Irene Gallo, what's the next step?

[szilard]

Four years ago, we were presented with news that "The Wheel of Time to Be Re-Released With New Art". You stated back then:

 

"you are absolutely correct in that we want these to invite new readers to series. (As well as give fans more options.)"

"I wont defend the asethic to anyone that doesn’t care for it. I’ll just state that an ebook cover and print cover have very similar-but-slightly -different roles to play. We tried to accommodate room for more copy, in case we need to add quotes and taglines that can live on the a web-page for the ebook edition. I also think that the larger image space works really well on the smaller sizes that ebooks are displayed at, but, can look a bit horsey on a physical book."

"That’s exactly what we are hoping for — that some readers will enjoy the Sweet covers on the mass market books, while others are attracted to the new ones. We will certainly continue to publish the mass/Sweet editions."

Fans told you that TOR should re-release the series with the e-book covers (and you should replace the weak ones too) but nobody cared about their reaction. Now, it is clear that the new edition is a huge failure. Is there any chance that TOR will release new paperback, or mass-market paperback, or hardcover editions with the e-book covers which cover the full front covers?

[szilard]

Darrell Sweet (2005)

 

He also explained that Tor frequently asks him to make changes to the art to suit the needs of the cover layout. For example, he was asked to make the figure of Perrin on the cover of Knife of Dreams shorter. As you can see by looking at the cover, if Perrin was the proper height, the text would cover part of his head.

You know Irene, things like that cause heart attacks. This attitude is so unproffessional...

 

(Our heroes look deformed, their bodies are so badly proportioned on every cover...)

 

Anyway, our book club has a few suggestions (see them below), and while I don't agree with them on every point, I think this could be a starting point.

 

 

1. Remove Jordan's name from the last books. He has nothing to do with them, plus you will have your desired spaces for quotes.

 

2. These are excellent:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/uploads/1282861877/gallery_2_2_58319.jpg

 

(except his nose - dominates the picture)

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/uploads/1282861877/gallery_2_2_186991.jpg

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/uploads/1282861877/gallery_2_2_89404.jpeg

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/uploads/1282861877/gallery_2_2_150663.jpg

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/uploads/1282861877/gallery_2_2_520437.jpg

 

All the rest need a lot of improvement.

 

 

3. A shorter book cannot be wider (spine) than a longer one. We get it, readers cannot get the impression that they are reading a shorter book (for the same price), but they are not stupid, they see the increasement in the size of the letters, the amount of space between lines etc.

 

The size of US paperback of tEotW is good (for the whole series), but you should increase the inner margin by 2-3 mms, and the outer margin could get a little more room too.

 

4. Use the same paper for all the books. (Including covers!)

 

5. There is a little program called Adobe InDesign. It has gazillion settings and options. But, if you just put the text of books into InDesign without any fanfare, the end result will be more successful than what we have now. And you can tweak the **** out of it.

 

Use the same size letters for all the text. This is very bad typography:

 

 

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

 

6. Do not follow the terrible layout/size/font/font size of the new UK editions.

 

 

 

To sum up, you should listen to the fans (forums, polls, emails, tweets, whatever), their opinion is invaluable; you should do market reasearch, and maybe start with a little limited edition (1000-1500 copies): mmpb with the e-covers, redesigned typography.

 

We would like to see that TOR cares about the series a little bit, you know?

 

 

Thanks.

 

[szilard]

Irene, as you can see (hundreds of comments in this thread alone), the fandom really cares about this topic.

 

A friendess of mine has a few suggestions too:
 

I. I love the classic USA mass market paperback editions. My hands are even small for a woman, so this is my favourite size. Do not change anything!
II. Yes, the front covers, the spines, the titles are all mismatched but that's what I like when I'm looking at the bookshelves.

counterexample: http://i.imgur.com/8myFSVC.jpg This is really boring.

If TOR wants a mid-tier book, I recommend the UK edition of Gone with the Wind (2014), or Anna Karenina by Oxford World's Classic (2016). It's not a shame contact them, asking for their help. Page-setting is not a simple task.

Maybe there will be an OWC edition of the Wheel of Time. That would be fantastic!

 

 

[Sabio]

TOR caees about the series as long as there is money to be made.  Sadly to me if they make the books with new covers it just seems like a money grab, like when they started breaking each book into smaller books.  Seemed to me just another way to sell the same book.

[szilard]

TOR caees about the series as long as there is money to be made.  Sadly to me if they make the books with new covers it just seems like a money grab, like when they started breaking each book into smaller books.  Seemed to me just another way to sell the same book.

 

Oh, they are amateurs: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Rad_der_Zeit#Liste_der_Romane

 

(Not to mention the Japanese editions... https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%99%82%E3%81%AE%E8%BB%8A%E8%BC%AA#.E4.BD.9C.E5.93.81.E3.83.AA.E3.82.B9.E3.83.88)

 

But they should really correct the bad typography at least. Is this a big demand?

