[Advanced] The Usual Suspects Mafia - GAME OVER - COPS WIN

[Andrej]

I tend to self-WIFOM. As a friend of mine puts it, "It's not too hard to say something and have you spinning at a tangent and doubting everything again".

Celeste is sure of herself and usually follows her gut, as it's served her well many times.

 

From what I've read and analyzed so far, it makes sense to me that Zander is town. I don't really have a gut read on him. Celeste isn't sure why she thinks he's scum, it's a strong feeling. Intuition, the way he writes his posts, little things like that make her think scum. Idk...I don't quite understand it. It's a gut feel...and those are unreliable to me, but it is coming from Celeste. And she's right. A lot.

 

I can certainly relate on the spinning yourself in circles point.

 

The bold isn't very clear to me. "She's right. Alot" isn't a good justification if the reason for thinking he's scum is a gut read. I'd prefer some actual context/explanation to the little things she thinks she is picking up on.

[keyholder21]

I just took a nap in the middle of the afternoon O.o. It was only 45 minutes, but it was glorious.

 

Ok. Getting some caffeine and then going see what's up and what I can dig up irt to kiv/z, and laine.

[Andrej]

Here. @Andrej

Celeste thinks you're scum, BTW. :P

 

Another gut read?

 

That makes her 0-1 at least

 

Probably 0-2 from where I am thus in my read thru.

[wish-tree]

 

I tend to self-WIFOM. As a friend of mine puts it, "It's not too hard to say something and have you spinning at a tangent and doubting everything again".

 

Celeste is sure of herself and usually follows her gut, as it's served her well many times.

From what I've read and analyzed so far, it makes sense to me that Zander is town. I don't really have a gut read on him. Celeste isn't sure why she thinks he's scum, it's a strong feeling. Intuition, the way he writes his posts, little things like that make her think scum. Idk...I don't quite understand it. It's a gut feel...and those are unreliable to me, but it is coming from Celeste. And she's right. A lot.

 

 

I can certainly relate on the spinning yourself in circles point.

 

The bold isn't very clear to me. "She's right. Alot" isn't a good justification if the reason for thinking he's scum is a gut read. I'd prefer some actual context/explanation to the little things she thinks she is picking up on.

I know, right? It isn't a good justification.

 

Here are some possibilities:

1. Zander is town. As mentioned before by various others, his meta is same as town and scum. He has a townie voice and tone as either.

A. My read of him as town is right. Celeste's read is wrong because he plays the same way as either alignment.

I. Meta-reliant reads may be wrong.

II. I should listen to logic and see reason as townie.

2. Zander is scum.

A. My read of him as town is wrong, because he has the same meta. Celeste is right.

I. My other reads that are not reliant on meta could also be wrong.

II. Celeste's gut reads could be more accurate than mine.

[Andrej]

1. Uncanny poise? This is a gut vibes read as town. Could you explain?

2. Tell me what it means now? 

3. So, scum gut read? 

4. What does that mean? Townie circle jerk thing?

5. Do you still support a Kiv wagon?

 

Ehhhhh

Maybe I'm just WIFOMing myself, but I'm starting to agree with Celeste after looking at all of AJ's posts. The ISO thing is really helpful. Thanks, guys.

 

1. Sure. I have played a few games with Shad now and, for a newer player, he has a very... thoughtful way of playing. Idk, it's hard to explain. He's just very good for a new player. His thoughts are concise, they're sharp. He seems much more experienced than he actually is in regards to the number of games he's played in; hence "uncanny poise". If you're asking if I was town reading him at this point? Yes.

 

2. It didn't really mean anything then, just that you seemed the happy/fluffy type, which is the personality I associate with Hallia. Doesn't mean anything about your alignment.

 

3. Yes, call it meta if you want. I've got a decent amount of experience with him and usually I can start to pick up on his alignment early by the way he enters the game. Recently, actually, there are two great examples. House of Cards and Age of Gods. Wombat is scum in the first and town in the second. I pegged his successfully in both on D1. So yeah - gut/meta - whatever. Didn't like his posts up to that point.

 

4. More meta. If you played in any of the recent games here on DM you'd understand. Those three are just sort of notorious for being happy/congratulatory towards each other early on in games. That's all I was really referring to.

 

5. I'll let you know when I've finished reading.

[WWWwombat]

Shad looking town on p. 76-77.

