[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

rackcitysteelers · October 28, 2015

I've got a few people that I'm keeping an eye on but not anyone who stands out as much to me as Zander does.
For example? Who are these people? I have to assume you have stuff out there for them to respond to so you can alignment solve them as well so it shouldn't be a State secret, right?

I'll keep that to myself. No need to let them know I'm watching them.

Well I had some posts queued up but I lost them so oh well. But I think the push on me is stupid but not scummy. I think it was silli that was saying they were expecting me to finally say something when I got back but I pretty clearly stated in my post that I wasn't going to actually be able to catch up until later. So now I'm gonna give you some thoughts.

I don't really set out with a concrete strategy, but the Lenlo thing was kinda just looking for actions. I wasn't entirely happy with Lenlo's reactions to it but it wasn't terrible and I have a bigger scum read anyways.

I think Zander is scum. I thought his opening post felt forced but some people said it was just him so I was like whatever. Someone else pointed this out (I forget who) but he's spent a lot of time just defending and backing people up. It's a pretty easy tactic to lay low and get on some people's good side. Zander said that he had been attacking people though, but it wasn't a high risk one. He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon. I'm gonna Vote: Zander

Things that make me say, "Hmmm..."
Penny for you thoughts?

Your argument is not very good, and Sili following you - if serious - is terribad.

I obviously disagree on the argument so we'll just agree to disagree on this point

I'm sure you do, but I don't see how. The initial post thing is whatever - if you don't know Zander, it might feel forced, but I can pull dozens of examples of posts like that where he was town. I think it was Yates that summed it up perfectly...it's 100% null for him.

Defending and backing people up is a pretty fair claim, but as I said with Pral, not sure that's really scummy. Finding townies significantly narrows down the possible pool for mafia, so there's a lot of value there, and I would say it's usually easier to find a few good town reads on D1 than a strong mafia read (barring an absolute screw up). In terms of laying low...I would fully buy that if it were true, but for Zander, specifically, this is hardly the case. The guy has over a hundred posts and has been one of the most active players in the game.

Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it.

The initial posting thing wasn't really a big part of my argument at all, it was just the event that made his posts stand out to me while I was catching up.

When I said lay low, I meant it as in he wasn't saying anything offensive that would draw attention to himself. I think he phrased his words carefully. On post 435 Pralaya posted some quotes of his that emphasize it. Note that in none of them does he say he thinks someone is town. He imo is calculating with his language, instead phrasing it as him not thinking that town or mafia (Player) would do that but he also leaves some doubt in the posts so he could possibly wiggle out of it later without looking too bad. I think it's a very clear scum tactic.

Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run.

In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote? If so, let's recalibrate a little here. Zander's initial vote on Lenlo was a joke. Just like, accept that. It's a Zander thing. Moreover, I don't think town!Zander would pause to think that putting Lenlo at 3 is a bad look. That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote. So with that in mind, here are the first three posts in which Zander converts to a serious vote. How does this impact your opinion?:

My vote on lenlo is based on this: and I've already said this in the thread.

His posts were forced, they lack content, he hadn't until just now after i implied he should, addressed his wagon in a concerted way which may or may not be scum who is playing it safe and hoping the storm will pass. I obviously, being me after all, will not like this behavior. I am glad he finally addressed his wagon.

more later when i get home.

Forced/Lacked content - I assume your talking about post #51? That post wasnt even 3 pages into the game and it was my first post. Your using that to say im forcing my posts/lacking content? Whats your opinion on Pral, Nomi or say Dice then? None of them have posted much and what they have hasnt been content. Id like to see if you have a similar opinion about them or are singling me out for some reason.

The wagon - Concerted? So a planned way? You mean I ignored something that was just two people ranting at me without telling me what for? Now that you have actually told me what im being bothered about I can answer it, but you cant expect someone to respond to something that was never mentioned.

i dont know if its just me but this post is very meh imo. im gonna have to go back and read his posts.

Page 4 - Sili goes crazy. Hes kinda spamming the thread here, most of it is pointless. Why?

Thane has 2 posts. Nothing of content in them. Checks in then checks out

Rack hasnt actually contributed at all. Hes just pushed something with no reason and then let Sili do all the work. atleast in terms of my train. He did alittle bit of poking at Zander but nothing serious. I feel like he might be pushing me early as a reaction train? Like see what people do, who jumps on a quick bandwagon, how I defend myself. Just get some overall reactions. Seeing how he plays it out will be interesting and telling imo.

Zander posted a good amount, but mostly just light hearted stuff. I want MEAT. Quick to jump on me, and stay on me I might add, when I vote Corlanna jokingly.

Clov disagrees with Rack on Zander, but thinks hes town. Also engages Sili abit. Hes not afraid to confront people

Lots of inactives this game. We have to be careful about people pushing them for weak reasons, as I think that would be an easy for the scum to rack up some easy days/kills.

Cory not saying anything meaningful, votes Sooh. Cmon Coreh. Help me out here.

Hallia soft defends me for no reason. Its not major but something worth noting imo.

Sooh pokes at Sili, doesnt back it with a vote. I dunno why but I kinda feel like she is testing the waters for a Sili push. Have nothing to back this up atm sadly.

Dice gettin friendly with Sooh.

Yates comes in guns blazing. I noticed Sili is questionable of it, but I like it.

Sili, lots of votes, lots of posts, moderate amount of content imo. Got into it with Yates. Gets pissy at me when I dismiss his and Racks push on me because it has nothing to it. I asked if he was drunk. Apparently this was stupid. Im still amused by it. After I respond to him though, he finally posts a good meaningful, more than 1 line post. I liked it.

Tab posts. Says nothing.

Shad is playin. I cant really get a read on him for some reason, but hes posting content so... yay? I wanna like him but I feel like I need something more, so I can make sure its not just me liking him cause he defended me/chatted with me.

Nomi. Votes Yates jokingly, even though Sili has been going at him. Odd?

I had quotes, but it kinda went up in flames cause DM. I have work I need to do tonight, so im just gonna post my notepad thoughts that came up as I was reading. Heres my current list.

(In not particular order)

Town:

Clov

Yates

Lenlo

Null to Town:

Rack

Shad

Sili

Null:

Hallia

Parlaya

Corlanna (Cory/Alanna)

Taborline

Dice

BFG

Nomi

Null to Scum:

Thane

Zander

Sooh

Scum:

[v]Sooh[/v]

I wanna see how this goes, and maybe shed some light on Dice and Sili in the process.

*peeks in*

wow, i was surprised that the PM arrived. Seems like we have a game after all

*hands out drinks and stuff to nibble on*

*stretches*

alright, will the wolves just out themselves so we can get wrecking?

*feels loved*

remind me not to send you chocolate in the future.....

