Volume Concerns: An Open Discussion

[BFG]

Anyway don't mind me I'm just grumpy at the moment (not to be confused with grumpy bear )

[BFG]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Darthe said:

To trim mqs you can spoiler everything you dont want to respond to on mobile. I'll provide an exame

 

I said I do this to

 

The point is that the initial point was 'cut' quotes down, I can't do that easily but I do TRY to make the quote smaller via other methods /shrug

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 5:29 PM, cory caboose said:

 

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Just wanted to bring up something a lot of us have discussed in private or in various threads and maybe spitball some ideas on how to make the Mafia Forum more inclusive to different playstyles and players.

 

Over the past two years, the typical volume of Mafia games here have ballooned for a multitude a reasons; one being that the Mafia community itself has started to become a large, multi-forum community with the Champions series of games, bringing players in from larger volume communities and changing the standard for newer players, another being the shift in focus from night action and lynch-related reads to a thread-related reads for a lot of the player base.

 

As someone who originated from a very low-volume forum, I too remember when you could allot maybe 10-15 minutes every other day playing a Mafia game and still have little trouble keeping current. Nowadays, that amount of time probably wouldn't get you through a third of the game thread, and I understand that this has caused some grief and disconnect.

 

The counter to this is the increased level of competition in games isn't something I think should be dissuaded. Just as there are players who are more casual in nature, there are many that are high-effort and very involved in games (including myself), and I don't think it's fair to place the blame on them. Basically:

 

A) Finding to way to limit the volume of games will lead us to be more inclusive and force less "lower content" types out of playing here. While 10-15 minutes every other day may not be a possibility anymore, I don't see any reasons why something like 45-1hr/day wouldn't be possible and I think that's manageable for most players. Finding a way to control volume and make threads more readable for the less hyperactive players would help resource that time and give each player a better chance of contributing. Some of this is self-policing, but maybe we can come up with better ideas.

 

B) Discouraging players from being highly involved / interested is something I at least believe is bad for the game. Just as there are people who would prefer lower volume games, there are people who have a lot to say and are very committed and I think that's a wonderful thing. Many of us have had moments where we felt we were "in the zone" and wanted to get our thoughts out there and make an impact, and that probably leads to volume increases in general. I think that's fine, as it is essentially a text-based educated guessing game.

 

So how do we do A without doing B? I have some ideas, but they probably aren't all that great, so that's why we are having an open discussion :P

 

Here's some things:

 

A] Create a new queue of "casual" games with firm rules on things like post-count limitations and etc. for more manageable games.

 

PROS: Will create games for "lower volume" players with manageable threads.

 

CONS: Is kind of exclusive and segregates the player base to some deal; requires more effort on the part of moderators; DM games don't fill quickly so adding a third queue might strangle how fast games fill; having multiple ongoing games tends to lead to game integrity issues.

 

 

B] Have games with real day / game day post-count limitations.

 

PROS: Has most of the benefits of A with significantly less drawbacks. I've run and participated in these in other forums (usually something like 100 posts per game day maximum) and they usually are manageable and enjoyable.

 

CONS: Enforcement and game balance. Usually games with post-count limitations cannot have majority lynch for gameplay reasons I can discuss if necessary.

 

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C] For the love of god, trim multiquotes when you are responding to a quote. If you are addressing a specific thing, cut out everything but what you are addressing and anything that requires context for it. This one's a no-brainer and just being considerate. This doesn't do much for game volume, but it will at least make the thread more readable.

 

PROS: Yes

 

CONS: No

 

---

 

These might not be very good ideas (IDKIDK) but I wanted to see if we could get a discussion rolling. Any ideas or commentary would be appreciated.

 

I also have some general ideas on how to get better mileage out of your time in game threads that are too long to read (as someone who's subbed into games with 10,000+ posts having read nothing, lol) if that's something anyone wants to discuss.

 

 

- Corky

So I agree with this a lot. I think you risk dividing an already unreliable player base but thats not such a big deal if you run it where advance games and basic limited post games run together and then they take a break to build sign ups while faster standard games run. You could do an alternating thing which would also probably be more sustainable given the number of active players. I do think that lifting the restriction 1 hour pre deadline would be better than a half hour, here.

[Cory Caboose]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:54 PM, LilyElizabeth said:

And FYI, I'm going to continue to play. I just might have to sub out of games where I can't keep up.

 

I don't want game volume concerns to encourage substitutions.

 

The major problem with subs is that they A) compromise the integrity of the game B) create problems for the moderator, who probably has enough to deal with (I'm sure you're aware :P).

 

Obviously there are times where people need to sub, but the less the better.

