Rand & Galad brothers ?? say it aint so

[Narishma]

OK Galad's Mother left his Paps and ran off.This Red head woman shows up in the Waste Saying she left her Husband and son.Rand and Galad Hates each Others Guts.The time line is right.Could it be......or is it just me

[Fryn]

Yup Rand and Galad are half brothers. Just be glad that Elyane and Rand aren't closely related :oops:

 

Rand and Galad don't really hate each others guts. Gawyn hates Rand and mainly because he thinks Rand killed Morgase. Galad just always does the "right thing" which can make it appear as if he doesn't like Rand. When push comes to shove he will follow the dragon Reborn in the Last Battle because it is the "right thing" to do as well. The last scene we see of Galad is his leading teh white cloaks to anyone that will fight teh Seachan which is likely Aes Sedai or the Dragon Reborn.

[Kaznen]

Rand all but said that in LoC when he realised Tigraine was his mother.

 

What book are you on?

[DragonSpawn]

Meh I just hope that Galad puts his claim for Cairhien forth, which has more merit then Elaynes claim.

Would be nice to see who Rand would support. His brother or his lover.

[Thor]

That depends if Rand can ignore the feel of Elayne's ...ugh.... wrath.

[Guest Barmacral]

Based on how Galad's character has developed throughout the series... do you really want to see Galad on any throne?

 

Oh and, the only reason that Galad has more claim than Elayne is because he's older than Elayne. They both had the same father, and an Andoran mother.

[DragonSpawn]

Based on how Galad's character has developed throughout the series... do you really want to see Galad on any throne?

 

Oh and' date=' the only reason that Galad has more claim than Elayne is because he's older than Elayne. They both had the same father, and an Andoran mother.[/quote']

 

Yes, he can successfully lead men, inspire hope at times of chaos and demise. He stands for justice and what is right, he will not tolerate corruption or shady dealings. He is a powerful warrior. Isn't he the archetype of what a King should be?

 

Yes, so you agree by right and law the throne of Cairhien is Galad's until he openly renounces it. Until then Elayne is a usurper. And since Cairhien doesn't have sexist succession laws such as Andor, Galad being the elder of the siblings is before Elayne in the line of succession.

 

And as you said, we know that Galad will always fight for what is right. So he will of course not allow someone to usurp his rightful throne?

This brings us to an interesting scenario. Rand makes peace with the Seanchan. So then Galad is left with an army, he may decide to return to his paternal homeland of Cairhien in an attempt to bring back stability, peace and take his rightful place as King.

 

However Rand wants Elayne to be the ruler of Cairhien. And Elayne is Rand's lover and mother of his children. However Galad is Rand's closest living relative, being his half-brother. So will he support his own blood or his love if the fight came for the succession?

 

Or will RJ pull a hypocritical move and never let it come to that confrontation, seeing as Galad is so stingy about justice and what is right, I find it hard to believe he would allow such an injustice against himself. Also if Galad gets together with Berelaine, you can bet she will try to maneuver him to grab Cairhien to increase their power.

 

This brings us to the next matter. How would Rand deal with Galad, if Galad used his army of whitecloaks, and probably turncoat nobles to beat Elayne's forces out of Cairhien?

Would he commit what is even today considerred one of the dirtiest and despicable crimes a human can commit, fratricide?

Or will RJ simply solve the matter by making Galad die in the last battle?

[Thor]

Oh, yes I didn't think of that. I just thought that Galad will kill Gawyn, but now you say that, maybe they will kill each other.

[Kaznen]

Due to Elayne not really wanting to be Queen of Carahien AND Andor I don't think it would be a problem.

 

But, if anyone in the Damodred Household has a ligitement claim it is probally their cousin Rand outlawed and is now planning to marry Darlin.

[Guest cwestervelt]

OK Galad's Mother left his Paps and ran off.This Red head woman shows up in the Waste Saying she left her Husband and son.Rand and Galad Hates each Others Guts.The time line is right.Could it be......or is it just me

 

Rand and Galad do not hate eachothers guts. They are, for all intents and purposes, unaware of eachother on a personal level. The worst that can be said is that they are indifferent towards eachother.

 

If you meant Rand and Gawyn hate eachothers guts, it is a one way enmity. Rand has no animosity towards Gawyn and is saddened that Gawyn believes Rand guilty of killing Morgase.

