OK so who killed this guy?

[Guest Samuel Storch]

Ok, i just got every single book on audible. over 400 hours of pure bliss. BUT i forget what book Ozmodian died but it never says WHO killed him.  it was like "YOU!!! OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" and thats it.

[DojoToad]

Grandael, I believe.

[szilard]

Don't listen to DojoToad, there isn't any character called Grandael in WOT.

 

A hint: it's a fact that Verin is Mat's daughter. So...

[jack of shadows]

Oh come on szilard,there isn't any character called ozmodian in wot either,

Dojo toad was right when he said that

Grandael killed ozmodian.

[szilard]

Oh come on szilard,there isn't any character called ozmodian in wot either,

 

OP's Illianer accent is particularly strong!

[szilard]

Ofc, DT got it right, but I think this mystery should still be open-ended.

[Finnssss22]

Ok, i just got every single book on audible. over 400 hours of pure bliss. BUT i forget what book Ozmodian died but it never says WHO killed him.  it was like "YOU!!! OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" and thats it.

 

It is revealed twice.

Once near the end of Towers of Midnight by what Shaidar Haran says to her but you have to do a little math and some process of elimination.

 

 

ToM Epilogue:

"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence."

"I had nothing to do with Mesaana's fall!"

"Nothing? Graendal, the dreamspike was there."

 

Doing a little math and knowing who died by whom. Graendal was a part of Aran'gar's death by leaving her/him to be destroyed by Rand and she is being blamed for Mesaana's fall.

So who is the 3rd she's being blamed for?

We know who killed/how every other dead Chosen had met their fate except for Asmodean.

We know that Graendal had nothing to do with the deaths of the ones we do know so...that just leaves Asmodean.

 

And just in case you missed that, it flat out states under her entry in the Glossary that she killed Asmo. 

[szilard]

And just in case you missed that, it flat out states under her entry in the Glossary that she killed Asmo.

 

It's a personal offence. RJ guarded the killer's identity with his life, and an idiot (goaded by a very loud on-line minority) thought that it would be good to share this info.

 

This decision was worse than immoral, it was a mistake

 

Disgusting.

[Sabio]

Come on it didn't apear in any glossary or anything until TOM.  That's a long time, by then many had figured it out anyway.  RJ didn't really guard it, he kept saying stuff like if you read the books it's obivious who did it, which it wasn't, but he seemed to refuse to admit it wasn't as clear as he thought it was.  You could figure it out anyway through process of elimination.  There was a really great post and link on this site some time ago showing how Graendel was the killer.  So it's not like RJ didn't want people to know, he just wanted people to figure it out.  But I think after 17 years there not much harm in putting it in the glossary, especially after Shaidar Haran hinted to it in the book.

[flinn]

Come on it didn't apear in any glossary or anything until TOM.  That's a long time, by then many had figured it out anyway.  RJ didn't really guard it, he kept saying stuff like if you read the books it's obivious who did it, which it wasn't, but he seemed to refuse to admit it wasn't as clear as he thought it was.  You could figure it out anywau through process of elimination.  There was a really great post and link on this site some time ago showing how Graendel was the killer.  So it's not like RJ didn't want people to know, he just wanted people to figure it out.  But I think after 17 years there not much harm in putting it in the glossary, especially after Shaidar Haran hinted to it in the book.

Without patting myself on the back too much, I was a poster on WoTmania who laid out, how it could not have been anyone else, right after the book came out. I didn't have many of those moments, but that was definitely one of them. Seemed pretty obvious to me.

[Sabio]

When laying it out it made sense, I never thought it was as obivious as RJ made it seem.  I would say by book 7 the clues were there.

[Orderofolde]

Come on it didn't apear in any glossary or anything until TOM.  That's a long time, by then many had figured it out anyway.  RJ didn't really guard it, he kept saying stuff like if you read the books it's obivious who did it, which it wasn't, but he seemed to refuse to admit it wasn't as clear as he thought it was.  You could figure it out anyway through process of elimination.  There was a really great post and link on this site some time ago showing how Graendel was the killer.  So it's not like RJ didn't want people to know, he just wanted people to figure it out.  But I think after 17 years there not much harm in putting it in the glossary, especially after Shaidar Haran hinted to it in the book.

