Age of Legends [standard] Mafia - Game Over

[alannalynn]

Nolder Kivam Nyn

[Nynaeve]

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

 

This is subject to change because I haven't finished Kivam's ISO (on page 3... will prolly finish tomorrow)..... but if I have to answer right now?  Nolder, Laine, Kivam.

 

I think a big part of why I started to feel bothered by Kivam recently was because I let my tinfoil run loose. Up until D3 I felt comfortable with him (once we got past his trap on D1 :P) but I started to second guess myself. If I'm wrong... then I'll deal with it when the time comes. 

 

But I do agree with what he just said above... I don't think this game is gonna get to F3. Fingers crossed. 

[Zander?]

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

 

prolly Thane-Shad-Zander

[Kivam]

Funny thing is all three of us have Nolder as the most likely of the "remaining 3" as scum.  Kind of hope that means something.  /Surowiecki

[Kivam]

 

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

 

prolly Thane-Shad-Zander

 

[Shad_]

 

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

 

prolly Thane-Shad-Zander

 

[v]Calder[/v] only way to go bro

[Zander?]

 

 

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

 

prolly Thane-Shad-Zander

 

[v]Calder[/v] only way to go bro

 

 

[v] Calder [/v]

 

gg

[Zander?]

alright Shad who you thinking?

[Nolder]

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

 

OK EVERYONE

 

WTL in order.

I'm thinking Alanna, Nyn, Kiv.

 

Nothing has changed.

[Nolder]

Also Nolder define a "placeholder" vote.

Someone I don't want to lynch at the time.

It could be a joke, to pressure the person I'm voting, to get reactions from others, or to just be seen voting and not fence sitting.

 

In the case of Dice it was half hearted pressure. I wanted to see him post more.

In the case of Calder it was mostly joke but I also wanted reactions.

[Kivam]

This might have been asked pretty recently but I'm almost finished with something here and I want to know where you all stand as of right now.

 

Nolder Laine Kiv Nyn, what is your wtl order for the final three days?

FWIW, part of me wants you, Thane and Zander to answer that question, too - and part of me doesn't.  Points to anyone who can tell me the arguments on each side

[Shad_]

 

Also Nolder define a "placeholder" vote.

Someone I don't want to lynch at the time.

It could be a joke, to pressure the person I'm voting, to get reactions from others, or to just be seen voting and not fence sitting.

 

In the case of Dice it was half hearted pressure. I wanted to see him post more.

In the case of Calder it was mostly joke but I also wanted reactions.

 

I love you.

[Nolder]

 

 

Also Nolder define a "placeholder" vote.

Someone I don't want to lynch at the time.

It could be a joke, to pressure the person I'm voting, to get reactions from others, or to just be seen voting and not fence sitting.

 

In the case of Dice it was half hearted pressure. I wanted to see him post more.

In the case of Calder it was mostly joke but I also wanted reactions.

 

I love you.

 

Th-thanks.

 

[Shad_]

Nolder, why Nyn over Kiv?

[Nolder]

Nolder, why Nyn over Kiv?

Kiv was instrumental in lynching Crusher.

Until Kiv's trap Crusher hadn't really been on anyone's radar.

The only thing that gives me pause is Kiv was bragging about how he likes to bus and how he brought that attitude to JN.

It would still be an extremely ballsy play to be the first person to go hard against your own partner though, Occam's Razor would suggest he legitimately caught Crusher imo. 

 

Nyn doesn't have anything like that behind her. Not saying she's played bad. I don't think anyone left on the chopping board has. It's a matter of choosing people over extremely minute and mostly inconsequential details you know?

[Kivam]

 

Think I may have caught something on reread

 

 

Not sure why think any of that is definitionally not opportunistic

 

Because I feel that I've been legitimately scumhunting and making good observations.....and all you gotta say is.... oh that looks opportunistic. There's nothing about Shad's content so far that makes him look even slightly town imo. So I don't understand how you'd get that impression or why you think this is a v/v situation. But, w/e. 

 

 

[unvote] [v]Nyn[/v]

 

Nyn, the red is verbiage that it doesn't make any sense for any townie to use under any circumstances, ever. A townie doesn't "feel that" they've been legitimately scumhunting, they simply do it ... and say so straight out.

 

Reading back and seeing this again, this looks like the "wrongly fingered scum's" lament ["how dare townie scumread me for doing ABC; yeah, I am scum, but that's exactly what I'd do as town, so they're wrong!"]. 

Does Batmanning the shit out of this game count?  That is a nice little pick up that not even sure I would notice if you didn't point it out.  What I did notice was the pressure she added to the Calder/ Chad thing that did not seem like scum hunting.  Again less inquisitive that I associate with town Nyn and more antagonistic that I don't. 

