Beyond the Wall - Game Thread - GAME OVER

[Shad_]

Ok really going to bed now.

[BFG]

Sort of managed to skim most of Day 2

 

The argument between Shad/Lenlo/Dice is just going in circles at this point and isn't making me want to trust any of them particularly. Shad's sounding more logical, but I don't think this necessarily makes him villager. first instincts are to trust the mason claim, but I stopped reading the posts properly in favour of trying to catch up before work and I desperately need to read with more depth

 

WiFi's if I can 'guess' the mason partner thing was weird, and given Balrog voted Dice earlier today was never going to be his partner. Other than that I don't recall much and nor did she seem to draw any conclusions from it.

 

Snow not considering the implications of Dice's mason claim is troubling

 

I think I agree with SiRRen that Balrog's level of engagement seems ~good and within his town range

 

I'm not actually bothered by Dice claiming role cop over a regular cop given that Sili flipped with 2 different alignments. I'm a bit surprised that the role was 'goon' since that sounds simple considering the flips so far.

 

I think at this stage I need to wait for PBF to show up, but mafia claiming masons with town is something I have never seen. I have seen mafia claiming masons but the situation was very different, in that game it would have been a winning play if believed, in this game it ~isn't. Also need to ISO Dice/Shad to see their stuff from Day 1

 

Back with more later

[Shad_]

and I desperately need to read with more depth

Please do. You're more thoughtful than most and have plenty of experience reading both of us. You modded Dragon Reborn and know exactly what I'm talking about with Dice here.

 

Expectations etc

[Shad_]

>_>

 

<_<

 

sleep

[BFG]

 

and I desperately need to read with more depth

Please do. You're more thoughtful than most and have plenty of experience reading both of us. You modded Dragon Reborn and know exactly what I'm talking about with Dice here.

 

Expectations etc

No worries

 

With little to no context your posts on Dice look bad for him, but I'm struggling to see mafia!Dice make a claim that either outs him completely if PBF denies it, or condemns a mafia partner if she agrees.

 

Will read more thoroughly later though!

[BFG]

Sleep well :)

[dicetosser1]

 

 

 

 

and I agree with sili that if you thought z was a wolf why the hesitation voting him? why give celeste time? I KNOW that doesnt always happen i subbed for hallia once i think it was her and was walking right into the lynch. like 4 hrs or something later im dead.

 

leaving my vote there

Your slot had already been peeked red in that game.

 

(What kind of jerk mod subs someone into a peeked wolf slot? )

 

I absolutely don't get the issue with giving a fresh sub time to contribute when we have 24 hours left on the clock anyway.

 

Honestly I don't get any of this.

 

Correct me if I'm tracking this wrong:

 

You think Zander is null at worst on his own merit, and you think the push on him is scummy so implicitly he's probably villa.

 

A player who had been pushing to lynch him now wants to reconsider and not rush the matter before giving the sub a chance.

 

This bothers you enough to progress from a suss to a locked vote.

 

Do you think Zander's a wolf now?

 

Like, I could see you thinking Sirren's post was a manner of testing the water to see if she could still push a lynch through now that a sub's come in, but her indecisive 'should I give it time or vote anyway?' approach isn't what you're taking issue with. Your issue is that she even considered backing off for a bit.

 

What I'm basically taking away from this is that you think Sirren is scummy for not encouraging a speed lynch on a player who you think is a villager. :???:

 

 

 

I don't know, I think Dice has been barking up the wrong tree quite a bit in this game and on the one hand it's usually a good look when he's off in left field doing his own thing, on the other it feels a little opportunistic.  Like a matter of trying to defend hard without looking like you're defending hard by actually going after the people pushing the lynch instead of just defending.

 

/shrug

 

Kind of want to see a Z flip before I put too much thought into it.