 

 

Would you buy a new edition (I mean with new covers etc)?

[Sabio]

No, but that's just me.  If I own the book, I wouldn't buy it again simply for a new cover.

[jack of shadows]

it's not just you,i wouldn't buy crossroads of twilight again even with a new cover

depicting elayne,min,aviendha and rand together in bed naked,why would anyone want 

to buy this unreadable piece of garbage again for a new cover?

[szilard]

it's not just you,i wouldn't buy crossroads of twilight again even with a new cover

depicting elayne,min,aviendha and rand together in bed naked,why would anyone want 

to buy this unreadable piece of garbage again for a new cover?

 

Hmm, povs by MAT, EG, ALVIARIN, Yukiri, Samitsu, Hanlon?

 

 

But I'm not talking about only new covers, new typography etc. Where are the video games, board games, puzzles, posters, affordable jewelry, clothing?

 

They could build a clothing empire based on the books...

[Werthead]

But I'm not talking about only new covers, new typography etc. Where are the video games, board games, puzzles, posters, affordable jewelry, clothing?

 

The rights to all of these got sewn up by Red Eagle. Until we found out what happened to the rest of Red Eagle's merchandising rights - whether they're still with them, got transferred to the TV company in the still-unannounced deal or reverted to the Estate - remains to be seen.

 

The video game deal was particularly awful. Red Eagle contracted Obsidian, one of the best CRPG makers in the business, to do a WoT video game and got Chris Avellone, the best RPG writer in the business bar none, to write the script. He went off and read all of the novels and was waiting to get started. Red Eagle then went to Electronic Arts to make a distribution deal and seem to have screwed it up. Going by industry standards, EA would have wanted the main profit share, automatic sequel publication rights and some creative oversight in return for providing promotion, getting the game on shelves, doing advertising and so on. Red Eagle walked off instead with a simple distribution deal and nothing else, most notably, no funding agreement. Making a good Wheel of Time video game would cost $50 million minimum (Skyrim was around $80 million, for comparison's sake) and Red Eagle did not have that kind of money. Turning it down from EA in the hope it would materialise from somewhere else so Red Eagle could retain creative control was insane.

[DemandredFO]

Unless there's several movies, I sincerely doubt there will be new covers because they'll lose alot of money. Like someone said, there are books no one would buy. I myself haven't relistened to all the books in a while because what the books really need is an editor.

[szilard]

 

But I'm not talking about only new covers, new typography etc. Where are the video games, board games, puzzles, posters, affordable jewelry, clothing?

 

The rights to all of these got sewn up by Red Eagle. Until we found out what happened to the rest of Red Eagle's merchandising rights - whether they're still with them, got transferred to the TV company in the still-unannounced deal or reverted to the Estate - remains to be seen.

 

They've sold everything to them without time limit? That cannot be!

 

 

Unless there's several movies, I sincerely doubt there will be new covers because they'll lose alot of money. Like someone said, there are books no one would buy.

 

Aha. They sell thousands of copies of COT every year in the USA... And a few thousand copies in the UK too...

 

 

Look, would anyone die, if they put up 6-7 PDFs (4-5 pages long) onto dragonmount.com with different typography? )The typography in tFOH is atrocius, and very bad (ill-fitting, alien, too modern) in TDR. Why cannot they correct these volumes?)

 

 

TOR sells min. 35-40000 copies of tEOTW (excluding ebooks) in every year, so don't tell me that they cannot afford new covers.

 

The paperbacks cost basically nothing (think about it: their price is 5-6 dollars, and TOR has a profit, booksellers have profit etc). Publishers only spend $3.50 to print and distribute a hardcover ($35)!

 

 

Wouldn't it be good if they could publish a limited run with new covers, new typography (hey, maybe they could use left aligned text instead of justified), with rough edges (deckle edges), with proper margin (see the older edition of UK pb)?

[Sabio]

MAybe it would of made sense at the height of WOT's popularity, but with the popularity declining with the end of the series, it just doesn't make sense to put the books out again unless they really want to try one last money grab.  But only the true die hard fans are going to spend the money to buy new books because of the covers.  Also what happens if the covers actually turned out to be worse?

 

Tower's of Midnight paperback has a price of $9..99 US on it, $11.99 Canada.

[szilard]

Sabio,

 

 B&N just published a new hardcover edition of tEotW. They are not charity, they want money, and according to them there is a market.

 

The Wheel of Time, Boxed Set I, Books 1-3: The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, The Dragon Reborn Mass Market Paperback – Box set   Buy New $15.46 

 

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #5,093 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)     

 

#387 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic

 

One could buy the whole series (books by RJ) for less than $70. UK is pricier.