 

vote nyn

 

@Nolder & Laine:  You've both played on JN, and at least one of you is town.  Considering scum had no day chat, does anything about Crusher's verbiage strike you as meaningful?

[Shad_]

Nolder
 

Proofread it?  Gtfo.  I probably contradict myself a dozen times:

 

195, 201 -- vague question, unsubstantiated vote, sort of things I might do at the start of a game as town but easy to fake, null

428 -- The TWSS vote, which was really bizarre

434 -- Clov had asked why, Nolder says a place holder mostly

442 -- Laine actually susses him for it, he says I do think it's interesting the attention this vote got but not my previous vote on Dice which had no explanation whatsoever.

~~Recall the mostly?  Basically Nolder is admitting he's behind in the game so far but he's still doing what little he can to scum hunt.  I like it.

473 -- Reads list with explanations.  Regarding my exchange with Calder, he doesn't really come out of it V/V the way Crusher and Hallia do.  He gave an actual reason--scum would have left this drop by now rather than pile attention on themselves--and a town town lean for it while admitting that he's less comfortable with Calder than with me.  He's taking a middle approach--not opportunistic--either being or faking honesty here.
-- Hallia Thane Dice need to post more, not as worried with Crusher because he said he'd post more content later.  ~~Nyn doesn't like it based on the flips, but I was thinking something similar to Nolder at the time.
-- Didn't like Nyn's AtE but in light of sussing Kivam over his 'trap' he's not ready to scum read her for it.  ~~I think that's fair.
--Thinks the "trap" was bad because the reason for sussing Nyn was lame.  And "Secondly it seemed to me Kiv was more interested in pushing Nyn's buttons than using her to trap others and just decided on that after the fact."  ~~This is sooo true and I think that whether town!Kivam caught scum or scum!Kivam bussed Crusher, he was toying with Nyn for more than just to see who bit.  He was either town trying to figure her out or scum playing who knows what game--I don't believe it was strictly intended to catch the first responder.  And let's not forget that Kivam's move with Nyn was making no progress.  He only sprung the "trap" after Clov's comment, not immediately after Crusher's.  Does this look bad for Kivam?  No, I think he could do this either alignment.  But what made it not feel scummy to me was Crusher's garbage follow-through, not the "trap" itself, so I totally get where town!Nolder who doesn't know Crusher's alignment susses Kivam here.
--Says he thinks Laine functions well on lack of sleep so he's less willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for looking weird.  ~~I think it's fair Laine meta.  The girl's an insomniac but still manages to have epic town games.  It's kind of hit or miss with her in this regard and Nolder's basically just saying he's not going to give her a free ride if she keeps it up.
--Over all, I love this post in a pre-flip context.  So did Hallia, fwiw.  Kind of WIFOM I guess, but +1 a team mate who's going to look scummy post-flip or buddy someone who is doing good analysis which leads to wrong conclusions?  I think most importantly, Hally's +1 of this looks pretty damn good for Kivam.

#505 -- To further questioning from Thane about the Calder vote he basically says 'no really, it was nothing but a placeholder'.  ~~I'm not a fan of this.  Makes me feel like I gave Nolder too much credit when I took some of his posts to be seeking reactions.

#513 -- Doesn't get Nyn's concern about his read list.  ~~I don't either.  She ignores his reasoning and just susses the resulting order.

#527 -- Doesn't think Crusher's vote was that bad--thinks lazy!Crusher would piggyback regardless of allignment.  Reiterates why he dislikes Kiv's trap.  His explanation is sound imo.  "It looked like a tactical retreat to me" is a very legitimate point and if Crusher had flipped town I'm positive that people other than Nolder would have suspected the same thing.

#534 -- In responce to Crusher sussing Nyn and criticizing people who defended her, Nolder defends her--points out that Nyn made it pretty well known she was under a lot of stress before the game started so her AtE is a little less suspicious.  ~~Maybe an odd exchange to come from w/w?

#536 -- Realizes that Crusher is criticizing Nyn for saying "go ahead and lynch me" while Crusher's doing the exact same thing, and calls him out for it.  I love this.

#556 -- In a few earlier posts he mentioned keeping his vote on Kivam and watching how things unfold for a while.  In 556, when people are challenging him for voting Kivam, he says: "I guess that makes more sense. You don't think it's enough to vote him over while I do.  Personally in a deadline game I feel you should always vote with your feelings since there's no consequence by not doing so.  It's not like the person will be accidentally hammered."  ~~Solid answer imo, doesn't push an agenda, doesn't defend Crusher, doesn't back down about Kivam when it gets negative feedback

#610 -- Nyn had claimed Nolder is sussing Kiv for shallow reasons and it's a mistake for him to read Crush as town as a consequence because Kiv/Crush could be w/w.  Nolder responds with no, I only think Crush is town if Kiv is scum.  Independently I'm kind of null on him.  ~~Nolder is missing Nyn's point here.  It would look bad if Kiv/Crush/Nolder was a possible team, but they aren't, so I'm kind of null on it.