 

im not actually defending zander you know.  i havent given one reason why he is town. Im taking issue with lenlos thinking and a post of sirrens  not people wanting to lynch zander

 

and to another question from u   yeah i think you missed something. I quoted sirrens post and highlighted the whole planning bit when i voted her. Also said about since when does town have a plan?  she responded to me after which i said i was leaving my vote

 

Red, I just don't see how you can have all of these reads revolving around the treatment of Zander and yet have no opinion on his slot at this point.  I mean you've called multiple players scummy for their pushes on Zander.  If you're a villager, you should think the slot is > rand town at this point even if you consider it null on its own merits, unless you think he was heavily bussed, which I assume you would have stated at this point.  So defending him isn't a bad thing under these circumstances and I don't see why you'd deny it.  If you're a wolf and Zander is a villager, I think you'd be pretty chill with letting his lynch go through.  Neither is the case here.  You're sort of distancing from him by insisting you don't have an opinion on him while still sussing the people who push him.  That feels like a wolf defending a team mate.  The fact that you're denying any sort of defense is part of the issue.

 

 

Blue, I did see you highlight a particular statement and I didn't really understand why at the time.  You literally just said "Wanna tell me how town can carry on with what they were planning? Vote: Sirren".  I took your next post as a follow-through, not a second point.  If your an issue was specifically her use of the word "planning"...  ok?  I'll grant that you didn't change your reasoning mid-stride then, but it's weak to the point that I didn't even interpret it as one at the time.

 

I guess I've never been shy to call things as they are and it doesn't bother me when others do.  Zander was the most likely person to be the D1 lynch at the time she posted.  Calling it the "plan" is just stating reality and if anything demonstrates a lack of concern for how other players perceive you.  That you don't see it this way isn't necessarily bothersome, though I wish you'd been more explicit, but it doesn't really resolve my concern about your second point--the whole business of town!Sirren should have just voted him and not waited for Celeste to start posting.

 

 

and yet again I didnt defend Zander. I attacked the people voting him for things they said way they seemed to be thinking. At some point are you going to understand that?

You keep restating this without addressing my issue. It doesn't make sense to have no thoughts on Z's slot when you've been sussing people for their approach to that slot.

 

Like, "man, a bunch of scummy people are making an opportunistic push to lynch Zander while he's afk. I think Zander's been heavily spewed null at this point."

 

A villager doesn't think that.

 

A villager doesn't have no thoughts on the slot at this point.

 

Do you understand my concern here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

cant find the quote huh shad?

Also this really happened.

 

He later said he blew it off because he never called Zander town.

 

:???:

 

Click the spoiler.  Read the text.  His argument all phase for ignoring this has been to basically agree with the point I make against him in it.

 

Go into that quote and highlight the bit where I said Zander is town.  Go on. I will wait.

 

I note you REALLY like requoting my  "cant find the quote" quote out of context. this is wht?? 2nd 3rd time?

[dicetosser1]

so you wanna talk my meta.  ok then.  which meta?

 

the scum one some still believe that a quiet dice is scum dice? the town one that an argumentative dice is town dice? the hes thinking weird thoughts must be town one? the he makes obvious scum linked fake role claims one??  oh thats right that one doesnt exist.

 

So  lets see   quiet Dice.  Have I been quiet?  

 

argumentative dice    have i done that?

 

weird thinking dice   have i done that?

 

 

well???  which meta do you wanna talk about?

[dicetosser1]

as for sooh and zander   thanks to you jogging my memory i think i kinda remember the sooh one now. I defended her that a RL situation had no bearing on her alignment didnt i? 

 

 

the only similarity with zander here  is that I purposely held myself from making a call on his alignment because im having a great deal of sympathy for him atm and am biased.  thats it.

 

 

And before  you  try saying i only do things relating to out of game things as scum  I will tell you now your wrong. I do it as any. See Nomi game for eg  or me going sili for language  or games with tom for bullying  or the BT game where john mcclane left after i told him if he didnt like the boards rules dont play here.

 

Me and out of game  or DM COC matters are completely null.

[Darthe]

Pbf requested replacement yesterday but ive not been able and find one. Sorry about that.

[dicetosser1]

so you still wanna talk meta?   

 

how about Tone.  Yours changed substantially as soon as I said you were scum   youve reverted to fear mongering, constantly reusing the same posts, using posts out of context and twisting peoples words..

 

reading ure posts today compared to yesterday should make it clear ure scum even without my view.

 

 

can we just lynch this scum now?

[BFG]

So I got as far as Balrogs vote for Dice and noted that he was suspicious of PBF since she took a similar stance to Dice about the Zander/Celeste thing.

