Ragnarok Game Thread - Game Over, Town Wins!

[Taborline]

Wish pt 1

 

 

stfu lenore

...Cory...

Well, I'm here, after being drained from extroverting.

A few observations:

Sili seems to get serious way too quickly. That just happened in the last game we were playing in. And you wanna know why? He was distancing from me, who was joke voting.

Possible correlations between Ocicat mistake/joke vote and Sili calling him out on it? Perhaps.

I, for one, don't know how Ocicat plays. I'll defer to Alette when trying to read him, but I prefer to assign null (leaning towards scummy) for anyone I don't know well. Lurking and not posting doesn't seem indicative of alignment, and neither does not knowing who is even playing. I make that mistake a lot. But default: *narrows eyes* Null-scummy until you prove yourselves unblemished.

Areas of confusion: don't get drunk Cory.

Possibilities: Eldrich possible Loki because of his disappointment at Kivam revealing Loki win con on thread-> argument espoused by a few, like John Snow.

Does JS drop the argument because Eldrich is too experienced to make that kind of slip? Hmm. Why the focus on Loki? I would think that scum would be more concerned about eliminating Loki than town, as someone previously mentioned.

^My recap, from what I remember.

 

 

Wish starts off looking at Sili, saying they have just played before and puts their interaction from last game out there for consideration. Brings up correlation between Ocicat and Sili for this reason, but can't tell about Ocicat having never played with him before.

 

Brings up possibility of Eldrick being Loki from disappointment, notes John Snow by name as espousing this theory, though others do too. Then proposes a reason why JS dropped the argument on Eldrick is Eldrick is too experienced. But JS says that Eldrick is NOT experienced: "On the other hand, Eld is new enough for it to be a legit slip." (this post). It seems odd to me, as JS outright says why he's possibly dropping it for now, though it could just be an honest mistake as she says she's doing this from memory.

 

The next posts prod at Sili:

 

 

A reaction test. No particular reason.

Poking randomly without knowing what you're looking for won't be as productive if you have an idea/reason for what you're doing. Or does it not matter, since you don't need to know the reaction to know? :3

 

 

 

 

More about feeling someone out than having a specific reaction i look for.

Could you explain this? What does this "feeling someone out" mean?

 

 

 

 

Specifically i wanted to see what hed do if i looked to be more suspicious of celeste. I wanted to know if he would let me tunnel her or if he would defemd her.

Don't think he did either? What do you think now?

 

 

Which, considering she came into the game mentioning her way of reading Sili, makes sense. If you just played with someone and got a feel for their style, wanting to suss them out quickly this time is a good option. Could be distancing again, but I read Sili as Town so far.

 

 

Dunno. As i said multiple times im stuck.

Alright. What do you think of the John Snow/Eldrich interaction?

 

 

Asks about JS/Eldrick, again, makes sense considering the previous post questioning JS' motives.

 

 

@Celeste - if it's easier to tell his alignment when he's pressured, why would you give him an out right now vs. Putting more pressure on him?

Agree with this.
I'm willing to put Ocicat between a rock and a hard place, even if he's Celeste's offsite friend (another forum, not IRL).

I am curious as to why Sili moved Celeste and I lower down the scum list and Ocicat up higher.

Ocicat, what would you say that your strategy for this game is? I don't know your meta, because during the only game I played with you, you posted only once. How do you think that you are contributing to this game/being pro town?

Actually, good question for everyone. Answer? Thanks

Ugh. My back hurts. I'm like an old crone.

 

 

The first part of this post could be read as Wish trying to make up for Celeste's mistake, likewise distancing from Ocicat (bolded part). Interesting, given she mentions that Sili could be the one distancing from Ocicat in the first post.

 

More questioning of Sili, which is keeping with the line of inquiry so far.

[John Snow]

Sorry guys, got busy the last two days. Just caught up. Going to make some food then post my MQ with thoughts. 

 

Also chuckling at everyone trying to meta me. It's cute. 