What threw people was that RJ was telling people that aside from it being "intuitively obvious" it was both the MANNER in which he died and WHERE he died that prevented the DO from bringing Asmo back.  The only theory back when it was hotly debated that made sense was that he walked into the room looking for some wine and happened to step through an open gateway and got balefired or maybe stepped into the world of dreams through a gateway already open in the room and was undone.  Later we see this is entirely plausible as Graendal uses these gateways often to TAR.  We also see that yes, G could have been the one due to her looting Sammael's room of goodies in Illian, however there are many holes.  She wouldn't have been gating into a storeroom unless she was going to pose as a servant to get up to Rhavin's room which would require her to use a mask of mirrors weave as well as a weave to hide her ability to channel.  And since there were female channelers as well as Rand who would have gone all goose-bump armed if she had hidden her ability but still channeled, she would have had to have prepared an inverted balefire weave ahead of time to not alert everyone, which isn't likely.  A shield, perhaps.  Compulsion, likely.  It was her favorite.  Balefire?  In the off chance she ran into Rand?  I can't even remember if the Forsaken were under orders not to kill him at this point.  

 

As surprised as Asmo was, she had to have been equally surprised, unless we are to believe she used her favorite weave of compulsion to zap him and make him have a sudden wine craving and to come open the door to the storeroom she was in...all channelers had a problem with using the power on things out of sight, and a mental block even at a distance, which could be overcome.  The truth of the matter is that RJ killed him off leaving it vague as a mystery and was surprised that it turned into such a debate, and so he basked in his cleverness and gave us reasons why Asmo couldn't come back.  I believe that we found such mystery in his death probably because we thought some new player or new villain was about to be revealed or some new machination was to be unveiled, or that it was an important in some manner.  After all, Asmo could still channel a trickle of the power, more as time progressed, and a whip of thin spirit could slice any weave.  He might have been conceited, and a fool all about his music and evil, but he was brilliant and could have defended himself.  After all he saw what was coming and cried out "Nooooo!" and guys can't see weaves of Saidar, inverted or otherwise.  What is intuitively obvious is that he was killed, saw it coming, and knew his attacker, so no MOM, no inversion, which leaves us with a big mystery.  Could Graendal have done it?  Yes.  But in a palace full of channelers of both Saidin and Saidar, the how and why was never fulfilled for us and our minds crave the how and why which makes it still a big mystery, if not the who now, the how and where.    

[Sabio]

Which is the main reason people assumed a female had to do it.  A quick burst of the female half wouldn't of been noticed by anyone.  With Avi, the wise ones there, a small use of the female half wouldn't of trigged any alarm if detected.  Rand would only of felt it had he been near.  Avi for instance wouldn't start walking about asking every wise one if they just channeled.  But only Asmo and Rand were male channelrs there, so a male channeling could of immedietly of alerted Rand if sensed.  She would of been more prepared then he was, after all she was going into enemy area, so she would of been prepared to cast quickly if needed.  Asmo on the other hand, just wandering about feeling pretty safe and happy that Lanfear and Rhavin were no more, while also trying not think about the balefire marks he saw on the wall.  So he was pretty distracted and wouldn't of been ready.  When the door opened she was probably ready to kill whoever was opening it.  Also wondered if she killed him sort of how the Gholam died, maybe opened a gate under him and left him falling into nothingness.  Could explain why the DO couldn't get his soul.  However he died we know it was fast.

 

Couldn't of been balefire since that would stop the DO getting your soul, but RJ said how and where.  So if you got balefired really wouldn't matter where you died, you aren't coming back.

 

Main question is if you die in the world of dreams while in the flesh, does that hamper the DO finding your soul? 

[Orderofolde]

We have two views on the topic of dying while in TAR.  One from Hopper, the other from Lanfear.  Hopper told Perrin to die in the Dream was to be no more ever again, while Lanfear tells Perrin that he thinks that to die there in the flesh would mean they would die a final death but she tells him that isn't so.  This occurred when they were at the Black Tower, when Perrin finds the two Ashaman guards in the shack guarding the spike.  Perrin feared killing them would have adverse effects, but Lanfear was casual and mocking him his choice to put them to sleep instead.  Of course, when do the Forsaken ever tell the truth?  Then again Hopper did come back tied to the horn as a big white Shadow Brother killer super wolf, so who knows?  