 

Don't tell me that WoT is not popular. I don't know the other books/authors by TOR where are on that list, but from a 26 yo series this result is very good. And there are huge spikes (even #3,200) many times a year.

 

Anybody could produce a TOR top 10-20 list? I'm really curious.

 

 

The new ebook covers are done, the typography just needs a normal dude/tte, who has minimal brains, and they can produce a new mmpb edition in less than a week.

 

They could print 1500-2000 copies for $1500-$2000.  Or even less.

[Werthead]

They've sold everything to them without time limit? That cannot be!

 

No, the limit would be the same as the film rights. The complication is that Red Eagle did get the comics made (if badly) and did get a video game deal underway (even if unfulfilled). Until we know how the Estate got the film and TV rights back from Red Eagle, or if they even have, we can't say what's happened to the rights for the other stuff.

 

Look, would anyone die, if they put up 6-7 PDFs (4-5 pages long) onto dragonmount.com with different typography? )The typography in tFOH is atrocius, and very bad (ill-fitting, alien, too modern) in TDR. Why cannot they correct these volumes?)

 

That would require the type to be completely reset, which is - despite advancements in technology - still very expensive and a bit of a nightmare. They reset the type for A Game of Thrones in the UK a few years ago and it cost HarperCollins a fortune. They could only justify it because sales had shot through the roof and the type looked awful compared to the other books.

 

Wheel of Time they could probably justify it, but unless there's a strong reason (people are still buying the books regardless) they probably won't bother.

[szilard]

That would require the type to be completely reset, which is - despite advancements in technology - still very expensive and a bit of a nightmare. They reset the type for A Game of Thrones in the UK a few years ago and it cost HarperCollins a fortune. 

 

Interesting.

 

I could only say that: a Hungarian studio which produces quality typography would redo tEotW (1373000 characters) for 50000 Hungarian Ft ($172).  Just saying.

 

Of course, Hungarian publishers print hardcover books 'almost every time', even for 500-1000 copies. And the price is low.

 

I went to a printery yesterday. Their offer looks like this:

 

size: slightly bigger than the US mmpb

cover: hardcover

dustjacket: good looking dj, not a glossy one

sewn binding

excellent paper

 

The price of a copy is 475 HUF (ordering 20000 copies)

 

And many Hungarian publisher uses printeries in Asia, because the Hungarian prices are too high...

[szilard]

We cannot run out of ideas!

The colour which encompasses the map is black (on the endpaper, US-pb). This colour gives an ominous feeling to the books. You could say, hey, it is almost invisible! - during reading, yes, but even a slim line is able to assign a particular atmosphere.

Also, you should place the TOR logo from the left page to the right page.

[szilard]

[by courtesy of bing.com]

 

[–]IreneGalloAMA Tor.com 9 points 3 years ago

The main issue is to realize that artists are professionals. You;re paying them to be a creative partner so give them the space and respect to be just that.

An average cover will run 3,500.00 for Tor. (For the art, not design and printing.) As a self published author you can probably get away with a fair amount less but you should consider this a real investment.

Whenever artist ask me this I tell them to be very clear about what expect throughout the process. How many sketches they will see. How many revisions they can ask for. Fees for further revisions. Kill fees. What rights are being transferred. (At Tor, we typically only buy cover rights -- we can’t sell t-shirts or posters with the art unless we go back purchase those rights. We do not own the original painting, if there is one.)

Most authors have little to know experience working with artists so it’s best for both parties to be clear and upfront with everything. And have both parties protected by a contract.

You should get loose sketches (three is common) that gets the main idea of the cover across. From there you can make the most amount of changes. Once you have settled on the idea, you can get a more refined final sketch that will solidify the details. A few tweaks here and there are common but hopefully nothing structurally needs to change. Then they paint!

But remember no two people will envision something exactly the same way. And that's OK.

Then you need a designer. A good deisger can make or break a cover. Expect to pay another 1-1,500.00. Again, a good designer will often give me about three options and a round of revisions.

Can you do it for a lot cheaper? Yes. But again, you are buying professionalism, ability, and experience. You have to think about how important that is in relation to what you want out of the project and what your individual circumstances are.

 

 

Could anybody link good-looking covers by TOR?

[szilard]

triple

[szilard]

 

Animus.Tesseract, could you design a cover like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/84/56/0c8456ef47afa13fb8e71c4b9e5430b9.jpg

 

or this: http://www.ikkadukka.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/e/m/emma.jpg

 

 

30th Anniversary edition?

[szilard]

double post

[JenniferL]

Since Irene is unlikely to respond and this thread is now just you talking to yourself, let's put it away. If Irene ever decides to respond, she can contact me and I'll unlock it for you.