[bradg2010]

Yes, so you agree by right and law the throne of Cairhien is Galad's until he openly renounces it. Until then Elayne is a usurper. And since Cairhien doesn't have sexist succession laws such as Andor, Galad being the elder of the siblings is before Elayne in the line of succession.

And as you said, we know that Galad will always fight for what is right. So he will of course not allow someone to usurp his rightful throne?

This brings us to an interesting scenario. Rand makes peace with the Seanchan. So then Galad is left with an army, he may decide to return to his paternal homeland of Cairhien in an attempt to bring back stability, peace and take his rightful place as King.

 

I'm not sure Galad has more right to the throne of Cairhien than Elayne. The throne was last held by house Riatin or in a way Saighan, when Colavere conspired to take the throne though that may not count. Either way House Damodred was ousted from the throne. In addition Galad isn't even high seat of house damodred while Elayne is High seat of Trakand and so could at least make a claim. Galad inherited neither a seat in house Damodred nor the throne from his father. And even if he had he likely gave up that claim either by staying in Andor or by joining the Whitecloaks. Of course if Galad ended up wanting the throne and Elayne does not then Rand could conceivably give him the throne at Elaynes urging.

[Narishma]

It seems that i was wrong in saying they hate eah others guts.(got a bit carried away).But still it seems that galad and rand has to cross paths in the final bk, or maybe it will be the typical brother fights brother for the love of a woman.it will be interesting to see how this works out. it seems that egwene still has feelings for galad

[Telcar]

DragonSpawn

 

This brings us to the next matter. How would Rand deal with Galad, if Galad used his army of whitecloaks, and probably turncoat nobles to beat Elayne's forces out of Cairhien?

 

Well if I remember correctly Galad's "army" of whitecloaks isn't very big. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was around 8000 men? Even adding turncoat nobles to his force he can hardly match Elayne who has around 60000 men?

 

But this is hardly relevant :P I think Galad would rather join Elayne than fight her.

[DragonSpawn]

DragonSpawn

 

This brings us to the next matter. How would Rand deal with Galad' date=' if Galad used his army of whitecloaks, and probably turncoat nobles to beat Elayne's forces out of Cairhien?[/quote']

 

Well if I remember correctly Galad's "army" of whitecloaks isn't very big. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was around 8000 men? Even adding turncoat nobles to his force he can hardly match Elayne who has around 60000 men?

 

But this is hardly relevant :P I think Galad would rather join Elayne than fight her.

 

Would rather doesn't mean much to Galad if he sees her actions as wrong. Remember he puts the law above everything even his own family.

 

Galad may have 8000. However he is a battlehardened talented leader. Elayne is an arguably immature regent who always has bouts of insecurity about her position. Birgitte is no general either. Also the only Andoran general is up north by Tar Valon.

 

Andor is already in a civil war. Most nobles hate the family Trakand, as we can see by the huge support Arymilla started off with. Morgase is despised by the common people, and Elayne's Aes Sedai and Rand connections are seen as disconcerting.

Remember Trakand has no real dynasty on the throne of Andor. Trakand won the throne by killing off the other houses in the fight for the throne, because the ruling house didn't have an eligible female left.

 

I would say, many nobles would use the unrest Galad's army would cause to make more anarchy. Putting Elayne back to the beginning.

 

But of course Elayne could be smart and forsake any claims to the Cairhienen throne, and let Galad deal with the problem of unifying the houses under his Damodred banner.

 

 

 

I have another interesting thought though. Cairhien's succession laws aren't sexist, for Cairhien the oldest child is the next King/Queen period.

So what if Elayne's eldest twin is male and the younger female. The male would be seen as the next king in Cairhien, however in Caemlyn he cannot be ruler because he is a man. SO naturally the nations would split again.

Now you can say the Cairhienen succession laws could be changed to suit those of Andor. However as we know Cairhienen nobles, many will anyway adhere to tradition and raise the son as the king and use him as a figurehead for rebellion. Causing either a bloody civil war or a split nation with sibling regents and different lines again.

[bradg2010]

Quote:

Telcar

"Well if I remember correctly Galad's "army" of whitecloaks isn't very big. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was around 8000 men? Even adding turncoat nobles to his force he can hardly match Elayne who has around 60000 men?

