Semirhage is a Big CryBaby!!

[Kesiera_Sedai]

When is the last time YOU had a spanking? Rereading Book 12, and just finished the Chapter where Cadsuane gave Semirhage a good old-fashioned spanking. I always said Cadsuane was someone's mean grandma....Also makes me think the good/evil questions aside, Cadsuane was able to break Semi because she understood how she thought...Like Semi, she uses her reputation to see people and make them bow to her wishes.

[dexterryu]

Not answering the first question... :)

 

As for Cadsuane and Semi, it was another character coming to terms with the fact that the Forsaken were just people and not immortal gods.

 

It's an interesting discussion of instinct vs technical skill. You would think the Forsaken would be more easily defeated by the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends and LTT compared to the "untrained children" that the Forsaken refer Rand and the Aes Sedai of the time that the main story takes place. 

 

Rand and company know the one power and pretty much have their knowledge of it forged in battle. Comparitively, while the Forsaken in many cases had hundreds of years of experience the War of Power was basically 10 years according to the big white book. So open battle with the one power was a relatively new thing. Most of the experience with the one power prior to that was to do quality of life things... they were incredible at healing, traveling, making tools (ter'angreal), weather control, etc. But fighting with it was new to them.

 

Really the only fight that doesn't set right with me is the Demandred sword fights. According to Sammeal, swords were adapted from a sport. So even if Demandred was really good at the sport he probably wouldn't be as good as Gawyn, Galad, or Lan so for him to defeat them in pure sword duels doesn't add up. Particularly Lan who'd been trained since the cradle (even though Lan wins, he had to do so via sacrifice and toughness and not skill).

[Sabio]

Dem was described of the best of his time.  Who knows how much practice he had.  You could be talking decades,

 

BS said Gawyn wasn't as good as he thought he was.   Gawyn was a good but not a great swordsman.

 

Also remember from Lan's POV, he had been fighting all day.  So Dem had the edge, from Lan's pov he thought it might be different had he been rested. 

 

I don't think Rand's forces had the edge in battle with the power.  Think of before Rand became the dragon how little the one power had been used in a fight.  Men had no knowledge, for Aes Sedai it was mostly for capturing men who could channel. Wise Ones didn't take part in fights.  Look at the fight at the Wells.  it was mostly fire and lightning, until Taim arrived.  The seanchean were better prepared for fighting but what we have seen is a lot of ground exploding, lightning, fireballs.  Taim's knowledge mostly came from Dem.  Yes it was just 10 years but it was a soild 10 years of nothing but war.

 

Also I don't think the Forsaken would be easier to defeat then an Aes Sedai.  They still had a lot more knowledge about channeling then Aes Sedai.  The Forsaken biggest weakness was to assume they knew everything and the Aes Sedai were children.  They assumed they knew all so there was very little effort to discover new things.    Anything new discovered they assumed it was a fluke.  The Forsaken biggest mistakes were beliving their own hype so they underestimated their opponents.  Their second mistake was no trust among each other, so there was very little attempt to help each other.  All had their separate schemes going so they would never run to each other's aid if needed.

[wheeloftimetv]

The sword fights felt like a fanboy moment on Sandersons behalf. Everyone's always wanted to know who was the best with the sword, and oh look they all just conviently line up to fight duels during the freaking last battle...

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Dem was described of the best of his time. Who knows how much practice he had. You could be talking decades,

 

BS said Gawyn wasn't as good as he thought he was. Gawyn was a good but not a great swordsman.

 

Also remember from Lan's POV, he had been fighting all day. So Dem had the edge, from Lan's pov he thought it might be different had he been rested.

 

I don't think Rand's forces had the edge in battle with the power. Think of before Rand became the dragon how little the one power had been used in a fight. Men had no knowledge, for Aes Sedai it was mostly for capturing men who could channel. Wise Ones didn't take part in fights. Look at the fight at the Wells. it was mostly fire and lightning, until Taim arrived. The seanchean were better prepared for fighting but what we have seen is a lot of ground exploding, lightning, fireballs. Taim's knowledge mostly came from Dem. Yes it was just 10 years but it was a soild 10 years of nothing but war.

