The Dark One by book 6 was touching the world directly. We heard Graendal state that the weather was caused by him directly. This happens before all the other things I typed about.

Before that book, it was indirect influence. After that point, however, it was direct. I never said Rand was a god. He was simply the Champion obeying the rules as instructed by the one he represented.

As opposed to the Dark One, that did not with Shaidar Haran's creation.  This is where Nakomi comes in. To both balance that aspect, and correct a possible shift in the web that Rand himself could not at that particular point in the story fix.

We saw that with the collaring, and that was a Shaidar Haran planned direct strike.

On 12/4/2022 at 12:26 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

These effects are the unravelling of threads of the pattern which is nothing less than the unravelling of  part of reality, the replacement of order and rules with chaos and, in effect, entropy,  as order turning to chaos implies the destruction of life - the pinnacle of complex organisation.

 

 

Which with this comment proves the Dark One was a being equal to the Creator. Because, all of those things I stated earlier, are not the cause of entropy and chaos. If they were, they would all be a symptom of the latter stages of their existence. None of that post shows that. I mean where is it possible for a man to have lava just come out of his head, or another man vomit insects to the point he becomes the equivalent of a floor rug?

If we look at Tar Valon, we are talking rooms made of stone that existed for 3000 years in the same spot since first being built, in one case abruptly being shifted to a totally new spot elsewhere in the building. As if they were built in that location instead.

If we were looking at a case of entropy and chaos, the room would be a pile of rubble instead, because even those obey the rules of reality; because it would be an example of time being used to age the room to that state faster than normal, which would be allowed by reality. With the room shift example, it is not doing so. 

The only example of entropy and chaos that is acceptable, is Leane's cell turning to wax in seconds. That is an example of what you are stating. The room shifting to a new location after 3000 years is a totally different aspect. In the case of the room shifting, it is the Dark One doing it directly, and also accelerating the physical state of Leane's cell in that instance.

Whichever way it is examined, it all comes back to the Dark One causing it all. After all, even Rand himself in book 14 stated that he is only doing the good things now through his taveren nature. The last bad thing his taveren nature caused was the two balcony collapses in The Gathering Storm. That there is entropy and chaos working.

Which meant that when Rand stated that, he meant the Dark One was doing the bad stuff from that point on.

I have a suspicion that Shaidar Haran had a hand in allowing all of that to accelerate. I mean, Moiraine at one point was surprised by how quickly those moments were developing before her fight with Lanfear. She even said outright that the seals should still be keeping the Dark One from touching that far.

On 11/29/2022 at 11:10 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

I always felt the idea of the Creator having a direct impact on the world didn't fit with the sense of the world. I have always seen the Dark Lord as being a being below that of a god, in a universe where you have the Finn and Mashadar you can believe there is a creature that exists that is not linked to a creator in anyway. My hope was in fact that Rand would discover in the last battle that there was no real creator, in fact I always hoped that Rand would kill the dark lord and then trap the being that Fain had become thus creating a new dark lord for the next turning and discovering that the "dark Lord" was in fact just a creation of the turning of the wheel. Alas that never happened. 

My other issue with the Creator impacting the world is that the one scene we have where he talks to Rand feels like a carbon copy of the same scenes in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. He has several conversations with the "creator" a being who can interact directly with his own world, but not with the world he travels to and they feel really similar to that scene. 

That is where you are wrong. The Dark One is not below the Creator, he is the equal being.

That is plain to see over the course of the books, and especially by the Last Battle, just on the effects on reality.

If he was not equal, there would be no prison, and no Bore, still less no effects on reality.

Things like insects womiting out of people, or people having lava pour out of their heads, or entire rooms moving about, and tapestries totally depicting different images would not be mentioned if he was a lesser form of being. 

It still goes back to the Creator acting as a last ditch attempt by the Wheel and the Pattern to stop certain events playing out that the Dark One wanted to happen.

That is a fantasy rule of world building; if a world has a Creator being and an opposite, and that opposite being breaks the rules of an encounter, the other has to also forgo abstaining to maintain the balance in existence to keep it going. It is a rarely explored aspect of deity beings in fantasy, since fantasy does not always explore it.

The only other title that explored it more than this was the Mallorean, exemplified when the Seeress Of Kell added Beldin to the group, because Zandramas added a Demon Lord to her group.

There is also one other title that explored it even less than Wheel Of Time, and that title was the Lord Of The Rings, exemplified when Gollum fell into Mount Doom. 