 

In ISO the only read she gives on Dice is null, but she seems to spend a fair bit of time mediating between her Dice and AJ/Lenlo (town reads). I'll need to look again to see how she treats her other nulls, but at the moment I ~can see a link between them, although I'd be happier if it was clearer one way or another.

 

Dice/Shad ISOs will have to wait till I'm off my mobile.

[BFG]

There was one thing, given PBFs vote on Celeste and Silis vote on PBF PBF seems unlikely to be aligned with either of them

[SiRReN]

[unvote]

 

This is getting really messy. I feel like Shad comes out on top when talking with Dice, but he becomes unreasonable and very aggressive when talking to Lenlo, whose uncertainty kind of mirrors mine the longer this goes on. 

 

Dice's claim that Princess is his mason partner and that she's been AFK because of assignments matching up with what I know about her. There's no way she wouldn't be here if she could, the only thing that would keep her away is school or work. As to him not wanting to reveal her without her permission, I find that to be entirely reasonable and makes Dice looks better for it. If I was his partner, I don't know if I'd want my name thrown into the middle of this, and the fact that he recognizes his partner might feel that way confirms for me that the masons must have other win conditions (if their wincondition was just to make it to the end together or something, it wouldn't matter if he revealed her because he's already likely dead otherwise, so she must have other winconditions that he didn't want to ruin the chance at without her permission). We forced his hand though, and he lived up to the promise to reveal his partner after the 5.5 hours, and he revealed Princess.

 

I believe him. I believe that he is a mason and that Princess is his partner. So that's out of the way for me. Now the matter at hand, for me, anyway, is whether I believe his claim that he's a mason role cop and that he peeked Shad.

 

We've already talked about how role cops aren't necessarily town, and in this game we've seen that masons aren't necessarily town, because they seem to have third party winconditions as well as others we don't know about between the masons. Or the masons are just given the benefit of someone to talk to. So Dice being both a mason and a role cop (especially in light of what AJ flipped) is within the realm of possibility. The fact that he claimed role cop is pretty WIFOM, and everyone is probably going to have different opinions, but I think he's being honest in regards to the role cop. If his sole intent this phase was to get Shad lynched, claiming role cop alone wasn't going to make it happen, because too many people would doubt it. We've questioned his motivations and he explained them, and we've questioned exactly what he got in his check and he also explained that (checked Shad because he's a player that was suspicious of him and because he has the skill to successfully pretend to be town)(received back the report that Shad is goon, and good was coloured red). 

 

Now the only thing I need to determine for myself is whether Dice could potentially be lying about his results. I have questions that probably will never be answered. Dice was suspicious of me Day 1, suspicious enough to vote for me, and yet he didn't check me. If I were him, I'm the person I would have checked. At the time he would have had to submit his selection though, Shad had already begun to suspect him, so I guess that was enough, plus Shad's experience, to make him pick Shad. 

 

There's only one reason Dice has to come forward, whether he's telling the truth or not, and that's to get Shad lynched. But there's multitude of reasons for him to hold back: maybe no one believes him; maybe it gets him lynched; he has to reveal his partner to verify his claim. I feel like he'd only take the risk if he was confident in the check he got back, and was telling the truth. Because he's dead otherwise - heck, he might be dead tonight, because if he's not mafia, mafia might not want him in the game, especially if he guess right in picking Shad. Maybe he picks right again. If he's lying though, he's also dead, because we'll lynch him tomorrow, hands down, no questions asked. If Shad flips anything other than red goon, nothing Dice says can save him from the noose tomorrow. 

 

Some of you won't like my vote, but I've really been thinking about this. I don't need to wait for confirmation from Dice's partner (and certainly it apparently won't be coming in time anyway, since Princess has requested a replacement). No matter how odd I found Dice's play D1 and no matter how honestly terrible he has at making his case (sorry), I believe him.

 

[v]Shad[/v]

 

BFG I'm really interested in hearing your stance on this :( From what I hear about you, you're a really good player, and apparently you know both Dice and Shad's meta. Whatever you conclude, I'm going to take it more into account than anything Shad, Dice, or Lenlo say from this point forward, because it's gotten very muddy between the three of them.

 

Hallia, Kaylee, Songstress, Balrog, I'd also like to know what you think.