[WWWwombat]

@Shad

 

Blue: "Kivam wanted to Pral to feel some immediate pressure when he showed up.  That's null."  This is assuming that Kiv is town because mafia wouldn't need to apply pressure like that by calling out inactives to get a read on them.

 

Red: And maybe it did come off wrong, but the intentions also don't sit right with me so far. I'll need to read a bit more to get a better feel though, so idk

 

He said null right in the post...

[Andrej]

I know, right? It isn't a good justification.

Here are some possibilities:

1. Zander is town. As mentioned before by various others, his meta is same as town and scum. He has a townie voice and tone as either.

A. My read of him as town is right. Celeste's read is wrong because he plays the same way as either alignment.

I. Meta-reliant reads may be wrong.

II. I should listen to logic and see reason as townie.

2. Zander is scum.

A. My read of him as town is wrong, because he has the same meta. Celeste is right.

I. My other reads that are not reliant on meta could also be wrong.

II. Celeste's gut reads could be more accurate than mine.

 

I learned in my last game with Zander that he is very capable of keeping the same tone/face up as scum that he does as town. He can be playful, joke around, etc.

 

The difference in his game is that when he actually has to make a case against someone (IE list reasons for his read, especially scum reads) he sort of struggles. Maybe it's a complex where he has a hard time lying, or hasn't really learned to the nuances of playing the perspective game - but yeah. Don't focus on the jokes and funny stuff because that won't get you anywhere.

[Songstress]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

 

Sephander (5): ClovFG, John Snow, Wombicat, Lenlo, Kivish

Kivish (5): Hallia, Nyce, Zander/Seph, Shad, Sili

Lenlo (2): CorKey, Razen

John Snow (2): Yates, Pral

 

 

Not Voting (6): Csarmi, Talya, Wish/Celeste, Nolderf, Laine, AJ

 

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

 

Deadline is Monday Aug 17th @ 9am MST/Noon EST

[wish-tree]

 

I know, right? It isn't a good justification.

 

Here are some possibilities:

1. Zander is town. As mentioned before by various others, his meta is same as town and scum. He has a townie voice and tone as either.

A. My read of him as town is right. Celeste's read is wrong because he plays the same way as either alignment.

I. Meta-reliant reads may be wrong.

II. I should listen to logic and see reason as townie.

2. Zander is scum.

A. My read of him as town is wrong, because he has the same meta. Celeste is right.

I. My other reads that are not reliant on meta could also be wrong.

II. Celeste's gut reads could be more accurate than mine.

 

 

I learned in my last game with Zander that he is very capable of keeping the same tone/face up as scum that he does as town. He can be playful, joke around, etc.

 

The difference in his game is that when he actually has to make a case against someone (IE list reasons for his read, especially scum reads) he sort of struggles. Maybe it's a complex where he has a hard time lying, or hasn't really learned to the nuances of playing the perspective game - but yeah. Don't focus on the jokes and funny stuff because that won't get you anywhere.

Okay. Then I find his focus on the emo stuff weird. Very weak reasoning for thinking Kivam is scum. Not sure if this has changed.

[wish-tree]

Gotta go get dinner. Won't be able to post until later, if at all. WiFi sucks in the lodge.:/

[Nynaeve]

Not happy how people keep completely mis-representing the use of LAH at this point. Have you looked at how many people are in this fudging game? Do you really think that none of the hydras even have the chance to be wolves? Kill bloat. Narrow POE pool. Sure, I can focus in on "A" names but they don't have two people per slot now do they? stfu and join me

 

I don't think misrepping is the correct term. What you're pitching has been pitched before. People can agree or disagree with it. I've always disliked the idea and that's not likely to change. I'm interested to see how you incorporate it going forward, but that's about as far as my interest goes when it comes to this topic.

 

 

 

 

#844 I think the "emo" that Zander is referring to in this post is the "what's the point" part of the post: it comes off as Kiv being frustrated/annoyed and not willing to explain himself better.

 

Clearly he's never played with Despo >.>

 

 

 

 

That STILL doesn't change the fact that Kivam provided a half-truth meta on a player as an excuse to draw him out and had to back track out of it. I feel like we're beating a dead horse here though   #annoyed

 

We should start a club.

[Andrej]

Okay. Then I find his focus on the emo stuff weird. Very weak reasoning for thinking Kivam is scum. Not sure if this has changed.

