but it doesn't make sense to say it because nobody will be fooled by something that is so clearly wrong. The Dragon Reborn is male, and everybody from the lowest backwater farmer to the highest king knows this. Changes to this fact would, in many of our views, have huge ramifications to the lore and worldbuilding. #1 falls along the same line, none of us yet are seriously concerned about somebody other than Rand being the DR. 

Calling it now.

Bela is the DR.

Yeah looks like we're going to see an almost series long tension of Who is the Dragon?

Personally my money is on Bela being the Dragon Reborn.

It's a different experience than I was expecting I suppose, but I'm not opposed to it if the execution is well done.

Much happier about this teaser than some of the others.

The 19th needs to get here sooner!

34 minutes ago, Rose said:

This is getting tiresome y'all. There's so much new and interesting stuff in this clip and the other promo materials they're dropping, and now Sarah's comments on Twitter which I hadn't seen, and I want to dig into them and analyze and speculate. But I can't because the thread where we're supposed to be discussing these things is full of comments about how this is bad and not like the books and Rafe has ruined wheel of time with his woke agenda.

 

I get it, you don't like the changes. Can you please let the rest of us who are still invested continue to discuss things in peace?

 

We haven't even touched on the map or the angreal yet. This entire thread has been clogged with angst about gender dynamics.

I'll say this. I am loving the aescethics and the general vibe we're seeing here. The trolloc in the previous trailer looked monstrous and terrifying and I'm just loving all the vibes.

Moraine's outfit is fire.

The angreal looks kinda generic but it works. 

I'm not sure about the clip as the first one minute of the show though. Feels very tropey and better suited to marketing. I always imagine the first minute would involve Rand in the woods with a dark figure looking down from a distance. 

15 minutes ago, Elgee said:

 

I would say "how shallow" but then I look at Logain ... ??

Haha! I'll praise their actual acting when I see it on screen, but for now it's just "these are pretty people that look how I would imagine these character's to look."

Beautiful posters. I actually really love the actor's they've cast jutst based on looks. 

1 minute ago, WhiteVeils said:

Yes, if another person other than Rand was the Dragon Reborn, then it'd be a change way too big for me. But that's not coming.  There are going to be bigger changes than what Moiraine knows or doesn't know when she starts her adventure.  There have to be.  You have to show what's in people's heads. You have to cut out bits that are relevant later on, and find different ways to do them. You have to keep an audience that risks being turned off of it like a joke, because this is really, really hard to adapt.  Enjoy this is as it's own thing, or don't.  But this pre-panicking seems just....like the goal is to try to express to the world how fiercely you are determined to express as much hostility as possible to more liberal POVs.  Let it be itself, as if the books didn't exist at all, if you can't accept that it's going to be different.
 

 

Very Fair take and one I'm striving to mentally emulate. 

It's hard when you care about a world like this so much and you're nervous. ?

I hope I'm blown away by the quality and story-telling. 

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Just as you're trying to diminish other's who are claiming this isn't a big deal?

 

I've been consistent that it's possible with the information we have now, that RJ's gender essentialism can be intact, while including more unreliable narrators.

 

 

 

Not at all. You're welcome to say it's not a big deal to you. 

And Moraine is not allowed to be an unreliable narrator on this facet. This would be like Gandalf not being sure if Sauron was a bad guy or not. Maybe she's unreliable but if she is it fundamentally alters Moraine's character and her competency ceteris paribus .

The goalposts keep moving and it's weird. 

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

 

Every few years, we get people on Dragonmount that jump on a soap box, getting mad over the unjust treatment of males in the wheel of time universe, and how they hate all the women in the series. 

Not a single one of them, has ever taken a step back and thought "Huh, being treated like shit based on my gender really sucks. Is this what it's like for women in our society?".

 

 

 

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? Yes. Part of RJ's story is to show that. 

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

Same. Which is why minor changes like these, which can be explained away aren't a problem. Major changes like Egwene actually being the Dragon, or Perrin becoming a bear brother are far more concerning to me. Hell, I hope they don't get rid of his golden eyes!

 

 

This isn't a minor change to me though. You say it can be explained away? Sure, but I don't see how you can explain these things away without undermining key tensions and themes in the series. Sure you can make it make sense, but you sacrifice key tensions that I found important when I read the series.

And honestly Perrin becoming a bear brother wouldn't be a huge change. Just replace the wolves with bears. Good to go right? It doesn't change the narrative at all, just changes the animal. 

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

. With the information we have right now, it's possible for both to exist because Moiraine is an "unreliable narrator".

 

 

This is not how movie/tv trailers work. Moraine is breaking the fourth wall. Her words are to be taken as true unless stated otherwise and we've seen nothing to indicate that it's not untrue. Until she proves herself to be an unreliable narrator, we have to assume she's speaking fact. 

And if you're right, then this undermines her character's competence. Or it changes the world entirely. 

@SinisterDeath Just because all those things can still happen doesn't mean that they happen for the same reason and as I have stated above, lessens the weight and emotional depth that is connected to those events.

It's fine that you don't think the Dragon having to be male is necessary for you to feel the emotional tension at a high level in these instances. I think it's pretty clear that you don't find the gender essentialism (regardless of it's actual existen IRL) in WoT  to actually be essential to the story (heh). 