#621 -- Further disconnect between Nyn and Nolder, feels like both misunderstand each other.

#770 -- Gets nervous when he sees that I'm the leading train because he's been town reading me.  He's considering switching to Crusher because the Kivam thing isn't happening and, while he thinks Kiv is more likely scum between the two, either flip is more useful than a Shad flip.  Asks one more time if anyone will consider Kiv.  When he doesn't get support, says "Let's tie the trains" and votes Crusher.

#814 -- Nyn asked why Nolder switcher to Crusher instead of Laine ~~kind of a silly question imo since Nolder made his reason for switching pretty clear~~ Nolder explained that Laine was looking better after she got some sleep ~~continuity here.  That's good~~ says he's more interested in competing trains between me and Crusher.

#960 -- He's confused why Clov would clear him for voting Crusher, explains that he mainly wanted to tie the trains because he thinks the situation can reveal a lot and resolve one of the two 'feuds' going on in the game.  ~~Well, strictly tying the trains is kind of a disconnect.  It implies he might have voted me to do the same, and I don't like that because why would you ever vote a town read over a null read?  Is he dropping a hint to Hallia in the absence of scum QT?  But on the other hand, here's Clov basically saying "A Crusher scum flip clears Nolder" and Nolder is arguing against this?  Like, that's a pretty gutsy scum move.  If I'm scum and people want to clear me town, booyah.  #960 can be read scummy but I think it comes from town more often than not.

#997 -- This post is really goofy.  Clov says a Crusher scum flip clears Nolder town but a Crusher town flip doesn't reveal jack about Nolder.  There is nothing remotely ambiguous about it.  Nolder somehow gets confused, not once but twice, and keeps thinking Clov is saying that if Crusher flips town Nolder must be scum.  ~~I do not get how Nolder can misunderstand Clov here.  But.  Scum!Nolder knows Crusher ain't flipping town.  If Nolder is faking his misunderstanding of Clov to make himself look clueless about Crusher's alignment, that's a pretty damn smooth move.  Like, seriously Nolder, if you're scum you are playing way better than anyone is giving you credit for.

Here's the post chain:

 

 

 

 

 

Wait I don't understand.
 
Clov is clearing me because I voted Crusher?
I just like tie trains. It's always extremely telling to see who votes where.
This one is particularly juicy because of the Shad/Calder and Kiv/Nyn/Crusher feuds.
We might not lynch mafia today but I think it almost guarantees mafia tomorrow.

 
No.  I cleared you of being mafia with Crusher.  I like his odds of flipping red a ton, and if I'm right, then you're golden.  If he flips town, it doesn't really mean a damn thing for your alignment.

 

Oh it's an either or thing. I see.

 

 
....
 

 

You're saying if Crusher is Red I'm probably town and if Crusher is blue I'm probably Red...right? That's not right?

 

 

#1008 Calls out Laine for voting Nolder so late in the phase, notes that it accomplishes nothing and if she wants to lynch him she's going to have to wait until D2 at this point.  ~~I agree.

#1063 Laine explains that she doesn't like either train due to lack of movement from anyone but Clov and she wants to lynch Nolder because his "let's leave it to random" approach is scummy.  Nolder isn't having any of that crap:

 

 

 

so 2 of ure top 3 were on shad all the time. cLOV ISA THE 5TH RANK AND HE COMES OVER AFTER AJ(STOOPID CAPS) but you go nolder but say the people you town read are on crusher.....
 
 
 
not getting it

I ALSO SAID I FEEL LIKE THE LYNCH IS TOO EASY BECAUSE THERE IS NO MOVEMENT (besides Clov). Do you NOT see how that is suspicious? What conclusions would you draw from two lynch trains sitting there for this amount of time/ Do you think if one or the other was mafia there would be more movement in another direction? THIS Is why I voted Nolder, he's being scummy. He's wanting to leave it up to random. That is SCUMMY.

 

That's a lie. It's not what I want at all. And if you're going to twist the situation like that then double down and say Clov wants random too. What he did was not much different from what I did.

 

 

~~Pretty solid call-out if Laine is scum imo.

#1074

 

 

Chris did it to make ME make a decision. YOU did it because YOU don't want to make a decision bc both trains might be town

I didn't say anything about the trains. I did it to see who would vote where with the trains tied and deadline approaching.
Tomorrow I'm going to write what I think about the votes that were cast after I made my move.