 

I'll keep an eye out for this as I continue reading. I spotted some of Zander's stuff regarding Kivam during the earlier part of the game - but if those reasons haven't grown and Kivam has continued posting (especially on other topics) then yeah, that may be a problem.

[WWWwombat]

If you want to call it an arbitrary list, that's fine. But I'm also doing what works for me, and will in no way be using LAH to avoid giving reads elsewhere. I really hate hydras (we're at 81 pages and d1 isn't over) and if I can find the scum in those 8 slots (it's unlikely there are none on the scum team), then I'll pat myself on the back and move on. I don't think it's a bad way to play FOR ME and in THIS GAME because I tend to get lost in larger games and this could help.

 

As for reading hydras better: we have twice the opportunity to see scum plays/slips with two people in a slot rather than one. Don't you think that increases chances? Additionally, I tend to read some people better than others, so pairing generally null slots with people I read better is also helpful.

 

So why not something equally arbitrary/illogical like Kill Top Posters?  What about hydras like me where it seems I'm doomed to play this game all by myself?  What about lurky/inactive hydras?  I don't think your hydra stance makes any sense, but at this point, I'd rather just drop it and see you focus on other stuff so I can get a read on you for that.

[Andrej]

pg 21-31 p1

 

 

 

 

Believe me, Laine's lynch all hydras thing is null. Make what you will of people supporting it.

 

Kinda like this mindset regarding the LAH thing.

 

Yes, she is Alanna or Laine, used to be AJ but we have another of those now

 

I think you meant: used to be AJ, but now the AJ arrived.

 

How is that supposed to help us if we are new here? D1 isn't all about meta though as it's a new time to force new reads on a totally different game.

 

I feel like your response is a little over the top. Nyn wasn't saying that if you wanted to grasp meta than to read other games... she said that D1 is mostly about that but things would become more content laden as the game progresses. I don't get what it was that she said that caused you to react in this manner.

 

My point was instead of viewing someone as scummy for dropping a bogus vote they can potentially sit on, you should wait and see who's sitting on bogus votes.

 

28 players, there's going to be a lot of past knowledge based-reads going on.  Take advantage of not knowing anyone to catch scummy things we're passively accepting as normal.

 

 

If you only played with him as scum, then you shouldn't be using meta. You clearly said that as scum he lurks. That's the basis of your vote. Only he is a low content poster regardless of his alignment. Whether you approve of low content players or not is irreverent.

 

You didn't place a vote for reaction. You placed a vote, while characterizing his absence as scummy.

 

Nyn is on fire.

 

Im skipping nols posts to tick him off :myrrdraal:

Celeste and razen wolves

Sili key Talya town

Gonna read the thread tonight

 

Super insight?

 

Idk if these are explained later but pretty interesting thus far.

 

I see. I just find it odd that she was suggesting reading a whole game instead of like interact with people in thread.

 

She wasn't though?

 

 

I see. I just find it odd that she was suggesting reading a whole game instead of like interact with people in thread.

 

You could technically read old games to get a grasp on meta, but considering the sheer amount of players in this game, it would take ages and I wouldn't recommend it.

 

Learn to read

 

LOL

 

Okay...well, for one, what's up with the Zander blind trust of Laine?

 

More meta. Seen him do this both as town and as scum recently, so null. It's more to do with a out of game friendship than anything else

 

I dont have any mets on Mish but it seemed like an overreaction to me but Ill take your meta knowledge into consideration dear Nyn.  Also agree with not being a fan of Kiv's posts thus far/

 

This seems like a pretty reasonable post by Zander. Considering his knack for tunneling when he thinks he's smelled blood in the water, it's not a bad look.

 

Mish is a player I have trouble reading without bias because honestly I don't think I have ever seen her as Mafia and I consider her to be an exceptional villager so don't know what to expect and just vastly prefer her to be a villager

Hoping it becomes clearer with time because it'll give me headaches otherwise

 

Your poor heart.

 

 

Here's what you need to know about my meta: I'm emotional and angsty and tend to get emo, I also like to set up traps that no-one else sees are traps so I usually end up getting lots of heat, and my schemes always end up biting me in the ass. Also, if I think I've caught scum I will usually go into full tunnel. Generally, I'm a mess!

 

I think we can relate to something here!

 

@MISH!

 

 

 

[Andrej]

pg 21-31 p2

 

 

You're not the only one with a headache with all this meta flying back and forth.  I'm just trying to look at what people are saying.  I don't care what people's meta is - if I see something I don't like, I'm going to call them on it.