[Punished Balrog]

There's only one reason Dice has to come forward, whether he's telling the truth or not, and that's to get Shad lynched. But there's multitude of reasons for him to hold back: maybe no one believes him; maybe it gets him lynched; he has to reveal his partner to verify his claim. I feel like he'd only take the risk if he was confident in the check he got back, and was telling the truth. Because he's dead otherwise - heck, he might be dead tonight, because if he's not mafia, mafia might not want him in the game, especially if he guess right in picking Shad. Maybe he picks right again. If he's lying though, he's also dead, because we'll lynch him tomorrow, hands down, no questions asked. If Shad flips anything other than red goon, nothing Dice says can save him from the noose tomorrow.

This paragraph immediately made me think a lyncher is another possibility. Claim you peeked Goon and go all in, you've got nothing to lose. Especially in a game with 3 kills N1; it could make Dice rush worrying that waiting any longer Shad could be killed in the night. 

I admit, you've got a point that Shad is unreasonable and aggressive towards Lenlo; honestly I've always hated when people argue with others and paint them as scum just for disagreeing. But there's just a number of things that make me want to side with him. Like Dice claims their report said Goon; but look at the flips so far:

Mafia-Alpha Brood

Jester-Survivor

SK-Alpha Brood

Jester 

Goon, just seems so... plain? I guess it's possible, just not what I'd expect. 

And Dice has mentioned that they're "never mafia", its another argument that's holey unconvincing. I wasn't mafia for years, until I was. 

Or Shad saying that Dice is matching their mafia Meta, and Dice says "No when I'm mafia, I'm quite and I haven't been". I don't trust a argument built upon "I would do this and I'm not" As far as I recall, no one stepped in to correct Shad before when he was talking about Dice's meta; and if he was incorrect, I'd expect someone to have. 

 

So yeah, Shad looked awful while arguing Lenlo, but I still think he hold up better compared to Dice. 

[SiRReN]

I'm guessing a lyncher is the opposite of angel? (If I'm remembering Angel right from our EpicMafia games) Where he has someone specific to lynch (your context suggests that to me, but want to make sure).

 

Regarding the Mafia-Alpha Brood thing; I don't interpret that Brood to be another alignment/wincondition, it seemed more like an additional thing, like having a mason. Sili was mafia, and was also in a group (brood) with Celeste. So Sili was just mafia, in my books, which means if she'd been investigated instead she also would have given the result of goon.

 

Dice saying he's "never mafia" in this game, doesn't mean to me that he's always town, but rather just specifically to this game where he would have been using false bravado in the beginning just to say he's not mafia this game. His wordy was super sketchy, I'll give you that (just say you aren't mafia, not 'never mafia'), but Dice has kind of demonstrated that they don't have a way with words, and in fact often word things very poorly.

 

I did and do agree that Shad holds up better in his conversations against Dice, but honestly, I think anyone could do that, because like I said, it seems like Dice's personality and play style is just to act like they know better than anyone and thus they don't explain themselves well, plus it's sometimes hard to understand because they don't write in a way that's easy to read. But the other stuff I've said made me feel comfortable dismissing that, because there's probably many examples where someone who speaks poorly is mislynched because the people leading their lynch are more eloquent. 

 

I think Dice is third party mason, I now this Princess is also third party mason, and I think Dice is telling the truth about their result, so I guess that means Shad is mafia. It goes completely against what I read of him all game, but if I believe Dice (and I do), then that means Shad is mafia.

 

And if Dice is a liar, then he's dead tomorrow.

[Punished Balrog]

And if Dice is a liar, then he's dead tomorrow.

 

Not if he's a lyncher; but that's just speculation :v 

 

[SiRReN]

Ohhhh, I see what you mean.

 

So are you proposing lynching Dice first, and if he flips what he said he is, lynch Shad tomorrow? Or just lynch Dice period.

[Punished Balrog]

I'd like to lynch Dice. 

 

I'm not sure what 3rd parties completing their Win Con's during the game means for the big picture, but I don't think it's good. 

 

If Dice were to flip town; I'd feel awful and obviously we'd kill Shad the next day, if he even lived that long; but I feel strongly that Dice wont. 

[Kaylee]

*Snipped this quote.

 

What mechanics Shad? Do you know something I dont? Because all ive seen is a Mason Survivor Jester, a Wolf and an SK in the same "brood" and now a claimed Role Cop.
 