[Kivam]

VOTE COUNT

 

 

Eldrick (2) - Lenlo, WISHLeste

Ocicat (3) - Tina, Dice, Eldrick

Pral (4) - KeyBOOSE, Leelou, Ocicat, Sooh

Verbal (2) - Sili, Talya

WishLeste (1) - Mish

 

Not voting (5): Songstress, Verbal, Taborline, Pralaya, John Snow

 

9 to lynch

 

DEADLINE IS NOON EASTERN (GMT - 4) ON WEDNESDAY. No Majority = No lynch

 

[Taborline]

Wish pt 2

 

 

 

Ocicat, what would you say that your strategy for this game is?

My approach in general, simply put: Look for contradictions, logic errors, and slips, point them out, and identify and eliminate scum.

Yo. Could you answer my other question?

Going to keep all your answers in my memory bank, BTW.

 

 

Continuing questioning Oci, which is null.

 

 

 

My approach in general, simply put: Look for contradictions, logic errors, and slips, point them out, and identify and eliminate scum.

 
The major issue with this is that villagers contradict themselves, have faulty reasoning, are downright hypocritical and make the same grammar/wording/syntax errors/"SHROOPs" that a wolf has the "potential" to make. Someone literally "slipping" is absurdly rare and afaict only happens to people who are very new or are very inebriated.
 
But that's a story for another time, friend.
 
I just try not to lynch villagers.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. Often, scum makes more sense than town. I try to lynch Celeste always because she doesn't make sense to me -- as I've already mentioned many times in the last game. And Celeste rand luck = perma VT ....

Other examples of players who don't make sense as town: many. One friend makes no sense as town and a lot more sense as scum.

That's not to say that people don't scum slip. I would just advise, as Cory did, to not be too gungho on people who don't make sense. I just tunnel them instead, lol.

 

 

This comes off trying to say more than it does, but I find it very difficult to read, and she admits to not having really said anything in her next post. There is quite a bit of fluff between this post and the next game related post.

 

 

The more I think about it, the worse I feel about Oci and Wisheste. In hindsight Celeste randomly calling me out feels weird... It wouldn't have bothered me if it was a player that was used to playing with me. But I'd already reminded people in the thread I wasn't gonna be on my normal activity this weekend. Makes it seem like she didn't really read my post. It was weird. That combined with she trying to make it seem like I said something I didn't... I feel very uncomfortable about her now.

 

Then with Oci several times linking me and Celeste, and him defending them, it makes it seem to me like they are mafia together, and he's setting me up to look bad if they get lynched.

 

I will refer you to the post Tina's already made instead of pulling the same quotes: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95348-ragnarok-game-thread-d1/?p=3538339

 

This does not read like town and town to me. It's either mafia buddies, or one mafia one Loki. But I'm thinking buddies.

 

Oci is the one that makes me feel most iffy for trying to tie me and Celeste together like that, so that's where my vote will go atm. But I'm more than willing to switch to Wisheste too.

 

[v] Oci[/v]

???

If we're scum buddies <3 (Oci and Celeste/moi), then why would you look bad if we get lynched? Wouldn't it give you town credit if you flip us and we're scum?

 

Also, hola. First day of classes over. I got some blisters from wearing slightly uncomfortable shoes. :/

 

Celeste has mod duties elsewhere, so it's my job to post atm. Sorry for being MIA. RL, etc.

 

 

Having just been through Oci and Celeste/Wish, I actually find Mish's response here to be pretty strong, but will need to dig that up again. Wish's tone here still confuses me, but doesn't get rid of a feeling that distancing could be happening from Ocicat.

[Taborline]

I think I need to step away for a second

[John Snow]

Ok, I see a decent case, and I'm getting bored. Vote: Talya​, ​​although anyone on Sili's list is fair game​.

 

Disgusting. 

 

-snip-

 

On a side note, I'm getting really annoyed by these "For X's eyes only" spoilers. Can we please stop?

 

 

Agreed. 