 

 

~~Laine looks pretty bad throughout this exchange.  She's been misrepping Nolder and he's coming back with all the right answers.

#1223 -- Surprised Kiv's trap worked, still doesn't understand it but can't complain about the outcome.  ~~General thought at this point regarding Nolder's disregard for Kiv bus potential.  I find it odd given that they seem to have played together a lot.  I didn't think Kiv bussed Crusher because it felt clean, not fabricated.  I'm not as sure about that now, but Nolder was so convinced it was a dirty move that he wanted to lynch Kiv pre-flip.  If I were in Nolder's shoes, I wouldn't feel better about Kiv at all after the flip.  But similar to the Clov issue, scum!Nolder was in a unique position to justify further suspicion of Kivam after the flip, so why would he town clear him for it?  This is another case where scummy actions serve an anti-scum agenda, and at this point any of you who have a decent grasp of Nolder's scum meta might be able to provide insight.

But there is also "RIP Dice. My guess is they either thought he was Seer or killed him for being low post count."  This add-on scores a -100000, give or take.    I'll look to see how he treats Zander moving forward but this is a pretty garbage statement.

#1224 -- Ok, he's expanding a bit here.  It's not that Kiv can't bus, but that it didn't go down like a bus.  I feels that Crusher seemed honestly ticked off about getting caught.  Nolder calls me locktown for the first time.  ~~To be fair, it's right after the flip and he was already town reading me, so competing scum trains was off his radar, but lock town is a stretch.

#1225 -- Nyn says she's uncomfortable with Nolder making a big deal about being the tie-breaking vote that got Crusher lynched instead of Shad.  ~~Kind of weird, don't think Nolder says anything even close to that~~ Nolder corrects her, says he tied the trains and did so on purpose.

#1226 -- soft suss of Zander

#1227 -- Disagreeing with Nyn about what he would do as scum with Shad and Crusher ~~null~~ Then the business of voting patterns being a bad way to clear people.  ~~It's odd.  Nyn brought it up again today so I'll get to it further on.

#1229 -- soft suss of Zander

#1230 -- Nolder is getting pretty frustrated that Nyn keeps misunderstanding him.  ~~There is definitely consistancy in Nolder's line of reasoning.  I can see how he gets from point A to point B and the story doesn't change under pressure.

#1231 -- Yet another post where he fails to understand something when the correct interpretation benefits him. ~~Is it getting too common?  Like, would scum!Nolder fake confusion on these topics on the grounds that scum would never do that?

#1233 -- Vote analysis.  Cool with Clov's vote, questions for Hallia, suspicious of Laine, likes Clov's shenanigans with forcing Laine to make a decision, loves AJ's vote, thinks Laine might be twtbaw, biggest concern is with Thane not contributing while present at deadline.  Follows this up with wtl Thane and Hallia, Laine and Zander are iffy, everyone else is in the town pile.  ~~I understand where he reaches everything here but Calder.  Calder became town without explanation.  Nolder's failure to acknowledge that Zander was probably shc bugs me, especially when Nolder indirectly downplayed the possibility via his ridiculous "Dice might have just been a zero-info NK".  In fact, ugh, that earlier comment on why Dice was NK'd is worse and worse every time I think about it.  Suppose scum were dumb enough to actually kill someone who they didn't think was seer but who didn't fakepeek scum.  It's still not a no-info NK.  9 times in 10 Dice was going to enter D2 guns blazing at Hallia imo.

#1235 -- votes Thane

#1248 -- Laine had asked Nolder about Calder's unexplained move on his read list.  ~~/highfive Laine if you're town~~  Now Nolder is claiming Shad/Calder fight was V/V with a bit more conviction than the previous day.  ~~Why?

#1250 -- Happy that someone (Nyn) is finally accepting that Nolder's vote is not alignment indicative.  Disagrees with Nyn's point that Crusher would have gotten involved in the Shad/Calder fight if we were v/v, on the grounds that Crusher gave up.  ~~Bad answer.  Crusher gave up afterwards.  Not terribly distant from the truth though in so far as I think Crusher pretty much gave up when he received his role pm.  (No offense Crush and I don't mean to sound harsh, just think it kind of knocked the wind out of your sails)

#1274 -- Nyn corrects him, Nolder concedes that she's right.

#1277 -- He's getting pretty annoyed that people still don't see his point that his vote was null.  ~~This honestly does kind of jive with his argument (later) that votes don't clear town but they do catch scum.  And considering Hallia bussed, he was right about it in this game.

#1280 -- Considers dropping Calder back down based on Nyn's observation that he is avoiding making reads and doesn't want to discuss certain players.