But this is hardly relevant Razz I think Galad would rather join Elayne than fight her."

 

Dragonspawn

" Would rather doesn't mean much to Galad if he sees her actions as wrong. Remember he puts the law above everything even his own family. "

 

Galad always does what is right which doesn't have to be what the laws says. By law as a Whitecloak when he discovered Elayne and Nynaeve he should have turned them in. But it was his duty as he saw it to protect Elayne, his half-sister, as well. He put Elayne first because he felt that was right.

 

DragonSpawn

" Galad may have 8000. However he is a battlehardened talented leader. Elayne is an arguably immature regent who always has bouts of insecurity about her position. Birgitte is no general either. Also the only Andoran general is up north by Tar Valon.

Andor is already in a civil war. Most nobles hate the family Trakand, as we can see by the huge support Arymilla started off with. Morgase is despised by the common people, and Elayne's Aes Sedai and Rand connections are seen as disconcerting.

Remember Trakand has no real dynasty on the throne of Andor. Trakand won the throne by killing off the other houses in the fight for the throne, because the ruling house didn't have an eligible female left."[/i]

 

I'll admit Elayne gets on my nerves as well but she is a talented leader. She won the throne of Andor even after all the damage Rahvin did. Dyelin, Luan, and Abelle are 3 of the most powerful houses and stood for Elayne on their own. Most of those who stood for Arymilla originally and switched to Elayne (Lir, Karind, and some of the other lesser houses) wouldn't dream of opposing her again. In a succession they could support whomever they wanted, now that Elayne has the thrown if they tried something it would be rebellion. And as you say they know Elayne has some connections to Rand. They're much too cowardly too try anything of the sort. Arathelle, Pelivar, and Aemlyn will continue to support Elayne because of Dyelin. The majority of the nobles are well under control. Trakand has the more right to the throne than anyone else. Tigraine ran off so a new queen had to be chose. Yes there was a succession but Morgase and House Trakand gained the most support.

 

DragonSpawn:

"I would say, many nobles would use the unrest Galad's army would cause to make more anarchy. Putting Elayne back to the beginning.

 

But of course Elayne could be smart and forsake any claims to the Cairhienen throne, and let Galad deal with the problem of unifying the houses under his Damodred banner."

 

I don't think Elayne is foolish enough to allow the nobles to do that now that she has at least some control over them. They want to see andor whole again. OK i don't see any problem with Galad having the throne of Cairhien but i doubt he would do any such thing or at least succeed without Rand's approval which wouldn't be given without Elayne's. Another thing is that Galad hasn't really been part of house Damodred recently. Caraline is the head of that house.

 

DragonSpawn:

"I have another interesting thought though. Cairhien's succession laws aren't sexist, for Cairhien the oldest child is the next King/Queen period.

So what if Elayne's eldest twin is male and the younger female. The male would be seen as the next king in Cairhien, however in Caemlyn he cannot be ruler because he is a man. SO naturally the nations would split again.

Now you can say the Cairhienen succession laws could be changed to suit those of Andor. However as we know Cairhienen nobles, many will anyway adhere to tradition and raise the son as the king and use him as a figurehead for rebellion. Causing either a bloody civil war or a split nation with sibling regents and different lines again."

 

YES Cairhien laws aren't sexist but since Galad's father wasn't the last ruler Galad could hardly ride in claiming that the throne is his right. I can see some of the nobles supporting him but once more without Rand's approval I doubt they would after they saw how he dealt with Colavere, not to mention many suspect he dispersed and destroyed the rebels following Caraline. This was only caused by him indirectly as miasma are drawn to Ta'veren. Also in your Elayne twins example I'm pretty sure that if Elayne did control Cairhien then, though the city of Caihien would continue to be very influential, it would become part of Andor and Andor is always ruled by a queen. So yes it's possible that in AMOL Galad becomes king of Cairhien to lead them to Tarmon Gaidin with Rand's consent. I just don't see Galad riding in with 8000 whitecloaks claiming the throne is his and all the nobles agreeing about it.

[DragonSpawn]

Quote:

Telcar

"Well if I remember correctly Galad's "army" of whitecloaks isn't very big. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was around 8000 men? Even adding turncoat nobles to his force he can hardly match Elayne who has around 60000 men?

