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Beyond the Wall - Game Thread - GAME OVER


Darthe

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Posted

Alrighty, caught up, and realizing that this board just flips hostile really quick during discussions :/ at least it feels that way to me....

 

Still working on ISO's, sorry it is taking so long. Honestly, I'm feeling a bit pigeon hole'd into doing them to the very best of my ability atm, and I'm realizing just what a task it is going to be on this board.

 

  On 7/3/2016 at 2:54 PM, Punished Balrog said:

Rereading that It almost seems like I'm forcing PBF into a position where she has to trim down everything or she's scum; that's not what I mean and I don't want to paint her that way. 

 

Just that traditionally she was less helpful as scum; she didn't want to meet you half way.

You'e not forcing me into any position I haven't already forced myself into before, including this game. :) I was already planning to continue the trend I started previous, where intead of posting all my ISO's at once, or even doing all the quotes in the same post as an individual ISO, I would

break it into individual posts, with only an occassional quote if I felt it necessary. Taking notes in excell will help with me remembering what was standing out to me for drawing certain conclusions!

 

  On 7/3/2016 at 3:01 PM, SiRReN said:

Maybe Princess, you could add a TL;dr summary at the bottom of her long ISOs?

 

As for me appealing to emotion, I definitely do it more often as scum, but I've done it as town too.

This is a good idea actually, and I've done it before~  

 

  On 7/3/2016 at 3:03 PM, Punished Balrog said:

 

  On 7/3/2016 at 3:01 PM, SiRReN said:

Maybe Princess, you could add a TL;dr summary at the bottom of her long ISOs?

 

As for me appealing to emotion, I definitely do it more often as scum, but I've done it as town too.

Personally, I prefer when people bold the parts they think are the most important

 

 

~and I can do this as well, so long as I don't start getting crucified for not having a massive WoT like I and others have established as being a common meta thus far. 

 

  On 7/3/2016 at 6:29 PM, Andrej said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

AJ here is just making my point on the feeling hole'd into a single game style, which sucks for me, but whatever. After the game is over, I'll explain WHY it sucks so much, but currently it isn't relevant to what we are doing. In regards to the underlined bit... I'm not sure what you are referring to as my "first big post"?

I haven't made one yet-- I've literally listed my initial reads, flat out SAID the reasoning behind them was shoddy at best, and asked questions you then tore into me for because you made an assumption about how I was reading the thread, that you admitted, once you found out how I was actually approaching my reads, changed your opinion on how my questions came off tone wise... So could you please elaborate? Or are you saying that you

still think everything should have been obvious to me? Because I've never liked that type of argument-- it's condescending, high-handed and doesn't fit with what I would expect a townie to do, which is to explain or clarify something that, if it is being questions, might not be so obvious.

 

So based on this, and a few others I saw but didn't get a chance to quote, despite AJ's earlier, and at this point I feel sound advice to not read everyone individually but just go through the thread as a whole, I'm really not feeling I have any other recourse.

 

BTW, ISO's for me aren't about game meta, as I see a lot of you doing. I will bring it up, but I'm reading much more than that, such as reactions, behaviors, tone, wording and inconsistencies, or the lack thereof. So, yeah... fuuuuuun.

 

But I'm not giving up! *warrior spirit* Now that I had a chance to get away from the stress, I'm feeling better, not quite as tired (I need Hermione's time turner) and

willing to stay up for however long it takes tonight to get these reads out!

 

I'm not done with them all, but I'm going to start posting them anyways, both to generate discussion, and get feedback/questions from people. I'll do my best to respond, but my main focus is still going to be on the ISO's, just beware.

 

Also, really quick @WiFi: I wasn't trying to play the newbie card, I was pointing out that I was one of the more inexperienced players in comparison to him, meaning that no, things that would otherwise be apparent or make sense to a more seasoned player might not make as much sense to me.

Once I've played for longer than a month, on different boards and been given a chance to break out of my current meta without fear of a mislynch, I'll probably not feel that way anymore, but I don't think there is anything wrong with me reminding people that I, like you, don't have as much experience

and could use a little more BOTD and guidance instead of hostility.