So your top 3 Scum reads:

So you have Thane null to scum based on the above posts.

Sooh based on sussing Sili

Me for being lighthearted and voting you.

this is just a horrible list man.

Thane: Not doing anything at all. Just checking out.

Sooh: General tone and a bad feeling.

You: High post count, little content.

Disagree? Please, gimme somethin to work with.

Thane: Have you ever played with Thane before...its early D1 extremely normal for Thane atp imo

Sooh: I don't think her tone is off. bad feeling i can agree with a bit because unlike innocent till proven guilty Sooh is always wolf till proven town to me. but ive mislynched or helped to enough times to give her some more time before coming to a conclusion like that.

lolololololol----Sorry Sooh

Me: HI IM ZANDER

It almost seems like you were just picking names out of a hat.

And you complained about leaving my vote on you when you voted Corlanna first then i voted you. and your vote was there till you made the comment and voted Sooh.....

im pretty happy keeping my vote where it is brah.

I'm talking about Lenlo listed someone who had barely posted in his bottom three and Zander asked why that person stood out over others who had barely posted. Lenlo was saying that their posts just felt off and everything which I felt was a valid response since I think gut reads are a good starting point for suspicions. Anyways, Zander kept attacking Lenlo for it, asking for specifics when a gut read isn't going to get more specific than that. A gut read is a gut read. I felt as though it was a poor reason to push someone.

Yeah, I thought you were probably talking about Thane but I didn't want to assume it straight away

So here's what I'm looking at:

You said: "He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon."

Clov said: "Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it."

You said: "Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run."

What's bugging me is that when Clov objected that Zander's vote was insignificant you offered a counterargument instead of saying "that's not what I was talking about". But you seem to recognize that the vote was just in jest and the "piling on" came later. It shows me you were probably thinking more about formulating a rebuttal to Clov than about your opinion of Zander.

If you assumed it was Thane (I think this was the person) then why did you write out a long response about something else earlier? If you didn't want to assume then I don't get why you wrote a long response as though we were talking about Zander's vote for someone else. And I totally disagree that it was in jest. I think that he threw down the vote on the most popular train at the time in hopes of getting people to jump on. There were other people around that time who had said some iffy things about Lenlo so imo Zander was trying to get those people to jump on the wagon.

Sili Quirrels · October 28, 2015

Nomi u riki?

Hallia · October 28, 2015

Catching up on mobile.

Between the Nomi/Dice thing I really like Nomi's points. He's going above and beyond trying to explain himself

[v] Dice [/v]

For now.

And Cory - I said last night I was there to talk in real time with you and you vanished. I also said that I would do a re-read today and pay you special mind.

Zander? · October 28, 2015

but no, i wasn't serious. but i also believe rack is genuine.

fact is i haven't paid much attention to zander, so i want to. i also think the wolves will be polarized this way.

but but but... you need to love the Zander!!!!

i say things and stuffs....and if you understand Zanderese it sometimes makes sense!!!

Honestly Is not wanting players to be able to apply meta to you ever a pro-town thing?
If you lynch me on the basis of wanting to play with some openly stated anonymity, you will find a dead townie as a result.

I'm sorry, I don't believe it's necessary. My general level of experience and that I am playing under a pseudonym is freely volunteered meta information as it is game relevant. Exactly who I am is private, and that is my final word on the matter. With respect and love for my fellow players. :)

I'm nice person. Give me a chance to just be me without meta entanglements. It's all I want.

:)

I have no problem letting you be you, bit you can't possibly expect anyone to put stock into a meta "defense" (quotes because you weren't necessarily defending her, as much as avoiding persecuting her) you are providing when you are deliberately avoiding identifying yourself.

It's exceptionally easy for mafia to say "<person> looks like their town self", and looking good with a town flip. When you only know them from offsite we have no way of knowing if your statement is valid

Even easier would be for a mafioso to simply reveal their identity, so as to make plain the truth of the statement. Many of you know Sooh from previous games. If I were telling pork pies, your own natives would be able to contradict me. I trust this group to be able to work it out- it's not particularly wise for a scum Nomi to defend a scum Sooh in this manner. The link becomes obvious and without the evidence of saying where I'm from and citing example, it's not as strong. And all this can be avoided simply by saying more about me. This is the problem of relying on meta. I have my reasons, and revealed to the game host who I am so as to maintain game integrity. But your reliance on meta has caused you to overlook the obvious, here. It's more harmful than helpful to rely on it, as your reasoning falls apart under its own logic. There's nothing at all to be gained by saying a mistruth about knowing Sili from previous games without it being true, especially if I'm not willing to back up such a statement. There's no there, there. So to speak. But a combination of normal distrust (its a mafia game) and reliance on meta has led you to an unreasonable position. All I ask is that you take a look at it with an objective eye, and you'll form the right conclusions.

One has little to do with the other- I can absolutely be mafia. But not for such a reason. Judge me on my merits this game, don't rely on histories.

If I have nefarious aims for saying this or that about certain players, the link is still there, openly, regardless of the truth about my meta. Knowing exactly what it is doesn't change that fact. So you're missing nothing that enables you to solve it. It's a quite reasonable position to say, that's sufficient data. As a fellow mafia player, you can solve the game based on that, you need no more.

I trust this settles this unimportant matter.

Carry on.

Ok i am having an issue with this. For me its not about you meta. This game is about trust. developing trust in those you think town. Not trusting those you dont think are town. You start in the middle and start leaning one way or another based on what is said and for some on meta true. Thing is this "im not telling you guys who I really am" thing is rasing my hackles. and not in the sense of private info like saying i live in such and such but in that it has been so out there. Add to that its annoying me cause Im feeling like Ive seen a Nomi Sunrider around DM before. its an itch i cant get. Then theres the fact that DM has been screwed by alt accounts before and actually has a policy about them.

By it being so open that you are not sharing everything openly I automatically start to lean Mafia on your slot.

Then theres this below

Oh that's right, Rack is from another forum, this is his first game here, just noticed from the sign-up thread. Am I interpreting that correctly, Cory? You seem to have met elsewhere. I have my suspicions but it just seems kinda rude to lynch Rack day one as our way of welcoming him here.

Now taking bets this is why I die if Rack's guilty.

Rack is from WalterFootball, the origin of me and Clov.

He does look odd in the generic sense. I think his approach he's taking is useful as scum because it reveals essentially zero about his team even if he's caught. That said, without metadata I can't say he's being different. Just that I generally distrust players who share as little as possible and would lynch them in a neutral setting over those who give me more to digest. My gut says lynch but my experience is telling me I'm policy lynching and playing it safe and that's not the same as finding a scum day one. And the solution to a player who is revealing little, who is a townie, is to give them more time to reveal more. But the wiring is still all backwards and I want to make them die now, to be safe.