 

Yo eldrick hypothesizing about lokis pov when someone says something queer about lokis wincon isnt unusual. In fact loki isnt like to respond to a conversation so close to the heart without a plan although thats just a guess.

 

Eldrick. U r loki arent you? Which is why you are projecting and why your reads are floating. Does a town start planning to reaction test for loki days before game start when loki isnt the real opponent?

 

Doubt it.

 

Loki's not likely to even bring it up. It just brings undue attention. 

 

JS, I recall you saying we haven't interacted yet. Let's interact.

 

What are your thoughts on the game so far? Who is town or scum, and why? What has caught your attention?

 

I'll post a reads list later. Doubt you're Loki. 

 

I forgot Pral was playing. He made what? 1 post? 

 

Sounds like Pral. 

 

 

 

[v]Pral[/v]

Been patient, losing patience

 

Why losing patience?  You've played with Pral enough to know that he very rarely posts at all on Day 1 as either alignment.

A lot of people have been villagery which forces him lower

 

Know he's inactive a great deal but that doesn't mean he's any more likely to be a villager

 

It's been four days and I'd rather kill dead weight with wolf equity than anyone else aorn

 

 

Totally aboard the Pral train. If he's town, he's not going to vet himself or really help town, from my experience with him. Rather lynch higher % scum, I'll have to see where my reads come up after a couple ISOs. 

 

Hence ---->  ?

 

Darthe isn't here though

 

-snip-

 

**Also, interesting thing. JS accuses me of misrepping him. Idk how I did that. I'm pretty sure that JS dropped the argument because of Eldrick's levels of experience.

 

 

a) Read my posts. I make it clear. Either read the whole post or just admit you're scum already. 

b) Yeah pretty much. I doubt an experienced player would make that mistake. 

 

Alright I hate to be Lecture!Cory and act snobbish and uptight but I'm ready to play my hand.

 

I think one of the biggest mistakes villagers make is that they get super caught up in what people say.

 

"What the font are you talking about, Cory? This is an internet argument game! All we have to go by is what people say!"

 

I remember how much I pushed this in HoC with Cass and Verbal, to the point where I had to basically throw multiple mini-tantrums in order to get people to see that Cass was a wolf because everyone was clearing her for typing up pretty words and making sense and showing "effort". The fact is very much this: we are, indeed, playing an internet argument game. And anyone is capable of typing on a keyboard, anyone is capable of making an "observation", anyone is capable of writing up some words that look nice together and make it look like you are paying attention.

 

What you need to actually discern are WHO ARE THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING?

 

Verbal made some posts early and made some posts upon re-entry. Some of them were ~longish and talked about why he does what he does, his personality, and it all look neat and clean and finely cut and it made him look like a bright young chap with lots of cool thoughts.

 

Can anyone tell me who Verbal wants to lynch today?

 

Can anyone tell me who Verbal actually pushed to figure out the alignment of?

 

I sure as hell can't and I've read the thread multiple times. Verbal is not a bad villager. He tries to figure things out and make sense of the world around him. As a wolf, he's good at making nice, clean careful posts and doesn't make many enemies. Which do you see here?

 

And here we go with Pral, whom pretty much nobody really wants to lynch because he is "inactive".

 

Here's the thing: Pral was here day 1. He knows this game exists, he posted in it; I'm not listening to the "Pral is always inactive Day 1 bit" because a lot of the time he's not on DM and never even knew the game started. Wherever he is at this moment, he knows the game is underway and it's not that hard to get on a computer for five minutes once every four days. Inactivity is something extremely easy for him to hide behind because it's "what he's known for", but Pral is not an apathetic villager. I know how the guy plays; I saw him in the Wind in the Door dead thread lamenting that his reads weren't great because he's typically a very strong thread reader; speaking of that game, he also was early in that game and had a notable lapse of absence; yet in his first arrival he already dropped 1-2 light reads on players (that were, IIRC, correct) because he cares about trying to figure things out. Here he didn't bother before dipping out for four days and now he's being giving invulnerability for ~being inactive and I would guess he's a wolf who is playing all of you for fools who won't lynch someone for "no information".