But this is hardly relevant Razz I think Galad would rather join Elayne than fight her."

 

Dragonspawn

" Would rather doesn't mean much to Galad if he sees her actions as wrong. Remember he puts the law above everything even his own family. "

 

Galad always does what is right which doesn't have to be what the laws says. By law as a Whitecloak when he discovered Elayne and Nynaeve he should have turned them in. But it was his duty as he saw it to protect Elayne' date=' his half-sister, as well. He put Elayne first because he felt that was right.[/size']

 

DragonSpawn

" Galad may have 8000. However he is a battlehardened talented leader. Elayne is an arguably immature regent who always has bouts of insecurity about her position. Birgitte is no general either. Also the only Andoran general is up north by Tar Valon.

Andor is already in a civil war. Most nobles hate the family Trakand, as we can see by the huge support Arymilla started off with. Morgase is despised by the common people, and Elayne's Aes Sedai and Rand connections are seen as disconcerting.

Remember Trakand has no real dynasty on the throne of Andor. Trakand won the throne by killing off the other houses in the fight for the throne, because the ruling house didn't have an eligible female left."[/i]

 

I'll admit Elayne gets on my nerves as well but she is a talented leader. She won the throne of Andor even after all the damage Rahvin did. Dyelin, Luan, and Abelle are 3 of the most powerful houses and stood for Elayne on their own. Most of those who stood for Arymilla originally and switched to Elayne (Lir, Karind, and some of the other lesser houses) wouldn't dream of opposing her again. In a succession they could support whomever they wanted, now that Elayne has the thrown if they tried something it would be rebellion. And as you say they know Elayne has some connections to Rand. They're much too cowardly too try anything of the sort. Arathelle, Pelivar, and Aemlyn will continue to support Elayne because of Dyelin. The majority of the nobles are well under control. Trakand has the more right to the throne than anyone else. Tigraine ran off so a new queen had to be chose. Yes there was a succession but Morgase and House Trakand gained the most support.

 

DragonSpawn:

"I would say, many nobles would use the unrest Galad's army would cause to make more anarchy. Putting Elayne back to the beginning.

 

But of course Elayne could be smart and forsake any claims to the Cairhienen throne, and let Galad deal with the problem of unifying the houses under his Damodred banner."

 

I don't think Elayne is foolish enough to allow the nobles to do that now that she has at least some control over them. They want to see andor whole again. OK i don't see any problem with Galad having the throne of Cairhien but i doubt he would do any such thing or at least succeed without Rand's approval which wouldn't be given without Elayne's. Another thing is that Galad hasn't really been part of house Damodred recently. Caraline is the head of that house.

 

DragonSpawn:

"I have another interesting thought though. Cairhien's succession laws aren't sexist, for Cairhien the oldest child is the next King/Queen period.

So what if Elayne's eldest twin is male and the younger female. The male would be seen as the next king in Cairhien, however in Caemlyn he cannot be ruler because he is a man. SO naturally the nations would split again.

Now you can say the Cairhienen succession laws could be changed to suit those of Andor. However as we know Cairhienen nobles, many will anyway adhere to tradition and raise the son as the king and use him as a figurehead for rebellion. Causing either a bloody civil war or a split nation with sibling regents and different lines again."

 

YES Cairhien laws aren't sexist but since Galad's father wasn't the last ruler Galad could hardly ride in claiming that the throne is his right. I can see some of the nobles supporting him but once more without Rand's approval I doubt they would after they saw how he dealt with Colavere, not to mention many suspect he dispersed and destroyed the rebels following Caraline. This was only caused by him indirectly as miasma are drawn to Ta'veren. Also in your Elayne twins example I'm pretty sure that if Elayne did control Cairhien then, though the city of Caihien would continue to be very influential, it would become part of Andor and Andor is always ruled by a queen. So yes it's possible that in AMOL Galad becomes king of Cairhien to lead them to Tarmon Gaidin with Rand's consent. I just don't see Galad riding in with 8000 whitecloaks claiming the throne is his and all the nobles agreeing about it.

 

 

All of it makes sense. However Cairhienens are among the proudest and most vain of the Randlanders. Also they are mentioned even by the Aeil to be one of the most ancient nations.