Pretty much how it should be imo.

 

 

Nyn - what about Kivam's content did you not like?

 

What caught my eye at first was the way he was supporting Laine's hydra hate campaign. Some others agreed with her as well (like Zander, wind and so on), but he went about it differently. Obviously I think the whole theory is a bunch of BS because it's 100% arbitrary (oh look, I used percentage so it must be true!). But the way he was trying to make it more than what it is, using mathematical certainty, reeks.

 

I didn't realize at that point that he and Mish are hydra, and I kinda liked how she was standing her ground, but looking at the interaction between them now... it looks awkward. I mean, sure, she gets defensive at anything. But then he explains to her how it totally does make sense (which it doesn't)... and she bows to his everlasting wisdom and backs off? Considering how strongly she felt about the entire thing?  Feels off.

 

But what really struck a chord with me was his reasoning for voting Pral. He dismissed my comments about it, but it's right there. He was trying to misrep Pral. It's great that he only played with him as scum.... but he can't make an accusation based on meta if he doesn't know Pral's overall meta. His responses ranged between.... oh I only played with him as scum so that's all I know.... to him claiming that his vote was just made for reaction since Pral hasn't checked in yet. Which I don't really buy. He could have dropped a nudge vote for activity rather than use a bogus meta reason for that vote.

 

Kinda disagree with the bold about it being complete BS, when there technically IS some mathematical probability to it, and I really don't think he was trying to give it some greater accuracy.  He actually said the exact opposite of that, IIRC.  Obviously I agree with your point about his meta read on Pralaya, and I think you look good for making it.  

 

I also feel like I should tell you that I was more concerned with how you answered this question than what you answered it with, if that makes sense.  Your original posts to/about Kiv didn't seem to have that bite that I associate with your town game - very short and not...aggressive? enough.

 

Like this exchange between Nyn/Clov. I agree with Clov on the part that the stats don't really say much, I've seen Kiv do that in the past and think he sort of views like that in a nutshell when it comes to Mafia, but the Pral stuff I can agree with.

 

The bolded bit in Clov's post is what I like to call Clovian. I wouldn't put it past him to pull some next level meta test stuff as scum, but the fact he's voicing stuff like this to clear someone on legit meta tells is probably a good sign.

 

One more time with feeling: i made no accusation against Pral. I prodded him to participate because if he happens to be scum this game, i want content to analyze. If I haven't made this clear enough in this and other threads, I DON'T BELIEVE IN META. Good players can stay consistent across alignment and bad players will get caught making mistakes with or without meta on them. Other than wanting to know if particular arguments are out of character for a player (if i start advocating no lynch D1, there's something weird going on), things like affect and tone are meaningless to me, because they can be faked so easily Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

You kinda did though.

 

"Pral hasn't checked in yet and lurks as scum. So Vote: Pral"

 

 

Villa captain arriving

 

 

You rang??

 

 

One more time with feeling: i made no accusation against Pral. I prodded him to participate because if he happens to be scum this game, i want content to analyze. If I haven't made this clear enough in this and other threads, I DON'T BELIEVE IN META. Good players can stay consistent across alignment and bad players will get caught making mistakes with or without meta on them. Other than wanting to know if particular arguments are out of character for a player (if i start advocating no lynch D1, there's something weird going on), things like affect and tone are meaningless to me, because they can be faked so easily Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

I don't see how the bold isn't a complete lie.  

 

Since nobody is doing anything ... [v]Pralaya[/v].  If my memory is right, he likes to lurk as scum, and hasn't checked in yet.  Pral, where're you at?  Start laying some content down.

 

That was your vote and explanation.  You could have just voted him and made a comment like "Come out and play" and left it there.  You deliberately pointed out that you associate him with lurking as mafia, and you point out that he's not being active.  You didn't say, "I think Pral is scum", but I think there's a pretty clear insinuation in that post.

 

THANK YOU!!!!

 

Clov's on the ball with this observation.

 

Traffic traffic.

Lookin' for my Chapstick

 

Can't believe nobody got this reference, btw. Traffic seriously sucks coming home from work each day of the week.

