4 hours ago, Katherine said:

 

I have read the books several times, but it has been about two years so everyone can correct me if I am wrong.... but combat was NOT EVER something that was taught to a novice or an Accepted. 

Is that true? I don't recall that being the case. Whether or not they are taught actual combat, they are certainly shown weaves that could be used in combat.

In Suian's first lesson to Nynaeve and Egwene she shows them how to make a dagger out of air and how to hold someone with air. We also know novices are shown how to make fire, maybe only for the purposes of lighting candles etc. still it wouldn't take much to extrapolate that into a fireball.

6 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Look just no what you are describing is just nonsense if she made other efforts to locate them the show would have had to show that she tried.

 

The 4 lost EFs where being actively hunted by fades and trollocs and she just made no effort to find them its terrible writing. If you cant accept that its a massive reduction in Moiraine as a character to have her let them go loose hunted by fades and trollocs with little to no understanding of the world around them I cant help you.

I've got along pretty well without your help so far. Thanks.

2 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Are you really suggesting that we see her at the Aes Sedai camp then see her ride into Tar Valon with the Aes Sedai and the cart carrying Logain, yet in that month she was really searching the countryside for the potential Dragons.

 

Please do not be that obtuse.

Well not out randomly searching the countryside, no, because that would be a waste of effort. Her most likely place to find them would be Tar Valon. Moiraine had the same basic trajectory as the others. From near Shadar Logoth to Tar Valon. Points they were likely to travel through are the same she was. Why do you think she wouldn't have asked questions in towns they went through or sent Lan on a few scouting missions to alternate routes that were logical?

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

It is indefensible that Moiraine made no effort to find them.

they where on foot she was mounted

she could have at least checked points they where likely to travel through  

ask questions in towns they might pass through

or search for tracks from there last known location. Though I suppose they only have Lan now who is shit at tracking, maybe super tracker Nynaeve could have thought it was a good idea to locate them even.

 

They where being actively pursued by the Dark Ones forces and she left them to fend for themselves while she took a leisurely ride to Tar Valon. No excuses it is just terrible. Where is the Moiraine that would see them dead before taken by the shadow. Just NO there is no defense for that crap. 

 

Valda did not care that Egwene could have attacked him with channeling she was obviously able to cast a fire ball he was just happy to believe that she would be unable to make it strong enough to kill him. How could he know that.

 

Loial looks terrible. Someone said he looks like the Burger King and they are right.

 

How do you know what she was doing on the months ride to Tar Valon?

This is probably the most disappointed I've ever been in a movie. I'm a massive fan of the cartoon and hadn't seen any reviews so I had no idea what I was heading into.

7 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Sorry this is not a bad movie, it is brilliantly made and does not take itself seriously. 

Yeah, I hesitated to put it up, but I was struggling to think of one and this came to mind. If a film is deliberately bad and achieves what it sets out to is it really bad? Or is it actually good?

7 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

The other thing I would add to this conversation is to highlight the fact that in the novels, we do meet characters who remember all of their multiple lives, and they are all consistently themselves and the same sex in each one. The Heroes of the Horn repeat the same roles in the same stories over and over again, and one of them is the Dragon. There is no confusion within the books. For those important enough to be Heroes, they are always the same gender, because it is always the same individual soul. And Artur confirms LTT is one of the HEroes, just not recalled because he's actually in the world.

Well yes, this is one of the breadcrumbs I was referring to in my post above yours. But nobody is disputing this is the way souls work in the books, just that it isn't really relevant to the story and very easy to change with almost no impact. Birgitte is the only hero who talks about her past lives and through her we learn a little of Gaidal's as well. I could launch into an argument about how Birgitte never says (I don't think) she was always born a woman, but I don't really need to so I'm happy to concede that she was, because... it doesn't change the story at all if in previous lives she was sometimes male.

7 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

In addition, the Aelfinn give Mat access to select memories from his past lives, and ever reference we get on the page is to a male past.

