Tarmon Gaidon [Advanced Mafia] Game Over

[Hellian]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Running the thread is classic scum play. Easy to hide behind false content.With that said, it's only day 1, so I'm still watching player interactions.Why do you call scum wolves?

 

So what are your thoughts on me?

Still waiting on an answer to this.

You don't have a job?

Zander and I were both dominating the opening phase of the game. You could have argued that either of us were trying to "run the thread".She should have some sort of opinion on my slot at that point, if she's ready to drop a serious vote on Zander for this reason.Can't beat an answer out of her all day.Wolf who thinks its safe to blow off a player she perceives as lynch bait, or just a really apathetic villager?

Actually while you both have high post counts, I see more content in your posts than spam. ATM I am reading you as hyperactive townie.

 

And yet - 

 

 

 

[v]Shad[/v]

 

I will not address any further idiotic suspicion on my slot.  I"m going to state my reads and you can all piss off.

 

See, Hellion, for the record this is something I policy lynch.

In my view (and I can explain why if you want) self voting is never a pro town move.

That isn't to say that townies don't do it because I'm sure we've all seen it before but as a tactic it is never advantageous for a town player to do this and, imo, it needs to be answered with a policy lynch to discourage others from doing it in the future for whatever reason.

 

 

If anyone needs further justification to vote Shad let me throw this out there for you, this is either a gross attempt at AtE or game throwing if Shad is Town.

Take your pick but either way he needs to be lynched at the end of this day as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed.  I have seen it as a mod-killable offense.  On day-1 without any heat it's a bit lame.   If you are going to self-vote, you should at least tell everyone to go eat a bag of d**** first.

 

This seems strange progression. If you agreed why didn't you vote?

If it was a game rule not to self vote, it would be in the op no?

Why are you leaning so hard on a Shad lynch? He seems to have made joke reveals as scum and then his self vote? If he were scum wouldn't that be a bit over the top behavior?

[Zander?]

@Hellian

 

You know were voting you and not Shad right?

[Hellian]

I feel I've stuck up for Shad a decent amount this game and I don't like it. But he's been one of the main contributors to the game and it seems like a lot of nitpicking. I really hope I'm not wrong.

If this is a fake wolf post its a good one, should be regarded as objectively townie

 Another couple of posts that I am going to keep in mind! 

 

 

I think I'll answer both of these together because the majority of the "defensiveness" I saw was statements of "you're wrong." 

 

 

Hmm. Reread pages 12-15 and Shad comes out of it looking pretty defensive. At first Nolder was looking hypocritical because he was FOSing Shad for acting without explaining himself, but refused to explain himself either. But when I asked, Nol immediately explained. Whereas Shad refused to give substantive reasoning and kept falling back to insults. This post in particular pinged me: 

 

 

You're freaking out because Zander's telling you I'm a wolf and you trust his ability to read me.

 

Zander's never read me correctly out the gate in any game ever.

 

I'll humor you later if I have the time, but I'm not particularly interested in defending myself at the moment.

Not interested in defending himself but spent his last like six posts on just that.

Finally got to looking at this.

 

The only post in that whole sequence that was remotely defensive was the first one, that I made at you, where I immediately posted again calling myself out on it.

 

You wouldn't be the first person to interpret my bluntness as defensiveness, as bewildering as that is to me.  But I need you to talk me through your thought process more here.  You pulled a post where I was responding to Cass's request that I go back through early Cass and Zander posts and pull out individual quotes that I liked.  Do you feel that my response to this is applicable to my conversation with Nolder?

 

It's easy to pull an out of context quote where I say I'm not interested in defending myself [by doing tedious work that I find unnecessary] and point to some other posts and mislabel them as defensive and say I'm contradicting myself and that's wolfy, but it's never going to catch scum > rand of the time.  Talk me through your thought process when you made this connection.

OK maybe I just see insults as defensiveness. It's a holdover from following politics. I read a lot of you calling Nolder things like ridiculous, which to me reads "I don't want to answer you." 

 

 

 

I understand you don't have to post a WoT every time someone challenges you, but for the three pages I read all I saw was "you're wrong" and no "this is why."

Show me these things.

 

Posts like this: 

 

 

 

If you are a villager and have any interest in winning this game you will answer me.

 

 

 

 

It's not clear to me. Could you give us a bit more detail on your reasoning?

He's laughing off Zander's concern instead of addressing it head on. Much like what he's doing with me right now.

 

He appears to be caught and doesn't know what to do.

 

I asked you three times to explain your point and you refused to, then told Iron I'm laughing you off instead of addressing you head on.

 

 

 

ugh

 

Nolder's probably a villager.

 

Reference massive thread derailment in Nightmare Before Christmas to see what I'm talking about.  If I get into this with him it will be a never ending cycle of him refusing to talk to me because of some imaginary slight on my end.

