Beyond the Wall - Game Thread - GAME OVER

[Shad_]

Wow, fascinating how many people got hyper-defensive of Lenlo.

[Lenlo]

Is that what you call "hyper defensive"?

[Kaylee]

Didn't get defensive of Leno, but rather think he came out better.

 

And how many people? Lol You mean myself, Sirren and was there sometime else?

[Kaylee]

Is that what you call "hyper defensive"?

I agree strong words, I don't see it.

[Shad_]

 

 

 

 

 

and I agree with sili that if you thought z was a wolf why the hesitation voting him? why give celeste time? I KNOW that doesnt always happen i subbed for hallia once i think it was her and was walking right into the lynch. like 4 hrs or something later im dead.

 

leaving my vote there

Your slot had already been peeked red in that game.

 

(What kind of jerk mod subs someone into a peeked wolf slot? )

 

I absolutely don't get the issue with giving a fresh sub time to contribute when we have 24 hours left on the clock anyway.

 

Honestly I don't get any of this.

 

Correct me if I'm tracking this wrong:

 

You think Zander is null at worst on his own merit, and you think the push on him is scummy so implicitly he's probably villa.

 

A player who had been pushing to lynch him now wants to reconsider and not rush the matter before giving the sub a chance.

 

This bothers you enough to progress from a suss to a locked vote.

 

Do you think Zander's a wolf now?

 

Like, I could see you thinking Sirren's post was a manner of testing the water to see if she could still push a lynch through now that a sub's come in, but her indecisive 'should I give it time or vote anyway?' approach isn't what you're taking issue with. Your issue is that she even considered backing off for a bit.

 

What I'm basically taking away from this is that you think Sirren is scummy for not encouraging a speed lynch on a player who you think is a villager. :???:

 

 

 

I don't know, I think Dice has been barking up the wrong tree quite a bit in this game and on the one hand it's usually a good look when he's off in left field doing his own thing, on the other it feels a little opportunistic.  Like a matter of trying to defend hard without looking like you're defending hard by actually going after the people pushing the lynch instead of just defending.

 

/shrug

 

Kind of want to see a Z flip before I put too much thought into it.

 

im not actually defending zander you know.  i havent given one reason why he is town. Im taking issue with lenlos thinking and a post of sirrens  not people wanting to lynch zander

 

and to another question from u   yeah i think you missed something. I quoted sirrens post and highlighted the whole planning bit when i voted her. Also said about since when does town have a plan?  she responded to me after which i said i was leaving my vote

 

Red, I just don't see how you can have all of these reads revolving around the treatment of Zander and yet have no opinion on his slot at this point.  I mean you've called multiple players scummy for their pushes on Zander.  If you're a villager, you should think the slot is > rand town at this point even if you consider it null on its own merits, unless you think he was heavily bussed, which I assume you would have stated at this point.  So defending him isn't a bad thing under these circumstances and I don't see why you'd deny it.  If you're a wolf and Zander is a villager, I think you'd be pretty chill with letting his lynch go through.  Neither is the case here.  You're sort of distancing from him by insisting you don't have an opinion on him while still sussing the people who push him.  That feels like a wolf defending a team mate.  The fact that you're denying any sort of defense is part of the issue.

 

 

Blue, I did see you highlight a particular statement and I didn't really understand why at the time.  You literally just said "Wanna tell me how town can carry on with what they were planning? Vote: Sirren".  I took your next post as a follow-through, not a second point.  If your an issue was specifically her use of the word "planning"...  ok?  I'll grant that you didn't change your reasoning mid-stride then, but it's weak to the point that I didn't even interpret it as one at the time.

 

I guess I've never been shy to call things as they are and it doesn't bother me when others do.  Zander was the most likely person to be the D1 lynch at the time she posted.  Calling it the "plan" is just stating reality and if anything demonstrates a lack of concern for how other players perceive you.  That you don't see it this way isn't necessarily bothersome, though I wish you'd been more explicit, but it doesn't really resolve my concern about your second point--the whole business of town!Sirren should have just voted him and not waited for Celeste to start posting.

 

 

and yet again I didnt defend Zander. I attacked the people voting him for things they said way they seemed to be thinking. At some point are you going to understand that?

You keep restating this without addressing my issue. It doesn't make sense to have no thoughts on Z's slot when you've been sussing people for their approach to that slot.