 

I'm saying the show isn't going to mess with this, but ultimately, I guess I just think this discussion is a mask / outgrowth of the "Who is the DR?" question, and a lot of that will be cleared up in relatively short order.

Nope, not his past lives. Memories from people who had previously traveled through the doorways. Mat does have some memories from other people before he goes through the doorway. But I'm not sure if it's made clear that these are from previous incarnations of his soul, or if they are inherited through his old blood.

I have a pretty high tolerance level for bad acting.

10 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Admittedly, I've only seen like 2 or 3 episodes of Shannara Chronicles. I believe I cut the cord around the time that show started airing. The FIL loved the show. I know I had a hard time getting past some of the actors "MTV" level of acting.

I enjoyed the first season, but it certainly wasn't high end TV. It's been so long since I'd read the books that I wouldn't have known what was changed. Season 2 was pretty rubbish though.

49 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

A thought occurred to me - what if Moiraine knows who the DR is, and she's just using the other EF5 as bait to make sure the DR does what they're supposed to do to protect their friends?

 

Would "explain" why she's not concerned about Mat.

Interesting, I think she certainly had a strong suspicion in the books. But wouldn't she have said so to Suian?

9 hours ago, templar7 said:

I began these books more than 25 years ago, and after at least 6 full rereads, consider myself a hardcore book fan. Having also had both personal and public converse with Robert Jordan himself, I'm confident he would love the show as much as I do. Is it perfect? No. but its pretty damn good!

Someone pointed out the other day the RJ said on his blog he would be happy with an adaptation something like Merlin. I think I only ever watched a few episodes of that show and don't remember much, but from what I do remember, if that's the bar he set he would be ecstatic with the this show.

3 hours ago, AdamA said:

Early season 2 reviews are coming in for The Witcher. 20/21 positive so far, 95% Tomatometer. Huge improvement over a first season where the consensus seemed to be it's fun if it's your thing, but the expo dumps were silly, timeline was confusing, and it introduced way too much world way too fast and confused non-book readers. Got that out of the way and seems to have its stride.

 

I think a similar trajectory is the best possible case here. Many fans don't seem to want to admit it, and maybe it's more that I didn't read these books until my 30s when all child-eyed wonder was gone from my brain and I'd been exposed to every trope out there from a thousand sources, but I always found Eye of the the World kind of hackneyed and generic and didn't get hooked until midway through Shadow Rising and on where it turned to a truly great series in my eyes. I went through a period of several years not even picking back up because the first two bored me so much, but I figured there had to be a reason it was such a giant in reputation and basically fantasy canon, so I kept going until it got good.

Interesting, I think I was 15 or 16 and Lord of the Rings was the only adult fantasy I'd read prior to Eye of the World. So for me EotW and WoT in general are kind of the base from which all the tropes originate. EotW is one of the my favourites because of the nostalgia it invokes when I read it, but I can certainly recognise it's genericness now. 

10 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

This comment tells me two things:

1) You and the OP aren't that dissimilar in your opinions

 

2) You're not taking into account the notion that the possibility of the Dragon Reborn being female just doesn't impact the mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is, but the nature of how their story unfolds. 

 

By establishing that they've made a change to the metaphysics of the WoT world in order to degender souls, Rafe and his team have in turn made it possible for themselves to establish that in some of the Dragon's past lives, they were female, which is something that Rafe has already all but confirmed is going to happen.

 

I've learned through spoilers that, in the books beyond Eye of the World, Rand starts seeing the former Dragon, Lews Therin, whom we know has been cast, but if a change isn't made and Rand ends up being the Dragon Reborn in the TV series, the nature of whatever he ends up learning from or being told by said vision is likely to be impacted by the fact that Lews Therin, as the Dragon, would have been female at some point in one of his previous lives.

With all due respect if you haven't read the books, you don't really have an understanding of how souls being gendered or not would effect how the story unfolds and I'm telling you it's pretty irrelevant.