What mechanics do you know about that I dont, that make this game complex as all get out, beyond Darthe being the one who made it?

This is pretty reaching mate.

 

 
I disagree that's it's reaching...will explain more below.
 
 
 

 

Thats not explaining how the previous comments were reaching. Its also not explaining the mechanics you apparently know about. Its also not explaining the plethora of reasons, outside of his wolfiness, your trying to use to disprove his claim.
 
I never said Dice was town. I never even said he was towny. What im saying is, does that mean he is lying about a view on you?

That wasn't my response to the "reaching" question.

What reasons am I trying to use to disprove his claim beyond explaining why he's been incredibly wolfy all game? He claimed Mason in a game with an unconventional Mason. Flea will either support or deny this. It's not defensive to consider the implications of the former.

Like, it hasn't even happened yet.

To the last bit, do you think Dice is a wolf role cop who peeked me a wolf in a sort of multiball set-up?

 

 
Green: Where did you get that idea?

 
 

 

2 things Shad:
1) You accused him of calling Zander town. He said he didnt. You said he did. He asked for quotes. You never gave quotes that showed he called Zander town. Thats the defense. Stop being stupid, repetition doesnt make the opposite true.
2) Your still ignoring the mechanics and complex setup talk you mentioned. What do you know that I dont?

Red, quote where I did this.  Or bother to actually read my posts that you agreed with D1 in which my prime beef with him was the fact that he stated he had no read on Zander.
 
Blue, quote and explain your issue or address my answer to it.  You just keep stating this.
 
You can keep yelling if you like, but I sort of think you know you're just spouting nonsense at this point.  It's something you tend to do when you get carried away as a wolf.  You were pretty convincingly villa D1 though, so it's weird.  If I suggest I think you might have been recruited over night you'll probably either accuse me of TMI or spin this as my 'defense' against Dice, as that's been your approach so far tonight.  Well, we'll let the villa weigh in on it when it's not just the two of us.

 

 
 
Attacks Len calls him wolfy...brings in recruitment? Now that seems like a reach out of nowhere.

 

 

*Sigh*
 
Apparently I cant disagree with you/how you do things, and still be town. Apparently I cant want to wait for the one person who will clear this all up in a single post without being a wolf. Im not grasping at anything Shad. Im not casing you, im not calling you a wolf. Im questioning your posts and questioning why Dice cant be both wolf/3rd party and telling the truth. Why cant you both be wolves? That is the million dollar question I have been trying to get at.

 
I never complained about waiting for Flea.  >_>
 
I'm just trying to figure out your alignment, and when you do things like quote a one sentence post and claim it says something it doesn't to support Dice's argument, I get reasonably sketched out.
 
And even if you honestly misread that as me saying "Dice claimed in this thread to know that Zander is a villager", I don't see how this is relevant to any of the dozens of points I raised against Dice or to his failure to address them.
 
If you think we are both wolves in some sort of multiball set-up, I would expect you to just state this, and not preamble it with a sort of smear campaign that doesn't add up or reflect a coherent internal thought process.
 
And I don't know, you're a hard read when you get feisty and you need to keep a level head if you're a villager.  I've seen you do things that felt like open wolfing when you were town before, and I remember your go at Clov in Diablo when you spun every word out of his mouth into something ridiculous and you inexplicably flipped villager, and I sort of learned to read you correctly based on how you walk away from those engagements, and I kind of expect more of a headstrong jump-up-and-down "Shad wolf!" persistence from you in this sort of situation when you're scum, and I'm not seeing that.  But it's hard to get beyond what feels like pretty blatant misrepresentation.  When you try to properly analyze things as a villager you're an obvious villager, but you're super impatient and when you get that way you're indistinguishable from your highly inconsistent wolf game. 
 
I kind of want you to be a wolf because your posting tonight has been ridiculous, but that's not necessarily productive and meh.
 
Why can't Dice and I both be wolves?  If you're town, look at the game I've played and tell me.  That's basically what being a villager is all about.

 

 
Green: again with the multi-ball talk. Know something we don't? 
 
Blue: If it's multi-ball I don't think there'd be town. Why? They wouldn't have much of a chance. We've seen mafia, SK and jester none of which is town. Then to add another mafia team...or does mult-ball mean no town I can't remember. Either way having town in that scenario doesn't make sense. Still not sure why you brought this up as we've only seen one mafia team.
 