 

-snip-

 

Unfortunately there's probably a good chance I should have let that read develop before talking about it since if nothing else Clov can talk his way out of most things for a long time and I don't like giving people time to correct things they might not pay attention to about themselves in active games before things are ultimately decided

 

But lord knows I have trouble shutting my mouth

 

You sort of answered yourself here, imo. I also think these sort of reads are pretty early considering the place in the game that we were at. Maybe it's just your knack for getting killed early that makes you feel you need to voice this sort of concern - but honestly - I think it does more harm than good. If by the end of D1 if nothing had changed THEN I could see you making this sort of observation, but a day or two into the game opening and it growing with the pace it did, you're sort of off base.

 

My advice? Chill, man.

 

Take a lesson from me: Stay in school, wrap your tool.

 

Wish I had known this before now.

 

Otherwise I wouldn't have been a 22 year old E-4 with a baby on the way 

 

 

Also something to note is that Pral wasn't the only player that hadn't checked in at the time either.  So it's interesting that Kivam singles him out.

 

I actually didn't think about that.  I'd have to check to see who else hadn't posted yet, but this could be a very helpful observation for later.

 

Not sure the observation means much, personally. What I *DO* think matters, though, is the fact that Razen is paying attention to such details.

 

 

[John Snow]

-snip-

 

#1086 [wish tree quoting Wombat on Snow's meta] Snow was pretty active in the Pokemon game (mafia), he was ~quieter in AG (town), but was still active early Day 1 (and the N1 kill). Admittedly that's just 2 games and I don't recall playing another game with him.

 

-snip-

 

 

 

The only of these reads I can't see you having at this point is Talya being one of your strongest townies and John Snow being your strongest mafia.  I didn't play British Monarchy with him, so can you explain what he was like there (and how it's different from what he's doing this game?)  Also not sure what you're seeing about Talya.  I'll take another look at her posts later but it seemed like she was kind of sitting in the middle on some issues and asking questions, but not really following up or introducing anything to the table.

John Snow and me had a lot of things going on in the BM game. He was a vanilla who made a gambit of claiming vig in D1 and I counter-claimed and so on. The thing is, he was actively looking for reactions, making posts just in order to gauge reactions and trying to bait others. I am not saying that he should gambit here too but that whole tone is missing here. His posts in this just seem like "Ok, I am here. These are my reads. He is who I think is scum", done. Not the aggressive JS that I saw in BM

 

 

To you all of you trying to meta me, here's a hint. Don't. As Darthe put it in American Gods:

 

-snip-

there is nothing that I wouldn't do as either town or mafia

-snip-

 

 

 

I do what I do because I want to. I usually try to kick off the game at the very start, no matter my alignment. My computer was broken, so I didn't get a chance to do that this game. 

 

I'm usually more active than this as both alignments, but it's a big game, I don't know a good chunk of the people, and I didn't get embroiled in the early action (which helps me get a better read for a game). 

 

I'll be rereading the thread a few times today, and I'll post an updated reads list. 

[Nynaeve]

 

• I have to say I get fed up with this, the blind following doesn't help game solve. 

 

It makes it harder to read the person too.

 

 

 

Nyn's explanation of her vote on Kiv, didn't like his Maths and agreeing with Laine over Lah, thinks it awkward between Mish and Kiv (why would this make you think they are mafia?), Here she says about the reasoning for his vote on Pral, when not knowing Pral's over all meta - still disagree with you Nyn :p

 

The main reason I think that slot is prolly scum is Kivam, not their interaction irt hydra hate. But it did seem odd to me that she folded when he stepped in. I almost got the feeling that he was interjecting before she drew unneeded attention. Plus it's not really consistent with her personality. But I will concede that when questioning her about it, she replied well. Which is why I dropped that. But Kivam still looks slimy imo.

[WWWwombat]

Like 1632 by Yates.

[WWWwombat]

 

Kiv Votes Pral - This is that post: I'm not seeing this anything other than Kiv trying to start things and go after someone who hasn't voted. There were others that hadn't posted, but how is he supposed to vote for all. He can't. I see this as nothing more than a pressure vote trying to encourage Pral, but also to get reactions. Unfortunately I can see him doing this as town or wolf.

 

Okay, I can't help but comment about this, cause it irritates me. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I think you're wrong. Last game (Verbal's assassin game), someone kicked off D1 with a vote on Pral, joking that it would summon him to the thread. And that's fine.. It isn't the actual vote that bothers me and I've said that quite a few times. The issue what it is not what he did, but how he did it, throwing in a.... well last time as scum Pral was lurky too. hint hint. poke poke. Then he got called on it and rightly so. Then he claimed to only have seen his scum game, which means he shouldn't have said what he said without the full knowledge of his meta. He's not dumb. And then later on he says he doesn't believe in meta at all, So why bring it up? The whole thing stinks of backpadeling because he got heat over it.