[Orderofolde]

After coming to terms with Graendal being the culprit who offed Asmo, my thought process to a logical conclusion were that Graendal was in TAR scouting the palace after the battle before she went there in reality, opened the gateway into a little-used storeroom to ease out and to make her way through the palace to see if anyone had looted Rhavin's room or if anyone was in it,  just as Asmo opened the door and probably walked right through her gateway.  (RJ repeatedly pointed out the dangers of an opening gateway, especially in the proximity of others.  I would think he got sliced in half, saw her step out and realize what happened before he fell apart and tumbled into the gateway to TAR, but I can't think of the mechanics that would allow that.)  She then struck at Asmodean seizing upon the opportunity or a knee-jerk reaction of self-defense.  Her having actually planned his death is giving our bumbling Forsaken (plural) too much credit.  I am having trouble thinking of anything they actually got right, at least for longer than a few minutes (Semi collaring Rand, Messy's tower attack in TAR getting foiled, so on and so forth).  Graendal later is responsible for the death of one of the Gar's, also in the heat of a moment which lends it more plausibility.  The only one aside from Moridin later on that actually directly accomplished anything of note was Demandred getting Shara under his control, getting his own Sa'angreal and Semi did destroy Rand's hand, but that was kind of in the prophecy, so I don't give it much in the way of credit.

 

I do like the thought on the gateway opening up beneath him into the dark emptiness that the Ways and Skimming take people, how the Gholam was removed.  It isn't a quick death, however.  So Balefire being a very powerful weave that would have raised eyebrows, and it having adverse effects of erasing a person from the pattern, combined with it being both how and where he died both being equal as to why he wasn't brought back, it probably wasn't death by balefire.  We didn't have any hints of anything Asmo did being undone afterwards, and not a messy death, as a bunch of blood in the palace storeroom not hit by the balefire earlier would have certainly been a curiosity that was reported to Rand and Co., that leaves us having to get creative.  So maybe something like he walks in through her gateway and she stops his heart?  I'll have to look at what other nasty things Graendal used aside from compulsion.  That seemed to be her go-to weave.  Graendal was all about her mood-shifting gowns and her pleasures.  Maybe the reason the DO couldn't bring him back was that he really wasn't dead, but that the "death taking him" bit was more literary wordplay in that Graendal made him a thrall?  I just don't know, it is all guesswork and conjecture at this point.  If she was going to skulk around she would have been wearing a MOM and Asmo wouldn't have recognized her unless she hadn't donned one just yet which leans more towards her opening a gateway into the room and not stepping out just yet.  If you ask me, stepping into a room and suddenly finding yourself in TAR would certainly be a shock, add in a Forsaken right there equally surprised, she would have naturally lashed out with something, so...

[jack of shadows]

@orderofolde,

"we have two views on the topic of dying while in TAR".

rand warned perrin about this too:"take care perrin.if you die in that place

while in the flesh,it can have...ramifications.what you face could be worse

than death itself,particularly now,at this time".

[Sabio]

We saw at the LB she is a pretty crafty fighter. I still sort of suspect she skimmed there and he stumbled in on her skimming platform.  Since the skimming seems to not be part of the world of dreams, with the darkness below seems to sort of be outside of time.  Hence why you can get to a destination faster then walking there.  .  Rand killed Rhavin in the flesh while in the world of dreams using balefire, alot of it.  The one part that I still question about that part is when the DO was speaking to Dem he said "Rhavin dead in his pride.  He served well, yet even I cannot save him from balefire.  Even I cannot step outside of time."  No mention of Rhavin dying in the world of dreams.  So at least according to that TAR didn't seem to matter.  Unless that's a mistake by RJ.  I think the cannot step outside of time part is key, So maybe if you are killed on a skimming platform and then left there or the platform is dissolved, you are outside of time.

 

I wouldn't say the forsaken were bumbling, though always said the plan to lure Rand to tear seemed needlessly complicated.  The forsaken biggest flaw was they believed their own hype.  They bought into all the they were superior and everyone of this age were poorly trained children.  So they were over always overconfident.  Plus as we saw in the book, when it came time to Rand, they kept thinking of him as LTT, not as Rand.  So they kept being surprised by the things he would do.  They thought they were gods, but they were normal humans with flaws who were powerful channelers. 