My day ones are usually crap, and this is the sort of reason why. Rack is an unknown quantity, much like Sooh was. Yet I'm biased to give more time to Sooh because I know that's usually a fruitful option.

My conclusion is that I'm not the best judge of what we should do about Rack right now. I'm going to defer to you because I trust that you're a townie and that you would make a better judgement about Rack than I can at the present time. This post is going to sound weird to like 10 people.

seeing the irony here??

So right now Im wanting to unvote vote Nomi you can say its cruddy reasoning but the fact is you are giving me reason to distrust you.

it is cruddy reasoning imo Dice. im not feeling Town!Dice very much at all thus far man....

Yates · October 28, 2015

Zander - when you are caught up can you talk to me about where you are wrt Rack? Thanks, brother.

Thane Vakarian · October 28, 2015

I'd give dice some more time. I don't have the impression he's a wolf here. The interaction dice/nomi could be a heated one, yes, but i think the wolf is more to be found on Nomi's side.

Zander? · October 28, 2015

So let's try a new experiment

I want you to tell me EVERYTHING that bothers you about me this game

"Laine saying something sarcastic" doesn't count because that's basically her language

Are you saying I'm always sarcastic? Because I can kinda agree with that.

Taborline · October 28, 2015

I'd give dice some more time. I don't have the impression he's a wolf here. The interaction dice/nomi could be a heated one, yes, but i think the wolf is more to be found on Nomi's side.

Can you be more specific about why you don't like Nomi? I saw your post asking him for some explaining, but you don't really say more than he seems off, or you don't like a post, but you don't say why.

This kind of "I think we should look elsewhere......" without a clearer explanation is a bit suspect.

Taborline · October 28, 2015

alright.... quite a tad to read.

first things first: Nomi, Dice... this is a game. Unpleasantries and such are not wanted in the game, so please suck it up, jump into an icebath and come back when you've achieved normal body temperature before posting aggresive stuff in the thread. It makes a catch up/reread unnecessarily unpleasant.

Now, secondly, before i spoiler all my little notes here, there's something standing out to me which i'd like to adress: @Nomi: post 893, you state i have the potential to be an endgame wolf. This makes me think about Dice's statement about you. Do you have an alt here and have we played before? Statements like the one you made ring very loud. And they make me very suspicious of you.

Furthermore: Hi BFG! Stay in the game, please? I need me some BFG this game *nods and hands drink*

few little notes here, which i will share with you once more so you can try to figure out how my mind works.

580: Cory has a point on Sooh

page 30: liking Tabor's play this page, careful townish position here.

601: Rack peeks in, states we post a lot. Seen worse tbh.

605: Shad asking general opinion on Sooh

606: Zander worried about Hal, which at this point makes sense

608: good to see Sooh react on my jokevote commenting.

616: i post fake? i doubt it. I think people are unsure what to make of my play this game, seeing it's more than usual D1

623: Where do you mention other players Sooh? There's 14 more, some other reads would be nice.

629: Shad asks Sooh pov, Zander also few posts later

PAGE 32: Corlanna seems ok, no D1 lynch this game.

671: Agree with Cory, Yates/Tab likely v/v (feels like it)

PAGE 35: Tabor missed Nomi's question to Sooh?

703: ding ding ding, ouch... NOT liking this post from Nomi

721: cory votes Rack. Choochoo, so, wants train to take off.

722 Sooh wants Rack to post

725 Sooh finally changes vote, to Hallia. At this point, not bad.

737 Sooh's vote explained. Single vote won't make someone talk imo...

746 SIli: Sooh is town

773: i think this is an odd post coming from Pral...

page 40: still no Rack?

802-804:doesn't feel off, this clov/sili convo

806: Rack votes Zan. I think Rack doesn't know the Zan, but ok...

807: Sili votes Zan too? ... wtf?

PAGE 41: Rack is in da house.... but i'm not convinced of town by his posts...

829: Hallia in da house, likes Pral's opening. Ok, didn't find it too bad either.

837: like this one from Cory

Page 43: like that Hallia is more involved. more null than wolf now ftm.

unvote

There's another one now that i am mightily suspicious of

[v] Nomi [/v]

I would like some explaning from you. There's too much from you bothering me at the moment.

For reference, this is the post I was talking about.

Shad_ · October 28, 2015

Well I had some posts queued up but I lost them so oh well. But I think the push on me is stupid but not scummy. I think it was silli that was saying they were expecting me to finally say something when I got back but I pretty clearly stated in my post that I wasn't going to actually be able to catch up until later. So now I'm gonna give you some thoughts.

I don't really set out with a concrete strategy, but the Lenlo thing was kinda just looking for actions. I wasn't entirely happy with Lenlo's reactions to it but it wasn't terrible and I have a bigger scum read anyways.

I think Zander is scum. I thought his opening post felt forced but some people said it was just him so I was like whatever. Someone else pointed this out (I forget who) but he's spent a lot of time just defending and backing people up. It's a pretty easy tactic to lay low and get on some people's good side. Zander said that he had been attacking people though, but it wasn't a high risk one. He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon. I'm gonna Vote: Zander

Things that make me say, "Hmmm..."
Penny for you thoughts?

Your argument is not very good, and Sili following you - if serious - is terribad.

I obviously disagree on the argument so we'll just agree to disagree on this point

I'm sure you do, but I don't see how. The initial post thing is whatever - if you don't know Zander, it might feel forced, but I can pull dozens of examples of posts like that where he was town. I think it was Yates that summed it up perfectly...it's 100% null for him.

Defending and backing people up is a pretty fair claim, but as I said with Pral, not sure that's really scummy. Finding townies significantly narrows down the possible pool for mafia, so there's a lot of value there, and I would say it's usually easier to find a few good town reads on D1 than a strong mafia read (barring an absolute screw up). In terms of laying low...I would fully buy that if it were true, but for Zander, specifically, this is hardly the case. The guy has over a hundred posts and has been one of the most active players in the game.

Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it.

The initial posting thing wasn't really a big part of my argument at all, it was just the event that made his posts stand out to me while I was catching up.

When I said lay low, I meant it as in he wasn't saying anything offensive that would draw attention to himself. I think he phrased his words carefully. On post 435 Pralaya posted some quotes of his that emphasize it. Note that in none of them does he say he thinks someone is town. He imo is calculating with his language, instead phrasing it as him not thinking that town or mafia (Player) would do that but he also leaves some doubt in the posts so he could possibly wiggle out of it later without looking too bad. I think it's a very clear scum tactic.

Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run.

In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote? If so, let's recalibrate a little here. Zander's initial vote on Lenlo was a joke. Just like, accept that. It's a Zander thing. Moreover, I don't think town!Zander would pause to think that putting Lenlo at 3 is a bad look. That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote. So with that in mind, here are the first three posts in which Zander converts to a serious vote. How does this impact your opinion?:

My vote on lenlo is based on this: and I've already said this in the thread.