 

And let's say he is a villager. What happens on Day 4 when the game is on the line and he doesn't bother to show up? What happens when you are at must lynch and he doesn't bother to place a vote? How much are we losing in comparative value toward lynch a player that is active and involved and will be there in the game's crucial moments?

 

And I will say it outright: we have NO IDEA who the PRs are, so what if we lynch a village PR instead of Pral that would have used their actions and lucked into something good? If Pral can not show up for four days, how can we depend on him to actually send in NAs as a villager?

 

 

And you guys know how much I hate writing long posts so I beg you, please read it and think about what I am saying.

 

WHO ARE THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING?

 

Who ACTUALLY GIVES A DAMN about who is being lynched today?

 

Above posts are townie AF. 

 

-snip-

But that's all very thin admittedly and I wouldn't put it above ~60% confidence, but that's better than most of the wagons I saw cropping up this whole day phase (Jon Snow / Sili, briefly / Talya / Ocicat)

 

 

I had a train? 

 

Eyy btw, I'm going to go with my (paint) color theory for doing the mafia/town/3P sliding scale thingy.

 

Town----------------------------------------------------------------------Null-------------------------------------------------Mafia------------------------------------------------------Loki

 

Moi/Celeste, Lenlo, Key/Cory, Sooh, Tress, Sili, Leelou, Tina, Dice, Talya, Verbal, Mish, Pral, Tabor, Jon Snow, Ocicat, Eldrick, ??? (possibly Jon Snow, Pral, Mish, Talya? suspect lurkers of being Loki.)

 

I'm your 3rd highest scum read? Reasons?

 

 

I have literally no idea how to hunt 3P besides hoping they are somehow generically wolfy in the same way wolves are

 

Just going to sort of hope we luck into killing him at some point or the wolves do it for us

I would think that the 3P would lurk. It looks like Mafia and town would be best served to get rid of him, which still (imo) is more advantageous for Mafia, because it takes the attention off of them.

 

 

I can't explain how ridiculously wrong you are. 

 

 

\How often is your gut right?

 

I'm not perfect but I would argue I wouldn't have the reputation I do if I were wrong a lot

 

#3 Internet Mafia player, ldo

 

 

You're a reputable mafia player? *Shrug*

 

I dont care about pral. Want verbal.

 

Going to have to reread Verbal and his cases. 

 

Meh, I could technically vote for Verbal. I'd rather not do that yet though. Pral has had plenty of time to show up and even just post in the game to let us know he's around. He hasn't done that. 

 

I really hate this post. 

[Cory Caboose]

JS: you and Sili were at like 3/3 really early on the first day for some reason that I do not understand

 

It's when I started vocally groaning

[John Snow]

JS: you and Sili were at like 3/3 really early on the first day for some reason that I do not understand

 

It's when I started vocally groaning

 

I had my early doubts, but Sili's really come back. Strongest town read atm.

[Niniel]

 

Leaning town:

 

Cory/Key

Taborline

Talya

Snow

 

Leaning mafia:

 

Ocicat 

Wish/Celeste 

Leelou

 

 

 

The rest is people that I don´t have a feeling on or have mixed feelings about. I´m not good at big games so I have not focused on all players. 

 

Not sure why some disappeared. Add Dice to town and maybe Sili. 

 

 

 

This was my last list. 

 

I still feel that Oci, Wish/Celeste and Leelou are scummiest so far.

 

To Cory about voting Pral or Verb: I didn´t like Pral´s list (especially not those listed as mafia) but I´m hesistant to vote him since Oci is voting him. I´m not sure if he would vote a teammate that way. I could of course be wrong about Oci but he is still the scummiest player so far. 

 

If I "had to choose" between them I would pick Verbal. As some have said, he hasn´t hunted much so far. 

 

 

I really like Mish´s posts today. I agree with her about Wish/Celeste. I wrote about the cloud in my head yesterday. It´s like they put that cloud in my head with their posting, posting, posting without actually saying much at all. I hope you don´t get offended, I did not mean to, because it´s great that you are playing here. But I can´t see what you really think about anything. 

