Red Ajah Finding and Capturing Channeling Men... How?

[Jagen Sedai]

This is something I cannot ever remember being revealed in the WoT world, but how could Aes Sedai capture, or for that matter, detect a man who could channel? I suppose as far as 'detecting' them, the most they could do is go off of leads and speaking to people.

 

But has it been theorized or revealed in the books that there may be a way to detect men channeling? I cannot remember. In the least, I think I remember a way to detect the channeling of saidin as being discovered, but it doesn't make sense that the Red Ajah wouldn't know this knowledge already. I do remember from New Spring (I think) that each Ajah seems to have its own secret weaves they don't share with others, and even individual Sisters having secret weaves. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Reds don't really have a method pre-Rand. Due to the effects of the Taint it's quite obvious when there is a male channeler. The Red Ajah are more keenly aware of this, and pretty much know by the signs. 

 

I suspect there are a great many that go unnoticed though. A lot of places - specially remote villages - would probably kill a male channeler as soon as they are found. In addition, there are indications that male channelers often go into seclusion themselves to avoid hurting anyone. 

 

 

SO no, the Red Ajah doesn't have a particular method of detecting male channelers beyond knowing the signs (like a doctor assessing the flu I suppose). 

 

However, this is pre-Rand. In KoD, there is an Aes Sedai who does come up with a method of detecting male channelling, when Narshima is brought before the Hall to present them with Rand's proposal to bond Asha'man. 

 

Also, Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that detects male channelers, which is why she has captured more than most Reds. She even suspects she's captured more than all the living Reds combined (as of aCoS). 

 

The reason the Red Ajah never had this knowledge before is because male channelers are rare, and rarer are the ones actually discovered by the Reds. Simply put, the Red Ajah didn't need, nor did they have the needed experimentation material (live male channelers) to develop it. The Reds did not dare experiment- it would mean allowing a man to channel, which is extremely dangerous. The White Tower as a whole shielded the man as soon as they caught him and gentled him when he got to the Tower. Nobody was game enough to experiment with the risks of the man going mad and blowing up half a city. 

 

The only reason the method was developed is Rand's amnesty and subsequent building of the Black Tower, then the Cleansing. At the time, since the Aes Sedai couldn't just gentle them all, they had to live with the Asha'man, so they had the chance, and the motive, since there were now hundreds of men channelling, to develop the methods that were developed. 

[fionwe1987]

There are Aes Sedai who can detect residues of saidin, also. That definitely played a part in detecting then tracing male channelers.

[Barid Bel Medar]

There are Aes Sedai who can detect residues of saidin, also. That definitely played a part in detecting then tracing male channelers.

 

Ah, indeed! Forgot about that. I was thinking too broadly. Yeah, that is very useful when on the trail of a male channeler. 

 

Do we know how rare a Talent it is? It doesn't seem it would be a reliable tactic used by the Reds. It would depend on luck of getting an Aes Sedai with that talent and then having them available. (Although I suppose they would be kept in places they could be used best.) 

[Jagen Sedai]

I forgot about that Talent... It works with both saidar and saidin, right? Was it a talent, or a weave known to those sisters?

[fionwe1987]

“The residues of a weave this large might be read two days from now.”

 

Merilille snorted, a very strong sound to come from that slight body. “That is a rare Talent, girl. Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it. Or do you Aiel wilders all learn that as well?”

“Few can do it,” Aviendha admitted calmly. “But I can.” That produced a different sort of stare, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent. She did not seem to notice.”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Wheel of Time [08]: The Path of Daggers.”