His posts were forced, they lack content, he hadn't until just now after i implied he should, addressed his wagon in a concerted way which may or may not be scum who is playing it safe and hoping the storm will pass. I obviously, being me after all, will not like this behavior. I am glad he finally addressed his wagon.

more later when i get home.

Forced/Lacked content - I assume your talking about post #51? That post wasnt even 3 pages into the game and it was my first post. Your using that to say im forcing my posts/lacking content? Whats your opinion on Pral, Nomi or say Dice then? None of them have posted much and what they have hasnt been content. Id like to see if you have a similar opinion about them or are singling me out for some reason.

The wagon - Concerted? So a planned way? You mean I ignored something that was just two people ranting at me without telling me what for? Now that you have actually told me what im being bothered about I can answer it, but you cant expect someone to respond to something that was never mentioned.

i dont know if its just me but this post is very meh imo. im gonna have to go back and read his posts.

Page 4 - Sili goes crazy. Hes kinda spamming the thread here, most of it is pointless. Why?

Thane has 2 posts. Nothing of content in them. Checks in then checks out

Rack hasnt actually contributed at all. Hes just pushed something with no reason and then let Sili do all the work. atleast in terms of my train. He did alittle bit of poking at Zander but nothing serious. I feel like he might be pushing me early as a reaction train? Like see what people do, who jumps on a quick bandwagon, how I defend myself. Just get some overall reactions. Seeing how he plays it out will be interesting and telling imo.

Zander posted a good amount, but mostly just light hearted stuff. I want MEAT. Quick to jump on me, and stay on me I might add, when I vote Corlanna jokingly.

Clov disagrees with Rack on Zander, but thinks hes town. Also engages Sili abit. Hes not afraid to confront people

Lots of inactives this game. We have to be careful about people pushing them for weak reasons, as I think that would be an easy for the scum to rack up some easy days/kills.

Cory not saying anything meaningful, votes Sooh. Cmon Coreh. Help me out here.

Hallia soft defends me for no reason. Its not major but something worth noting imo.

Sooh pokes at Sili, doesnt back it with a vote. I dunno why but I kinda feel like she is testing the waters for a Sili push. Have nothing to back this up atm sadly.

Dice gettin friendly with Sooh.

Yates comes in guns blazing. I noticed Sili is questionable of it, but I like it.

Sili, lots of votes, lots of posts, moderate amount of content imo. Got into it with Yates. Gets pissy at me when I dismiss his and Racks push on me because it has nothing to it. I asked if he was drunk. Apparently this was stupid. Im still amused by it. After I respond to him though, he finally posts a good meaningful, more than 1 line post. I liked it.

Tab posts. Says nothing.

Shad is playin. I cant really get a read on him for some reason, but hes posting content so... yay? I wanna like him but I feel like I need something more, so I can make sure its not just me liking him cause he defended me/chatted with me.

Nomi. Votes Yates jokingly, even though Sili has been going at him. Odd?

I had quotes, but it kinda went up in flames cause DM. I have work I need to do tonight, so im just gonna post my notepad thoughts that came up as I was reading. Heres my current list.

(In not particular order)

Town:

Clov

Yates

Lenlo

Null to Town:

Rack

Shad

Sili

Null:

Hallia

Parlaya

Corlanna (Cory/Alanna)

Taborline

Dice

BFG

Nomi

Null to Scum:

Thane

Zander

Sooh

Scum:

[v]Sooh[/v]

I wanna see how this goes, and maybe shed some light on Dice and Sili in the process.

*peeks in*

wow, i was surprised that the PM arrived. Seems like we have a game after all

*hands out drinks and stuff to nibble on*

*stretches*

alright, will the wolves just out themselves so we can get wrecking?

*feels loved*

remind me not to send you chocolate in the future.....

So your top 3 Scum reads:

So you have Thane null to scum based on the above posts.

Sooh based on sussing Sili

Me for being lighthearted and voting you.

this is just a horrible list man.

Thane: Not doing anything at all. Just checking out.

Sooh: General tone and a bad feeling.

You: High post count, little content.

Disagree? Please, gimme somethin to work with.

Thane: Have you ever played with Thane before...its early D1 extremely normal for Thane atp imo

Sooh: I don't think her tone is off. bad feeling i can agree with a bit because unlike innocent till proven guilty Sooh is always wolf till proven town to me. but ive mislynched or helped to enough times to give her some more time before coming to a conclusion like that.

lolololololol----Sorry Sooh

Me: HI IM ZANDER

It almost seems like you were just picking names out of a hat.

And you complained about leaving my vote on you when you voted Corlanna first then i voted you. and your vote was there till you made the comment and voted Sooh.....

im pretty happy keeping my vote where it is brah.

I'm talking about Lenlo listed someone who had barely posted in his bottom three and Zander asked why that person stood out over others who had barely posted. Lenlo was saying that their posts just felt off and everything which I felt was a valid response since I think gut reads are a good starting point for suspicions. Anyways, Zander kept attacking Lenlo for it, asking for specifics when a gut read isn't going to get more specific than that. A gut read is a gut read. I felt as though it was a poor reason to push someone.

Yeah, I thought you were probably talking about Thane but I didn't want to assume it straight away

So here's what I'm looking at:

You said: "He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon."

Clov said: "Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it."

You said: "Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run."

What's bugging me is that when Clov objected that Zander's vote was insignificant you offered a counterargument instead of saying "that's not what I was talking about". But you seem to recognize that the vote was just in jest and the "piling on" came later. It shows me you were probably thinking more about formulating a rebuttal to Clov than about your opinion of Zander.

If you assumed it was Thane (I think this was the person) then why did you write out a long response about something else earlier? If you didn't want to assume then I don't get why you wrote a long response as though we were talking about Zander's vote for someone else. And I totally disagree that it was in jest. I think that he threw down the vote on the most popular train at the time in hopes of getting people to jump on. There were other people around that time who had said some iffy things about Lenlo so imo Zander was trying to get those people to jump on the wagon.

You mean the "In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote?" etc post? Moments like that are what I look back on proudly when I actually catch scum. :happy:

And as I said, "That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote." But there is no disputing whether the vote was a joke. The debatable topic is whether the joke disguised ulterior motives. You are now committing to the view that it had ulterior motives from the get-go. Ok. Elaborate on what, in your opinion, might have lead scum!Zander to make this decision.

Thane Vakarian · October 28, 2015

I think Nomi has some sort of secret agenda, already pointing out people now as mislynch targets later. I also REALLY have the impression that it's a player we know under another name. The read on me felt like TMI for someone who just has a first game with me.

