On 10/1/2022 at 3:54 PM, Sabio said:

In WInter's Heart the answer is given on who ordered it, but never stated why to kill Rand at that time.

 

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In Winter's Heart (page 509) when Rand was hunting the renegade Ashaman, Kisman was thinking how the M'hael ordered them to kill Rand before sending them to Cairhein and was displeased they were found out and failed.  Then Demandred later ordered them to kill Rand.  And later still Moridin said to kill Rand if they must but to bring him everything in Rand's possession.  But seemed not care if Rand was killed or not.  The attack was commanded by Taim.  But other's wanted him dead.  Moridin mostly wanted the Choden Kal and it's possible Dem wanted Rand dead to stop the cleansing.

 

I am aware of those two. I am just confused about why Darshiva disappeared for soo long after hearing that information, then shows up to fight. The only conclusion is the Dark One was ordering Darshiva directly. He could have sent orders through the other two in the process.

I still think that Darshiva was in the Dark One's direct presence that whole length of time. 

On 9/19/2022 at 9:07 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I agree that Black Ajah Sitters and Mesaana were involved but the impetus came from Elaida and the majority of her supporters were not black.  Indeed the Aes Sedai in general are in denial about the Black Ajah and so the Black Ajah's involvement does does not play a factor in the opposition to Elaida. 

 

On a tangent, I think the Black Ajah were mishandled in the story.  At the start they are a secret society whose existence is rumoured but has never been discovered or any individual sister's allegiance proven.  E.G. Elaida and her supporters seem completely unaware of the existence of the Black Ajah until Seiane and Pevara (using the oath rod) uncover Talene (a Green Sitter) and Seaine actually misunderstands her orders from Elaida who simply wants her to provide a pretext for removing Alviarin rather than hunting the Black Ajah.  As the story goes on we learn they are organised in to hearts, groups of three, with each knowing only the identity of one other sister outside the heart. 

 

This seems fine for a small secret society hidden in The Tower but the final revelation in the last few books that there are hundreds of black sisters, and that something between one in four and one in three Aes Sedai are really darkfriends is too much.  Did none of those hundreds ever utter a lie, however trivial, in the hearing of another sister, in the three thousand years The Tower has stood?  I mean look at how easily Verin revealed herself to Egwene, intentionally of course but it shows how easy it is to slip in a little white lie in an unguarded moment, or how Galina lied to Faile in attempting to escape Thevara.

 

Egwene's procedural changes are smart and add stability but she is only able to do this as a "strong" Amyrlin at the peak of her powers after her inspirational defence of The Tower against the Seanchan.  The Aes Sedai are revealed as intensely competitive, ambitious and jealous of their own prerogatives, and Tower politics to be a petty, dangerous and backstabbing morass at the best of times, so it's also easy to see a future Hall taking back powers and prerogatives from a future Amyrlin (not Cadsuane, though!), particularly as the Black Ajah is believed annihilated.

I agree with the Black Ajah's use in the books. All it would have taken was the Aes Sedai acknowledging it in the Tower, among themselves, while denying it to the world. That would have kept up the issues plaguing the Aes Sedai.

As for Verin, remember the lie she told Rand in The Great Hunt we all missed because we thought we imagined it.

All it takes is one of those kinds of lies, and add in the Aes Sedai fully denying, and it is soo simple in its execution in the books. We saw through Galina, because we all hated her already. Faile's reaction is ours with Verin, which makes it all so interesting.

The Hall may crawl back some authority, but it will be very slow, because of Egwene's laws. It will take ages, because they have to do it in the Amyrlin's face. It will be all but impossible for them if Cadsuaine not only agrees with Egwene on the Hall, but doubles down on her positions. We see her POV state that on a few occasions with her when she sees how the Aes Sedai are handled by the Wise Ones, and actually agrees independently with what Egwene says, and we get hints that she might go further than Egwene did.

I could see her ordering all the Accepted declared ready to be raised be trained with the Wise Ones and Sea Folk for a decade before being raised. Just to be sure all the bad habits were expunged, so to speak. 

The Warder bond has a related aspect to Compulsion.

That is how Moiraine sent Lan off when his bond to her broke. Warders can resist the commands given in that manner, it is just that their minds will be broken, because the command will be followed. All Aes Sedai have that capability in their bonds. They do not like to use that aspect, because to them it is Compulsion.

Only Ashaman cannot be ordered that way. Basic immunity to Compulsion is a thing that saidin has, because of the steps it takes to embrace, and use it.

Saidar requires surrender, so they are vulnerable to Compulsion, like what happened in that scene with Elayne and Nyneave. There are Aes Sedai that comment on that weakness. 