#1287 -- Starts to criticize Calder's behavior

#1289 -- Asks Thane why he's hunting the seer instead of wolves.  ~~Good question tbh; it was the only scummy thing Thane's done this game imo.

#1298 -- Tries to get Calder to participate by threatening to lynch him.

#1311 -- Tries to draw the conversation off of Calder and onto Thane and Hallia ~~Would be a pretty bewildering move for Nolder to try and pull his scum mate back into the PoE when Calder is begging for a mislynch.

#1357 -- "Officially" moving Calder from town to "wildcard".  Still hesitant to go full scum on him given how brazen Calder's been.  ~~There were a number of smaller posts I didn't comment on up to this point, but basically Nolder worked his way into a scummier read of Calder very naturally, it wasn't just a switch out of the blue.

#1388 -- When everyone else is calling for a speed lynch he wants to go to full deadline.  Why?

#1389 -- Well for time to prod Hallia, for one thing.

#1395 -- Speculates whether Hallia and Calder could be scummates

a few posts pass where he questions Hallia

#1404 -- Clov confirms Calder has kind of avoided Hallia all game but has her at the bottom of his PoE, that's Nolder's catalyst for the vote.

#1413 -- Responds to a question about his concern with Thane, says it feels like Thane is fence-sitting and that's a common scum tactic.

#1531 -- Laine complains that no one else sees Thane's scumminess, Nolder's like dude I voted him with you and you jumped ship, Laine says it doesn't feel right being on a train with someone she's scum reading, Thane/Nolder can't both be scum and she needs to figure out which it is.  Nolder gives a decent answer: "Odd? Maybe a little. As long as I'm not voting with several people I'm scum reading it usually doesn't bother me. Either I'm getting teammates to bus each other or I'm misreading someone. Either way we find out after a flip. That's how I look at these situations anyway."

#1600 -- When people start CFDing at the end of D2 Nolder votes Hallia first.  I know, the whole thing becomes a joke, but Clov and AJ already on Hallia, given the atmosphere, I dunno.  Nolder literally tied Hallia with Calder when he made that vote and didn't start jokingly voting around until AJ moved his vote back over to Calder 8 minutes later.  Chances of things turning serious and Hallia getting lynched over Calder there were a long shot.  Maybe I just like to play it safe, but I wouldn't have gone there in scum!Nolder's shoes.

He makes two posts sussing Thane, rest of D2 is play.

#1784 -- he kicks off D3 immediately voting Hallia, agrees with Nyn that AJ probably died because Hallia's scum, says Hallia and Thane are the only players that should be open for discussion D3 and he goes for the one that turns out to be scum.  Hallia only had 1 vote at the time.  ~~ +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000

#1794 -- Acknowledges the SHC factor on Thane after Nyn explains it to him.  Did he simply miss this on Zander D2?  Like, D2 Nolder totally ignores the SHC factor with Zander, gives a stupid reason why scum might not have been seeker hunting, and has Zander in his 'not lynching today but on the table later' pile.  When Nyn points it out with Thane, the only viable counterwagon to scum!Hallia, Nolder's high fiving her for the catch.  It makes me think Nolder just honestly didn't think about it irt Zander and missed some posts.  He'd never actually been called out for continuing to suss Zander iirc so it's entirely plausible.

#1795 -- With SHC factored in wonders who Hallia's partner is, immediate thought is Laine, plans to look into the vote counts again.

#1855 -- Does look into it and...  susses Thane.    But at this point it doesn't feel like a serious suss, more like frustration that Thane was letting himself become lynchbait.  Happy that Thane's at least voting Hallia now.

#1922 -- Gut is still screaming Hallia and Thane but he knows Thane can't realistically be scum.  POE for Hallia's partner is Laine, Zander , Kivam, and me.  Hasn't really sussed Laine since first half of D1, Zander being kind of useless, Kivam can't help that he's not around but bragging about being the bus master doesn't help him, and I had my scuffle with Calder--but he still feels I'm town.  ~~Dude does not get it with Zander, and honestly I think that is town.  Scum would be more careful about knowing who they can and cannot realistically mislynch.

#1959 -- Basically on board with Clov's master plan except for Zander, seems like Nolder would lynch him F3.  Awkwardly enough, I noticed Nyn doesn't fully understand Zander's locktown position either.  ~~Wish I had a gif for this.

#1964 -- Finally gets it with Zander.

#2222 -- Would lynch Laine today, Kiv is clear unless he bussed Crusher, doesn't think a bus makes sense when Crusher was off everyone's radar until Kiv turned on him.

#2234 -- Lynch order is Laine, Nyn, Kiv ~~He kicked off the day only considering Laine and Kiv but he'd lynch Nyn over Kiv.  Nyn has been off his radar all game.  I recognize Nolder's responding to a plain 'wtl order' question but Nyn at 2 instead of 3 requires a pretty clear explanation.