Cairhien exists I believe since long times, while Andor is a younger state rising out of the ashes of Manatheren.

For them their traditions are seen as holy. And Rand the dragon reborn will no longer be alive when the time for succession comes, and hence his threats and regent choosing won't apply.

For them the eldest of the house is the next regent period. So most houses would probably support the eldest child, especially if this elder child is a son and has ambitions he would seize the opportunity and become regent of Cairhien. Of course if the eldest child is a daughter there will be no problem.

However we know how vain Cairhienens are especially the nobles. Remember how Elayne made such a point of not having any Andoran soldiers on Cairhienen soil in fear of causing a fullscale inflagration against her before she even raised her claim. Will they just accept outlandish laws that have and never had any merit in their own soceity and most nobles will see as absurd?

 

Also if I remember reading rightly, Cairhien is a bigger city then Caemlyn. Caemlyn is described as more beautiful, however Cairhien is bigger. Why should the bigger and older city be put in second place? The city with the more majestic palaces (due to the extravagance of Cairhienen nobles again)?

[bradg2010]

Yes I see your point about all the difficulties that would emerge if in fact Cairhien and Andor merged. And your definitely right about the Cairhiens attitudes when Rand is dead i was mainly addressing the Galad claims Cairhien before Tarmon Gaidin issue, once Rand is gone who knows what will happen in Cairhien or anywhere.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Cairhien exists I believe since long times, while Andor is a younger state rising out of the ashes of Manatheren.

 

Incorrect. Andor was the first nation to emerge from Hawkwing's Empire during the War of Hundred Years, and is the oldest nation of all the nations currently extant in Randland. It was founded by Ishara who was the daughter of the governor of the province of Andor under Hawkwing. It came into existence over a thousand years after the fall of Manetheren, which took place during the Trolloc Wars.

 

Cairhien did not come to be an independent nation until the end of the War of the Hundred Years, just over a hundred years after Andor was founded. For all intents and purposes, they are about the same age, as nations. Cairhien, however, had lost over half of its original territory even before the beginning of The Eye of the World. It has been a nation in decline for centuries.

 

(See the BWB, p. 234, 256)

 

Will they just accept outlandish laws that have and never had any merit in their own soceity and most nobles will see as absurd?

 

Actually, yes. The Cairhienin are in the process of changing their entire national identity, since they have now had their country ground into dog meat twice in 25 years.

 

After what Laman did, I don't think the Cairhienin are going to want any Damodred near the throne. The Damodreds were so bad Moiraine chose not to use her family name. Galad has no ambition to be king, and there are enough other candidates out there that if Cairhien and Galad both survive Tarmon Gaidon, no one is going to force Galad to become King.

[DragonSpawn]

Cairhien exists I believe since long times' date=' while Andor is a younger state rising out of the ashes of Manatheren.

[/quote']

 

Incorrect. Andor was the first nation to emerge from Hawkwing's Empire during the War of Hundred Years, and is the oldest nation of all the nations currently extant in Randland. It was founded by Ishara who was the daughter of the governor of the province of Andor under Hawkwing. It came into existence over a thousand years after the fall of Manetheren, which took place during the Trolloc Wars.

 

Cairhien did not come to be an independent nation until the end of the War of the Hundred Years, just over a hundred years after Andor was founded. For all intents and purposes, they are about the same age, as nations. Cairhien, however, had lost over half of its original territory even before the beginning of The Eye of the World. It has been a nation in decline for centuries.

 

(See the BWB, p. 234, 256)

 

Will they just accept outlandish laws that have and never had any merit in their own soceity and most nobles will see as absurd?

 

Actually, yes. The Cairhienin are in the process of changing their entire national identity, since they have now had their country ground into dog meat twice in 25 years.

 

After what Laman did, I don't think the Cairhienin are going to want any Damodred near the throne. The Damodreds were so bad Moiraine chose not to use her family name. Galad has no ambition to be king, and there are enough other candidates out there that if Cairhien and Galad both survive Tarmon Gaidon, no one is going to force Galad to become King.

 

 

Again about Galad not getting the throne is reasonable. I don't dispute that.

 

If I remember right, didn't one of the Aeil say that the reason they gave Cairhien all the special privileges was that the Cairhienens were long ago the one people to have helped them.