Underlined: No point and just eww. Agreed it's not productive...
 
Purple: Again bringing up possibilities of more than one mafia team. In fact, you seem to almost be pushing it here with how you worded it. Makes me feel sketchy about you.
 

 
 

 

 

and I desperately need to read with more depth

Please do. You're more thoughtful than most and have plenty of experience reading both of us. You modded Dragon Reborn and know exactly what I'm talking about with Dice here.

Expectations etc

 

No worries

With little to no context your posts on Dice look bad for him, but I'm struggling to see mafia!Dice make a claim that either outs him completely if PBF denies it, or condemns a mafia partner if she agrees.

Will read more thoroughly later though!

 

 
 Look forward to hearing what you have to say.
 

Pbf requested replacement yesterday but ive not been able and find one. Sorry about that.

 
That sucks since now she can't come and say either way.
 

so you still wanna talk meta?   
 
how about Tone.  Yours changed substantially as soon as I said you were scum   youve reverted to fear mongering, constantly reusing the same posts, using posts out of context and twisting peoples words..
 
reading ure posts today compared to yesterday should make it clear ure scum even without my view.
 
 
can we just lynch this scum now?

 
Bold: Dice you yourself have done this with Wild. Doesn't look great that you're now calling someone else out for it. Pot meet Kettle.

 

So I got as far as Balrogs vote for Dice and noted that he was suspicious of PBF since she took a similar stance to Dice about the Zander/Celeste thing.

In ISO the only read she gives on Dice is null, but she seems to spend a fair bit of time mediating between her Dice and AJ/Lenlo (town reads). I'll need to look again to see how she treats her other nulls, but at the moment I ~can see a link between them, although I'd be happier if it was clearer one way or another.

Dice/Shad ISOs will have to wait till I'm off my mobile.

 
Thanks BFG this helps sort things out a bit. Makes me a bit more willing to believe the mason claim.

 

[unvote]
 
This is getting really messy. I feel like Shad comes out on top when talking with Dice, but he becomes unreasonable and very aggressive when talking to Lenlo, whose uncertainty kind of mirrors mine the longer this goes on. 
 
Dice's claim that Princess is his mason partner and that she's been AFK because of assignments matching up with what I know about her. There's no way she wouldn't be here if she could, the only thing that would keep her away is school or work. As to him not wanting to reveal her without her permission, I find that to be entirely reasonable and makes Dice looks better for it. If I was his partner, I don't know if I'd want my name thrown into the middle of this, and the fact that he recognizes his partner might feel that way confirms for me that the masons must have other win conditions (if their wincondition was just to make it to the end together or something, it wouldn't matter if he revealed her because he's already likely dead otherwise, so she must have other winconditions that he didn't want to ruin the chance at without her permission). We forced his hand though, and he lived up to the promise to reveal his partner after the 5.5 hours, and he revealed Princess.
 
I believe him. I believe that he is a mason and that Princess is his partner. So that's out of the way for me. Now the matter at hand, for me, anyway, is whether I believe his claim that he's a mason role cop and that he peeked Shad.
 
We've already talked about how role cops aren't necessarily town, and in this game we've seen that masons aren't necessarily town, because they seem to have third party winconditions as well as others we don't know about between the masons. Or the masons are just given the benefit of someone to talk to. So Dice being both a mason and a role cop (especially in light of what AJ flipped) is within the realm of possibility. The fact that he claimed role cop is pretty WIFOM, and everyone is probably going to have different opinions, but I think he's being honest in regards to the role cop. If his sole intent this phase was to get Shad lynched, claiming role cop alone wasn't going to make it happen, because too many people would doubt it. We've questioned his motivations and he explained them, and we've questioned exactly what he got in his check and he also explained that (checked Shad because he's a player that was suspicious of him and because he has the skill to successfully pretend to be town)(received back the report that Shad is goon, and good was coloured red). 
 
Now the only thing I need to determine for myself is whether Dice could potentially be lying about his results. I have questions that probably will never be answered. Dice was suspicious of me Day 1, suspicious enough to vote for me, and yet he didn't check me. If I were him, I'm the person I would have checked. At the time he would have had to submit his selection though, Shad had already begun to suspect him, so I guess that was enough, plus Shad's experience, to make him pick Shad. 
 