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Which is the main reason people assumed a female had to do it. A quick burst of the female half wouldn't of been noticed by anyone. With Avi, the wise ones there, a small use of the female half wouldn't of trigged any alarm if detected. Rand would only of felt it had he been near. Avi for instance wouldn't start walking about asking every wise one if they just channeled. But only Asmo and Rand were male channelrs there, so a male channeling could of immedietly of alerted Rand if sensed. She would of been more prepared then he was, after all she was going into enemy area, so she would of been prepared to cast quickly if needed. Asmo on the other hand, just wandering about feeling pretty safe and happy that Lanfear and Rhavin were no more, while also trying not think about the balefire marks he saw on the wall. So he was pretty distracted and wouldn't of been ready. When the door opened she was probably ready to kill whoever was opening it. Also wondered if she killed him sort of how the Gholam died, maybe opened a gate under him and left him falling into nothingness. Could explain why the DO couldn't get his soul. However he died we know it was fast.

 

Couldn't of been balefire since that would stop the DO getting your soul, but RJ said how and where. So if you got balefired really wouldn't matter where you died, you aren't coming back.

 

Main question is if you die in the world of dreams while in the flesh, does that hamper the DO finding your soul?

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Guessing from deduction, I would say that is true since in one in of the books Hopper the wolf tells Perrin that dying in TAR is permanent.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

We saw at the LB she is a pretty crafty fighter. I still sort of suspect she skimmed there and he stumbled in on her skimming platform. Since the skimming seems to not be part of the world of dreams, with the darkness below seems to sort of be outside of time. Hence why you can get to a destination faster then walking there. . Rand killed Rhavin in the flesh while in the world of dreams using balefire, alot of it. The one part that I still question about that part is when the DO was speaking to Dem he said "Rhavin dead in his pride. He served well, yet even I cannot save him from balefire. Even I cannot step outside of time." No mention of Rhavin dying in the world of dreams. So at least according to that TAR didn't seem to matter. Unless that's a mistake by RJ. I think the cannot step outside of time part is key, So maybe if you are killed on a skimming platform and then left there or the platform is dissolved, you are outside of time.

 

I wouldn't say the forsaken were bumbling, though always said the plan to lure Rand to tear seemed needlessly complicated. The forsaken biggest flaw was they believed their own hype. They bought into all the they were superior and everyone of this age were poorly trained children. So they were over always overconfident. Plus as we saw in the book, when it came time to Rand, they kept thinking of him as LTT, not as Rand. So they kept being surprised by the things he would do. They thought they were gods, but they were normal humans with flaws who were powerful channelers.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I agree..with the exceptions of Graendal and Moghedien, they all underestimated the Third Age channelers. However, it was explained be Brandon Sanderson that according to RJ's notes that the reason the DO cannot restore someone who was balefired is because their soul passed an instant before they died (balefire works in reverse), so the DO would have to go back in time to get your soul, which is impossible even for him.

[Orderofolde]

I suppose in that view, of stumbling through a gateway to skimming would work.  Skimming and the Ways seemed to be related in some way to the vacuoles also mentioned in the series.  Maybe the ways pass through several, so that is why bridges are gone or crumble, as vacuoles break away from the pattern this seems to be a good comparison to pieces of the ways vanishing.  Maybe the black wind eats away at whatever bonds were formed to hold them in place, represented by the pock-marked paths and bridge works.  The skimming void does make sense in that it too is outside of time.  We have POV's from the forsaken that describe them and how dangerous they were, but also observations that the greatest works of their time were done in vacuoles.  Nice catch on the DO's words, about not stepping outside of time.  The whole who dunnit is confusing.  We finally get told who, but we're left to reason out the how and why and where.   

[Graendals favourite]

Bloody hell, that's not the scene, Asmodean never enterered the room.

[Sabio]

All we know is "he pulled open a small the door, intending to find the pantry, took one step and stopped., the blood draining from his face.  You, no.  The  word still hung in the air as death took him."  So he did take one step into the room.  The one step had to of taken him somewhere for the where he died to come into play.

[Graendals favourite]

if you pull open a door, one step doesn't take you into a room though. You can try, and find you're still, however long the step, in the space you came from.