This means that they stay reasonably the same. There was no Andor before Hawkwing, but do we know if there was no Cairhien before Hawkwing? After all it could have been an incorporated Kingdom that split itself off to it's former position again after Hawkwing died. The way, Gaul I believe spoke of them. It seemed they were recognisably the same people.

 

 

Also your analysis about the Cairhienens, they are a people in change? Are you reading the same book I am reading? The Cairhienens are some of the biggest stuck up arrogant SOB's in the book. Rand merely changes one thing, that a noble can no longer killed a commoner and go away unpunished and he was a full scale rebellion, intrigues and a bigger headache then imaginable for something that small. And you seriously think they are just going to allow a young upstart queen, from a nation they had been fighting for the longest time to just change their Royal succession laws?

The minute Rand is dead, there will probably be calls for ousting Elayne already. She is not Cairhienen not by a long stretch, not in attitude and not by culture. And when she then tries to come with her foreign Andoran troops to quell the rebellion she will make even more enemies of before neutral nobles.

Like I said they will merely use the sexist and backwards succession laws of Andor as an excuse and claim the eldest child ruler. If Elayne now has male twins, or an elder male then ruin is predestined. Or what if Elayne only has male children? Her oldest male child is for Cairhien the natural and justified new ruler while in Andor it would be Elayne's nearest female relative.

The main problem in fusing Andor and Cairhien is Andors backwards succession laws. If Andor allows kings, I see a halfway realistic chance of keeping the two nations in one piece after they joined. After all it is easier to allow something new to a nation then take away something from a nation that is as old as the nation itself. The right of the oldest male head of the house to take the throne.

 

Andor is also a land in recession that is not a purely Cairhienen phenomena, that is the reason why the Two Rivers is virtually it's own territory in all but name. Various other parts of Andor probably as well.

[Hero of Satsuma]

Rand merely changes one thing, that a noble can no longer killed a commoner and go away unpunished

 

I believe this took place in Tear, not Cairhien.

 

The Aiel gave the tree to descendants of the those that gave them water on their journey during the breaking, not to Cairhienens specifically, because there was no Cairhien before Hawkwing.

[baalzamon]

i still think that its amazing that no one ha mentioned Morraine. She has the biggest claim to the throne of cairhien and she certainly isnt out of the picture just yet. Maybe good old auntie will come in and seperate the to fighting brothers. then take the throne.(thinks fondly back to family reunions). Also, am i the only one who finds all the Aes Sedai Ties to galad ironic, his Sis is one, one half bro can channel the other was training to be a warder. Both real mom and adopted mom's trained by them. Then he joins the one cult that hates all Aes Sedai.

[DragonSpawn]

i still think that its amazing that no one ha mentioned Morraine. She has the biggest claim to the throne of cairhien and she certainly isnt out of the picture just yet. Maybe good old auntie will come in and seperate the to fighting brothers. then take the throne.(thinks fondly back to family reunions). Also' date=' am i the only one who finds all the Aes Sedai Ties to galad ironic, his Sis is one, one half bro can channel the other was training to be a warder. Both real mom and adopted mom's trained by them. Then he joins the one cult that hates all Aes Sedai.[/quote']

 

Yes I find it sort of ironic. It would fit more to Gawyn the younger, weaker brother. Galad is always described as the beautiful, strong, talented, selfless and beloved. Even Elayne betray envy of him to Nynaeve.

[bradg2010]

DragonSpawn

"Also your analysis about the Cairhienens, they are a people in change? Are you reading the same book I am reading? The Cairhienens are some of the biggest stuck up arrogant SOB's in the book. Rand merely changes one thing, that a noble can no longer killed a commoner and go away unpunished and he was a full scale rebellion, intrigues and a bigger headache then imaginable for something that small. And you seriously think they are just going to allow a young upstart queen, from a nation they had been fighting for the longest time to just change their Royal succession laws?"

 

 

Actually RAW is right, the Cairhiens are willing to change. Just look at all the minor nobles and commoners who have started to emulate the Aiel. Also, Hero of Satsuma, Rand would put the law that nobles can't just kill commoners in any place that did allow that sort of thing. I think the reason the books point it out in tear is because it was the worst there. Andor under Morgase certainly wouldn't allow that and he did do a similar thing in Cairhien when he told the Aiel any oathbreaker(Cairhien) that is killed for no reason other than a grudge will be hung. This did happen to Mangin(i think that was his name).