Call me suspicious, but something is off with Nomi, and at one point i'll figure out what it is

Zander? · October 28, 2015

nothing i can do in this game will make me a wolf, ever.

I've actually had you as pretty strong town most of the game, but that vote bumped you below my other confident town reads. If you're up to something, that's one thing, but immediately following the person you've been calling scum for days on a case I feel is pretty objectively flawed is NOT a good look.

i often do stuff like this just to stir the pot. i am interested in zander. im not opposed to any sort of lynch, except on my town core.

tbh i didn't know about the reasoning, but rack did grasp zander's wolf meta pretty well, so i wanted to know what would happen if i voted zander. =/

id like to see what youve gleaned from it if you dont mind.

do you think 'the bad reasoning' makes rack a wolf clov?

i know you asked Clov this but i wanted to weigh in from my POV. First I'll say i havent focused much on Rack atp and ill try to ISO him later. Now with that said, I doubt he knows much about my Meta or how I play so I can/have run into problems with players that dont know or understand me so I dont think at necessarily indicates he's a wolf but...the fact he really only seems to have focused on me and nothing else DOES concern me some. I'll reserve judgement here till im fully caught up and have a chance to ISO him.

From where I stand I think Corlanna, Sili, Shad and Zander are my villagers.

I still believe Thane is a viable option for wolf,

I'm also very much cautiously watching Clov, Nomi and Yates at the moment. Not sure I want to lynch within that pool today though. I'm probably going to need more time on those.

I'm not fond of Sooh's reads for the most part. I agree that Shad is townish, and for the second part, you have left that so far open to interpretation it's not funny. Are you watching them because you think they're scum?

this is an interesting point and one ill keep in mind as i re read has Sooh has been pinging my radar some thus far.

Shad_ · October 28, 2015

Catching up on mobile.

Between the Nomi/Dice thing I really like Nomi's points. He's going above and beyond trying to explain himself

[v] Dice [/v]

For now.

And Cory - I said last night I was there to talk in real time with you and you vanished. I also said that I would do a re-read today and pay you special mind.

Thoughts on potential v/v violence?

Thane Vakarian · October 28, 2015

alright.... quite a tad to read.

first things first: Nomi, Dice... this is a game. Unpleasantries and such are not wanted in the game, so please suck it up, jump into an icebath and come back when you've achieved normal body temperature before posting aggresive stuff in the thread. It makes a catch up/reread unnecessarily unpleasant.

Now, secondly, before i spoiler all my little notes here, there's something standing out to me which i'd like to adress: @Nomi: post 893, you state i have the potential to be an endgame wolf. This makes me think about Dice's statement about you. Do you have an alt here and have we played before? Statements like the one you made ring very loud. And they make me very suspicious of you.

Furthermore: Hi BFG! Stay in the game, please? I need me some BFG this game *nods and hands drink*

few little notes here, which i will share with you once more so you can try to figure out how my mind works.

580: Cory has a point on Sooh

page 30: liking Tabor's play this page, careful townish position here.

601: Rack peeks in, states we post a lot. Seen worse tbh.

605: Shad asking general opinion on Sooh

606: Zander worried about Hal, which at this point makes sense

608: good to see Sooh react on my jokevote commenting.

616: i post fake? i doubt it. I think people are unsure what to make of my play this game, seeing it's more than usual D1

623: Where do you mention other players Sooh? There's 14 more, some other reads would be nice.

629: Shad asks Sooh pov, Zander also few posts later

PAGE 32: Corlanna seems ok, no D1 lynch this game.

671: Agree with Cory, Yates/Tab likely v/v (feels like it)

PAGE 35: Tabor missed Nomi's question to Sooh?

703: ding ding ding, ouch... NOT liking this post from Nomi

721: cory votes Rack. Choochoo, so, wants train to take off.

722 Sooh wants Rack to post

725 Sooh finally changes vote, to Hallia. At this point, not bad.

737 Sooh's vote explained. Single vote won't make someone talk imo...

746 SIli: Sooh is town

773: i think this is an odd post coming from Pral...

page 40: still no Rack?

802-804:doesn't feel off, this clov/sili convo

806: Rack votes Zan. I think Rack doesn't know the Zan, but ok...

807: Sili votes Zan too? ... wtf?

PAGE 41: Rack is in da house.... but i'm not convinced of town by his posts...

829: Hallia in da house, likes Pral's opening. Ok, didn't find it too bad either.

837: like this one from Cory

Page 43: like that Hallia is more involved. more null than wolf now ftm.

unvote

There's another one now that i am mightily suspicious of

[v] Nomi [/v]

I would like some explaning from you. There's too much from you bothering me at the moment.

For reference, this is the post I was talking about.

i bolded and colored what i mean, there's also a reference in the spoiler

Shad_ · October 28, 2015

I'd give dice some more time. I don't have the impression he's a wolf here. The interaction dice/nomi could be a heated one, yes, but i think the wolf is more to be found on Nomi's side.

Same question.

Shad_ · October 28, 2015

Actually just let Hallia answer it because I'm already set in my read on you.

rackcitysteelers · October 28, 2015

Well I had some posts queued up but I lost them so oh well. But I think the push on me is stupid but not scummy. I think it was silli that was saying they were expecting me to finally say something when I got back but I pretty clearly stated in my post that I wasn't going to actually be able to catch up until later. So now I'm gonna give you some thoughts.

I don't really set out with a concrete strategy, but the Lenlo thing was kinda just looking for actions. I wasn't entirely happy with Lenlo's reactions to it but it wasn't terrible and I have a bigger scum read anyways.

I think Zander is scum. I thought his opening post felt forced but some people said it was just him so I was like whatever. Someone else pointed this out (I forget who) but he's spent a lot of time just defending and backing people up. It's a pretty easy tactic to lay low and get on some people's good side. Zander said that he had been attacking people though, but it wasn't a high risk one. He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon. I'm gonna Vote: Zander

Things that make me say, "Hmmm..."
Penny for you thoughts?

Your argument is not very good, and Sili following you - if serious - is terribad.

I obviously disagree on the argument so we'll just agree to disagree on this point

I'm sure you do, but I don't see how. The initial post thing is whatever - if you don't know Zander, it might feel forced, but I can pull dozens of examples of posts like that where he was town. I think it was Yates that summed it up perfectly...it's 100% null for him.

Defending and backing people up is a pretty fair claim, but as I said with Pral, not sure that's really scummy. Finding townies significantly narrows down the possible pool for mafia, so there's a lot of value there, and I would say it's usually easier to find a few good town reads on D1 than a strong mafia read (barring an absolute screw up). In terms of laying low...I would fully buy that if it were true, but for Zander, specifically, this is hardly the case. The guy has over a hundred posts and has been one of the most active players in the game.

Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it.

The initial posting thing wasn't really a big part of my argument at all, it was just the event that made his posts stand out to me while I was catching up.

When I said lay low, I meant it as in he wasn't saying anything offensive that would draw attention to himself. I think he phrased his words carefully. On post 435 Pralaya posted some quotes of his that emphasize it. Note that in none of them does he say he thinks someone is town. He imo is calculating with his language, instead phrasing it as him not thinking that town or mafia (Player) would do that but he also leaves some doubt in the posts so he could possibly wiggle out of it later without looking too bad. I think it's a very clear scum tactic.

Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run.

In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote? If so, let's recalibrate a little here. Zander's initial vote on Lenlo was a joke. Just like, accept that. It's a Zander thing. Moreover, I don't think town!Zander would pause to think that putting Lenlo at 3 is a bad look. That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote. So with that in mind, here are the first three posts in which Zander converts to a serious vote. How does this impact your opinion?:

My vote on lenlo is based on this: and I've already said this in the thread.

His posts were forced, they lack content, he hadn't until just now after i implied he should, addressed his wagon in a concerted way which may or may not be scum who is playing it safe and hoping the storm will pass. I obviously, being me after all, will not like this behavior. I am glad he finally addressed his wagon.

more later when i get home.

Forced/Lacked content - I assume your talking about post #51? That post wasnt even 3 pages into the game and it was my first post. Your using that to say im forcing my posts/lacking content? Whats your opinion on Pral, Nomi or say Dice then? None of them have posted much and what they have hasnt been content. Id like to see if you have a similar opinion about them or are singling me out for some reason.

The wagon - Concerted? So a planned way? You mean I ignored something that was just two people ranting at me without telling me what for? Now that you have actually told me what im being bothered about I can answer it, but you cant expect someone to respond to something that was never mentioned.

i dont know if its just me but this post is very meh imo. im gonna have to go back and read his posts.

Page 4 - Sili goes crazy. Hes kinda spamming the thread here, most of it is pointless. Why?

Thane has 2 posts. Nothing of content in them. Checks in then checks out

Rack hasnt actually contributed at all. Hes just pushed something with no reason and then let Sili do all the work. atleast in terms of my train. He did alittle bit of poking at Zander but nothing serious. I feel like he might be pushing me early as a reaction train? Like see what people do, who jumps on a quick bandwagon, how I defend myself. Just get some overall reactions. Seeing how he plays it out will be interesting and telling imo.

Zander posted a good amount, but mostly just light hearted stuff. I want MEAT. Quick to jump on me, and stay on me I might add, when I vote Corlanna jokingly.

Clov disagrees with Rack on Zander, but thinks hes town. Also engages Sili abit. Hes not afraid to confront people

Lots of inactives this game. We have to be careful about people pushing them for weak reasons, as I think that would be an easy for the scum to rack up some easy days/kills.

Cory not saying anything meaningful, votes Sooh. Cmon Coreh. Help me out here.

Hallia soft defends me for no reason. Its not major but something worth noting imo.

Sooh pokes at Sili, doesnt back it with a vote. I dunno why but I kinda feel like she is testing the waters for a Sili push. Have nothing to back this up atm sadly.

Dice gettin friendly with Sooh.

Yates comes in guns blazing. I noticed Sili is questionable of it, but I like it.

Sili, lots of votes, lots of posts, moderate amount of content imo. Got into it with Yates. Gets pissy at me when I dismiss his and Racks push on me because it has nothing to it. I asked if he was drunk. Apparently this was stupid. Im still amused by it. After I respond to him though, he finally posts a good meaningful, more than 1 line post. I liked it.

Tab posts. Says nothing.

Shad is playin. I cant really get a read on him for some reason, but hes posting content so... yay? I wanna like him but I feel like I need something more, so I can make sure its not just me liking him cause he defended me/chatted with me.

Nomi. Votes Yates jokingly, even though Sili has been going at him. Odd?

I had quotes, but it kinda went up in flames cause DM. I have work I need to do tonight, so im just gonna post my notepad thoughts that came up as I was reading. Heres my current list.

(In not particular order)

Town:

Clov

Yates

Lenlo

Null to Town:

Rack

Shad

Sili

Null:

Hallia

Parlaya

Corlanna (Cory/Alanna)

Taborline

Dice

BFG

Nomi

Null to Scum:

Thane

Zander

Sooh

Scum:

[v]Sooh[/v]

I wanna see how this goes, and maybe shed some light on Dice and Sili in the process.

*peeks in*

wow, i was surprised that the PM arrived. Seems like we have a game after all

*hands out drinks and stuff to nibble on*

*stretches*

alright, will the wolves just out themselves so we can get wrecking?

*feels loved*

remind me not to send you chocolate in the future.....

So your top 3 Scum reads:

So you have Thane null to scum based on the above posts.

Sooh based on sussing Sili

Me for being lighthearted and voting you.

this is just a horrible list man.

Thane: Not doing anything at all. Just checking out.

Sooh: General tone and a bad feeling.

You: High post count, little content.

Disagree? Please, gimme somethin to work with.

Thane: Have you ever played with Thane before...its early D1 extremely normal for Thane atp imo

Sooh: I don't think her tone is off. bad feeling i can agree with a bit because unlike innocent till proven guilty Sooh is always wolf till proven town to me. but ive mislynched or helped to enough times to give her some more time before coming to a conclusion like that.

lolololololol----Sorry Sooh

Me: HI IM ZANDER

It almost seems like you were just picking names out of a hat.

And you complained about leaving my vote on you when you voted Corlanna first then i voted you. and your vote was there till you made the comment and voted Sooh.....

im pretty happy keeping my vote where it is brah.

I'm talking about Lenlo listed someone who had barely posted in his bottom three and Zander asked why that person stood out over others who had barely posted. Lenlo was saying that their posts just felt off and everything which I felt was a valid response since I think gut reads are a good starting point for suspicions. Anyways, Zander kept attacking Lenlo for it, asking for specifics when a gut read isn't going to get more specific than that. A gut read is a gut read. I felt as though it was a poor reason to push someone.

Yeah, I thought you were probably talking about Thane but I didn't want to assume it straight away

So here's what I'm looking at:

You said: "He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon."

Clov said: "Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it."

You said: "Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run."

What's bugging me is that when Clov objected that Zander's vote was insignificant you offered a counterargument instead of saying "that's not what I was talking about". But you seem to recognize that the vote was just in jest and the "piling on" came later. It shows me you were probably thinking more about formulating a rebuttal to Clov than about your opinion of Zander.