[alannalynn]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:54 PM, cory caboose said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:50 PM, Calder said:

I think there is a far bigger problem than the in-game volume. The heavy meta read nature of the forum.

 

I think this is basically always a "thing" when you have a relatively static player-base that isn't particularly large.

People use meta reads because they work for some people and are an effective tool; you can't really do anything about that, I think.

Cory's right, you can't tell people that they can't use meta in a forum that has the same players who play all the time. And it is a legitimate playstyle. At the same time, nobody is going to tell anyone they have to be meta heavy in order to play on the forum. Nobody should discriminate based on playstyle, but instead try to be more inclusive of everyone else. Which is why we're having the post count talk in the first place.

[Nynaeve]

I think if a mod asks the players to try not to overdo post counts.... most players would be able to comply within their own range.... without the need to actually set limitations. At least I know I can.

[BFG]

Waits for the topic on volume concerns to reach 50 pages during 'Day 1'

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Calder said:

Its like thank god we are down to 10 pages a day. So much easier to keep up with now.

 

Next post = Come back at me when you have ISOd their game from Age of Legends and GnD.

 

Yep. I will get right on that.

A Month from now I will remember nothing about the game we just finished. Not your alignment or mine, not the theme, not any techniques I discovered, nothing. HOW DO PEOPLE EVEN DO THAT?

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:56 PM, BFG said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Darthe said:

To trim mqs you can spoiler everything you dont want to respond to on mobile. I'll provide an exame

 

I said I do this to

 

The point is that the initial point was 'cut' quotes down, I can't do that easily but I do TRY to make the quote smaller via other methods /shrug

People who whine about irellevant parts being spoilered instead of deleted are being pedantic

[Verbal32]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:54 PM, cory caboose said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:50 PM, Calder said:

I think there is a far bigger problem than the in-game volume. The heavy meta read nature of the forum.

 

I think this is basically always a "thing" when you have a relatively static player-base that isn't particularly large.

 

People use meta reads because they work for some people and are an effective tool; you can't really do anything about that, I think.

 

 

I dunno, we used to have the same 15-20 people playing here all the time and we still didn't delve too much into meta reading.  I think that is more of the trend mafia has seemed to take over the past handful of years.

 

 

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:54 PM, BFG said:

Anyway don't mind me I'm just grumpy at the moment (not to be confused with grumpy bear )

 

>_<  hehe

[Cory Caboose]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Calder said:

Its like thank god we are down to 10 pages a day. So much easier to keep up with now.

 

Next post = Come back at me when you have ISOd their game from Age of Legends and GnD.

 

Yep. I will get right on that.

 

ISOs are actually pretty easy on DM. You lose context absolutely but they are still pretty quick and easy with players who aren't intensely high volume.

[BFG]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:59 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Calder said:

Its like thank god we are down to 10 pages a day. So much easier to keep up with now.

 

Next post = Come back at me when you have ISOd their game from Age of Legends and GnD.

 

Yep. I will get right on that.

A Month from now I will remember nothing about the game we just finished. Not your alignment or mine, not the theme, not any techniques I discovered, nothing. HOW DO PEOPLE EVEN DO THAT?

 

Lol, I remember my first 8 games or so really clearly, then I have over a years worth of games I remember almost nothing about, and it's probably only the past 6 months of games I can remember now :(

[Calder]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:54 PM, cory caboose said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:50 PM, Calder said:

I think there is a far bigger problem than the in-game volume. The heavy meta read nature of the forum.

 

 

I think this is basically always a "thing" when you have a relatively static player-base that isn't particularly large.

 

People use meta reads because they work for some people and are an effective tool; you can't really do anything about that, I think.

Agreed on there always being a metagame. You cant avoid that without constant change. Also people are welcome to use it as a driving force of their game. And it unbelievably is on this site. It is the #1 time sink imo on here.

 

My point is that you could cut the posting by 30% and the effect would still be minimal, bc half the people in a game are never going to re-read old threads when asked in their current game.

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:58 PM, Nynaeve said:

I think if a mod asks the players to try not to overdo post counts.... most players would be able to comply within their own range.... without the need to actually set limitations. At least I know I can.

I find that the less I post the more people try and lynch me. So id tell the mod they were influencing the game.

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:01 PM, BFG said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:59 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Calder said:

Its like thank god we are down to 10 pages a day. So much easier to keep up with now.

 

Next post = Come back at me when you have ISOd their game from Age of Legends and GnD.

 

Yep. I will get right on that.

A Month from now I will remember nothing about the game we just finished. Not your alignment or mine, not the theme, not any techniques I discovered, nothing. HOW DO PEOPLE EVEN DO THAT?

