[Advanced] Nightmare Before Christmas - Town Wins!

[Thane Vakarian]

ahum... well... i have asked to be replaced, but it looks like it's not going to happen. A movie theatre hired me today to be present as Darth Vader for the Star Wars premiere weekend, so i'll be out for the rest of the day. I'll TRY to catch up to an enormous amount of posts tomorrow.

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

 

Can someone explain how AJ is not scum here?

 

How about you explain why I am scum

 

 

Did provide the case against Snow that you said you'd explain when you got off your phone?

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

 

I miss Zander...at least he had game...the rest of you mopes just waiting for another dazed and confused deadline lynch...good luck with that.

 

Your contributions are appreciated.

 

Perhaps next time you can manage to actually show up at DL instead of throwing crap everyone's way?

 

 

My vote was on scum...not sure what your complaint is.

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

 

 

 

Pretty much if Tab is a wolf that'll lock Shad in for me.

 

He clears quite a few people he's been toying with like Nolder/NotBob

 

The last one should be Thane or one of Pizza/BFG

 

I'm home now.  I'm extremely curious about this statement.  Could you explain what you mean here, AJ?

 

Yes. I feel like your line of questioning hasn't been very productive to the other all solving of this game.

 

You strung Nolder along for pages nitpicking points and still remain wishy washy on your opinion of him.

You did similarly with NotBob asking loaded type questions with expected answers.

 

It looks like busy work, to put it simply.

 

 

hmm...  There was an instance where I sort of spoon fed NotBob an answer.  I don't hate that you noticed that.  I still like that NotBob got around to giving that answer though, because he seemed to really not be tracking what I was asking him.

 

I'm not sold on your Nolder comments though.  I was pretty explicit on my thoughts about him, and I am pretty wishy-wash about him for reasons that I think I laid out well enough.  Do you expect town!Shad to necessarily walk away with a strong read one way or the other?

 

 

ftr...have no clue...please provide the record

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

Man this game is just a mess.

 

For my fellow townies I have some advice for you and I think it's important: Focus on what's going on in THIS game. Drop meta arguments completely.

 

I think scum are using meta and past games as a shield not to discuss this game. I don't even know who's scum and who's just getting drawn in anymore but if you're town don't be drawn in. Make arguments based on this game and this game only. Don't get deflected to defending yourself because you were scum in another game, it's completely irrelevant and imo anyone doing it past this point needs to be looked at with a heavy dose of suspicion.

 

I'm going to do a kind of reset now and look at who's died so far and see what I can glean from that if anything.

 

I really wish Nolder had a gun, Nolder if you had a gun who would you shoot and why?

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

Example of how easy this is:

 

Askthepizzaguy: Top 1 townie.

 

Simple simple. Takes three seconds of typing if you're slow. You've had all game to have a lean already embedded in your brain and you have over a day to solidify a lean if you have yet to do so.

 

I will literally weep if every townie that shows up does not do this, post-game beratements will occur. You've been warned.

 

I've been obvious to a fault.  You're in my town list...right next to Dice.

[Lenlo]

For pizza, Town.

[Andrej]

@Pizza - I have you as my third or fourth wolf

[Lenlo]

Ive already refuted most of these, but lets do it again.

 

 

Lenlo

 

 

A

I don't want to beat a dead horse here but I will be going over the reasons I suspect Lenlo as being scum here. Let's start with the first thing I noted which is what I saw as fencesitting. "I can sort of see what your getting at with Nolder but before I do anything on the matter I want you to spell it out for me." The language of "I can sort of see" stands out to me as fencesitting.

B

Says early on Xander is "bugging" him. He gets into it with him and...then backs off because he apparently misread something?

C

This is more confusing than damning in my opinion but I'd like to note that he seemed to think it was my responsibility to comment on people (mainly Nomi) linking me to Notbob. Beyond saying "I'm not" I don't know what he was expecting of me and just found the whole thing really weird.

D

I asked him to give his thoughts on me/Nomi with regards to our discussion and he put me off for a bit because he was on the phone then he quoted me posts that contained his thoughts about Nomi's case on me before I'd entered the game and began interacting with Nomi. The whole thing seemed evasive to me.

E

Made a read list and had Snow as null. Interesting because he ends up voting Snow. The bottom two are myself and Xander. I find this weird as well because I thought he was cool with Xander after their scuffle earlier so I'm not sure why Xander ended up back on the bottom of his reads. It's also weird because either around this time or not too long after I think I came out with my suspicions about Xander so unless he thought we were w/w bussing each other it's all kind of a weird position for us all to be in you know what I mean?