 

It is indeed a very rare Talent. And we know Rand has it, since he uses it to follow Sammael's Gateway to Shadar Logoth, and Asmodean as well to Rhuidean. But there also seems to be a weave:

 

“Nisain smoothed her dark woolen skirts nervously and cleared her throat. A gangly Gray with a strong chin and startlingly blue eyes, she had some small repute in matters of law and treaties, but she was obviously uneasy about speaking before the Hall. She looked straight at Egwene with the air of someone who did not want to actually see all the Sitters assembled. “Given the amount of saidar used there, Mother, it was no surprise to find the residues near as thick as the snow.” More than a hint of Murandy clung to her tongue, a lilting sound. “Even after so long, I should have been able to grasp some idea of what was woven, if it was at all like anything I’m familiar with, but I have none. I could all but trace the weave, Mother, and it made no sense at all. None. In fact, it seemed so alien, it might not have been. . . .” Clearing her throat again, she swallowed. Her face grew a little paler. “It might not have been woven by a woman. We thought it must have been the Forsaken, of course, so I tested for resonance. We all did.” Half-turning to gesture to her companions, she hurriedly turned back. She definitely preferred looking at Egwene to the Sitters, all leaning forward intently. “I can’t say what was done, beyond scooping three miles out of the earth, or how it was done, but saidin was definitely used, too. The resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill. And that is all I can say, Mother.”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Wheel of Time [10]: Crossroads of Twilight.” 

 

“Everyone seemed willing to accept that,” Nisao went on, but she did not hurry. Hands twisting and flexing on the edges of her cloak, she appeared reluctant to reach her conclusion. “There were no wounds, no injuries of any sort. No reason to think it was anything but a greedy farmer selling bad mushrooms. But . . .” She sighed, glancing over her shoulder again, and lowered her voice. “I suppose it was all the talk of the Black Tower in the Hall today. I tested for resonance. They were killed with saidin.” A grimace of disgust crossed her face. “I think someone just wove solid flows of Air around their heads and let them smother.” Shuddering, she drew her cloak closer.”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Wheel of Time [10]: Crossroads of Twilight.” 

 

“Kairen Stang is dead,” Nisao said without preamble. Her face was smooth, her voice steady, and chill. Short enough to make Egwene feel tall, she stood as though straining for an extra inch. Nisao did not usually do that. “Seven sisters had already tested for resonance before I got there. There is no doubt she was killed using saidin. Her neck was broken. Shattered. As if her head had been wrenched around full circle. At least it was quick.”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Wheel of Time [10]: Crossroads of Twilight.”

 

The rare Talent lets you read weaves of the half of the Power you can use. But women can test for resonance to saidin, and this seems to be a conscious thing to do, rather than a passive Talent, indicating a weave of some sort. Since the first seven women to come across Kairen before Nisao all tested for it, and Nisao herself did too, it seems clear this is an ability all Aes Sedai possess. I'm pretty certain Reds themselves must practice this to an even greater extent, and might have secret weaves that enhance these abilities more. 

 

The weave itself uses all five of the Powers:

 

“Nacelle needs only moments,” Malind replied, rubbing her hands together. Irritatingly, she did not even bother to look at Romanda, keeping her eyes on the other Green. “This is her first chance to test a new weave. Go ahead, Nacelle. Try it.”

 

The glow of saidar appeared around the slim Green. Shocking! The woman neither asked permission nor told them what weave she intended, although tight strictures held on what uses of the Power were allowed in the Hall. Channeling all of the Five Powers, she wove around the Asha’man something that seemed akin to the weave for detecting residues, a thing Romanda had small facility for.”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Knife of Dreams.”

 

I'm sure Reds develop this ability as much as Yellows do Healing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

nice one, cheers for the info. 

[fionwe1987]

Some extra proof that this is how male channelers were found:

 

“Romanda’s eyebrows climbed. Even Lelaine gasped. Finding a man who could channel was always a matter of reading the residues of what he had done, then arduously narrowing the suspects down to the true culprit. Or rather, it had been. This was truly wondrous.”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “Knife of Dreams.” 