If you assumed it was Thane (I think this was the person) then why did you write out a long response about something else earlier? If you didn't want to assume then I don't get why you wrote a long response as though we were talking about Zander's vote for someone else. And I totally disagree that it was in jest. I think that he threw down the vote on the most popular train at the time in hopes of getting people to jump on. There were other people around that time who had said some iffy things about Lenlo so imo Zander was trying to get those people to jump on the wagon.

You mean the "In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote?" etc post? Moments like that are what I look back on proudly when I actually catch scum.

And as I said, "That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote." But there is no disputing whether the vote was a joke. The debatable topic is whether the joke disguised ulterior motives. You are now committing to the view that it had ulterior motives from the get-go. Ok. Elaborate on what, in your opinion, might have lead scum!Zander to make this decision.

I have explained it multiple times. There were some people who expressing some small-ish doubts on Lenlo so he was trying to draw them into maybe voting. If he'd gotten just one person to join him on the wagon then that would be nearly half the votes needed with nobody else being close. If you're asking for info on why specifically Zander might do that then you're just out of luck because I don't know Zander at all.

Thane Vakarian · October 28, 2015

Catching up on mobile.

Between the Nomi/Dice thing I really like Nomi's points. He's going above and beyond trying to explain himself

[v] Dice [/v]

For now.

And Cory - I said last night I was there to talk in real time with you and you vanished. I also said that I would do a re-read today and pay you special mind.

Thoughts on potential v/v violence?

possible, but i doubt it. Dice would be town this game imo. Nomi, not so sure

Shad_ · October 28, 2015

I think Nomi has some sort of secret agenda, already pointing out people now as mislynch targets later. I also REALLY have the impression that it's a player we know under another name. The read on me felt like TMI for someone who just has a first game with me.

Call me suspicious, but something is off with Nomi, and at one point i'll figure out what it is

Oh you beat me to it anyway. Derp.

Taborline · October 28, 2015

I think Nomi has some sort of secret agenda, already pointing out people now as mislynch targets later. I also REALLY have the impression that it's a player we know under another name. The read on me felt like TMI for someone who just has a first game with me.

Call me suspicious, but something is off with Nomi, and at one point i'll figure out what it is

I understand that that's frustrating, I guess, but I don't see why it makes them scum.

Thane Vakarian · October 28, 2015

I think Nomi has some sort of secret agenda, already pointing out people now as mislynch targets later. I also REALLY have the impression that it's a player we know under another name. The read on me felt like TMI for someone who just has a first game with me.

Call me suspicious, but something is off with Nomi, and at one point i'll figure out what it is

Oh you beat me to it anyway. Derp.

*makes note* doesn't happen that often, lol

Thane Vakarian · October 28, 2015

I think Nomi has some sort of secret agenda, already pointing out people now as mislynch targets later. I also REALLY have the impression that it's a player we know under another name. The read on me felt like TMI for someone who just has a first game with me.

Call me suspicious, but something is off with Nomi, and at one point i'll figure out what it is

I understand that that's frustrating, I guess, but I don't see why it makes them scum.

imo it makes them unlikely-to-be-town. Which is the same as wolf if you put it black and white

Cory Caboose · October 28, 2015

I think Thane and dice are on the same team

And I think that team is the village

Shad_ · October 28, 2015

Well I had some posts queued up but I lost them so oh well. But I think the push on me is stupid but not scummy. I think it was silli that was saying they were expecting me to finally say something when I got back but I pretty clearly stated in my post that I wasn't going to actually be able to catch up until later. So now I'm gonna give you some thoughts.

I don't really set out with a concrete strategy, but the Lenlo thing was kinda just looking for actions. I wasn't entirely happy with Lenlo's reactions to it but it wasn't terrible and I have a bigger scum read anyways.

I think Zander is scum. I thought his opening post felt forced but some people said it was just him so I was like whatever. Someone else pointed this out (I forget who) but he's spent a lot of time just defending and backing people up. It's a pretty easy tactic to lay low and get on some people's good side. Zander said that he had been attacking people though, but it wasn't a high risk one. He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon. I'm gonna Vote: Zander

Things that make me say, "Hmmm..."
Penny for you thoughts?

Your argument is not very good, and Sili following you - if serious - is terribad.

I obviously disagree on the argument so we'll just agree to disagree on this point

I'm sure you do, but I don't see how. The initial post thing is whatever - if you don't know Zander, it might feel forced, but I can pull dozens of examples of posts like that where he was town. I think it was Yates that summed it up perfectly...it's 100% null for him.

Defending and backing people up is a pretty fair claim, but as I said with Pral, not sure that's really scummy. Finding townies significantly narrows down the possible pool for mafia, so there's a lot of value there, and I would say it's usually easier to find a few good town reads on D1 than a strong mafia read (barring an absolute screw up). In terms of laying low...I would fully buy that if it were true, but for Zander, specifically, this is hardly the case. The guy has over a hundred posts and has been one of the most active players in the game.

Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it.

The initial posting thing wasn't really a big part of my argument at all, it was just the event that made his posts stand out to me while I was catching up.

When I said lay low, I meant it as in he wasn't saying anything offensive that would draw attention to himself. I think he phrased his words carefully. On post 435 Pralaya posted some quotes of his that emphasize it. Note that in none of them does he say he thinks someone is town. He imo is calculating with his language, instead phrasing it as him not thinking that town or mafia (Player) would do that but he also leaves some doubt in the posts so he could possibly wiggle out of it later without looking too bad. I think it's a very clear scum tactic.

Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run.

In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote? If so, let's recalibrate a little here. Zander's initial vote on Lenlo was a joke. Just like, accept that. It's a Zander thing. Moreover, I don't think town!Zander would pause to think that putting Lenlo at 3 is a bad look. That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote. So with that in mind, here are the first three posts in which Zander converts to a serious vote. How does this impact your opinion?:

My vote on lenlo is based on this: and I've already said this in the thread.

His posts were forced, they lack content, he hadn't until just now after i implied he should, addressed his wagon in a concerted way which may or may not be scum who is playing it safe and hoping the storm will pass. I obviously, being me after all, will not like this behavior. I am glad he finally addressed his wagon.

more later when i get home.

Forced/Lacked content - I assume your talking about post #51? That post wasnt even 3 pages into the game and it was my first post. Your using that to say im forcing my posts/lacking content? Whats your opinion on Pral, Nomi or say Dice then? None of them have posted much and what they have hasnt been content. Id like to see if you have a similar opinion about them or are singling me out for some reason.

The wagon - Concerted? So a planned way? You mean I ignored something that was just two people ranting at me without telling me what for? Now that you have actually told me what im being bothered about I can answer it, but you cant expect someone to respond to something that was never mentioned.

i dont know if its just me but this post is very meh imo. im gonna have to go back and read his posts.

Page 4 - Sili goes crazy. Hes kinda spamming the thread here, most of it is pointless. Why?