 

So he switched at last minute from me to Snow where his other choice was Tab. I don't really fault his reasoning though. He said his town reads were voting Snow while his scum reads were voting Tab. I do kind of wish he had a better reason but...ehh...it's Day 1 what are you gonna do. At least he had some kind of reason right? That doesn't always happen.

G

Ok so at some point he switches back and forth between me and Tab a few times. Can't make up his mind which one of us he'd like to lynch more I guess. Or maybe he's trying to find the path of least resistance?

 

 

 

 

 

A

I dont understand how this is fence sitting. I never stated I could go either way on you, I didnt say I could vote someone between 2 people, I asked for clarification of a long-winded post. If youll notice right after he gives me clarification I take a hard stance, post #171. That stance being its to early for most of his arguments to apply. To little time. Theres no fence to straddle here, so this point is moot.

 

B

Dont see what the confusion is here, I thought Zander said one thing, I attacked him for it, he pointed out he actually said something else, with my reason to push him gone I backed off and reevaluated. Pretty basic stuff man.

 

C

I wanted your opinion on it all Nolder. Thats all. All I have ever wanted from you, that you consistently refused to give, was your opinion. I want your reads and your posts and your logic so I can FIGURE YOU OUT. But at every turn you have denied me this and so I have become incredibly frustrated with you and come to the conclusion you are scummy.

 

D

Again you never specified you wanted it only about your "discusison" Nomi. I gave you quotes to answer your first question, you told me I answered the wrong question, I didnt have quotes for the second question so I gave me thoughts right then and there on the second question. I have been upfront with everything this game and your the only person that seems to think im being "evasive"

 

E

If youll remember, that reads list had Snow listed as "Lord Commander" and I didnt know who that was. As for being cool with Zander, no. I simply backed off when I realized I was wrong and tried to reevaluate. Zander didnt start town telling for me until he went into his case on Tab at EoD. Thats when I started finding him town.

 

F

Path of least resistance? Dude I have been pushing you since D1 and I have been with Zander about lynching Tab today since the beginning of N1. Im not looking for the path of least resistance, I am looking to get my top two scum reads lynched and I dont care which one.

 

Your entire argument on me is based on semantics, taking things out of context and twisting my intentions. You so strongly believe I am scum yet nothing in this case can you point to and say "Thats without a doubt, 100% scummy". Its always "Interesting", "really weird", "confusing" or asking leading questions like the path of least resistance.

 

 

 

With all that answered, Nolder, are AJ, Dice and myself your scum team or are you going to give this ISO for every player you listed as a suspect? Because I would very much like to see the remaining four if you could.

[Nolder]

Been working on this post for awhile but it's 2AM and I'm getting tired.

I figure I'll finish it tomorrow at some point.

[Nolder]

With that (re) said, I woke back up at 4am and I've been up since trying to fall asleep.

I don't know when I'm finally going to crash and get some sleep again but I'll answer everyone's questions and concerncs and whatnot the next time I'm not feeling like a zombie.

[Shad_]

 

 

 

 

Pretty much if Tab is a wolf that'll lock Shad in for me.

 

He clears quite a few people he's been toying with like Nolder/NotBob

 

The last one should be Thane or one of Pizza/BFG

 

I'm home now.  I'm extremely curious about this statement.  Could you explain what you mean here, AJ?

 

 

Yes. I feel like your line of questioning hasn't been very productive to the other all solving of this game.

 

You strung Nolder along for pages nitpicking points and still remain wishy washy on your opinion of him.

You did similarly with NotBob asking loaded type questions with expected answers.

 

It looks like busy work, to put it simply.

 

 

hmm...  There was an instance where I sort of spoon fed NotBob an answer.  I don't hate that you noticed that.  I still like that NotBob got around to giving that answer though, because he seemed to really not be tracking what I was asking him.

 

I'm not sold on your Nolder comments though.  I was pretty explicit on my thoughts about him, and I am pretty wishy-wash about him for reasons that I think I laid out well enough.  Do you expect town!Shad to necessarily walk away with a strong read one way or the other?

 

 

ftr...have no clue...please provide the record

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For me, right now:

Alanna

Thane

Lenlo

Dice

 

Pizza

Tabor

BFG

Zan

Notbob

Andrej

 

Nolder

Snow

Top of page 34, going to bed, and I have to wake up way way way too soon. -_-

 

I'm at something like this.