There is scant evidence in the text of the books that souls are gendered, it's never stated explicitly and the few breadcrumbs that do exist would require very minor changes to fit the show lore.

Yes the DR gets memories and the voice of the former Dragon in his head. But LTT was male and there is no evidence that he or the current DR has any recollections of lives prior to that. There is zero information in the books or in anything RJ has said (that I'm aware of) about incarnations of the Dragon prior to LTT, they have no impact on the story as it's written. Dragons prior to LTT being female means nothing to the story as nobody has any idea who any of them were or what they did. Of course Rafe may choose to add that in, but even if he did, it wouldn't have to change much.

11 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

I wish I could get my hiking pack that small. But then I'm not prepared to sleep on the ground without a tent, mat and sleeping bag.?

1 minute ago, TheMountain said:

They're not exactly subtle with their numbers.

 

"Rumors of FOUR Ta'veren in the Two Rivers."

 

"It's one of the FOUR/FIVE of you."

 

"It has to be one of you FIVE."

 

"FIVE-headed dragon."

It's a waste of time debating this but... Where are you getting "FIVE-headed dragon" from?

The line in the show is many-headed and Suian asked why would the Wheel split one soul into many. No fives.

2 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

this has been my single biggest concern since some of the Early Rafe interviews on the show - particularly on the  degendering souls interview 

However
 

  Hide contents

there is a leak that popped up a couple of hours ago that gives me hope that they are abandoning the female dragon / multiheaded dragon stuff

 

Abandoning? They never intended to have a different Dragon.

Funny, cause I always pictured Elayne as closer to blonde and Avhienda as a deeper red. Head cannons be head cannons I guess.

I don't really care who has what hair colour in the show though. Even less important is the natural hair colour of the actor.

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

And Rosamund Pikes hair isn't naturally Black/Dark Brown.

Elayne isn't a "strawberry Blonde" Her hair has individual strands of Red & Gold.
If she was a Strawberry Blonde, RJ would have just said she was a Strawberry Blonde... For all Intents and purposes, she's a Ginger with blonde highlights.

What's the source for the individual strands of red and gold? It's always described as red-gold as far as I can recall, not red and gold. Just curious as I never pictured it that way.

5 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Information we've received in the scene: 

1. Moiraine says that she can't see the men's weaves.

Correct

5 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

2. A green reacts to Logain's weave as if she can see it. 

This can be one or both of two things.

1. Kerene sensed something breaking the shield and acted on instinct.

2. The stabby things Logain created were visible physical artifacts that even a non channeler would be able to see.

8 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

3. Logain reacts to Nynaeve and makes a comment, "like a blazing sun" at the same moment that Nynaeve's weaves are throwing off massive amounts of light. 

I mean you answered this for yourself. Nynaeve's weaves were throwing off massive amounts of visible light.

Exact verbiage people, words are important!

It may seem like semantics, but Aes Sedai do not take an oath not to "lie" or "deceive", nor do they take an oath to not "kill" or "hurt" with the one power.

"To speak no word that is not true"

"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends..."

Those are the words that are binding. How those oaths bind an Aes Sedai is determined by how the individual interprets them. How someone else perceives what they say or do is of no consequence, unless the Aes Sedai herself believes they are.

Here's an example lifted from something that happens in New Spring.

An Aes Sedai can use weaves of air to trap someone, if they don't believe any harm will come to them from said trapping. Someone else however can then shoot that person with an arrow and kill them while they are trapped. This exact scenario happens to Moiraine and she thinks it is skirting very close to breaking the 3rd oath.

If Moiraine knew before hand someone was going to shoot the guy, or her intention was to get someone to shoot the guy after he was trapped. The 3rd oath would have prevented her from using the exact same weaves on the exact same guy.

I'd also like to point out the fact we are even arguing about this stuff means the show is getting it right. This has Wheel of Time written all over it.