 

Moving on.

This one seems out of place in my response but I included it because after this I saw a pattern of trying to shut down the disagreement without resolving it. 

 

 

 

I gave my answer and I am confident others will come to the same conclusion I did regarding your posts.

I'm not going to get sucked into an endless debate about what you really meant.

You gave your answer to Iron afterwards. You consistently refused to answer me. You're ridiculous.

 

 

 

I'm more amused than annoyed by this, but I'm putting you on ignore for a while for the rest of the thread's sake.

 

 

Alright. As a villager, it's my job to find other villagers and wolves. When a player is willing to share their thoughts and engage the game and maintain a dialogue with me, I talk to them and try to figure them out. When a player is closed and resistant and refuses to communicate, it's my job to beat a read out of them. I could choose to get frustrated with Nolder's refusal to talk to me and just OMGUS vote him out of annoyance, similar to his method of lynching players based on policy rather than read, or I could accept that he's not going to freely offer information and just drop him into my null pile and eventually lynch him by POE, or I can dig into him and provoke him and force him to react to me so that I can actually generate something to read him by and improve my chances of winning a game.

 As a wolf, it's my job to look like I'm a villager. The things you are taking as defensive here are the exact opposite.  They're aggressive and confrontational.  (and extremely unrelated to my comments at Cass that you'd pulled into the mix)  You think that it's out of place for me to resolve on a town read, but if you're a villager it's because you fail to grasp what I'm doing in the first place.  If I wanted to fight for the sake of fighting with a predetermined conclusion that I'm going to call whoever I'm talking to the bad guy, I would go hang out in the debate forum or watch Fox News or something.  I'm interested in people's alignments.

 @Shad: So I am going to assume that you are referring to the pink salmon [i know its your FAVORITE COLOR ] in you little WoT here??   

 

 

 

Actually while you both have high post counts, I see more content in your posts than spam. ATM I am reading you as hyperactive townie.

I suppose that's fair.Zander's a villager. I have a lot of experience playing with him and a great track record reading him and I would be very very surprised if he was anything else in this game.It will help me a lot towards reading you if you spread out more and express your thoughts on the whole player base instead of just focusing on him.

Don't you find it odd that he accuses me of ignoring questions that are referencing another player?

 @Hellian: I don't get this question at all??  

 

 

 

Believer, you've been extremely disengaged so far.

 

What's up with that?

I wouldn't say "extremely".

 

Coupled with RL things and my general dislike of D1 shenanigans, I'd say that my level of participation has been quite normal.

 

Expect me to be fully present from D2 forward.

These were all your read-related posts that I could find:

 

 

 

Hey all, innocent child reporting in.

 

[v]Ironeyes[/v]

 

 

Da freak? Believer hasn't unvoted? Dude, it's WAY past time to leave a joke vote there. I need to move him down the list.

Why do you assume it's a joke vote?

 

Why do you think it's past time?

This is not a majority lynch game, no votes until 1 hour before deadline actually matter.

 

 

I will change my vote though, after I've caught up, unless that person improves or you do something scummy.

 

Meh, I was going to vote John Snow but now I kind of like Ironeyes again.

 

Bothers me slightly that I'm voting with John though, meh.

 

 

Consider me engaged, anyone here to talk to?

 

Meh.

 

[unvote]

 

[v]John Snow[/v]

 

 

Not trying to be confrontational but why?

I assume you're talking to me.

 

I don't like his opening.

 

 

Meh. Maybe your IC game set a standard that you're going to have a hard time living down, but you were more engaged early in Star Fox even if it paled to Disney.

 

I suppose there's only 14 players here though.

 

I guess that having seen what you're capable of as a villager I have fairly high expectations, but it also tells me you're not going to just be frozen as a wolf. You're a player who knows what he's doing.

 I certainly haven't seen anything to make me want to lynch you today, was hoping to have a decent read on you early though.

 This conversation is very interesting.  It is between two of the craftier players, which makes it more interesting.  >.>  <.<  anyway Just saying. Oh and this is my last page.  I was supposed to have 4 pages but my 3rd page got messed up during formatting :angry:

 

WS, if you go back to Zanders post, the question he had bolded was to Hallia.

[Katiora]

 

Kat can be a D1 villager.

 

 

I'm planning on being a villager EVERY day... that I live :| however long that may be... 

[Believer]

 

Kat can be a D1 villager.

 

I'm planning on being a villager EVERY day... that I live :| however long that may be...

 

So the days after you die you wont be a villager?

[Katiora]

 

 

Kat can be a D1 villager.

 

I'm planning on being a villager EVERY day... that I live :| however long that may be...

 

So the days after you die you wont be a villager?