 

I'm sort of tired of the whole kick starting, reaction testing, faking, fibbing excuses. What he did wasn't kickstarting the game, it was misrepping and voting for someone based on something he claims he doesn't even believe in. 

 

 

How do you expect games to get going without kick starting or reaction testing?  Look at this one for instance.  Over 80 pages and almost no vote movement yet.

[dicetosser1]

right well i DO exist and right now I hate this game. My apologies for not being here  I have been trying to keep up but work suxed this week and you lot put 20 pages on me everytime i go to sleep!

 

So im gonna do what I saw Nol suggest  just go from here. After all Im only here to look pretty!!!

 

Im currently 31 pages behind and will keep banging at that but am going to try and focus on real time   or as close as i can get  from here on. Have to bang heads with my other head and get an update hoping she doesnt kill me.

[WWWwombat]

 

Seph/Zander lecturing Kivs is scummy.  Sili asking Lenlo for content is lol.  New people have interesting hair colors.  Shad and Cory are killing it.  Laine leaving her vote on the best hydra ever is scummy.

 

[v]Laine[/v]

 

This is the OP I talked about earlier for why I was suspect of Wombat. It has that sort of quality (or lack thereof) that I associate more with his scum game. Firstly - why is Zeph telling Kivam to leave his garbage out of this game scummy? How are Shad/Cory killing it? Does Laine's vote staying on Nolderp (iirc) after voting every single hydra really make a difference? Idk - just sort of a junk post.

 

Zeph lecturing Kivam was scummy because it's a stock town-seeming angle to take that doesn't actually do anything.  This was the stage of the game when people vote people for completely stupid reasons, so Zeph taking that angle isn't about trying to keep illogic out of the game thread imo so much as it is about trying to find something pro-town to say.

 

Shad and Cory were making me laugh.

 

Vote on Laine was a reaction test, as is pretty much everything I do super early in games.  Didn't get anything from Laine but Zander bit and called my vote a "bad look."  Not sure if he's trying to pocket Laine or if he's really that bad, but given everything he and Seph have done this game, they are my top scum read.

 

 

Figured you were just reaction testing me earlier but now that you've doubled down on "Wombat is scum cuz I don't like his OP lel" you can consider yourself FoSed.

[Nynaeve]

 

 

Kiv Votes Pral - This is that post: I'm not seeing this anything other than Kiv trying to start things and go after someone who hasn't voted. There were others that hadn't posted, but how is he supposed to vote for all. He can't. I see this as nothing more than a pressure vote trying to encourage Pral, but also to get reactions. Unfortunately I can see him doing this as town or wolf.

 

Okay, I can't help but comment about this, cause it irritates me. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I think you're wrong. Last game (Verbal's assassin game), someone kicked off D1 with a vote on Pral, joking that it would summon him to the thread. And that's fine.. It isn't the actual vote that bothers me and I've said that quite a few times. The issue what it is not what he did, but how he did it, throwing in a.... well last time as scum Pral was lurky too. hint hint. poke poke. Then he got called on it and rightly so. Then he claimed to only have seen his scum game, which means he shouldn't have said what he said without the full knowledge of his meta. He's not dumb. And then later on he says he doesn't believe in meta at all, So why bring it up? The whole thing stinks of backpadeling because he got heat over it.

 

I'm sort of tired of the whole kick starting, reaction testing, faking, fibbing excuses. What he did wasn't kickstarting the game, it was misrepping and voting for someone based on something he claims he doesn't even believe in. 

 

 

How do you expect games to get going without kick starting or reaction testing?  Look at this one for instance.  Over 80 pages and almost no vote movement yet.

 

 

You start talking. People say dumb sh*t. You question them. And if all else fails, you lynch Darthe.

[Nynaeve]

There are two sides to that coin though. A player can get away with doing scummy stuff cause it was just a reaction test/fibbing/kick starting. I'm not a fan of that little loophole that is left readily by for players to wiggle out of tough situations.

[WWWwombat]

Eyes are starting to glaze over when I read Talya's posts.  Not a good sign for her.