It is possible for the Wheel to spin out Rand's soul earlier, and it is possible that not all of those lives lived will be as the Creator's Champion facing the Dark One, just a person with that specific soul trying because of the prophecies. 

As for RJ's intentions, there are many religions and cultures that have this aspect that Nakomi shows.

Thanks for that. I knew someone would state the other side of the issues.

That would not work. The only female Forsaken that Demandred trusted for anything were Mesaana and Semirhage.

For that to work, one of them has be the one to do it, and before Nai blis becomes a thing.

Which means, either Egwene does not get her big moment with Mesaana on her way to earning her position as Amyrlin, or Rand does not get his moment with Semirhage, on his way to earning his Dragonmount moment in accepting his purpose.

Graendal would use those rebel Seanchan and turn on him, and Moghedien would probably lose control of them, as easily as Lanfear would. That still leaves Mesaana or Semirhage.

I agree with the issues.

It is just that whenever it comes out that Rand was born 1000 years earlier to the books, it always brings in Amalasan by default. Stonebow is a further connection whenever there is deeper research.

Add in Ishamael being out in the world at those exact times, in each case, it is a fascinating thought that the Wheel may have been actively trying to fix what was broken and getting it wrong each time.

On 11/24/2022 at 7:12 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I do wonder if BS took something he knew the fans where into and tried to shape it into something, then, realizing it hadn’t been as obvious as he thought it was took the chance years later to fix it. 
 

Or, maybe he is misremembering or changing his original thoughts to “fit in”

with the main theories. His interview last year where he insisted the dragon was born 1000 years later for the books makes me wonder if he had forgotten key parts of the books, I imagine when your writing as much fiction as he does, and no doubt reading other works, facts about books start to merge together. 

That information makes me wonder if Brandon meant that the false Dragon that Hawkwing battled, Guaire Amalasan, was in fact Rand's soul reborn then. The timing is correct if that is true, because Amalasan was precisely 1000 years previous to Rand's birth.

It is even more telling if Yurian Stonebow was also a rebirth for Rand's soul, and he was 1000 years before Amalasan, and exactly 1000 years after LTT himself.

Brandon may have exposed some info that we did not have before that in that interview. If true, then the fan theory of those two figures is correct.

On 11/11/2022 at 10:50 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I hate it 🙂

 

RJ's scene at Shayol Ghul has us wondering but BS writing a "backstory" that just confused things and had to be explained years later doesn't work for me.  It just leaves more questions: about the Jenn, about the Creator's ability to use an Avatar and influence the world himself - namely why doesn't he? - about the Aiel in the scheme of the turnings of the wheel.  It either should have been meshed in more fully so we could appreciate that we are only looking at one age in one turning of the wheel with glimpses of the previous age or left out entirely.

 

Also, is that RJ's explanation or BS extrapolating "from something found deep in the notes"?

 

 

Shaidar Haran is introduced in LoC and appears in numerous Forsaken povs in the series so we know exactly what he is and his purpose.  Nakomi seems a last minute idea that isn't developed at all.  I wonder if BS or even Team Jordan are trying to pin down an idea RJ only had floating around and ill-defined (hence the "backstory").

 

Isn't he still in his own body at that point?  IIRC He is carrying Moridin and the wound in his side is bleeding heavily, causing him to leave bloody footprints on the rocks of Shayol Ghul...

 

On balance I think Nakomi was an error on both writer's parts: we can have the body swap without her - we just need a bit more explanation of how Rand and Moridin crossing balefire streams in Shadar Logoth linked them physically; and Rand and indeed the whole world has trudged along without any involvement from or even any knowledge of the creator's avatar and her (still undefined) existence.

One major point in all this. Jordan stated in a book signing that Shaidar Haran was not introduced in Lord Of Chaos.

He says the Myrdraal  speaking to Rand in Barelon's Inn in the first book is actually Shaidar Haran. He then stated that the Myrdraal that threatened Caradin in Dragon Reborn was also Shaidar Haran.

My own personal theory is that Haran was the one that attacked them in daylight in Whitebridge, where Rand and Mat got separated from Thom.

18 hours ago, Dan Z. said:

I’m on book 12. I absolutely love this series. My only question is, why or how in 3000 years have they not made any technological advancements?

When you think about it, they pretty much did make technological advancements. The main reason they are not implicit by the time of the books, is because the Shadow took steps to cause calamities at certain points over those 3000 years.