 

Like, "man, a bunch of scummy people are making an opportunistic push to lynch Zander while he's afk. I think Zander's been heavily spewed null at this point."

 

A villager doesn't think that.

 

A villager doesn't have no thoughts on the slot at this point.

 

Do you understand my concern here?

 

 

 

 

 

cant find the quote huh shad?

Also this really happened.

 

He later said he blew it off because he never called Zander town.

 

:???:

 

Click the spoiler.  Read the text.  His argument all phase for ignoring this has been to basically agree with the point I make against him in it.

 

 

Go into that quote and highlight the bit where I said Zander is town.  Go on. I will wait.

 

I note you REALLY like requoting my  "cant find the quote" quote out of context. this is wht?? 2nd 3rd time?

 

He keeps saying this. I keep saying why/what does this have to do with anything/why not address my issues instead of blowing them all off to bring up this unrelated point/I never said you said this.

 

He just keeps repeating the same argument over and over and over again.

 

It's as if I said "If you really think I'm scum go show me where I said "She sells seashells by the seashore!" Go on, do it loser. Until you do I am lock town and will ignore all difficult questions."

[Lenlo]

Darthe, whats the current VC and how much more time do we have before DL?

[Shad_]

Didn't get defensive of Leno, but rather think he came out better.

 

And how many people? Lol You mean myself, Sirren and was there sometime else?

 

Sirren says I'm unreasonable and very aggressive out of the blue.  Quotes nothing.  Comments on nothing.  Doesn't address my points.

 

You quote posts I made responding to Lenlo suggesting that Dice and I are both non-town and scum!Dice really did peek me a wolf and spin it as TMI on my part rather than on Lenlo's.  You say I'm reaching out of nowhere because I wondered if this game would be crazy enough for recruitment, instead of actually forming an opinion on any of my actual criticism of Lenlo.

 

Basically both of you approach a challenge at Lenlo with either a generic "no Lenlo's town Shad must be scum after all" answer or by picking a few random lines out of context while completely ignoring the actual content of the discussion.

 

Both of these approaches come off on the surface as defensive of Lenlo, or a wishywash excuse to back down from a strong town read on me without having to justify it, or both.  Neither of them make much sense from a villager POV.

 

It's fascinating because quite a few people started looking wolfy when 1) an opportunity to mislynch the most consensus villager entered the picture and 2) Lenlo's alignment came under question.

[Lenlo]

You think your the most consensus villager? Really?

[Shad_]

so you wanna talk my meta.  ok then.  which meta?

 

the scum one some still believe that a quiet dice is scum dice? the town one that an argumentative dice is town dice? the hes thinking weird thoughts must be town one? the he makes obvious scum linked fake role claims one??  oh thats right that one doesnt exist.

 

So  lets see   quiet Dice.  Have I been quiet?  

 

argumentative dice    have i done that?

 

weird thinking dice   have i done that?

 

 

well???  which meta do you wanna talk about?

 

 

This argument: Here's some meta that I constantly insist does not apply to me.  I'm going to say you said it instead of quoting the completely different meta that you did use, and pretend it does apply to me now.  Hey look I'm not doing it, so I must be a villager.

[Shad_]

You think your the most consensus villager? Really?

 

I was the most consensus villager prior to Dice's claim.

 

Did a cop claim with a promise for mason support make people wary?  Yes.

 

Did a few players readjust their stances in a pretty opportunistic manner?  Yes

 

My job as a villager is to determine which of you are sincerely concerned and which of you are wolves.

 

Go back before Dice's claim.  Pull up everyone's reads.  I was literally the most consensus villager.  This is an empirical fact. 

[Punished Balrog]

I see because then they could be lying about the peek. Good logic.

 

What if he flips 3rd party? Which I'm guessing is more likely Dice will flip.

If he flips 3rd party Role Cop No Lyncher, then I guess Shad would be scum? Seems a bit odd though, 3rd Party Role cop? What's a 3rd Party gonna do with that power? Hmm Use it for gravy points?

[Lenlo]

I disagree with you on your "Empirical Fact", but its really irrelevant how today is gonna go, in all likelihood.

[Hallia]

Well, Clov was pretty consensus villa in the game where Lily viewed him.  I'm going to go with it.

 

Vote: Shad

[Lenlo]

Im heading off to work. Leaning towards voting Shad at this point, even if Princess doesnt get replaced on time to confirm Dice.