Saidin requires struggle, and it is this that confers the basic immunity. No Ashaman would have been controlled in that fashion while holding saidin, and as a side effect, have the will power of the mind to resist Compulsion without it, because of their training.

Those are the basic rules of the One Power regarding Compulsion. 

Darshiva was in Rand's presence when he let slip his intentions to cleanse Saidin. It is possible that he went to get instructions, and report on what Rand said.

Given that we know he is Forsaken, and working for the Dark One under his direct command, the only conclusion is that he went to Shayol Ghul, told the Dark One what was said, and the Dark One acted with him. The renegade Ashaman were Darkfriends under Darshiva's direct command. He may have lost Rand's location until he was in Cairhein.

But, one things is it seems the Dark One did not tell Moridin afterwards. Moridin only found out what was intended when all the pieces were revealed when the Forsaken was in a meeting.

It was an action outside the leadership, which the Dark One could do.

You are correct Sabio that the Companion does not mention holding the One Power renders one immune to Compulsion. It is mentioned in the books.

Yes, however there is an indication that the Warder bond possesses an element of Compulsion.

On 9/1/2022 at 9:55 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

The Hall is 3 Sitters from each ajah = 21.  A quorum of 11 (>50%) is required for the Hall to sit.  If an Amyrlin is to be deposed neither she, nor the ajah she was raised from are informed, but all other ajahs must be represented by at least one Sitter.  The Greater consensus is required to depose her = the vote of every Sitter present.

 

Technically, Elaida met those conditions by persuading 11 Sitters from the other six ajahs to meet and depose Siuan.  There is a strong argument all 18 Sitters (the Blue alone excluded) should have met and in this case the motion would have failed, the greater consensus not being met.

 

The motion to depose her is controversial - she is as good as named as a Darkfriend - and once it's published Hammar and Coulin lead the warders from the blue and green to rescue her.  We're also told that Elaida didn't wait to see if The Blue Ajah would stand for Siuan and that every Blue sister who was in Tar Valon at the time either fled or was killed.  For supporters of Siuan from other ajahs that must have been abhorrent and represented a real danger - even if they towed the line they would be suspect and they could easily have been dragged into the fighting.  E.G. when Min returns to The Tower she sees three Aes Sedai together and knows they will all die on the same day, which turns out to be the day of the coup, and those three aren't all blue.

 

Once they have fled the way back is difficult and Elaida's behaviour is hardly conducive to reconciliation.  They of course procrastinate horribly until Siuan's ruse with Logain and Egwene's impetus.

There exists one other point, that the books point out. Because the Black Ajah were present in that quorum, and the bare minimum was present, it was an illegal vote, and one that was manipulated by Mesanna behind the curtains, so to speak. Later scenes show that. It also shows there existed no clear way of dealing with that issue of infiltration.

However, what Egwene did in taking the Three Oaths and retaking them, I actually wonder if the Hall will impose that step in critical votes in the future, on top of what Egwene insisted on.

That a full meeting of all Hall Sitters and Amyrlin  be present, even in debates of whether or not deposing an Amyrlin should be done.

There is a special edition???

and it is out???

On 9/3/2022 at 6:31 PM, Red Eagle said:

OK,

I'm interested in tracing the evolution of how the One Power being some kind of immunizing agent against Compulsion was incrementally revealed. 

 

Any idea where you came by the information that lead you to that conclusion, @wotfan4472?

Not trying to be anal and expect a Book/Chapter/Page. A brief mention of the scene/conversation would be fine. I'm willing to do the legwork myself. 

 

Thanks in advance 🙂

It is simply something I realised with a reread. I initially thought the same as you. The One Power does protect against Compulsion. However, Moghedien and Graendal are better in compulsion because of their training, and in Graendal's case, being a psychologist, and their tasks once they turned to the Shadow. Meaning, both of these characters have particular abilities and skills to bypass the protections that holding the One Power grants. Remember, no Aes Sedai knows Compulsion extensively, and even the Black Ajah are limited in their use of it.

Then, you add in Alanna literally stating that she tried to use her bond with Rand to compel him to obey her, and it did not work, whether or not he was holding saidin. Which brings in the second defence.

Strength of will can protect against compulsion.

Except, Moghedien knew of a way to bypass that defence that Graendal never used. She could manipulate the character to misplace that will to a different focus, like she did with Liandrin. This technique requires prior knowledge of the character beforehand, and something she would do easily, being the equivalent of an intelligence agent, or a professional spy.