#2237 -- Zander says hmmmm...., Nolder says "I know that's not what you wanted to hear but I can't shake the bad feeling I got from her at EOD1.  She wasn't my first pick but all other options have been exhausted." ~~not sure that's what Zander's hmmmmming about.

#2248 -- Unvotes Laine while he thinks about the exchange between Nyn and Kivam. ~~fair enough

#2347 -- Laine brings up Nolder's eary votes on Dice and Kiv again ~~petty imo~~ but Nolder says they were only placeholder votes.  ~~I wonder if Nolder and I think of that term differently.  He originally voted Dice at least to get him to talk--Calder he was less clear about but he definitely put thought into how people responded to that vote.  I would take them as reaction votes, not placeholders like when I voted Kivam yesterday.
Second half of post, says Laine's scum read on him is pretty shallow.  Her wtl on him all game without any reasons beyond POE and gut is a large part of why he's scum reading her. ~~This is fair.

#2353 IRT Nyn's ISO:
 

Nyn I think you're seeing things that aren't there on me. When you're rereading someone it can be easy to fall into a trap of thinking they talk about something a lot when it's not the case. Apparently I stated that Shad was town more than a few times. Well ok? You're reading almost 120 pages worth of gameplay condensed. I stated my reads on everyone every day. As my reads updated or it was relevant to a conversation I would say I think so and so is town or I'm leaning null or whatever. I can appreciate that my gameplay surrounding Crusher wasn't so great. I didn't understand the trap Kiv was running and at the time yeah I thought he was scum. I was never sure it was Crusher until he flipped scum. Ok so that's all on me. But attacking me because I said Shad was town too many times for your liking is just bizarre. As for the rest of that stuff...ehh some of it's fair and some of it's silly. I doubt you want to argue about it this late in the game so I'll leave it be.

~~I think Nolder's making a valid point here and I didn't agree with a lot of Nyn's assessment of him in her ISO.

#2354 -- This is where the voting pattern thing is finally made really clear.  He's saying they don't clear people but they can catch scum.  ~~Eeeeehhh... it matches up with why he didn't like people town reading him for lynching Crusher.  It matches up with why he didn't give Hallia a pass.  Is it totally consistent?  He gave AJ a huge town advantage for voting when he did.  Yeah, it's at least not consistant with AJ.  Is this even relevant though?  Like how I often say I think trying to analyze why a player was NK'd is useless but then I turn around and do it from time to time.  None of us are as consistant as we like to blieve.

#2355

 

 

 

Kivam are you doing the thing?

 
 
Nolder, this post interests me.  Explain please.

 

It was meaningless. I was testing Kivam, seeing if he would play along or not to get a better read.
In my mind a mafia would challenge that kind of post and say "what thing?! no I'm not doing anything!" or somesuch because if they play along and don't know the game it could come back to bite them. A townie on the other hand would want to make scum nervous or act like they know more then they do and would play along. Kiv playing along was a small point in his favor.

 

 

~~I like this answer.

#2360

 

I don't think I ever said obvious town when referring to Shad did I? My read on Shad comes mostly from experience and gut. Remember I originally called Shad/Calder town on town violence and only voted Calder after he started trolling the game. Yes my content on Shad was static. I'd written him off as town and nothing he said after bothered me. I mean maybe that's sloppy play but when I write someone off as town I don't usually pay much attention to them anymore because I'm trying to hunt the mafia.
 
Fair enough on Crusher I can't really argue with that. All I can tell you is I was confused about Kiv's trap thing at the time which is what prompted me to tie the trains. I don't like being confused with bad reads so I wanted something better. And honestly I think it worked. Since EOD1 I feel like my gameplay improved dramatically in this game and honestly whether I'm lynched or we even end up losing I'm happy with how I've played this game. Not my best game ever but pretty solid still imo.
 
I don't know what to tell you about Thane. I STILL feel like he should be the last mafia. His gameplay this game has been pretty bad. I don't want to make him feel bad or pick a fight but if circumstances were different he would be my pick for lynch still. That's all there is to that.
 
re: Hallia
IIRC I was voting her and then we switched to Calder. It had nothing to do with AJ. If Calder had kept his cool Hallia would have been lynched before AJ died.

 

~~Possible disconnect here, pretty positive being on a competing train to a scum lunch is what had me locktown for Nolder because he first started saying it without explanation right after the flip.