There's only one reason Dice has to come forward, whether he's telling the truth or not, and that's to get Shad lynched. But there's multitude of reasons for him to hold back: maybe no one believes him; maybe it gets him lynched; he has to reveal his partner to verify his claim. I feel like he'd only take the risk if he was confident in the check he got back, and was telling the truth. Because he's dead otherwise - heck, he might be dead tonight, because if he's not mafia, mafia might not want him in the game, especially if he guess right in picking Shad. Maybe he picks right again. If he's lying though, he's also dead, because we'll lynch him tomorrow, hands down, no questions asked. If Shad flips anything other than red goon, nothing Dice says can save him from the noose tomorrow. 
 
Some of you won't like my vote, but I've really been thinking about this. I don't need to wait for confirmation from Dice's partner (and certainly it apparently won't be coming in time anyway, since Princess has requested a replacement). No matter how odd I found Dice's play D1 and no matter how honestly terrible he has at making his case (sorry), I believe him.
 
[v]Shad[/v]
 
BFG I'm really interested in hearing your stance on this :( From what I hear about you, you're a really good player, and apparently you know both Dice and Shad's meta. Whatever you conclude, I'm going to take it more into account than anything Shad, Dice, or Lenlo say from this point forward, because it's gotten very muddy between the three of them.
 
Hallia, Kaylee, Songstress, Balrog, I'd also like to know what you think.

Bold: I agree with that actually and is where I'm at on the 3 of them.

 

Green: The problem I have with it, even with now leaning on believeing it, is that he didn't want to claim for her. Ok I get that, yet when he does do it he even gives her role. That part I don't get.

 

Purple: Yeah I've come to the same conclusion. That and I don't like Shad's back and forth about being multiple mafia teams. Almost feels like TMI.

 

So with that and added the fact that if Dice is lying he and Princess/replacement will be next I'm willing to believe his claim and test his guilty result.

 

[v]Shad[/v]

[Kaylee]

 

And if Dice is a liar, then he's dead tomorrow.

 

Not if he's a lyncher; but that's just speculation :v 

 

 

 

I hadn't considered that. Suppose it's possible.

 

I'd like to lynch Dice. 

 

I'm not sure what 3rd parties completing their Win Con's during the game means for the big picture, but I don't think it's good. 

 

If Dice were to flip town; I'd feel awful and obviously we'd kill Shad the next day, if he even lived that long; but I feel strongly that Dice wont. 

 

Well Jester survivor Kat won and the game is still going. Not sure if the same applies to a lyncher though.

 

You say to lynch Shad next day if Dice flipped town, explain why? Also if Dice flips and was role cop then Shad would be lynched next day because he's then found scum. Either way in your scenario Shad goes next day.

 

For now my vote stays where it is...but you've definitely given me something to think about.

[Lenlo]

In my experience. Game goes on until one of the major win cons us achieved (town/wplf/cult). Solo win cons don't end games.

[Punished Balrog]

 

 

And if Dice is a liar, then he's dead tomorrow.

 

Not if he's a lyncher; but that's just speculation :v

 

 

I hadn't considered that. Suppose it's possible.

 

I'd like to lynch Dice. 

 

I'm not sure what 3rd parties completing their Win Con's during the game means for the big picture, but I don't think it's good. 

 

If Dice were to flip town; I'd feel awful and obviously we'd kill Shad the next day, if he even lived that long; but I feel strongly that Dice wont.

 

Well Jester survivor Kat won and the game is still going. Not sure if the same applies to a lyncher though.

 

You say to lynch Shad next day if Dice flipped town, explain why? Also if Dice flips and was role cop then Shad would be lynched next day because he's then found scum. Either way in your scenario Shad goes next day.

 

For now my vote stays where it is...but you've definitely given me something to think about.

 

I think the same would apply to a lyncher; isn't it bad form to keep someone in the game who's already completed their Win Con?

I say if they flip town because if they flip maf I wouldn't trust their peek, even if they were Role Cop.

[Kaylee]

I see because then they could be lying about the peek. Good logic.

 

What if he flips 3rd party? Which I'm guessing is more likely Dice will flip.

[Kaylee]

Also if they meet a solo win con then typically they don't stay in game. What would be the point?