 

That's just me though, and that comes from being a teacher. I believe in TEACHING others, not telling them they should have been able to figure it out. *shrug* that's me though :)

It's why I ask questions... and why I got so upset for being jumped on for those questions. To me, it was like being in class and having a new student ask me if they could do something and me telling them the rules for when they could do something were posted on the door, and that they should have bothered to look at everything in the room so they could have noticed those rules andread them before asking those questions.

 

Okay, gonna post my Lenlo read really quick, and then get back to ISO's.

Posted

Lenlo ISO:

He played the first half of the game being jokey and light-hearted, while still asking a few questions here and there and clarifying things, without actually contributing much by way of directly digging for reactions, responses or even providing reads, but still an overall towny feeling, as numerous individuals play that way and I don't find it really alignment indicative. The ongoing argument with/regarding Dice seems V/V, and at one point BOTH of them came off as a tad aggressive/hostile towards each other, but I think it is more over a miscommunication than anything else, or even a refusal to acknowledge that they both are raising valid points, and trying to push the other to think about the situation is a different light. This is par with his game in the second half of the phase so far, as he has been more serious, focusing on inconsistencies from players, and pushing people to give their opinions instead of sheeping.

 

Overall, I'd say he is firmly TOWN. He has been helpful, focused on scum-hunting, and contributing to the on-going dialogue re: what is in town's best interest. I see no place where he was purposely attempting to twist words, or arguments around, aside from being a bit snarky here and there, and I haven't seen him posting anything that takes away from the scum-hunting focus, or trying to distract or redirect players trains of thought-- just genuine debating and attempts to understand.

Posted

Flea, let me clarify and show you what I mean now that I can actually quote your post and not just paraphrase. Yes, I recanted my statement when I was working under the assumption that you were only reading ISOs and therefore wouldn't see the other content revolving around the posts in question. You clarified that in fact you had read the thread, so I think my point about you missing details still has merit.

 

For example:

 

  On 7/2/2016 at 6:27 AM, PrincessBFlea said:

@Sili Quirrel: You said you thought you were reading Shad_ on page one, but you had actually read John Snow and it was a null tell...

What was a null tell for JS? Why were you trying to read Shad? Did you ever go back and read Shad, and if so, what were your thoughts regarding his early
posts this game?

@AJ: when he admitted to this mix-up, why didn't you push him more about it, or follow up with questions like the one's I'm asking? Weren't you curious as
to why Sili was trying to read Shad, or is there something in his meta I'm not getting that made you dismiss this detail and not push him for a response?

 

"What was the null tell for JS?"

 

Everything said up until the middle of page 2 when Darthe stated that all PMs had finally been sent out was essentially void. If no one had their role PM, it couldn't be alignment indicative. Therefore what he thought he read about Snow's tone was null. I can actually see how maybe this wasn't apparent to you.

 

"Did you ever go back and read Shad, ....?"

 

I think this one could've been double checked pretty easily. I never asked Sili why he was trying to read Shad because I knew Shad hadn't posted yet. It's one of the reasons why I was trying to figure out who he meant because before that he said someone else. I didn't follow up beyond that because I already understood his statement about JS was true.

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 3:37 AM, keyholder21 said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 2:56 AM, Celeste said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 2:41 AM, keyholder21 said:

Celeste, what do you think of players other than John?  Like, I get that you aren't reading him town atm, but did literally no one else stand out to you?  Is someone you have only played with once or twice your strongest read?  How are you reading Sili?  Shad? dice?

 

Sili- null, his posts seem fairly neutral imo. I want to see more from him.

Shad - town, he's scum hunting and analyzing like usual but I still have yet to see scum shad

Dice - flip floppy, he's a little more head strong than usual and that's throwing me off.

Kat - slight town and I'm seeing her town range

Hallia - null, I want to see more

 

You didn't want to share these impressions when you first came in?  I find it weird that you don't have any strong views on anyone except that JS is scum...based on one? game that you played with him. Also, you said something about AJ pushing a narrative, but what about the others that are voting for Zander/you? How do you feel about them? 

 

What about Sili's activity level?  That doesn't seem weird to you?

 

Re: dice. Flip floppy as in your view on him?  Or he's being flip floppy?