BFG

Lenlo

Pizza

Dice

AJ

Zander

NotBob - put a lot of thought into this slot and I'm feeling pretty okay with him so far. I've got a question out there for him to answer yet.

Thane

Taborline

Nolder

John Snow

 

Pretty stoked that my previous incarnation had the same scum pile. We shall GOAT or fail together.

 

 

I missed it...do a favor and ask again?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you put this into an actual case rather than this bulleted list sort of thing? I can sort of see what your getting at with Nolder but before I do anything on the matter I want you to spell it out for me. This way I can understand more where your coming from and get you locked down into a case on Nolder so you cant shift the goal posts/do scum things about it later on.

 

Basically I would like you to clarify this if you dont mind.

Fence sitting.

 

Normally I wouldn't call it this early in the game but the hedging language of "I can sort of see" is what really stands out.

 

Fence sitting? Did you even read the rest of the post? I was asking him to put his case on you in less, more concrete words. The "I can sort of see" language was because the dude posts a small essay every time he cases someone. I was helping YOU by making him do a clearer writeup.

 

Someone else needs to read zander for me.

 

His tone is bugging me again but im kinda having to look at him thru nice eyes atm so I cant be really sure

\

 

 

@pizza i assume thats at me? I will take as long as I take to get a read on you. You are tricksy so i will be careful

Honestly, Zander is bugging me. Theres not enough lols and I get the feeling he is trying to look helpful but got into to quickly because the thread got more serious than he could to quickly.Im keeping an eye on him and dont mind where my vote currently is, even though it was originally there for a joke.

 

 

 

Nolder looks disinterested. Means nothing at this point.

I'm very skeptical that Nolder means nothing to you. I feel that you're aware of Nolder's alignment, and don't want to reveal how you became aware of it.

 

Whether Nolder is townie or not, you are likely not.

 

meh...feelings mean zero to me. Now you're backpedaling on your own case. Talk about walking it back...

 

This doesnt look like backpedaling to me. Please explain? Just steal some of Pizza's words and use them, he has to many already.

 

First, he has a scum read on Nolder, now he says he may be wrong but I am.

 

You're a face value scum hunter. I recognize that. It's why I was pretty leery of Pizza's initial case on you. His Nolder "read" was much less likely to bait players based on their alignment than based on their null manner of interpreting actions. Some of us saw a trap, others saw an unusual read, and sooner or later someone among the latter pile was going to comment. I don't think there was anything remotely scummy about you stepping up for Nolder in that instance. I definitely think that a town in Pizza's position though, in the absence of any meta, would find it pretty suspect that you basically settled on agreeing to disagree rather than prodding Pizza further, and once he clarified (without being asked) that this was the root of his concern, I felt better about him. I'm more willing to give you a null pass because prior games have conditioned me to accept an apparent lack of interest in scum hunting out of you. I think the impression boils down to you being someone who bases reads on observation rather than engagement. Basically, I don't expect town!NotBob to prod people whose actions he finds suspicious. I expect him to somewhat passively take note of them and vote accordingly.

 

 

Now I have the above quote chain to chew on, and it's a little bit harder to swallow. Scum require deeper motivation to "backpedal" than to make an opening push, and the grounds for interpreting Pizza's actions at face value thin out. Why do you think Pizza backpedaled in this instance?

 

 

 

I think he gave himself some wiggle room in case he was wrong.

 

Alright, maybe I misunderstood your implications somewhere along the way. Are you saying you think he's probably town? Or if you think he's scum, wrong about what?

 

No. I'm saying Pizza was confident Nolder was scum. Then he backpedaled and stated even if Nolder was town I was not. I'd like to know how he discerned this? What made him lean toward Nolder as town, especially since his early read on Nolder.

 

Well, ok, sorry if I'm being a bit persistent here. You said you thought he backed off Nolder for "wiggle room in case he was wrong". If he's scum, there's nothing to be "wrong" about; he would know Nolder's alignment. So could you maybe clarify red specifically for me?

 

Are you suggesting that scum would not try to walk it back...cause to me it appeared his pivot toward this way allowed him to be wrong on Nolder.

 

Nope, not suggesting that at all. I don't think Pizza was doing that in this instance even if he's scum, but that's a bit irrelevant. I was trying to grasp your thought process and get a better read on you. I think you're probably town.

 

 

 

 

This sequence.  Green is the sort of question that lets me get a pretty decent feel for what you're thinking without making the root of my concern clear.  It provides space for a potential scum!NotBob to stumble.  Blue, on the other hand, is a bit more direct about what's bothering me.  We didn't seem to be on the same page, so I had to be more direct.  A more direct question provides scum with a more obvious out, so it's not as effective.  But I liked your answer, because it resolved my concern while maintaining consistency with our earlier miscommunication.