Actually thinking about it in this game I will!!! I forget I can still talk to you guys in TAR!!! Man this is a weird game lol

[Ironeyes]

True that

[Zander?]

What happened to Pral???

[BFG]

D1 Votecount

 

 

 

Shad (2): Dice, Nolder

 

Ironeyes (1): Snow

 

Snow (3): Ironeyes, Hallia, Believer

 

Hellian (1): Zass

 

Zass (1): Hellian

 

Not Voting (6): Darthe, Katiora, Pralaya, Shad_, Tiinker, Wildfire Sedai

 

 

No change :)

 

You have just over 24 hours to choose between the stedding and Tel'Aran'Rhiod

[Cass]

 

Sorry, spoiler fail plus just lost quotes. 

Basically - Why so confident in Zander at that point/what posts of his pushed him above null?

The entire thread, he's been the exact same to last game.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't you find it odd that he accuses me of ignoring questions that are referencing another player?

I don't because I know him.

 

 

This is Zander.

 

It might literally be Zander and not just a metaphor.

 

He's going to misread things and overreact because he's flying through the game at a mile a minute, but if you engage him directly and talk him through it town!Zander will recognize he misread something if he did and continually readjust. He might still tunnel you to oblivion, but he'll have reasons that make sense in his head.

 

Scum!Zander can replicate the outward appearance of his paranoia and tunnel vision, but if you take him to task on it you'll see it's a facade. He'll overplay the dumb card and pretend to not understand you. He'll ignore points that conflict with his argument. He'll raise new issues that contradict his original stated concerns.  I'm not seeing any of it.  But he's easiest to communicate with one on one in real time, where you can directly convey your points to him.  In his catch-ups he's too distracted worrying about 12 other people.

 

 

Prolly one of the most accurate posts about me Ive seen.

 

Shad does read me VERY WELL.

 

My concern here is that tho Shad does read me very well as Town!Shad he will still have some posts the he wavers a bit on.  And he posts them so you can see him working through the read.  Even after hes stated hes very sure on me.  And a Town read D1 is common place from Shad on me, it still takes a little bit for it to come.

 

Look at Overwatch for an example.

 

Here he's just like he's Town and thats it.

 

I mean ive seen ShadGOAT before but this feels different to me.

 

Couple that with a few other things and its very unsettling.

 

Now Shad's activity level tends to be higher as Town but I know Shad's good enough to be able to post heavy as Scum.

 

He made some really good posts and some bad ones.

 

His AtE blow up self vote tho I just have a really hard time seeing come from Scum!Shad tho.

 

 

 

 

 

I feel I've stuck up for Shad a decent amount this game and I don't like it. But he's been one of the main contributors to the game and it seems like a lot of nitpicking. I really hope I'm not wrong.

If this is a fake wolf post its a good one, should be regarded as objectively townie

 

 

Another couple of posts that I am going to keep in mind!

 

 

Why? What are you thinking? 

 

I think I like WiFi. I can't understand where she's going with things, but nearly everything she's said I can see where she's coming from. She basically feels agendaless and that feels good here. Am I being naive? 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, spoiler fail plus just lost quotes. 

Basically - Why so confident in Zander at that point/what posts of his pushed him above null?

The entire thread, he's been the exact same to last game.

 

The bold's what's important, and I agree. This was actually @Shad, because of ?possible early TMI read and basically:

 

 

Shad does read me VERY WELL.

 

My concern here is that tho Shad does read me very well as Town!Shad he will still have some posts the he wavers a bit on.  And he posts them so you can see him working through the read.  Even after hes stated hes very sure on me.  And a Town read D1 is common place from Shad on me, it still takes a little bit for it to come.

 

Look at Overwatch for an example.

 

Here he's just like he's Town and thats it.

 

I mean ive seen ShadGOAT before but this feels different to me.

 

Couple that with a few other things and its very unsettling.

 

Now Shad's activity level tends to be higher as Town but I know Shad's good enough to be able to post heavy as Scum.

 

He made some really good posts and some bad ones.

 

His AtE blow up self vote tho I just have a really hard time seeing come from Scum!Shad tho.

 

 

 

 

 

/snip

 

If it was a game rule not to self vote, it would be in the op no?

Why are you leaning so hard on a Shad lynch? He seems to have made joke reveals as scum and then his self vote? If he were scum wouldn't that be a bit over the top behavior?

 

 

Why agree with Nolder then? I don't understand how you got from A to B.

Don't confuse me tunneling on Shad with pushing for his lynch. I've outlined my concerns and I'm waiting on responses. There's a very big difference at this point. 

 

As for OTT behaviour with the scum claim in RVS and the self-vote later - who knows, I see ways it could be possible for him as either alignment. Can't rule it either way on generalisation. 