 

Why the inclusion of Kat and Hally?

It's not that I didn't want to share them, the reason is I wanted to see my nulls post more. I played two games with him and replaced into his slot once. I just want him to post more because the more he comments on the game the more I can read him. It's weird that he isn't doing his stream of thought posting rapidly. I need to see more from hallia and kat is slight town.
Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 3:54 AM, Andrej said:

Have Celeste and Kat played together before?

I played one with her and watched her from the grave in key's game.
Posted

Dice is tricky as scum because I remember being in GvsD and although that was not a regular mafia game. He was the one person who slipped my radar. I don't see anything similar to that game.

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 4:59 AM, Andrej said:

Flea, let me clarify and show you what I mean now that I can actually quote your post and not just paraphrase. Yes, I recanted my statement when I was working under the assumption that you were only reading ISOs and therefore wouldn't see the other content revolving around the posts in question. You clarified that in fact you had read the thread, so I think my point about you missing details still has merit.

 

For example:

 

  On 7/2/2016 at 6:27 AM, PrincessBFlea said:

@Sili Quirrel: You said you thought you were reading Shad_ on page one, but you had actually read John Snow and it was a null tell...

 

What was a null tell for JS? Why were you trying to read Shad? Did you ever go back and read Shad, and if so, what were your thoughts regarding his early

posts this game?

 

@AJ: when he admitted to this mix-up, why didn't you push him more about it, or follow up with questions like the one's I'm asking? Weren't you curious as

to why Sili was trying to read Shad, or is there something in his meta I'm not getting that made you dismiss this detail and not push him for a response?

 

"What was the null tell for JS?"

 

Everything said up until the middle of page 2 when Darthe stated that all PMs had finally been sent out was essentially void. If no one had their role PM, it couldn't be alignment indicative. Therefore what he thought he read about Snow's tone was null. I can actually see how maybe this wasn't apparent to you.

 

"Did you ever go back and read Shad, ....?"

 

I think this one could've been double checked pretty easily. I never asked Sili why he was trying to read Shad because I knew Shad hadn't posted yet. It's one of the reasons why I was trying to figure out who he meant because before that he said someone else. I didn't follow up beyond that because I already understood his statement about JS was true.

 

Allow me to clarify a little more, because I still feel like this is more of a misunderstanding than anything else: I had already read the thread... once. I read it through one time before I started my ISO's. But that was with interruptions-- because I never DON'T have interruptions, meaning that other than getting a first impression, I didn't recall anything specific, especially about that early D1, or who specifically had already posted. I don't know many of you, and even now I'm having to do a double-take to see who it was that posted when I'm catching up and want to comment on something. 

 

I didn't know Shad hadn't posted, because I was ISO'ing, not re-reading the entire thread yet-- and if Sili or anyone else, including you, had simply responded with a "Shad hadn't even posted yet, I/he was just confused" it would have answered my question and helped me understand his ISO better without me feeling attacked or insulted.

 

At that point in the game, I directed a question at you because you had been the most helpful so far, and I was wanting to get an idea of where your head was at re: the situation, and see if I was on the wrong track, or if someone else had noticed the same thing.

 

Does this clear things up at all?

Posted

Oh! At Shad_cause I just saw your question in the ISO: In regards to the emotional bit about just lurking so I can't be called stupid anymore, yes, it was in regards to the AJ thing :/ I shouldn't have posted it, I should have gone to bed ans slept it off, it had just been a long week, there were OoT factors involved with being treated poorly, and I cracked a bit.

 

I don't handle it well when I feel I'm being personally attacked, instead of my argument being attacked, and that's something I'm working on. :) Hope this answers your question!

Posted

I'm not sure why you keep characterizing it as a personal attack.

 

I said you missed what I thought were obvious points. I never said you were stupid or sucked?

 

Whatever though, I'm not really interested in continuing to talk about it. You do you and what not. I'm looking forward to your view point.

Posted

I'm trying to resolve this AJ. I'm not saying anymore that you personally attacked me, I'm saying that at the time that is how it felt.

