Did *end spoilers* get his wish?

[LostPages]

I was talking in an IRC group about some of the things we liked and disliked about the final book and ending sequences, and I brought up why I liked the character of Moridin. But that also left me wondering...

 

Did Moridin get a personal victory when Rand won?

 

From what I recall (it's been a few years since I read the books), Moridin saw the cycle as a prison for him, and wanted the Shadow to win purely to escape that more than caring about who was right/wrong. Did Rand release Moridin from the cycle, or is he going to be reborn like he claims he always was to face the Dragon in every Turn?

[jack of shadows]

"did moridin get a personal victory when rand won?"

NO,HE DIDN'T.rand nailed it when he said to moridin:"-an end to all things-

is the only release you'll ever know.you'd rather not exist than continue to be

you.you must know that he will not release you.not ever.not you."

moridin died a few hours after the last battle ended and was cremated,but

he will be reborn sometime in the future,so, he is still part of the wheel of time.

[Sabio]

As JAck said, sure Moridin died but he wanted more then simply death, he wanted the DO to stop spinning out his soul for rebirth. So Moridin didn't get his true goal of never existing ever again.  He never would of since the DO would of keep letting him be reborn regardless of his promises, so his only hope was the DO destroys all of reality if he won.

[LostPages]

Ah, fair enough. Something about the way it ended just put me off in that regard, I think. He could have just begged Rand to Balefire him; it's not like at that point he was worried about the consequences to the Pattern. :P

 

Poor guy. I really feel for the dude and would have loved more chapters or a companion book from his POV.

[Sabio]

Balefire doesn't stop you from being reborn.  I thought if you were balefired you were gone forever, as it seemed to me a good way to destrory everything  would be to simply balefire everyone and stop them from being reborn again.   But turns out balefire doesn't destroy your soul. 

[mb]

I take only Telaranrhiod residents can experience permanent death; but only if they die in Telaranrhiod.

 

about the Dark One spinning out souls for rebirth; I take the Dark One does not cause souls to be reborn.  the Wheel or the Pattern I take to be the one to cause souls (of either side) to be reborn.

as far as I recall, the Dark One has these abilities over souls::
-corrupt them (Trollocs and maybe also other Shadowspawn)

-give them abilities (Fain, Slayer)

-resurrect them (Arangar, Osangar, Cyndane, Moridin, Hessalam)

-make them appear as ghosts (books 10-12)

[Sabio]

If the DO can find your soul, he can try and trick you. Like what he did to Rand's mom in the first book.  From the sounds of it you have to give him access.  He can probably do what he wishes to the forsaken since they have  all sworn to him.  With Rand's mom he had to trick her.  The pattern spin's you out but the DO if he can find your soul and touch your soul then he can stuff you in another body.  He also needs to be able to touch the pattern.  So for now the DO can't do much until his prison is tapped again.

[Orderofolde]

"did moridin get a personal victory when rand won?"

NO,HE DIDN'T.rand nailed it when he said to moridin:"-an end to all things-

is the only release you'll ever know.you'd rather not exist than continue to be

you.you must know that he will not release you.not ever.not you."

moridin died a few hours after the last battle ended and was cremated,but

he will be reborn sometime in the future,so, he is still part of the wheel of time.

I understand this, but why doesn't Moridin just BF himself?  Remove himself from the pattern and end his suffering.  He was disgusted when LTT did the same, (not Balefire apparently) but the disgust and anger was only because LTT denied him the ability to kill/turn/best/attain victory over LTT himself and required him to wait for him to be reborn.  And I understand that should that happen it wouldn't make for an interesting read. 

[Sabio]

Because he would still  be reborn again, balrefire doesn't remove you from the pattern forever.  Ishy wanted more then to  simply die, he wanted the DO to stop him  from being  reborn, ever.  Ishy was tired of the endless being  reborn over and over again, fighting a fight that has been going  on from the start of time. 

[Manel Rochaid]

Rand even mentions this to Moridin, there is no escape. He says something along the lines of "You must know he'll never let you escape" to Moridin. His visions at Shayol Ghul tend to confirm this

[Sabio]

Also brings up a question, can you balefire yourself?  Since balefire removes everything you have done for a certain time depending on the amount used.  So if I balefired myself, in theory it would remove my actions of  balfireing myself.

[Manel Rochaid]

Jordan himself was asked that question, and avoided it. I'm guessing that he was unsure himself, but I would say unless he or Maria etc confirmed it, then it should be regarded as impossible. Similar to the "Can you go back in time and prevent your birth" scenario, we'd never know until someone tried itm but then, how would we know?

[mb]

about self-balefire; I speculated (in other threads) a method that might work:  do a Gateway to some point behind you then send the weave through it.

the balefire's time would probably need to be less than the time to get there.  a paradox could occur if the balefire's time is more than the time to get there.

[bigdoug1971]

Lews Therin balefired himself big enough that he created Dragonmount and the islands where Tar Valon stands now, and he was reborn as Rand. 

[Sabio]

Not sure he used balefire to kill himself, whatever used he brought down from the sky.

[Selleck]

I assume balefiring yourself is not possible...in much the same way as healing yourself, wrapping yourself in air for lift, etc is not possible.  A known, but mysterious quirk of saidar/saidin.

[threadnecromancer]

I remain suspicious of the idea that Kari fell to the Dark One in the afterlife. It makes more sense that she was a Darkfriend. How did she die I wonder?

 

 

I am a little confused about the statement regarding making them appear as ghosts, I didn't get the impression the Dark One was making souls appear as ghosts in the later books, rather that was just an aspect of the Pattern unraveling, I didn't think they were really souls or even really existent, they were just visions of times past.

 

Or are you referring to something else like Gode or Kari in TEOTW?