As opposed to Graendal, whom simply destroyed the mind, like she did to that poor boy in The Gathering Storm.

Rahvin is equivalent to these two characters. His use of Compulsion follows the same logic, and so Morgase's moments show that mental defence I spoke about. It seems that Rahvin had no knowledge of how to defeat such a suspicious mind. The other two Forsaken however, knew how to.

It is not a plot hole.   

Moghedien was simply holding saidar and masking it before she entered the room, and the weaves she wove were not embracing the source, but channelling extremely powerful weaves of compulsion.

Levels of compulsion that were vast enough to ensnare Elayne and Nyneave both even if they held saidar themselves. The weaves were not distinct in that scene, because Elayne, and Nyneave especially, did not have the knowledge to understand what was being done to them.

It is the first example in the books of masked ability and detection of channelling actually being used by a masked wielder, in the presence of people that should see both the ability and the channelling.

Meh......I pre ordered that last week.

Anyway, there is no word, because it is not out yet, so no one else read it.

It does not matter with the length of time training.

In the Age Of Legends, it is sportsmanship, and nothing can change that mindset. If it was as equal as Lan's training, Demandred would have killed Lan in his duel, because he would not have been fooled by Lan. He would have duelled as a soldier on the battlefield.

That entire duel, in fact all his duels during the Last Battle all show that Demandred was duelling like he was in a sporting arena competing, just as LTT, Sammael and Be'lal would have, while Lan was fighting for survival as a soldier on the battlefield. 

I suspect that what Demandred displayed by his fighting is a display of Collapse Era duelling, where sports competitions like sword fighting was more and more vicious due to the Bore. Remember, Sammael was mentioned as a world champion; he may have gained that title in that period. That sportsman mindset is what killed Demandred.

Because it never occurred to him that Lan intended to kill him, not win the duel.

I actually like it, but only for Mat and Perrin. Not so much for Rand.

It explains Mat and Perrin's level ups, considering Lan spent more time training Rand than the others at the beginning, so the portal stone effect helps those two out. At least until their respective situations start to develop, like Mat with the Finn and his memories, and Perrin starting his very long training from Hopper. Those come much later, and as Lan himself stated, his skills are more sword focused than axe or bow and quarterstaff.

Rand being a blademaster is more due to Lan's training, than the portal stone effect, mostly because Lan comes from a part of the world that has been at war for 3000 years against the Shadowspawn, and is considered the top fighter of all of those warriors at the time the books take place. Many of Lan's pears even state it outright.

That training serves Rand much better, because his knowledge from LTT would only make him a contemporary of rivals like Sammael, Belal, or Demandred, and thus beatable, since all of them got the exact same training while taking part in a sport that featured the skills. Lan's training is far more extensive than LTT's training as a consequence.

21 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Because the Wise Ones said so.

Yes. They just did not realise that male Dreamwalkers that have Perrin's multi soul situation can actually enter talaranrhiod in the flesh without issue, or that it was even possible.

As for why the Wise Ones take issue, it is difficult to explain what they mean by losing their humanity.

It could mean doing that costs enjoyment, or loses the will to live in reality, like how a gentled man or stilled woman would be.

The Bore does not manifest in Telaranrhiod, except as a hole shaped wall while the seals were active, however, the Dark One could manipulate the reality and Telaranrhiod through the Bore because the seals were not totally perfectly in position. It was a slight gap.

By the end of the books during the Last Battle in Telaranrhiod, it was like a vacuum cleaner on full suction.

Ishamael is actually correct on the Bore, it was just the one place that allowed the Dark One to touch reality after Lanfear helped open it.

I think Jordan is a better POV writer than Martin. Martin does not change the character voice when different POV characters are at the same location at different parts of the story, unless he wants to point out a difference that he will use in a later plot.

With Jordan, you often entered the exact same location, and the character describes the exact same location totally differently. Like when the Wonder Girls entered the exact same Inn that Mat and Thom did in a number of books. The Wonder Girls noticed totally different things that Mat and Thom did.

One of those was the innkeeper, and the interactions each group had with him, as much as the inn itself. Obviously, Mat and Thom liked the inn and got good information they needed. The Wonder Girls did not, and so missed information, because the innkeeper was intimidate into not telling them. Which was about a seanchan enemy pursuing them.

On 8/3/2022 at 1:30 AM, aburuq said:

 

 

Also, what is with the level of loathing of Mat in books 6-7...like I get she finds him frustrating but what is with the over the top feeling that he is the worst thing in the world and would do anything to keep away from him and otherwise just hits him the first chance she gets? What is that about?