 

Also I don't think the Forsaken would be easier to defeat then an Aes Sedai. They still had a lot more knowledge about channeling then Aes Sedai. The Forsaken biggest weakness was to assume they knew everything and the Aes Sedai were children. They assumed they knew all so there was very little effort to discover new things. Anything new discovered they assumed it was a fluke. The Forsaken biggest mistakes were beliving their own hype so they underestimated their opponents. Their second mistake was no trust among each other, so there was very little attempt to help each other. All had their separate schemes going so they would never run to each other's aid if needed.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Yes...I think Egwene said something to this effect to Mesaana during The Big Staredown...That the AoL had never known war or violence until the Bore was opened and that they were softies, so to speak, though I'm sure the time she spent holding Moghedien captive may drastically deflated her opinion of the Forsaken... On the other hand though, Rand/Lews seemed to be VERY knowledgeable about fighting with the OP, spinning 6 Deathgates while shooting lasers from his fingertips (KoD) when the Trollocs attack....My favorite OP battle of the series,....

[Sabio]

it also varies from people from the AOL I would guess.  Some of the characters such as LTT, Sam, Dem were battle leaders.  Other's such as Semi, Lanfear, Moghi weren't.   It's likely some the forsaken never took part in battles.  For me the biggest point to remember is besides the seanchean and the Aes Sedai trying to capture men who could channel, using the power in battle before Rand was unheard of.  So it not like many of the channelers in Rand's time had a lot of experience with using the power in a war.

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

"some of the forsaken such as LTT..."

SERIOUSLY???? WHAT??? TOO MUCH WHISKEY DURING CHRISTMAS???

[wotfan4472]

Hahaha jack of shadows... I happen to agree with sabio. Just not with that bit of LTT ;). Not all the Forsaken were skilled in battle. Mesaana was not, since she did not fight, while Asmodean was a soldier as opposed to Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael or Demandred. Still not sure about Ishammael's battle skill. He still hid did not seem to be a leader that could command the rest.

[wotfan4472]

Semirhage just was not used to how Cadsuaine treated her. She was used to being hated and feared by all that had direct contact with her as much as the stories told of her actions. Unlike some other Forsaken, those stories are accurate to her accomplishments during the War of Power and the Collapse. She is not someone you would want to put your life or trust in. Especially if she decided she wanted to have some fun. We all know her idea of entertainment. All those things gave her the attitude she had, which made it an interesting look at Cadsuaine herself. The spanking was a way cool scene that took down a dangerous threat's idea of self worth. A vast difference between the two characters, much like Nyneave and Moghedien . It makes me wonder what Sereille Bagand would have done in Cadsuaine's position. Now that would have been a thing to read.

[jack of shadows]

@wotfan4472,

i agree with sabio too lol,but you cannot write a post about the forsaken

abilities(or lack thereof) in battle and bring lews therin as your first example to

prove your point.

[mb]

Not answering the first question... :)

I think she was asking Semirhage.

 

 

I recall a past thread discussing the breaking of Semirhage.

not sure, but I seem to recall the defeat of Demandred being discussed somewhere.

 

about Forsaken skill in battle; Egwene tells Mesaana that much of Mesaana's life was spent in peace.  I imagine Egwene would have told the same to the other remaining Forsaken had she met them.

 

about the Forsaken assuming the other characters as children; I would guess they did not have much experience with children.  if they did have much experience, they would know that children in general could be difficult to deal with.

though in the early books, at least some of them seem to understand that.  In the later books, they seem to forget that.

[wotfan4472]

@wotfan4472,

i agree with sabio too lol,but you cannot write a post about the forsaken

abilities(or lack thereof) in battle and bring lews therin as your first example to

prove your point.

 

Agreed completely. Demandred was a perfect example of someone that matched LTT in battle, and the only one of them that faired good.

[szilard]

1. Why do you read fanfictions? You can only blame yourself...

2. According to theories there were many, many Dreadlords. Even more than a million (not a typo). So we cannot measure them based on what we see from the latest branch/survivors. 

[wotfan4472]

True on that point. There were also other Forsaken than the ones we know.