 

And you didn't answer my question, and while I don't want to stay on this subject either, I feel like you just ignored the actual relevant part of that post, so here it is again sans the feelings part:

 

Allow me to clarify a little more, because I still feel like this is more of a misunderstanding than anything else: I had already read the thread... once. I read it through one time before I started my ISO's. But that was with interruptions-- because I never DON'T have interruptions, meaning that other than getting a first impression, I didn't recall anything specific, especially about that early D1, or who specifically had already posted. I don't know many of you, and even now I'm having to do a double-take to see who it was that posted when I'm catching up and want to comment on something. 

 

I didn't know Shad hadn't posted, because I was ISO'ing, not re-reading the entire thread yet.

 

Does this clear things up at all?

 

 

Also, I already posted one of my first reads, working on the next. I know you already town-read Lenlo, but I would know if what I found meshes with how you feel about him, or if there is anything I may have missed.

 

I already had read you Hallia and Zander, but as Zander subbed out and there has been more content from both you and Hallia, I need to go back and add to those ISO's before I post them.

Posted

Shad_ ISO:

 

Yet another high content poster, he does a lot less joking around and kinda jumps straight in (although this is due in part ot not coming into the game until around post 220). He askes numerous people questions, digging for responses and attempting to clarify interactions between individuals, as well as provide meta when possible. His tone, actions and behaviors have remained consistent throughout, but one of the main things I liked about him in his ISO was how he looked at arguments from multiple perspectives, and  is listening to peoples cases without pushing them for not responding quickly, or even with something he agrees with-- I feel like town would either just agree with someone's argument if it made logical sense, or would argue with it and tear it apart in order to protect themselves or a scum-mate.

 

Shad is the most TOWN player I have read so far as a result~ I like that he is being reasonable, actively scum-hunting, and consistent.

Posted

I saw what you posted, just didn't comment because I didn't really feel the need to. I have taken it into consideration.

 

But if you need me to, yes, I can see what you're saying and believe it's a plausible explanation. Perhaps I am taking for granted my familiarity with the players here and my experience in comparison to yours. I'll keep that more presently in mind moving forward.

 

Generally I would agree with what you said about Lenlo. I think your statement about how he is still commenting/questioning without really driving discussion is accurate. I don't think I've ever seen Lenlo be the thread leader type, but I think the topics he's talking on and the things he is choosing to question have been good and come from a genuine effort to solve.

 

So yes, nice analysis.

Posted

Headed to bed, long day tomorrow, not the least of which is 4th of July stuff, and catching up in my online class (which, apparently my group kicked me out so I'm doing all the work on my own... which makes me happy... cause I hate collaborating in an online class), so I'll try to get on and post the rest of my ISO's in the morning-- Next I'm doing Kat, gonna finish/polish my ISO's of AJ, Hallia and Zander/Celeste, and then take a look at some of the other people that seem to be a part of the main discussions.

 

Goodnight all!

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 1:30 AM, SiRReN said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:11 AM, dicetosser1 said:

im not looking at Zander at all at this time because I KNOW i have a bias there.

 

You said youd get something good. I wanted to know what you got if he flipped town. It seems you arnt even CONSIDERING the option that he might be town.

 

considering its D1 that seems too adamant

Does this mean you're ignoring his posts, or just not trying to read him?

 

 

I will talk about things that jump out at me but i am aware that i am currently very sympathetic to him and its affecting my decision making on him. As such I will let other people make the decision and just add my 2 cents worth. 

 

 

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:31 AM, Lenlo said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:27 AM, dicetosser1 said:

im not telling you what to do. I am asking you QUESTIONS about what info you get out of it if he flips town. 

 

Questions you are unable to answer it seems.

I did answer them?

 

And how can you ask educated questions if you dont know why people are wolf reading Zander?

 

 

I KNOW why people are scum reading him. hes been weird absolutely. My issue is YOUR THINKING. its d1  andc ure focussed like a laser on zander being the lynch. So are a number of others. but he hasnt been THAT obvious scum.  weird yes  different to normal town zander yes.  but not enuff to have people ABSOLUTELY convinced he is scum on day friggin  ONE. Yet the way ure talking you have NO doubts. NONE.