Lol, I remember my first 8 games or so really clearly, then I have over a years worth of games I remember almost nothing about, and it's probably only the past 6 months of games I can remember now :(

Thats awesome =) I know my first three, ones where I was a bamf, ones where I was a douche, and the most recent 2-3 usually.

 

I remember everything I mod though.

[Cory Caboose]

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:00 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:54 PM, cory caboose said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:50 PM, Calder said:

I think there is a far bigger problem than the in-game volume. The heavy meta read nature of the forum.

 

I think this is basically always a "thing" when you have a relatively static player-base that isn't particularly large.

 

People use meta reads because they work for some people and are an effective tool; you can't really do anything about that, I think.

 

 

I dunno, we used to have the same 15-20 people playing here all the time and we still didn't delve too much into meta reading.  I think that is more of the trend mafia has seemed to take over the past handful of years.

 

Well yeah, the game has definitely changed.

 

But how do you say "you can't use meta"?

 

Like, I'm in a game with Tina and I know her alignment because I know her, do I have to pretend to not have that read because it's not supported by something other than that?

[Verbal32]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:49 PM, BFG said:

We used to have a much wider player base... why did people stop playing?

 

Multiple reasons:

 

1) they left the site for reasons not related to mafia

 

2) they burnt out on playing all the time and never came back to mafia in general

 

3) they had an issue with a particular player and just left the site

 

4) their life situation became more complicated for whatever reason(s), and they couldn't dedicate the time anymore

[Nynaeve]

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:01 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:58 PM, Nynaeve said:

I think if a mod asks the players to try not to overdo post counts.... most players would be able to comply within their own range.... without the need to actually set limitations. At least I know I can.

I find that the less I post the more people try and lynch me. So id tell the mod they were influencing the game.

 

 

To me it seems that setting post limitation would be the same thing. ie it would influence high volume players play because a lot of times their insistence is key in reading them. But that wasn't my point.

 

My point is that I think (or rather hope) we'e all mature enough to be able to respect a request to try to ease up a bit... instead of having an X number of posts per day forced on us.

[Nynaeve]

I'm just saying it doesn't have to be so structured.

[alannalynn]

  Quote

 

Like, I'm in a game with Tina and I know her alignment because I know her, do I have to pretend to not have that read because it's not supported by something other than that?

Either ignore the read or substantiate it. If it involves meta, obviously you have to ignore it.

[Lenlo]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:59 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Calder said:

Its like thank god we are down to 10 pages a day. So much easier to keep up with now.

 

Next post = Come back at me when you have ISOd their game from Age of Legends and GnD.

 

Yep. I will get right on that.

A Month from now I will remember nothing about the game we just finished. Not your alignment or mine, not the theme, not any techniques I discovered, nothing. HOW DO PEOPLE EVEN DO THAT?

 

I agree. I barely remember my own alignment from a game, not to mention everyone elses. Theres a reason I keep a record of games ive played in, because otherwise I just wont remember.

[Calder]

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:59 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:52 PM, Calder said:

Its like thank god we are down to 10 pages a day. So much easier to keep up with now.

Next post = Come back at me when you have ISOd their game from Age of Legends and GnD.

Yep. I will get right on that.

A Month from now I will remember nothing about the game we just finished. Not your alignment or mine, not the theme, not any techniques I discovered, nothing. HOW DO PEOPLE EVEN DO THAT?

My wife accuses me of having close to a photographic memory. So I do remember that stuff usually. But, I dont really use it bc I dont understand on an inherent level how people get caught on meta.

 

I love meta being used personally bc it is the easiest thing in the world to game. Minute game tweaks when you notice that someone catches something and over time your impervious.

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:03 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 3/17/2016 at 6:49 PM, BFG said:

We used to have a much wider player base... why did people stop playing?

Multiple reasons:

 

1) they left the site for reasons not related to mafia

 

2) they burnt out on playing all the time and never came back to mafia in general

 

3) they had an issue with a particular player and just left the site

 

4) their life situation became more complicated for whatever reason(s), and they couldn't dedicate the time anymore

Number 3 and I are courting

[Cory Caboose]

I remember everything that has ever happened in any Mafia game ever

 

And literally nothing else

 

Where are my keys

[Darthe]

  On 3/17/2016 at 7:05 PM, alannalynn said:

 

  Quote

Like, I'm in a game with Tina and I know her alignment because I know her, do I have to pretend to not have that read because it's not supported by something other than that?

Either ignore the read or substantiate it. If it involves meta, obviously you have to ignore it.

That's not really optimal. Meta is part of the game.