[Shad_]

and @ Sirren about Dice's claim being suicide if he's a wolf.

 

Dice was being speed lynched and was at or very near L1 when he claimed.

 

This isn't new information.

 

Does the mason bit throw a o_O into the equation.

 

Yeah.  Flea also hasn't been around to support it and the only mason flip so far was non-town, so it needs to be taken with a grain of salt no matter how you cut it.

 

It is concerning when active and involved players do not address the sewage that has been Dice's gameplay and focus exclusively on the claim.

 

Really bad villagers do it sometimes, and wolves do it often, and it's generally how towns eat themselves alive.  Look at Lost when Zander was an outed wolf and claimed a red peek on Dice at the last minute.  A few players heard "peek" and policy voted with the person who had spent the previous two days posting lolcat gifs because he'd given up.  So yeah, it doesn't make all of you wolves.  It makes some of you wolves, almost certainly, and it makes the rest of you really bad villagers.

[SiRReN]

 

Didn't get defensive of Leno, but rather think he came out better.

 

And how many people? Lol You mean myself, Sirren and was there sometime else?

 

Sirren says I'm unreasonable and very aggressive out of the blue.  Quotes nothing.  Comments on nothing.  Doesn't address my points.

 

You quote posts I made responding to Lenlo suggesting that Dice and I are both non-town and scum!Dice really did peek me a wolf and spin it as TMI on my part rather than on Lenlo's.  You say I'm reaching out of nowhere because I wondered if this game would be crazy enough for recruitment, instead of actually forming an opinion on any of my actual criticism of Lenlo.

 

Basically both of you approach a challenge at Lenlo with either a generic "no Lenlo's town Shad must be scum after all" answer or by picking a few random lines out of context while completely ignoring the actual content of the discussion.

 

Both of these approaches come off on the surface as defensive of Lenlo, or a wishywash excuse to back down from a strong town read on me without having to justify it, or both.  Neither of them make much sense from a villager POV.

 

It's fascinating because quite a few people started looking wolfy when 1) an opportunity to mislynch the most consensus villager entered the picture and 2) Lenlo's alignment came under question.

 

1) You are not consensus villager. You were in my top town reads Day 1, yes, but I had Lenlo and AJ higher above you. Considering what AJ flipped, just because I thought you were town Day 1 no longer means you are. 

 

2) I didn't quote anything because I wasn't responding to anything specific, I was summarizing my thoughts. Everyone is reading the thread as much as I have been, if they want a specific quote they can ask me for it. 

 

3) I said Lenlo looked better than you are your talk with him, but that you came out of your conversation with Dice better. If I was basing my reads solely on just "who looks better" then I wouldn't be voting for you. Dice looks TERRIBLE, but due to other stuff that I spoke about, I believe him over you right now. I addressed those things in my post, but thanks for ignoring that and trying to summarize my post into "Lenlo is town, so Shad must be scum".

[Shad_]

1) A lot of people have used the "I was wrong on AJ so" line up to this point as a reason against me.  I am not AJ, and when I pointed out that AJ was >> rand playing his Survivor role with the intent to win with Town no one questioned me.  Altering a read on someone requires a read-based reason.

 

2) That's fine.  I am now asking you for specific quotes.  Look at what Lenlo said and what I responded with and explain what you feel I did that was wolfy/he did that was villagery specifically.

 

3) If you had made that post without the bit about me looking terrible in my exchange with Lenlo last night, I would have still been irritated by it but I don't know that it would have pinged me.  Lenlo has started to really concern me this phase, and it got substantially worse last night, and I went into extensive detail as to why and woke up to see a generic "Shad looked bad there" from you and random nitpicking from Kaylee.  This is an awful approach if either of you are villagers.  I want you to go back and do the work irt my conversation with him yesterday and show me your actual thought process on it.

 

Villages who trust every claim lose.  Dice looks "TERRIBLE" because he's openly wolfing, and no one is really denying this, but he claimed something so .......

 

Wolves fake claim to get out of lynches or take a villager down with them all the time.  This is why reads matter.

[Songstress]

Ugh, I have a headache and it's not getting any better with all this.  I'm still working on the re-read but honestly, it's kind of irrelevant for this day phase because today has been narrowed down to Dice vs. Shad and who takes what side.  Kind of hating that fact right now because of two things.