 

you said you thought we would get good things from a lynch on zander. I asked you WHAT we got on WHO if he flipped town.

 

 

And you have no answer.  and dont say scum  thats an obvious answer any alignment can give and besides i asked IF HE FLIPPED TOWN!  you say im telling you who to lynch yet i havent told you "DONT LYNCH ZANDER!" ive asked you questions about what u get that is good IF he flips town. I pretty much assume you all are going to lynch him with that question.

 

AJ answered the question   said hed double down on key and kat. You?? you said "nothing" and dont even seem to now be considering that possibility

 

whats bugging me is the way u seem to be thinking. ure focused so much on zanders lynch. you say we will get good things from it but arnt even considering that you may be wrong.

 

the only people who dont have to consider if their wrong are the scum. 

 

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:33 AM, Lenlo said:

Like, why are you so concerned about info? Has info ever been a primary reason to lynch someone? "We think this person is town, but lets lynch them to confirm it and get info".

 

Thats never happened. Im not lynching him because I think we will get info because hes town. Im lynching him because I think hes a wolf. Do you know how you win mafia? You lynch wolves.

 

know what else you have to do to win mafia? Find townies. not lynch townies. 

 

if u think hes a wolf fine BUT WHAT IF HE ISNT!  where do you go from there?

 

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:36 AM, Andrej said:

Derf lol

 

The better question to ask Dice is who he thinks will be a better lynch. And SiRReN isn't the right answer imo

 

Luckily his vote isn't necessary to lynch Zander and unless he is going to purposely try to swing a wagon elsewhere I don't see it not happening.

 

sirren hasnt give me a reason to take my vote off. im seriously wondering if that planning post was a slip. and her follow up wasnt very convincing to me.

 

the people im looking at are sirren lenlo and key.  sooh seems to have dropped off the face of the earth atm

 

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:40 AM, Andrej said:

Lenlo I think he's more asking what we gain info wise if Zander is town. That's not really a reason to not pursue the lynch though imo.

 

Him using out of game stuff as a reason to avoid passing judgement on Z kind of stinks but it's also very Dicey.

 

AJ why do you think you can get what im saying and asking and yet lenlo doesnt?

 

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 2:24 AM, Shad_ said:

I don't know, I think Dice has been barking up the wrong tree quite a bit in this game and on the one hand it's usually a good look when he's off in left field doing his own thing, on the other it feels a little opportunistic.  Like a matter of trying to defend hard without looking like you're defending hard by actually going after the people pushing the lynch instead of just defending.

 

/shrug

 

Kind of want to see a Z flip before I put too much thought into it.

 

im not actually defending zander you know.  i havent given one reason why he is town. Im taking issue with lenlos thinking and a post of sirrens  not people wanting to lynch zander

 

 

and to another question from u   yeah i think you missed something. I quoted sirrens post and highlighted the whole planning bit when i voted her. Also said about since when does town have a plan?  she responded to me after which i said i was leaving my vote

Posted

Apologies for not having been here this weekend. RL has kept me occupied. I'm like 15 pages behind currently, but I'll try to catch up some time today. 

 

ION I'm starting my summer job today! First real shift at the nursing home, and I've got butterflies in my stomach. Excited, but at the same time a little scared to make mistakes. 

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 10:41 AM, dicetosser1 said:

you went from kids to old people???   lol  youre just a sucker for punishment arnt you sooh?? :D

whatever brings the money :wink:

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 3:44 AM, Shad_ said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 3:29 AM, SiRReN said:

The quote he's talking about was mostly directed at you because at the time I was talking to about when to vote for Zander. We both came to the conclusion that it was okay to wait. Then Zander subbed and I made my post asking do we give Celeste time or continue with the plan (to vote out Zander).

I basically want to know if he said more about why he's voting you than what I read, because it felt to me like he was recrafting the narrative.

 

 

Oh I see. Well he's not putting words in my mouth, I did use the word planning, but he's interpreting it to mean something I didn't, for sure. Don't know if that means he's recrafting the narrative?