Thane has 2 posts. Nothing of content in them. Checks in then checks out

Rack hasnt actually contributed at all. Hes just pushed something with no reason and then let Sili do all the work. atleast in terms of my train. He did alittle bit of poking at Zander but nothing serious. I feel like he might be pushing me early as a reaction train? Like see what people do, who jumps on a quick bandwagon, how I defend myself. Just get some overall reactions. Seeing how he plays it out will be interesting and telling imo.

Zander posted a good amount, but mostly just light hearted stuff. I want MEAT. Quick to jump on me, and stay on me I might add, when I vote Corlanna jokingly.

Clov disagrees with Rack on Zander, but thinks hes town. Also engages Sili abit. Hes not afraid to confront people

Lots of inactives this game. We have to be careful about people pushing them for weak reasons, as I think that would be an easy for the scum to rack up some easy days/kills.

Cory not saying anything meaningful, votes Sooh. Cmon Coreh. Help me out here.

Hallia soft defends me for no reason. Its not major but something worth noting imo.

Sooh pokes at Sili, doesnt back it with a vote. I dunno why but I kinda feel like she is testing the waters for a Sili push. Have nothing to back this up atm sadly.

Dice gettin friendly with Sooh.

Yates comes in guns blazing. I noticed Sili is questionable of it, but I like it.

Sili, lots of votes, lots of posts, moderate amount of content imo. Got into it with Yates. Gets pissy at me when I dismiss his and Racks push on me because it has nothing to it. I asked if he was drunk. Apparently this was stupid. Im still amused by it. After I respond to him though, he finally posts a good meaningful, more than 1 line post. I liked it.

Tab posts. Says nothing.

Shad is playin. I cant really get a read on him for some reason, but hes posting content so... yay? I wanna like him but I feel like I need something more, so I can make sure its not just me liking him cause he defended me/chatted with me.

Nomi. Votes Yates jokingly, even though Sili has been going at him. Odd?

I had quotes, but it kinda went up in flames cause DM. I have work I need to do tonight, so im just gonna post my notepad thoughts that came up as I was reading. Heres my current list.

(In not particular order)

Town:

Clov

Yates

Lenlo

Null to Town:

Rack

Shad

Sili

Null:

Hallia

Parlaya

Corlanna (Cory/Alanna)

Taborline

Dice

BFG

Nomi

Null to Scum:

Thane

Zander

Sooh

Scum:

[v]Sooh[/v]

I wanna see how this goes, and maybe shed some light on Dice and Sili in the process.

*peeks in*

wow, i was surprised that the PM arrived. Seems like we have a game after all

*hands out drinks and stuff to nibble on*

*stretches*

alright, will the wolves just out themselves so we can get wrecking?

*feels loved*

remind me not to send you chocolate in the future.....

So your top 3 Scum reads:

So you have Thane null to scum based on the above posts.

Sooh based on sussing Sili

Me for being lighthearted and voting you.

this is just a horrible list man.

Thane: Not doing anything at all. Just checking out.

Sooh: General tone and a bad feeling.

You: High post count, little content.

Disagree? Please, gimme somethin to work with.

Thane: Have you ever played with Thane before...its early D1 extremely normal for Thane atp imo

Sooh: I don't think her tone is off. bad feeling i can agree with a bit because unlike innocent till proven guilty Sooh is always wolf till proven town to me. but ive mislynched or helped to enough times to give her some more time before coming to a conclusion like that.

lolololololol----Sorry Sooh

Me: HI IM ZANDER

It almost seems like you were just picking names out of a hat.

And you complained about leaving my vote on you when you voted Corlanna first then i voted you. and your vote was there till you made the comment and voted Sooh.....

im pretty happy keeping my vote where it is brah.

I'm talking about Lenlo listed someone who had barely posted in his bottom three and Zander asked why that person stood out over others who had barely posted. Lenlo was saying that their posts just felt off and everything which I felt was a valid response since I think gut reads are a good starting point for suspicions. Anyways, Zander kept attacking Lenlo for it, asking for specifics when a gut read isn't going to get more specific than that. A gut read is a gut read. I felt as though it was a poor reason to push someone.

Yeah, I thought you were probably talking about Thane but I didn't want to assume it straight away

So here's what I'm looking at:

You said: "He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon."

Clov said: "Biggest issue is your claim of him piling on. I don't think Lenlo was really a popular wagon at all when Zander voted; he had votes from you and Sili. In a phase where it's 9 to lynch, 2 votes don't mean a whole lot. It means even less when there's five days left in the phase and neither your vote nor Sili's had much backing behind it."

You said: "Lenlo may have only had 2 votes then, but he put it to three which is a third of the vote. The rest of the votes were really spread out at the time too. Not only that, but there were a couple of people who had said things about Lenlo around there that they were iffy. It's not crazy to think that Zander was hoping to start a little run."

What's bugging me is that when Clov objected that Zander's vote was insignificant you offered a counterargument instead of saying "that's not what I was talking about". But you seem to recognize that the vote was just in jest and the "piling on" came later. It shows me you were probably thinking more about formulating a rebuttal to Clov than about your opinion of Zander.

If you assumed it was Thane (I think this was the person) then why did you write out a long response about something else earlier? If you didn't want to assume then I don't get why you wrote a long response as though we were talking about Zander's vote for someone else. And I totally disagree that it was in jest. I think that he threw down the vote on the most popular train at the time in hopes of getting people to jump on. There were other people around that time who had said some iffy things about Lenlo so imo Zander was trying to get those people to jump on the wagon.

You mean the "In red are you referring to Lenlo's vote on Laine, which prompted Zander's initial vote?" etc post? Moments like that are what I look back on proudly when I actually catch scum.

And as I said, "That definitely does not mean that scum!Zander would not see the joke as a convenient opportunity to 'start a little run' as you characterize it in your quote." But there is no disputing whether the vote was a joke. The debatable topic is whether the joke disguised ulterior motives. You are now committing to the view that it had ulterior motives from the get-go. Ok. Elaborate on what, in your opinion, might have lead scum!Zander to make this decision.

I have explained it multiple times. There were some people who expressing some small-ish doubts on Lenlo so he was trying to draw them into maybe voting. If he'd gotten just one person to join him on the wagon then that would be nearly half the votes needed with nobody else being close. If you're asking for info on why specifically Zander might do that then you're just out of luck because I don't know Zander at all.

Nah, what I'm looking for doesn't require any deep Zander meta, just whatever you are employing to construct your read. But irt "There were some people who expressing some small-ish doubts on Lenlo so he was trying to draw them into maybe voting." I'd like for you to show me what you're referring to.

Cory Caboose · October 28, 2015

Hallia/Nomi have w/w equity as well.

Hmmm

[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

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