DragonSpawn

"The minute Rand is dead, there will probably be calls for ousting Elayne already. She is not Cairhienen not by a long stretch, not in attitude and not by culture. And when she then tries to come with her foreign Andoran troops to quell the rebellion she will make even more enemies of before neutral nobles.

Like I said they will merely use the sexist and backwards succession laws of Andor as an excuse and claim the eldest child ruler. If Elayne now has male twins, or an elder male then ruin is predestined. Or what if Elayne only has male children? Her oldest male child is for Cairhien the natural and justified new ruler while in Andor it would be Elayne's nearest female relative."

 

 

I think that it all comes down to if Elayne does a good job. The commoners will like Elayne if she continues to take care of them as Rand has tried to do, and she will. As for the nobles she will still have quite a bit of backing. Dobraine and Caraline will certainly back her even after Rand is gone and they are the heads of 2 of the most powerful houses. Now Caraline will be marrying Darlin who rules tear so I don't know if she'll continue to be the head of house Damodred but yeah... Not to mention she will undoubtedly have the full fledged support of the white tower which will weigh quite a bit with any of the nobles. Darlin in tear would support her though that probably doesn't count for much to any Cairhien nobles unless they're worrying about Tear-Cairhien relationships which they very well may be since the seanchan will likely still be a problem in the world. Basically I think many Cairhien will consider Elayne a blessing with her strong connections to the White Tower, Tear, The Borderlands(Bashere and Rands othe allies up there), the Aiel(whats left of them, and Andor(obviously). If the world is going to be in great battles Elayne is fairly well connected.

 

DragonSpawn

"The main problem in fusing Andor and Cairhien is Andors backwards succession laws. If Andor allows kings, I see a halfway realistic chance of keeping the two nations in one piece after they joined. After all it is easier to allow something new to a nation then take away something from a nation that is as old as the nation itself. The right of the oldest male head of the house to take the throne."

 

No the main problem is the sheer size of the resulting nation. Assuming the seanchan are still running amuck it will be very difficult to defend all the people. If Elayne does a good job doing this Cairhien nobles will follow her and likely fall in with andors laws of succession.

 

 

Ba'alzamon

"i still think that its amazing that no one ha mentioned Morraine. She has the biggest claim to the throne of cairhien and she certainly isnt out of the picture just yet."

 

No Moraine does not have the biggest claim to the throne of Cairhien. Unlike Elayne she gave up her position in house Damodred when she became Aes Sedai. Also as I said before the Damodreds ruled in the past, it isn't like she was the daughter of the last king of Cairhien or something. Also RAW makes another good point here along the line of why would the Cairhien want another Damodred on the throne after what Laman did. Moraine forsook her family.

[StudentJoe]

i still think that its amazing that no one ha mentioned Morraine. She has the biggest claim to the throne of cairhien and she certainly isnt out of the picture just yet. Maybe good old auntie will come in and seperate the to fighting brothers. then take the throne.(thinks fondly back to family reunions). Also' date=' am i the only one who finds all the Aes Sedai Ties to galad ironic, his Sis is one, one half bro can channel the other was training to be a warder. Both real mom and adopted mom's trained by them. Then he joins the one cult that hates all Aes Sedai.[/quote']

 

She ran away once before when the tower wanted to put her on the thrown. (New Spring) So I dont see Morraine wanting the thrown

[DragonSpawn]

DragonSpawn

"Also your analysis about the Cairhienens' date=' they are a people in change? Are you reading the same book I am reading? The Cairhienens are some of the biggest stuck up arrogant SOB's in the book. Rand merely changes one thing, that a noble can no longer killed a commoner and go away unpunished and he was a full scale rebellion, intrigues and a bigger headache then imaginable for something that small. And you seriously think they are just going to allow a young upstart queen, from a nation they had been fighting for the longest time to just change their Royal succession laws?"[/i']

 

 

Actually RAW is right, the Cairhiens are willing to change. Just look at all the minor nobles and commoners who have started to emulate the Aiel. Also, Hero of Satsuma, Rand would put the law that nobles can't just kill commoners in any place that did allow that sort of thing. I think the reason the books point it out in tear is because it was the worst there. Andor under Morgase certainly wouldn't allow that and he did do a similar thing in Cairhien when he told the Aiel any oathbreaker(Cairhien) that is killed for no reason other than a grudge will be hung. This did happen to Mangin(i think that was his name).