 

But this is all the more reason why people should be suspicious of AJ.  It seems to me he's ignoring both the larger sequence of questions that lead to the final one and the fact that I offered a detailed explanation about how I think you think along the way.  I think town!AJ would actually use my conversations with you and Nolder to get better reads on both of you, or else state specifically why he thought my conclusions weren't great.

 

Town!AJ HAS found my manor of questioning people scummy in the past.  When it strikes him, he's always been quick to call it out.  It seems to me that in this case he waited until he thought it was "safe" to throw this argument into the mix.  Prior to D2, I don't believe he had said anything negative about me all game.  Again, pretty out of character.  He is probably scum who waited to see if negativity surrounding EoD would stick before trying to take advantage of it.

[Shad_]

Poked in to answer that, still going to be gone most of the day.

[Shad_]

@Pizza I've been pretty clear with my read on your slot and it hasn't fluctuated since.  I think you're town, not locking you in for reasons stated but it would require some pretty unexpected turns in this game for me to worry.

[Shad_]

Here's a thought: AJ isn't terribly keen on bussing, but Tab has made it pretty clear that she doesn't want to be here and she didn't even bother to self preserve at EoD.  If they are scum mates, I think AJ would be more than willing to count his losses on her slot and try to do what he can to ensure a Tab scum flip makes AJ look good and sets up some mislynches.  In other words, I think Tab should be peeked after we lynch AJ.  AJ flipping scum definitely does not clear her.

[Lenlo]

It's fine Nolder, take your time with the rest. I'm just happy your giving us your thoughts.

[Clovdyx]

Vote Count 
 

AJ (2) - NotBob, Shad
Shad (2) - Dice, AJ

Tab (1) - Lenlo
Lenlo (1) - Nol 
BFG (1) - Pizza
 
It is now day. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. 
 

[Andrej]

Shad your narrative is patently false and obviously wolfy. You are flat out lying at this point.

 

How can you say that I haven't called out your methods when that is literally what I am doing? If you want to say that I didn't call yo

[Andrej]

Stupid phone.

[Andrej]

Shad your narrative is patently false and obviously wolfy. You are flat out lying at this point.

 

How can you say that I haven't called out your methods when that is literally what I am doing? If you want to say that I didn't call you out as it happened I would say that is true but it's also because I have missed large sections of this game because I am trying to get this house done and moved into before Christmas.

 

Your narrative also goes against the sequence of events. I couldn't go back to build a case on you because my points come after EOD where my suspicion began.

 

You are attempting to create some story about how I was waiting to attack you? That's bogus. I reread EOD and N1 and went to sleep. The following morning, and within like my first or second post of the Day I am already calling you a wolf. So please explain how what you say is true.

Fixed

[Andrej]

Here's a thought: AJ isn't terribly keen on bussing, but Tab has made it pretty clear that she doesn't want to be here and she didn't even bother to self preserve at EoD. If they are scum mates, I think AJ would be more than willing to count his losses on her slot and try to do what he can to ensure a Tab scum flip makes AJ look good and sets up some mislynches. In other words, I think Tab should be peeked after we lynch AJ. AJ flipping scum definitely does not clear her.

Here you are linking me again which really aligns with your EOD antics. The part in which you failed though is that you show no actual interest in resolving Tab

[Lenlo]

AJ, what did you think of Nolders big post? Personally I am glad people are starting to come out and just say their piece instead of jumping around it and trying to be clever. I appreciated the post.

[Andrej]

His ISO? Tbh I skimmed most of the longer posts on these pages cause mobile but I will get back to you on that and the other posts as well. I see BFG is back so I wanna read her too

[dicetosser1]

you know what i hate?  when u wake up in the middle of the night with a mafia thought. Cant this game let me sleep thru?

 

So i realised i might be making a mistake with Tab.

 

Ive been worring that the zander kill looked too convenient. That mafia were using it to set up a mislynch.

 

 

 

But what if it was to just shut Zander up??     I did that to Nyn one game. I just HAD to shut her up. And it worked  BECAUSE it was too obvious

 

So im going with the obvious

 

unvote

 

vote Tab

[Lenlo]

Soo... 1 day left. I dont understand why people are hesitating on Tab. Its been a long time since her last post and she has 13 posts this game. In what world does Tab do this as town?