[Sabio]

My guess would be the look for signs, listens to rumors, etc of men suddenly becoming sick, acting strangely, or strange things happening.  To get them on the trail of men who can channel.  Once they narrow things down my guess is the residue detection would them come in handy to attempt to find the man using the power.  They might go about asking questions, investigating men of a certain age.  But being so few Reds I would guess out of the way areas or dangerous areas they miss, or many might be dead before they even get there.  Would be interesting to compare the number of men caught in randland vs the number of men caught in Seachan, Shara, or Aiel waste.

 

 

 

Being how everything is on horseback I imagine its a long time consuming thing roaming about looking for men.

[Jagen Sedai]

I am trying to remember how many men have been captured--not counting Logain or Taim.

 

Thank you for the excerpts and the detailed posts. I am curious how Nacelle learned or discovered this weave, so I'll be researching it.

 

I want to use this info for the RP side of things :)

[fionwe1987]

Well there are not that many to capture. Cadsuane captured 10 over about 240 years, and that is more than any single Red. More then one Red, actually. Male Speakers have been weeded out, and that's why female speakers were diminishing too. That's why Alviarin proposed the mad idea of Aes Sedai carrying the babes of gentled men.

 

As for Nacelle, remember she's revealed to be Black. My guess? Mesaana taught her the weave as a way to smoke out Aran'gar, leaving both the Rebels and the Tower loyalists at her disposal. Her later taking over Sheriam certainly bolsters the idea.

[Jagen Sedai]

Oh, good point. I completely forgot she was Black. I wouldn't have even noticed that plot on my own >.>

[Sabio]

Might of been to smoke out Aran'gar but I always took it as a way to ensure the rebels would never trust the Asha'man.  It had to be known and  confirmed a man was killing the Aes Sedai in camp.  Aran'gar might of taught her also.  After all Aran'gar would want to ensure male channelers would never be allowed in camp.  Since the DO wanted Aran'gar in the rebel camp Messana would have to be careful if she did want to smoke Aran'gar out as not to be seen by the DO as going against his desires.  After all if her ambition ruined one of his plans she would be in big trouble. 

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

"the only reason the method was developed is rand's amnesty and subsequent 

the black tower".

well,it was like putting a finger into a hole inside an embankment already full of 

holes in a futile attempt to prevent an impending flood,i.e.their efforts were inconsequential.

the real problem was the dragon reborn not his asha'man,he was the one who

implemented all those changes.

in a different thread sabio wrote that rand was a dictator,and to some extent he

was,but it didn't stop there,his preparations for  the last battle were daring,innovative and

unpredictable,unsurprisingly,aes sedai(nynaeve excluded) favored a different approach,

a more..traditional(to put it mildly) approach to the last battle so they had to play catch-up 

with the storm rand created.

a recurring theme throughout the wheel of time books is lack of proper communication,nobody

bothered to communicate,they assumed or jumped to conclusions etc,but nobody took the time

to open a gateway,meet the others and talk.

[fionwe1987]

Might of been to smoke out Aran'gar but I always took it as a way to ensure the rebels would never trust the Asha'man.  It had to be known and  confirmed a man was killing the Aes Sedai in camp.  Aran'gar might of taught her also.  After all Aran'gar would want to ensure male channelers would never be allowed in camp.  Since the DO wanted Aran'gar in the rebel camp Messana would have to be careful if she did want to smoke Aran'gar out as not to be seen by the DO as going against his desires.  After all if her ambition ruined one of his plans she would be in big trouble. 

How does this cause a problem with the Asha'man? If anything, the weave makes it more likely the Aes Sedai can work with the Asha'man, because they can now figure out which Asha'man did what. The only people this hurts is male channelers secretly in the Rebel Camp, and there was only ever one of those.

[Sabio]

Really?  The Aes Sedai mostly don't trust male channelers to begin with, now someone is using the male power to kill Aes Sedai.  They have no idea if its a renegade male, an Asha'man, maybe its Logain wanting revenge.  Plus Asha'man are hardly going to allow themselves to be investigated or tested by Aes Sedai.  Aran'gar easily could of killed and not of made it seem like it was with the male half of the power.  She wanted the finger to point at male channelers.