 

 

I sort of like Tress´ posts as well, but I´m not sure if it´s because she is town reading me or not. I often have a hard time reading her.

 

 

So new list:

 

Leaning town:

 

Cory/Key

Taborline

Talya

Snow

Dice

Mish

 

Maybe town:

Sili

Tress

 

Leaning mafia:

 

Ocicat 

Wish/Celeste 

Leelou

[Cory Caboose]

I don't really agree with reads that are contingent on flips you don't know, especially on Day 1

 

Ocicat voting Pral doesn't make Pral any more villagery; if Ocicat is a wolf, he could easily be bussing (considering I basically told him outright to vote Pral); if Ocicat is a villager, then it doesn't matter anyway.

[Cory Caboose]

VOTE COUNT

 

 

Eldrick (2) - Lenlo, WISHLeste

Ocicat (3) - Tina, Dice, Eldrick

Pral (4) - KeyBOOSE, Leelou, Ocicat, Sooh

Verbal (2) - Sili, Talya

WishLeste (1) - Mish

 

Not voting (5): Songstress, Verbal, Taborline, Pralaya, John Snow

 

9 to lynch

 

DEADLINE IS NOON EASTERN (GMT - 4) ON WEDNESDAY. No Majority = No lynch

 

 

I might have too many villagers but I am going to work through it

 

That Verbal -> defending Pral post kind of irks me in a weird way as Verbal trying to level me in some way that I'm yet to really understand

[michellem]

Migraine. Gonna try to cure it with taco and Glee. See you later tonight or tomorrow.

[Niniel]

I don't really agree with reads that are contingent on flips you don't know, especially on Day 1

 

Ocicat voting Pral doesn't make Pral any more villagery; if Ocicat is a wolf, he could easily be bussing (considering I basically told him outright to vote Pral); if Ocicat is a villager, then it doesn't matter anyway.

 

Yes, I know and I agree. But I find Oci more scummy than Pral, so it´s still in my mind. 

 

Migraine. Gonna try to cure it with taco and Glee. See you later tonight or tomorrow.

 

Hope you get better soon!

[Taborline]

Feel better soon, Mish.

[Sooh]

I'm not even on Tina's list. I think I am sad 

[Verbal32]

 

Grr, cat on lap decided to rub his head on the keyboard and managed to send my browser back and lose a post.  Composing in Notepad for the second try >.<

 

-----

 

Additional notes from re-read (now on page 37):

 

- Eldrick continues to confound me... pretty sure when he called Sili out for vote-hopping there had already been discussion of Sili's "moves his vote a lot as town" meta.  In fact I'm sure of it, because that was part of one of Cory's early notes that he thought Sili might be trying to appear town by playing to this expectation of him.  I don't expect him to have perfect thread recall (I certainly don't) but of the two that I have a hard time reading, I feel better about Sili than I do Eldrick right now.

 

- I think I'm going to need to ISO a few people when I'm done to get a better feel for them - in context a lot of things are blending into the general mix of "blahblahblah I have no idea about your alignment" and in isolation I can see the patterns better.  Probably need to look at John Snow, Ocicat, Talya, Mish and Wishleste. 

 

More current game thoughts:

 

- I'm really liking the effort Tab is putting in.

 

- I don't get the anti-Pral sentiment.  The activity thing is completely par for the course for him, he's explained it multiple times in games, and the push on him before his posts this morning feels more like punishing him for his playstyle than trying to find actual mafia.  I generally find that when he's fully caught up and starts posting, he has good points to make - I don't always agree with all of them, but he's often more right than I am.  He's also shown excellent judgment as a town power role in the past, as many who have played with him before should remember.  I'm going to need to double check his reads list from this morning when I get to it in my re-read, but nothing struck me as being particularly bad about it.  I'm not going on record as saying I think he's town, but I honestly don't want to lynch him until I think he's not town, and I don't have a firm idea on that yet.