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 5:03 AM, Celeste said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 3:37 AM, keyholder21 said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 2:56 AM, Celeste said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 2:41 AM, keyholder21 said:

Celeste, what do you think of players other than John?  Like, I get that you aren't reading him town atm, but did literally no one else stand out to you?  Is someone you have only played with once or twice your strongest read?  How are you reading Sili?  Shad? dice?

Sili- null, his posts seem fairly neutral imo. I want to see more from him.

Shad - town, he's scum hunting and analyzing like usual but I still have yet to see scum shad

Dice - flip floppy, he's a little more head strong than usual and that's throwing me off.

Kat - slight town and I'm seeing her town range

Hallia - null, I want to see more

 

You didn't want to share these impressions when you first came in?  I find it weird that you don't have any strong views on anyone except that JS is scum...based on one? game that you played with him. Also, you said something about AJ pushing a narrative, but what about the others that are voting for Zander/you? How do you feel about them? 

 

What about Sili's activity level?  That doesn't seem weird to you?

 

Re: dice. Flip floppy as in your view on him?  Or he's being flip floppy?

 

Why the inclusion of Kat and Hally?

It's not that I didn't want to share them, the reason is I wanted to see my nulls post more. I played two games with him and replaced into his slot once. I just want him to post more because the more he comments on the game the more I can read him. It's weird that he isn't doing his stream of thought posting rapidly. I need to see more from hallia and kat is slight town.

 

 

So to get your nulls to post more, you decided it would be wise not to post your read on them yet?

 

That seems a little backwards to me, but then, on VS when you want someone to post more you threaten to lynch them, so I guess the environment I'm coming from is just super toxic.

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 10:06 AM, dicetosser1 said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:30 AM, SiRReN said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 1:11 AM, dicetosser1 said:

im not looking at Zander at all at this time because I KNOW i have a bias there.

 

You said youd get something good. I wanted to know what you got if he flipped town. It seems you arnt even CONSIDERING the option that he might be town.

 

considering its D1 that seems too adamant

Does this mean you're ignoring his posts, or just not trying to read him?

 

 

I will talk about things that jump out at me but i am aware that i am currently very sympathetic to him and its affecting my decision making on him. As such I will let other people make the decision and just add my 2 cents worth. 

 

 

Now that Zander has been subbed out, have your feelings changed? Are you reading Celeste as if she is a new player, or are you letting your sympathy for Zander affect your reading of Celeste? (Much like we are letting our conviction that Zander is mafia affect our reading of Celeste)

 

Do you have a read on Celeste? I think she's posted enough to have at least a feeling of her alignment.

Posted

FINALLY on a computer!! YAY!!!!! lol Ok so I get where Dice is coming from. I feel that I would have been MORE suspicious of Zander had I not known what is RL going on with him, which has made me re-evaluate his playing strategies. Bleh... So I can understand him wanting to lay off of Celeste until she's had time to get in. I do agree with everyone else too though... If not him then who? 

 

Right now I have no clue who comes out as a scummier player. Heck I don't even know a bunch of these people... Honestly the only other one pinging me right now is maybe Sili??? He came in early and I felt pretty good about him...l but now he's sorta bailed. Could be because of the holiday weekend though so I'll give him that. 

 

 

Celeste what game did we play together in??? Stick figures? I can't remember... you'd think I"d be able to since I've only played in like 4-5 recently but honestly my brain has shut down... Were you hydra that game? 

 

Honestly this game is the most confusing game EVVVEERRRRRR It's worse than the multiball game I was in last... No one is really all that scummy this game. 

Posted
  On 7/4/2016 at 11:59 AM, SiRReN said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 3:44 AM, Shad_ said:

 

  On 7/4/2016 at 3:29 AM, SiRReN said:

The quote he's talking about was mostly directed at you because at the time I was talking to about when to vote for Zander. We both came to the conclusion that it was okay to wait. Then Zander subbed and I made my post asking do we give Celeste time or continue with the plan (to vote out Zander).

I basically want to know if he said more about why he's voting you than what I read, because it felt to me like he was recrafting the narrative.

 

 

Oh I see. Well he's not putting words in my mouth, I did use the word planning, but he's interpreting it to mean something I didn't, for sure. Don't know if that means he's recrafting the narrative?

 

Only scum can have a plan ldo

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