[fionwe1987]

Really?  The Aes Sedai mostly don't trust male channelers to begin with, now someone is using the male power to kill Aes Sedai.  They have no idea if its a renegade male, an Asha'man, maybe its Logain wanting revenge.  Plus Asha'man are hardly going to allow themselves to be investigated or tested by Aes Sedai.  Aran'gar easily could of killed and not of made it seem like it was with the male half of the power.  She wanted the finger to point at male channelers.

Well of course Aran'gar wanted to defeat the accord with male channelers that was proposed. But I'm saying Mesaana taught Nacelle the weave to smoke Aran'gar out. In fact, the accord itself was chiefly proposed by Moira, another Black Sister. I suspect Mesaana was ordered to arrange for it, so those 50 sisters from the Rebels would enter the BT, and then be turned. The Reds showing up first put a damper on that, of course. 

[Sabio]

I just don't see Mesaana wanting to smoke out Aran'gar after the DO put her there.  It's a possibility but after she was punished by the DO Mesaana was not in good standing.  So if  she tries to smoke out Aran'gar it could turn out really bad for her.  She was having enough trouble in the tower. without trying to take on controlling the rebels. I could see Mesaana trying to take them over after Aran'gar exposed herself and had to flee.

[mb]

about Cadsuane; I recall somewhere telling that she captured more male chanellers than any 4 Reds.

 

the scene in Knife of Dreams; it is chapter 23.

 

about Arangar; not sure if she was ordered to join the rebel Aes Sedia or if she chose.  from what I recall, the books do not explicitly tell.

[DemandredFO]

Either way, he did precisely nothing and least Osangar almost killed Rand.

[Sabio]

Not true, she did cause Egwene headaches, LOL. 

 

I think the DO or at least Moridin placed them where they needed to go, a female channeling the male half would be perfect for the rebels.  Probably why the DO  had him placed in a female body in the first place.  Capturing an Aes Sedai, torturing for information etc. shows extensive planning.  Would be interesting to know if the orginal group like Samm, Dem, Rhavin, Semi. Messana, etc were specifically placed.  But my guess is Osan'gar and Asan'gar were made for their respective locations.

[mb]

read past Knife of Dreams chapter 23 in current time through the series.  not sure about Nacelle being a Black; do not recall her name in the Black Ajah lists of Gathering Storm.  recall just 3 specifically named Blacks in the rebel Aes Sedia camp; Delana, Sheriam, Moria.

and not sure about Nacelle getting the weave directly from any Forsaken.  my guess would be that the weave was something the rebel Aes Sedia discovered on their own or that it was something Moghedien told when  she was captured by them.

 

 

original Forsaken; first Forsaken meeting of Fires of Heaven seemed to indicate that Sammael, Rahvin, and Graendal chose their respective locations.

I imagine Mesaana, Semirhage, Demandred, and Be'lal also chose their respective locations; but I do not have a scene to confirm/support that.  though I do not recall any scene that contradicts it.

[Jagen Sedai]

Nacelle is named as Black at some point, I think from Verin's book.

[fionwe1987]

 

“Each name was like a thorn through Egwene’s skin. Dagdara Finchey, who had healed Egwene once when she’d stumbled and twisted her ankle. Zanica, who had taught Egwene lessons and had seemed so pleasant. Larissa Lyndel. Miyasi, for whom Egwene had cracked nuts. Nesita. Nacelle Kayama. Nalaene Forrell, who—like Elza—was bound to Rand. Birlen Pena. Melvara. Chai Rugan. . . .”

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan. “The Gathering Storm: A Visit from Verin Sedai"

[mb]

the Knife of Dreams scene does not give a surname.  some chance of the 2 being different.