#2361 4:21 pm Nolder unvotes Laine, wants to look at the Nyn/Kivam feud first.  7:24 am, Nolder doesn't remember Kivam self-voting, which was the main talking point of a lot of the exchange.  tsk tsk tsk

#2381 ~~I initially said this post troubled me, but I didn't say why.  It's because initially I don't feel like you project me/Calder as v/v with the sort of conviction seen out of Hallia and Crusher.  You made individual reads, and drew different conclusions for each of us.  You gave me a strong v read, Calder you were a little more iffy on--more of a gun to your head v than a vip ticket to the cool kids club.  On ISO I see you nudged him up over time--though his progression was the one read of yours that didn't come with an explanation.  But I dunno, I see no reason for you to move Calder from nullish town to a stronger position at the start of D2 regardless of allignment.

#2382

 

 

Myabe I'm overthinking it. But at this point.... I'm giving out my thoughts regardless of what anyone might think. If you don't agree (which in Nolder's case... he obviously would't). Then that's fine too. Still gonna give out my thoughts.

I just don't understand why you think there was some kind of conscious effort on the part of mafia to stay away from Calder/Shad.
In my experience most mafia teams are not that well coordinated they mostly just talk about power reads and who they want to kill.
And this team has had even less coordination than most due to no day chat.
 
All I'm saying is if mafia were all staying away from Calder/Shad they most likely made that decision independently, meaning there is no connection for you to find.

 

 

~~This is absolutely correct.

#2406 votes Laine

And then the answers to my last two questions:
 

Sorry I did miss that yeah.
 
Experience tells me that fights that happen early and with conviction are usually town on town violence.
Mafia don't normally stick their necks out so early in the game for exactly this reason.
If they can get townies to fight they can just sit back and let one lynch the other.
 
Of course there's always exceptions and every game is unique but I find that it's true often enough to let it shape my opinions.

~~A lot of times when I ask questions I have an optimal answer in mind and a range of lesser ones I also accept as townish.  I rarely get the former, but I did here.  Bravo.
 

 

Also Nolder define a "placeholder" vote.

Someone I don't want to lynch at the time.
It could be a joke, to pressure the person I'm voting, to get reactions from others, or to just be seen voting and not fence sitting.
 
In the case of Dice it was half hearted pressure. I wanted to see him post more.
In the case of Calder it was mostly joke but I also wanted reactions.

 

~~And pretty much the same thing here.

 

[Shad_]

Like, ok, in summary:

Nolder's town.

erm

The dude fought for Kivam over Crusher in the trap scenario.  The reasons he gave, yeah, they look bad post-flip, but in context it rings really honest to me.  Let's face it, not everyone is going to get it right.  Kivam pushed Nyn.  Town doing it for info or scum doing it for whatever.  Nyn came out looking good, Crusher piggybacked Kivam, Kivam kept on questioning Nyn and when Clov was like "dude Crusher looks like shit for that vote" Kivam switched gears and "springs the trap".  By the time I looked at it Crusher had already OMGUS'd, and my god was it a bad OMGUS, so Kivam looked good.  But if you read it all in sequence, no man, Nolder had really solid grounds for sussing Kivam D1.

As Crusher continues to act scummy, Nolder's read progresses.  He makes points like Crusher's AtE looking worse than Nyn's AtE.  This is before Crusher is guaranteed to get lynched.  He votes Crusher when Kivam isn't going anywhere.  Could be bussing I guess.  I mean, he couldn't have voted me instead, given I was strong town for him.  Could he?  Well, he starts with the whole wanting to tie the trains thing--more info in it.  That's sound imo.  Scum could use it as an excuse to switch to me, maybe, or better yet they could take a stronger stance, you know, I think Kivam is scum but I feel very confident Kiv/Crush aren't v/v, where Shad/Cald it's less conclusive.  Instead he goes for this tying the trains thing.  Hell, scum!Nolder could have at least waited to see if Crusher picked up votes and then "tied the trains" by voting me.  But no, he takes the least optimal scum route, helping kill mafia while minimizing the credit he earns from it.  And he questions Clov like, wait wait, are you saying if this dude flips town you're going to lynch me next?  (Misunderstands Clov in an odd way, yes, but) it's a pretty clever fake if he's scum.  More likely to come from town who smells a rat--like, you know, when I wanted to CFD AJ because he said he'd lynch me next if Crush flipped town.

His reads all come with reasons.  Good reasons that nevertheless protect Crusher, and Hallia hops in to compliment him on them.  The only read he's given in the game that confused me was bumping Calder up going into D2.  I still don't get that.  It's one thing in 124 pages.  D2 when everyone's pushing for a speed lynch he's like "No, let's take this time to figure out the third scum.  I think it's Thane or Hallia."  D3 he dives at Hallia and eats up an excuse to never lynch Thane.