The first calamity was the Trolloc Wars. That conflict lasted 300 years and left only Tar Valon intact as an entire society. Outside Tar Valon, only the Stone still remained. The consequence was that all the knowledge and steps taken to recover from the Breaking was lost in the process. The world recovered again and by Hawkwing's death, was shattered again by the Shadow causing the second calamity in the form of the Hundred Years War. When you add in the language changes over that time, it is not surprising there was no advancement. What technology we see in the books was preserved by those taking charge from the ashes of Hawkwing's empire. They all pretty much kept what worked, and nothing more. They only started developing over the books.

Indeed. On TV, the medium they exist in makes them all apples. The only difference is how each goes about telling their stories, and what they present.

Except, we saw Aviendha's Rhuidean vision. The issue is, Nakomi set her on the path to question that vision. Which, in turn led to the Aiel prophecy coming true in the good way with their inclusion in the Dragon's Peace.

Aviendha saw the bad way the Aiel prophecy came true. The key difference is that Nakomi was clearly present in one set of events, and not the other. The only Aiel that may have that fate if they do not have a Chief that survives, is the Shaido.

When you add in the ending of A Memory Of Light, with Rand's encounter with Nakomi, there exists only one conclusion to whom she is. Her motive was quite clear; that was to nudge Rand to the correct outcome with his negotiations, which we know also is not conditional on Nakomi's appearance. Because, at the same time, there was a far greater danger.

That danger, was Egwene and Rand coming to military blows at Merrilor, which required Moiranie's presence, and no one else, which would have been a repeat of Latra and LTT's clashes, just on a much more intense and dangerous outcome. The snakes and foxes themselves were clear on the stakes in that situation.

You could say the Wheel and the Pattern allowing  the encounter between Nakomi and Aviendha to happen is to handle a chain of development that the world would go through that had to be stopped. That kind of meeting would require the Creator to do something. Particularly if the events foreseen are to occur in a far later Age, and not the next one once the Dark One is resealed properly, and the Wheel had no way to alter that without the Creator's direct action.

That kind of problem would need the maker of the Wheel to take action, and it is very clear that those events that Rhuidean showed were the result of a recent development of an impending decision. Which was Rand's deal with the nations, and whether or not the Aiel were in it meant it was successful, or a failure. Moiraine made it very clear in Merrilor what outcome of the meeting the Pattern wanted, and it wanted the Aiel included in it. It also wanted the Seanchan in it as well, which is probably one of the reasons it had Mat marry the Empress, since he is a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn. 

On 11/13/2022 at 7:09 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

But Creator's Avatar =/= Creator's Champion.  Creator's Avatar is Jenn but Dragon / Dragon Reborn or whatever Creator's Champion is called in different turnings of the wheel is something and someone else.

 

The Dark One needs Shaidar Haran as an avatar because he is sealed in the bore and cannot touch the world directly until the seals weaken (and when they break he does not need the avatar at all).  What's the Creator's reason for needing an avatar? If he can use an avatar why does he need a champion? 

 

Nakomi just feels redundant to me.

Because of the rules of balance. If the Dark One takes that step, then the Wheel will expect the Creator to do the same. Also, if the timeline is correct, then when Nakomi appeared, Rand was going through all that stuff after Semirhage collared him.

This is a technicality, but the Light had no representative during that period. There is a reason that it is stated that the Dark One and the Creator used champions.

The easiest way is River Of Souls being used in the show. It would be good to have as a link up to when Demandred first appears. The main issue is where to show it. The show has two options. It either splits the events in River Of Souls by placing the Cleansing in the middle, or start the entire arc after that happens.

Perhaps the show can present the events as sections once the Age Of Legends prologues and epilogues are done.

It is too complex to change the Seanchan that much to fit in what happens. Another difficulty, is if the show even has him use a circle of 72, or not. If the show does use it, then the Seanchan is out as a possible threat, since they do not have access to male channellers, and their circles are limited to basically two people, due to the a'dam. The only way that could be done is if the damane did not exist in the show. Since they are present, then it has to mean the Sharans are there.

That leaves the Sharans as the only civilisation that has the number of channellers to pull off the damage that should be done, since they technically have access to both sides of the source, something that only Randland has access to by the time of the Last Battle besides Shara. 

Better yet, I think WoT would make a great video game series.

23 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I wonder if I take this as, she started as one, and became the other after she would have naturally died.
 

That is actually the only way to explain it. It also explains why the Dragon Reborn had to be descended from the Aiel.