 

 

+1 to both of these

[Verbal32]

Don't like the Pral wagon, specifically the last 2 votes.  Ok with Cory and Leelou on it, as I'm differing degrees of town on them atm.

 

Pral (4) - KeyBOOSE, Leelou, Ocicat, Sooh

[Niniel]

I'm not even on Tina's list. I think I am sad 

 

I haven´t payed much attention to you. Sorry. In a big game like this I read all the posts but I have to choose some to focus on. I had intended to iso some of my unknown today but time is ticking and I think I´m better off with some results before I do it. 

[Talya]

Don't like the Pral wagon, specifically the last 2 votes.  Ok with Cory and Leelou on it, as I'm differing degrees of town on them atm.

 

Pral (4) - KeyBOOSE, Leelou, Ocicat, Sooh

I know you don't like the wagon, but what about Oci and Sooh do you not like?

[Talya]

Feel for you Mish, I hope it goes soon

[Taborline]

The massive multi quote in this post is making my eyes melt. Wish says that she thinks Len has a solid townie vibe, and so goes to consult his posts.

 

Quoting Wish:

 

 

My thoughts on what happened (your analysis):

 

I'm not convinced that Eldrick is Loki, because I'm not sure that he'd make a slip this obvious. He's been under fire for this already, and I don't know if he'd risk that.

 

It is possible that Eldrick wanted to focus more on the game-solving element of Mafia, and was disappointed that Kivam took that away from him. Why would he want to focus more on that? Idk, personal preference?

 

I think that people catching onto this seeming slip held onto it and tunneled Eldrick. Now, if Eldrick had reacted differently to the tunneling, perhaps I would have been against it, but there are some interesting results from putting Eldrick in between a rock and a hard place.

 

1. Eldrick starts casting shade on other people being possible Lokis.

2. Eldrick is iffy about many people, besides the people he thinks are possible Lokis (and even those, says he could be wrong. Indecisive, very). Gives them a solid null. Gives reasons why he doesn't know how to read people (lack of activity, just doesn't know how to read them, not enough info, etc.).

3. Eldrick responds to one of my posts ((I'll quote it below) (in which I said it wasn't important for town to focus on Loki)) saying that it's imperative to focus on Loki. I've noticed that besides the Loki reads, he hasn't tried to Mafia hunt.

 

tldr; These three things combined make Eldrick look scummy, that's for sure. I'm willing to put him in my pile of scumz. Don't think he's Loki.

 

**Also, interesting thing. JS accuses me of misrepping him. Idk how I did that. I'm pretty sure that JS dropped the argument because of Eldrick's levels of experience.

 

For the most part, this is an okay post (except for that last line, as I said in an earlier post on you. JS said the opposite).

 

Teal: I agree.

 

Purple: What did you mean by this, aren't we all trying to focus on game solving?

 

I think your 3 points are a good observation about Eldrick, but I need to go back and look at him too.

 

This is good, as my biggest concern coming from you and from Celeste is that there's a lot of latching onto other people's posts, and on your part there is quite a bit of talk that doesn't say anything specific, so it was good to see something more concrete here.

[Cory Caboose]

Okay I'll just vote whoever you guys want

 

glgl

[Verbal32]

 

Don't like the Pral wagon, specifically the last 2 votes.  Ok with Cory and Leelou on it, as I'm differing degrees of town on them atm.

 

Pral (4) - KeyBOOSE, Leelou, Ocicat, Sooh

I know you don't like the wagon, but what about Oci and Sooh do you not like?

 

 

Looks like low hanging fruit, and I think Taborline made some good points on Oci.  Sooh I have nothing on  - I literally don't remember any of her posts.  No offense, Sooh!  I'm just not picking up anything from my memory on her this game.

 

So yeah, could probably vote Ocicat.  Maybe Talya because I'm in the mood for OMGUS, too.  hehe

[Verbal32]

OMG Sooh has more posts than me.  FML I suck at this.

 

Sorry again, Sooh.

[Verbal32]

How is my memory this bad?