DragonSpawn

"The minute Rand is dead, there will probably be calls for ousting Elayne already. She is not Cairhienen not by a long stretch, not in attitude and not by culture. And when she then tries to come with her foreign Andoran troops to quell the rebellion she will make even more enemies of before neutral nobles.

Like I said they will merely use the sexist and backwards succession laws of Andor as an excuse and claim the eldest child ruler. If Elayne now has male twins, or an elder male then ruin is predestined. Or what if Elayne only has male children? Her oldest male child is for Cairhien the natural and justified new ruler while in Andor it would be Elayne's nearest female relative."

 

 

I think that it all comes down to if Elayne does a good job. The commoners will like Elayne if she continues to take care of them as Rand has tried to do, and she will. As for the nobles she will still have quite a bit of backing. Dobraine and Caraline will certainly back her even after Rand is gone and they are the heads of 2 of the most powerful houses. Now Caraline will be marrying Darlin who rules tear so I don't know if she'll continue to be the head of house Damodred but yeah... Not to mention she will undoubtedly have the full fledged support of the white tower which will weigh quite a bit with any of the nobles. Darlin in tear would support her though that probably doesn't count for much to any Cairhien nobles unless they're worrying about Tear-Cairhien relationships which they very well may be since the seanchan will likely still be a problem in the world. Basically I think many Cairhien will consider Elayne a blessing with her strong connections to the White Tower, Tear, The Borderlands(Bashere and Rands othe allies up there), the Aiel(whats left of them, and Andor(obviously). If the world is going to be in great battles Elayne is fairly well connected.

 

DragonSpawn

"The main problem in fusing Andor and Cairhien is Andors backwards succession laws. If Andor allows kings, I see a halfway realistic chance of keeping the two nations in one piece after they joined. After all it is easier to allow something new to a nation then take away something from a nation that is as old as the nation itself. The right of the oldest male head of the house to take the throne."

 

No the main problem is the sheer size of the resulting nation. Assuming the seanchan are still running amuck it will be very difficult to defend all the people. If Elayne does a good job doing this Cairhien nobles will follow her and likely fall in with andors laws of succession.

 

 

Ba'alzamon

"i still think that its amazing that no one ha mentioned Morraine. She has the biggest claim to the throne of cairhien and she certainly isnt out of the picture just yet."

 

No Moraine does not have the biggest claim to the throne of Cairhien. Unlike Elayne she gave up her position in house Damodred when she became Aes Sedai. Also as I said before the Damodreds ruled in the past, it isn't like she was the daughter of the last king of Cairhien or something. Also RAW makes another good point here along the line of why would the Cairhien want another Damodred on the throne after what Laman did. Moraine forsook her family.

 

All the Cairhienen houses will fall in line with Andor's succession laws? And why exactly should they do that? They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. By accepting these laws every house immediatly cuts it's chances for the throne in half, and also if the house is run by a male and his heir is a male their house is immediatly dissadvantaged for no legitimate reason.

I see the Cairhienen's as evident as they made their love for war, i.e even look at the Cairhienen nobles with Mat. I doubt they will succumb their birthrights to a foreign nation which shares very little with their culture and ideaology.

This is just realistically seen. As I said before it is easier to give someone a new right (i.e Andor adopting Cairhienen succession law that anyone may become Ruler), then take away the right of someone (i.e forbid all male heads of houses from ever having a legitimate claim on the throne of their homecountry again).

I have no idea how RJ wishes to paint it in a rosy dosy picture of how the two nations will be joined in a long and peaceful era under just and wonderful rulers. When there is such an eyesore present from the start.

Also what claim does Elayne have on the Cairhienen throne? Is she the head of a Cairhienen house? Trakand is an Andoran not Cairhienen house, and Damodred has a third person as it's head. So under what pretext other then, because the Dragon Reborn wants it does she lay claim on the nation? What will the nobles do once Rand dies, undue all they were forced to accept under his dictatorship of terms, including forcing Elayne to choose between Andor or Cairhien?