The reason the Creator idea is the more popular is because Nakomi is absolutely signalling for many readers like myself that she was filling that position.  Tied to Nakomi is always the all caps voice that spoke in the first and final books.

Add in how Rand is speaking to her in that moment after leaving the Pit Of Doom and in Moridin's body to boot, it pretty much makes it clear that Nakomi was the Creator's balance for Shaidar Haran in that moment. No other figure in that moment would see Rand, and only Rand.

Everyone else would either see a Forsaken, or, and this is much more rarer, see Rand, but be tempered by the fact he is in a Forsaken's body. 

No, it is implicit in the fact that, like Shara, Seanchan was in a state of war from the Breaking onwards. The Seancahn general that helped Perrin rescue Faile from Malden herself even stated that they had nothing like the Aiel, or the gai'shain.

Da'covale is most likely a memory of a forgotten Forsaken enslaving the people in that territory at the time. Just as the helmets the Seanchan military wear are identical to those worn in the Age Of Legends battlefields, yet they do not remember the war, like the Randland nations remember stories of them, thanks to the gleemen.

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

It might be a tired tool, but the pattern forced him to the Waste.

Yes. The Pattern was going to force him to the Waste, and even warned him it would through the prophecy.

As for Rand himself, there exists the possibility that the Dark One informed the Forsaken on what the prophecies said.

Since Asmodean was with Graendal, I have no doubt that she told him of those prophecies.

The Black Cables were there from the very beginning of the Forsaken swearing to the Dark One. It is this connection that does quite a vast amount.

It is this connection that allowed such weird things as the air turning to fire in Rhuidean while Rand was fighting Asmodean in the real world.

It is also this connection that encourages the dreams of the Forsaken on to entire localised populations, like how Tear was while Be'lal was alive, and how the Illianers were under Sammael, and how Loial reacted both times. 

The protection from the taint is only one benefit. Another is that the Forsaken had a vast upgrade in power after the Black Cables were in place.

While it is correct that Mat is not dead, we have Rogosh Eagle Eye pretty much confirming that Mat is not a Hero, and he does not know why.

Parallel that with what Artur Hawkwing told Rand at Falme, and the intimation is clear.

I still think that Mat is not a Hero, because Jain earned it more.

Moiraine tried to use a prophecy to convince Rand to attack Illian.

The thing is, that prophecy refers to Rand revealing the Aiel history at Alcair Dal because of couladin, and the following battle with, and capture of, Asmodean at Rhuidean. 

It just never occurred to Moiraine that the prophecy referred all along at a teacher being needed for the Dragon Reborn, and he would be found in the Aiel Waste, not at Illian.

It was his first go through. There are no other indications that Jain is from a long linked Hero. His presence as a Hero may explain why Mat is not one, because it is entirely possible that Jain took the spot.

He did a ton to be chosen, after all; he revealed a Darkfriend to his people, set off a situation that actually aided the fight in helping to make Slayer, and sent warning of a situation that actually came close to exposing Ishamael too soon.

The Ogier at stedding Shangtai came pretty close to discovering that information, especially Elder Haman. He was suspicious of the Eye Of The World warning Jain gave when we see him, and pretty much surmised that a Forsaken was already out in that conversation.

On 9/22/2022 at 3:49 AM, WhiteVeils said:

It's clear in WOT they're trying to hint that it's a Future post apocalyptic Earth, so in some ways it needs to be even more creative...have that hint of modernity with their medieval.  Also, most of the people we've seen (save Suian in full regalia) are not the elites that GOT focus on. Those  'peasants' are the primary cast, and need to be distinct. GOT doesn't have many middle class folks.

GOT did have middle class folks, and poorer folks too. They were either killed while going about their days as villain fodder, or shock value back drop kills to show how grey the main cast were, and kept doing it throughout all 8 seasons. Even the active dead were treated like that.

From what I have scene HOD is doing the exact same things.

Which I did not appreciate, since I read WOT, and love the characters, which have all of that and more.

The first season of WOT did those folks much, much better, where to me, they felt like people going about their days, while hinting at the lives of the high class folks, as seen through Moiraine, Lan, which pretty much are high class, and the Aes Sedai Hall.

On 6/23/2022 at 3:02 PM, WhiteVeils said:

Great article on the score:

 

Shredding Musical and Fantasy Templates for ‘The Wheel of Time’ | IndieWire

I love the music to the show. It is so amazing, and feels like it is from the future. What do you think of it all?