[Wildfire Sedai]

 

 

 

 

*snipped*

 

Actually while you both have high post counts, I see more content in your posts than spam. ATM I am reading you as hyperactive townie.

I suppose that's fair.Zander's a villager. I have a lot of experience playing with him and a great track record reading him and I would be very very surprised if he was anything else in this game.It will help me a lot towards reading you if you spread out more and express your thoughts on the whole player base instead of just focusing on him.

Don't you find it odd that he accuses me of ignoring questions that are referencing another player?

 @Hellian: I don't get this question at all??  

 

WF, if you go back to Zanders post, the question he had bolded was to Hallia.

 

 

FTFY  

 

The pink salmon is the question I was referring to.

[Katiora]

What happened to Pral???

Kinda wondering this myself... 

[Hellian]

 

 

 

 

 

 

*snipped* 

 

Actually while you both have high post counts, I see more content in your posts than spam. ATM I am reading you as hyperactive townie.

I suppose that's fair.Zander's a villager. I have a lot of experience playing with him and a great track record reading him and I would be very very surprised if he was anything else in this game.It will help me a lot towards reading you if you spread out more and express your thoughts on the whole player base instead of just focusing on him.

Don't you find it odd that he accuses me of ignoring questions that are referencing another player?

 @Hellian: I don't get this question at all??  

 

WF, if you go back to Zanders post, the question he had bolded was to Hallia.

 

FTFY  

 

The pink salmon is the question I was referring to.

You have to read back further dearling. I was asking Shad if he didn't find it odd that Zander kept deliberately mistaking me from Hallia.

[Zander?]

Ok 2 things

 

1st- Im starting a movemnt to ban Pink Salamon as a thing,

 

2nd- I want this to get moving.  Lets lunch up a Wolf!!!!!

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

 

 

*snipped* 

Actually while you both have high post counts, I see more content in your posts than spam. ATM I am reading you as hyperactive townie.

I suppose that's fair.Zander's a villager. I have a lot of experience playing with him and a great track record reading him and I would be very very surprised if he was anything else in this game.It will help me a lot towards reading you if you spread out more and express your thoughts on the whole player base instead of just focusing on him.

Don't you find it odd that he accuses me of ignoring questions that are referencing another player?

 @Hellian: I don't get this question at all??  

 

WF, if you go back to Zanders post, the question he had bolded was to Hallia.

 

FTFY  

 

The pink salmon is the question I was referring to.

You have to read back further dearling. I was asking Shad if he didn't find it odd that Zander kept deliberately mistaking me from Hallia.

 

 

Ive never ONCE this game mistook you for Hallia.

 

The shade and misrepping sound be pretty apparent to everybody atp.

 

Can we just lunch Hellian now????

[Katiora]

I will now post in Light Salmon JUST for zander <3  

[Zander?]

I will now post in Light Salmon JUST for zander <3  

 

Also willing to lynch Kat......

[Zander?]

Really want to see more Hallia too!!!

[Katiora]

 

I will now post in Light Salmon JUST for zander <3  

 

Also willing to lynch Kat......

 

sadface.gif

 

that hurts my heart....  

[Katiora]

Dang it i forgot to post that in light salmon! I wish I could default it..... 

[Zander?]

 

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ABOARDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!

[Zander?]

OK like serious question to everyone:

 

Can you name or show me like one villagery thing from Hellian?

[Believer]

Really want to see more Hallia too!!!

Who doesn't?

[Zander?]

 

 

I will now post in Light Salmon JUST for zander <3  

 

Also willing to lynch Kat......

 

sadface.gif

 

that hurts my heart....

 

 

 

Dang it i forgot to post that in light salmon! I wish I could default it..... 

 

*waiting on Cass permission in the QT to Lunch Kat*

 

 

Really want to see more Hallia too!!!

Who doesn't?

 

 

Villagery AF

[Ironeyes]

 

AlaCassZam: I probably don't need to explain myself here.

Considering I don't see any previous comments from you irt your opinion on his alignment, I think you do.

 

Nolder: I alluded to this in my last post but I think Nol is playing pro-town.

At first Nolder was looking hypocritical because he was FOSing Shad for acting without explaining himself, but refused to explain himself either. But when I asked, Nol immediately explained.

Can you elaborate? Because I don't see where the above quote leads to your read.

 

Believer: I dunno.

And this is an interesting reason to have someone below null.

On closer analysis these questions are easier to answer than I thought. I snipped the ones I already talked about, which leaves Zander/Cass, Nolder, and Believer. The latter two were just gut reads at the time, although since then Believer solidified my read on him with his vote-flip-flopping after I challenged him for leaving his first vote where it was. Nolder hasn't changed much. And Zander is the main reason I'm reading their Hydra as town. He seems normal and doesn't feel like he has any ulterior motives.