Her reaction to Mat in books 6 and 7 is because he saved her, Elayne and Egwene in Tear. It was a bruised ego.

Elayne and Egwene both have similar feelings, and in Egwene's case, it is much worse since Mat was attacked by Halima in Salidar when he first arrived.

I also remember reading there were two Aes Sedai that witnessed the Halima and Mat interaction in that moment: the two that Halima would later murder and one of whom Egwene ordered to investigate Moghedien's escape. 

On 8/1/2022 at 8:52 PM, Kalessin said:

In the between world, aka TAR, she struck up a companionship with Basil Brush. Boom Boom!!!

Now that you mention it, it was kind of a let down to have Noal ride in to save Olver as a Hero of The Horn, and not have him ride Bela at the time. 

For me, the answer is both. They reflect each other. Each book has more than the other, because of the focus of each.

The White Book is written like a book that you could find in world. It backs up certain information, and it is refuted in some cases in later books.  The Forsaken is a case in this regard. Each section on each individual is in some cases backed up and contradicted based on the entry, and certain figures, like Lanfear, actually do both. It is a basic factor of in world themes.

The Companion is a book that is written to expand the lore for readers, and also have information that did not happen, such as the Bela entry. One aspect I love is the Old Tongue dictionary aspect, especially the Forsaken name meanings. I love them, and their entire arcs in the books make sense when you read some of their names. In all cases, even their defeats fit them.

There are other occasions where a man must lead a circle besides one man and one woman.

A man leads when there are two men and one woman, and two men and two women. Then there is the last one, and the biggest piece of lore, which is a circle of 72 must have a man leading this circle, regardless of how many women there are in this circle.

It is this stipulation why the Light never used this circle in the Last Battle at Merrilor, yet Demandred did. It was this key ability that explains why the Shadow and the Dark One spent soo much effort in keeping the Taint in place after it was placed.

On 6/7/2022 at 11:04 AM, Nik said:

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I would say that when a soul goes into the "waiting room" where it waits until it gets spun out again, the bond is severed. It's possible that it even happens with heroes of the horn (their waiting room is TAR, but it's still a waiting room outside the real/waking world). But Birgitte was a special case because her soul didn't have to go into TAR because the heroes were currently in the waking world. (But then, will the bond break when the heroes go back to TAR? I can't imagine Elayne being perpetually bonded to someone who's not in the world anymore?)

 

The interesting thing is, Elayne states quite clearly in her POV that her bond with Brigitte was broken with her death. She already felt the effects, and they will be like Alanna's and Siuan's. I doubt she will react as Egwene did when her bond was severed.  Rand is a different case. He just went from one body to another of his own volition due to the nature of what lay beyond the Bore. He was not cut from his body in death like Brigitte was. Almost exactly like how Miro in Children Of The Mind jumped from his crippled body, to a healthy one due to being in a very similar nature in science fiction.

Rand also knows what sea water tastes like, because while he has never even been near the sea, Lews Therin did what I did as a kid and tasted it.

Where I am interested is if Lews Therin spoke of lambing during his time before the Strike At Shayol Ghul.

That Malkier origin trailer looks awesome!!!

Instant goose bumps!!!

On 6/23/2022 at 11:46 AM, Gypsum said:

Enjoying my reread. When Jordan isn't overdoing it with people's clothes, he's a powerful writer, and he sucks you into the trippiness of his world. I'm in the middle of The Shadow Rising and everyone has just been through Rhuidean.

 

Here's my question. One of Rand's Rhuidean visions or whatever went back to the Age of Legends. It looks technologically advanced -- they have things that could be cars, planes, firearms, etc. The Breaking of the World happens, which sends everyone back to the 16th century, socially, politically, technologically. Fair enough. All your male channelers have gone nuts and blown up the world. Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years? Aludra and Mat discover that gunpowder is useful for more than fireworks in the final books, but no one in the previous 3000 years worked that one out?

The answer is that the Dark One was still influencing the world, and that meant that Ishamael showed up in the Trolloc Wars and The War Of The Hundred Years to stop Humanity's development.

The seals did not completely cut the Dark One off from the world totally. He had minute access. The obvious clue to this, is the fact that Shadowspawn need the Dark One touching the world to exist, and the absolute limit is the equivalent of a molecular level touch on the word.

With the prison fully restored at the end of the series, the Shadowspawn all die, to be rebuilt the next cycle.

It happen with Perrin and Slayer during their final fight in A Memory Of Light.

That final moment triggered a flicker scene, because Shayol Ghul was a focal point for the other worlds once Rand entered the mountain, and it interacted with their abilities.