 

1) I firmly doubt Dice is town.  In my experience, if I don't know he's town by the end of D1, he's not town. I strongly suspect he's third party here, best case scenario. 

 

2) That doesn't mean he's lying about Shad being mafia.  Shad had a great D1, but he's completely capable of fooling pretty much every single person here as mafia.

 

I find it really interesting how long it's taken for everyone but Dice and Shad to take a side here, to be honest.  This is a Darthe game, which means strange things are indeed afoot at the Circle K.  This man is responsible for a GoT game in which Jaime Lannister was town, I do not trust that a Bran claim is automatically a good guy.

 

As for this:

 

 

Dice was being speed lynched and was at or very near L1 when he claimed.

 

 

Dice had 3 quick votes on him within half an hour, out of 7 votes required.  He hinted after the first vote that he was going to drop a bomb on us, then took all of an hour to fully claim, the only thing he didn't reveal right away was his mason partner.  He hasn't even been close to L1.  Mischaracterizing his claim as a desperation move to get out of a lynch doesn't look particularly good here.

 

Right now I'm thinking neither of them is town.

[Darthe]

Vote count In 2 hours, deadline in 7 hours

[Kaylee]

 

Didn't get defensive of Leno, but rather think he came out better.

 

And how many people? Lol You mean myself, Sirren and was there sometime else?

Sirren says I'm unreasonable and very aggressive out of the blue. Quotes nothing. Comments on nothing. Doesn't address my points.

 

You quote posts I made responding to Lenlo suggesting that Dice and I are both non-town and scum!Dice really did peek me a wolf and spin it as TMI on my part rather than on Lenlo's. You say I'm reaching out of nowhere because I wondered if this game would be crazy enough for recruitment, instead of actually forming an opinion on any of my actual criticism of Lenlo.

 

Basically both of you approach a challenge at Lenlo with either a generic "no Lenlo's town Shad must be scum after all" answer or by picking a few random lines out of context while completely ignoring the actual content of the discussion.

 

Both of these approaches come off on the surface as defensive of Lenlo, or a wishywash excuse to back down from a strong town read on me without having to justify it, or both. Neither of them make much sense from a villager POV.

 

It's fascinating because quite a few people started looking wolfy when 1) an opportunity to mislynch the most consensus villager entered the picture and 2) Lenlo's alignment came under question.

The TMI comment was about the multiple mafia teams angle, not recruiting. It wasn't even that you suggested it but rather that you suggest it, then ask him to show if he's a villager. If there are more than one mafia teams I propose there is no town due to balance. You brought it up twice. Then you propose that you and Dice could be mafia. Which to me suggests another team. Why? Because being on Anne team as mafia doesn't make any sense with how you're going at each other.

 

As far as what SiRReN said about you I think she's right. Your tone is different in dealing with Len than it is with Dice.

 

And I did justify why I switched. It wasn't just that you had possible TMI, but that I am now leaning towards believing Dice's mason claim.

[Shad_]

I have to start my day and won't be available until after deadline.  Feeling hesitant when someone makes a strong claim is reasonable.  Lynching the guy who's been really villagery over the person who everyone agrees has been pretty much openly wolfing is not.

 

For what it's worth, I'm an Avoider.  Each night I can target a player and if they perform an action on me it will have no effect.  I targeted Celeste N1 because her and Zander both like to get rid of me early when they wolf and Z has a lot of sway in mafia QTs.  Good luck with the 'goon' result claim.

[Kaylee]

 

I see because then they could be lying about the peek. Good logic.

 

What if he flips 3rd party? Which I'm guessing is more likely Dice will flip.

If he flips 3rd party Role Cop No Lyncher, then I guess Shad would be scum? Seems a bit odd though, 3rd Party Role cop? What's a 3rd Party gonna do with that power? Hmm Use it for gravy points?

I don't know I just not sold on Dice being town. Mason seems more likely though...just don't see it being town mason.

[Lenlo]

You wanna talk obscure roles we never see, there's one. Never heard of it

[Lenlo]

Also doesn't look like a town role. Also no way to confirm it.

[Kaylee]

Well, Clov was pretty consensus villa in the game where Lily viewed him. I'm going to go with it.

 

Vote: Shad

Wow Hally, great reasoning.

 

I really expect more from you.