Today he's aaahhh... maybe said a few things that gave me pause, like not remembering that he said I was locktown.  I don't know, when I'm scum I go "did I say that?" and ISO myself to prep an excuse.  When I'm town idgaf and if I misquote myself so be it.  It pinged me when he said his read on me came from experience, because we have very little experience together.  His answer was sublime.  It also pinged me in iso when he was characterizing the Dice and Calder votes as placeholders.  I asked him to define placeholders, his answer put every piece right back in line.

Now we get into today, everyone's wtl is Nolder, Otherguy, Nyn.  Obviously Nolder's is going to differ, but he has the balls to put Nyn over Kivam and his reason for it makes sense in an "it's 124 pages into the game and I've accepted that the Kiv trap was legit" world.  Do you think scum are more likely to express a different opinion here, or piggyback two town so they don't stand out from the crowd?  Oh what's that, you want to vote this person too?  For the same reasons?  Welcome to the bandwagon.  It's the safer play.  It's not necessarily the optimal play, but it's the safer play.  The optimal play, well that's interesting, but I'll talk about that later.

I think Nolder's town.  This hasn't exactly been a spectacular game for me so maybe DT's laughing at me right now, but whatever.  I'm not voting him.  You all can.
 

[Nolder]

Holy...

 

That's a lot to read.

[Zander?]

@ Shad great job!!!!

 

so the cliff notes from it: Not gonna vote Nolder then?

 

lololololol

[Nynaeve]

Shad, I'm half asleep so I'll give your posts a more in-depth read on the morrow.  But on the surface, I think it's fair to say we disagree quite a bit in regards to Nolder's content. I think it's on a bigger scale than just that.... ie I think that part of why I've been scum reading you the majority of the game is because our outlook is so different. I can't really explain it. It's sort of the d/c you and Calder seemed to experience. I agreed with Calder a lot in your exchanges on D1 because he made sense to me... where's you didn't, really.

 

I respect your take and I can tell you've put a lot of thought into it. But at the same time, I disagree. Once I complete my ISO on Kiv tomorrow, I'm pretty sure my vote is gonna end on Nolder (bar some divine revelation). Factoring in all the rereads I've been doing... I think he's the most likely to flip scum out of the three. 

[Shad_]

Shad, I'm half asleep so I'll give your posts a more in-depth read on the morrow.  But on the surface, I think it's fair to say we disagree quite a bit in regards to Nolder's content. I think it's on a bigger scale than just that.... ie I think that part of why I've been scum reading you the majority of the game is because our outlook is so different. I can't really explain it. It's sort of the d/c you and Calder seemed to experience. I agreed with Calder a lot in your exchanges on D1 because he made sense to me... where's you didn't, really.

 

I respect your take and I can tell you've put a lot of thought into it. But at the same time, I disagree. Once I complete my ISO on Kiv tomorrow, I'm pretty sure my vote is gonna end on Nolder (bar some divine revelation). Factoring in all the rereads I've been doing... I think he's the most likely to flip scum out of the three. 

 

Ultimately if we stick to the plan we can't lose.  I just like to be right so I'm trying a little harder than I really need to at this point.  I'm cool with any lynch order as long as Zander promises to not tinfoil at F3.

[Nynaeve]

Ultimately if we stick to the plan we can't lose.  I just like to be right so I'm trying a little harder than I really need to at this point.  I'm cool with any lynch order as long as Zander promises to not tinfoil at F3.

 

I agree. And I can relate. I also like to be right. lol    And ftr....the fact that you don't need to but you're still doing it says a lot. 

[Nynaeve]

As far as Zander goes... lol....

 

 

Zander's gonna Zander? Whatever that means. Heh.

[Zander?]

 

Shad, I'm half asleep so I'll give your posts a more in-depth read on the morrow.  But on the surface, I think it's fair to say we disagree quite a bit in regards to Nolder's content. I think it's on a bigger scale than just that.... ie I think that part of why I've been scum reading you the majority of the game is because our outlook is so different. I can't really explain it. It's sort of the d/c you and Calder seemed to experience. I agreed with Calder a lot in your exchanges on D1 because he made sense to me... where's you didn't, really.

 

I respect your take and I can tell you've put a lot of thought into it. But at the same time, I disagree. Once I complete my ISO on Kiv tomorrow, I'm pretty sure my vote is gonna end on Nolder (bar some divine revelation). Factoring in all the rereads I've been doing... I think he's the most likely to flip scum out of the three. 

 

Ultimately if we stick to the plan we can't lose.  I just like to be right so I'm trying a little harder than I really need to at this point.  I'm cool with any lynch order as long as Zander promises to not tinfoil at F3.

 

 

 

As far as Zander goes... lol....

 

 

Zander's gonna Zander? Whatever that means. Heh.

 

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