2 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Just more examples of lazy writing and confusing. Smart writing would be something like "prior to her saving my warder's life, I had never seen her channel"... that would be a truth that all the viewers could nod their heads to and know there was more that she wasnt saying. But this whole scene was just lazy writing.  "Where have I been the last two years?" "I have been searching for someone special to bring back to the tower, and ta-da, I brought two, Nynaeve and Egwene".

 

 But the writers just want you to swallow it and dont think about it or ask any questions... just take what we give you and be happy!

I agree that this scene wasn't the best. I said so in my thoughts on the episode. I think Suian and Moiraine should have been able to dance their way out of that pretty easily without needing to give Moiraine penance. But Moiraine didn't break the 1st oath and I don't believe wording things in a way that makes the viewer think she might have is lazy writing. I think it's clever and is very Wheel of Time.

1 minute ago, Chivalry said:

I'd like to see a bit more competence from the male protagonists, but these are all solid points. 

Fair enough and I'm sure it's coming. I'd argue the men (the Two Rivers men at least) hadn't done anything in the book up to this point that was very impressive. They had certainly done plenty of stupid stuff. Mouthing off about Trolloc's to strangers, baiting Whitecloaks, sneaking off in Shadar Logoth, climbing and then falling off palace walls.

6 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

One thing RJ did very well in the books is allow both male and female characters to shine (and both behaved foolishly, depending on circumstances). Women often "mirrored" men in achievements, and vice versa (Rand learns to travel, female AS travel, Egwene masters TAR, Perrin masters the wolf dream, etc.). Sometimes it became predicable and overly repetitive (even boring), but I appreciated that RJ seemed to be driving home the lesson that men and women needed to take a collaborative role in the battle, or the Dark One wins.

Agree and a theory I've had since before the show even started was that they were going to lean heavily into female power early on as a way of demonstrating the importance of balance. Rafe has talked balance being one of the key themes, I think we'll see it.

There are examples of women being "diminished"  and men being awesome if we want to be as ridiculous as some of the other examples.

Nynaeve's backstory is rougher in the show than it is in the books.

Moiraine gets wounded by a Trolloc and nearly dies. (imagine if that was Lan, the outcry about the nerfing would be never ending)

I'd argue Egwene mopes just as much as Rand about their relationship.

Dana reveals herself unnecessarily, just because Rand didn't want to kiss her. (not a main character I know, but is an example of a woman not being very smart)

Rand doesn't piss himself and run when the Trolloc breaks in and instead fights back (he runs in the book)

Perrin also fights bravely (pretty sure he didn't kill a Trolloc on Winternight in the book)

Mat doesn't bat an eyelid before going out looking for his sisters

10 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Sarah Nakamura confirmed on twitter that in the show women can't sense the ability in other women unless the other women are actively embracing saidar. Maybe Moiraine twisted the truth around that since Nynaeve had never emraced saidar in a situation where Moiraine could have sensed it? 

 

Edit. Moiraine said something like "I was unaware she(Nyn) can/could channel". Is that the same if she had said "I didn't know she can/could channel"? Can those mean different things?

If this is the case, that they can't sense other woman if they aren't holding the power, then it's really easy to explain why Moiraine didn't speak a word that wasn't true.

1. There is no scene in the show where Moiraine is told Nynaeve can listen to the wind. Like I've said previously, it's reasonable to assume she was told, but we don't know that 100%.

2. Even if someone did tell her (whether it was Nynaeve herself or someone else), that doesn't mean Moiraine has to fully believed it. It's common for Wisdom's to claim they can (or possibly even think they can), whether or not it's true. If Moiraine didn't witness her doing it, then she doesn't know for a fact she can.

3. Moiraine says "I was unaware she could channel" and then "I was unaware that she could channel". If Moirane hasn't seen Nynaeve channel for herself or sensed the ability in her, those statements can be true. "I was aware she claimed to be able to listen to the wind" isn't the same as "I was aware she could channel"

Remember Moiraine only has to convince herself she isn't speaking an untrue word. Not anybody else.