But you keep trying to diminish very real concerns people have by basically saying "No, your concerns are unjustified because we can keep everything the same." But...it's not the same. The motivations are different. The weight is different for those of us who found the gender essentialism tension in WoT to be one of it's greatest facets.

I don't agree with all of RJ's interpretations of gender. I don't think he portrayed an accurate essentialism of what occurs in the real world, but I do recognize that it is what exists in his work and it plays a key theme and role in the story.

Soapbox:

My hope originally for this show is that it could have been a kind of cultural zeitgeist, more than just a good fantasy television. A zeitgeist moment exemplifying "Sometimes people of different groups don't under stand each other, but we're stronger together."

Imagine a TV show with the cultural influence of GoT promoting a kind of unity between different identity groups. I hope they can still lean into that. It's desperately needed in this day and age.

/soapbox.

Either way, I get that it's not something you find vital to the story, but for many of us, it was. So our concerns are reasonable and we can still hope that the show turns out well enough. I'm still excited for the show. I'm excited for my wife who's never experienced Wheel of Time to learn to love the characters I grew up with. I'm excited to see these characters in all their elements. 

Just hope it doesn't become unrecognizable. 

Edit: @Beidomon Thanks for the shout out ? Haha. I promise I'm a nice person in real life and there is no need for actual body bags  ?

Honestly it boils down to them making the key tension of season one “Who is the dragon?” More prominent.

They’ve made Rand and Egwene much closer from the start so I imagine this will be a much more dramatic split when it’s revealed Rand is the dragon and not Egwene. Expect the first season to be full of frustration as they constantly hint at Egwene being the dragon only to turn at the end to reveal its Rand.

3 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Men aren't mistrusted solely because the DR will be a man. Men are also (and mostly) mistrusted because all men who channel go mad. It's been confirmed in promotional materials that men going mad from the taint (oops, sorry, the "corruption" ?) is still a thing in the series, so the basis for men being mistrusted in the world still exists.

 

 

Yeah, I agree that they will have to edit a number things to avoid plot holes. I think it can be done, but we'll see how well they pull it off. I would especially be interesred in seeing if there are now also women false Dragons and how those play out (are they wilders? I'm assuming the Tower wouldn't let any Aes Sedai just up and proclaim herself the Dragon).

 

 

 

So just to clarify, I’m not saying being DR is the sole reason, but it not being there lessens the weight of this.

There is level of magnitude here that gets lost.

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Does it really? I don't think it does, you think it does. So who's right?

 

Tell you what.

 

What's worse.

Telling someone they have stage 4 cancer.

Or telling someone they have stage 4 cancer, and we think we found the cure, only wait, the cure didn't work and now you're still going to die after having your hope obliterated?

Because it matters to Rand and male characters.

and their character growth. It’s a source of their chafing against the females. 
 

it’s an underlying tension.  

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

How is that discrimination lost?

Are male channelers still not to be feared? 

Is a Male Dragon not to be feared?

Do Aes Sedai and Women not put forward that Males destroyed the world?

The exclusivity matters.

the fact that it can only be a male who is the dragon reborn matters.

that only a man can bring about the end of the world is a higher level than just the same the points you lost above.

rge things you list are scary but manageable. It happened in the past or AES Sedai can handle it now. 
 

But the Dragon. A harbinger of fate destined to bring about the end is another level 

that is what is lost when you remove that exclusivity

you remove the element of gender essentialism that it is a man who will end the world 

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

The narrative in the EoTW, is it's obvious Rand is the DR.

So what's the emotional weight we're losing?

I've already shared in the above. You're losing the tension of men not being trusted. You're losing the discrimination that Rand has to overcome. You lose the unique reasons why men are not trusted.

Those things could still exist for sure....but the reason they exist loses it's punch. 

You lose the gender essentialism that plays a key theme throughout the series and that Rand overcomes. 

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

Casting a black actor for a role is hardly a change.
Casting a Male to play a canonically Female character, is far bigger/noticeable change.

Changing a character's sexual orientation to something other than straight when it's never spelled out in the books is hardly a change.
Make Perrin a bear, and changing Faile into a burly dude, is a far bigger change.

 

I have yet to see any changes that are actually going to noticeably change the narrative as a whole.

The enjoyment of the narrative is heavily dependent on background lore that gives weight to the narrative itself.

The narrative can be the exact same but lack the emotional weight.

For example you could have the journey of Frodo be exactly the same, but let's say he gets the ring via finding it in a shoebox rather than handed down by Bilbo. In fact let's say that Bilbo doesn't even exist and it was gollum who hid the ring in a shoebox.

The narrative journey of Frodo doesn't change at all, but the emotional weight of the moments do.

Marketing. 

47 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

True changes would be...
Rand isn't the dragon. Egwene is.

Callandor is a Giant Vibrator.

The White Cloaks have access to anti-aes sedai ter'angrael and have become a dominate foe in randland, wiping out the entire seanchan plotline.

There's only 3 forsaken, and they're all named steve.

Logain is killed by Elaida.

Verin and Moiraine are mreged.

Egwene never becomes Amyrlin

 

Nyneave never marry's lan.

I think this is the chief difference here. You're limiting true changes to events that happen...not what has happened.

Things could happen exactly the same in the show but without the lore backing it up it won't have the same heart.