Is there an end to Ages?

[dalic]

In ACoS Swovan Night as Mat recognizes Birgitte he flashes back to blowing the Horn and seeing the Heroes. He lists a few of them. One of them is Shivan the Hunter who is said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what was and the birth of what was to come. Is this just legend that has grown around this Hero or is he the actual herald of the end of Ages? Birgitte complained that she was just a woman with a talent for the bow, and yet people would expect her to do incredible things becaues she is a Hero.

[trakand01]

Hi this is a really old post but i thought i'd post anyway.

 

I think perhaps that he heralds the end of the CURRENT age (the destruction of what was) and the beginning of the next (and the birth of what was to come) rather than the end of ALL ages. That would be stopping the wheel turning.

 

Am i right or have i mis-read it?

[Seriodor]

I think your probably right trakand, either that or just a couple of stories about him blown out of proportion.

[Luckers]

I've always concidered the question of the beginning and the end of the Age cycle as one of the most interesting in the books. For instance, does each turning of the wheel include 60 billion years of the universe prior to the appearence of humans on earth? Does our species die out in the future, or is it that when the Third Age comes again the new Rand will be the physical descendent of people living in the current Third Age? Does the wheel completely reboot at the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next?

 

I used to have this pet theory that time was once linear, and that the Creator turned it into a loop to exclude the Dark One, and that until the Dark One is killed time must remain in a loop, never advancing, never changing except in small ways--then i went to uni and actually got dumacated about how kalpass work, and they didn't seem quite as silly.

 

Ramble over, continue what you were doing.

[BrainFireBob]

There is a theory in physics- it has several names, including the cyclic universe- that the universe expands until the outward force of the Big Bang is less than the gravitational attraction of the universe to itself, then it collapses back into a point singularity, which being unstable explodes outward into the universe once more.

 

I always assumed, given Jordan's background, that that was part of his view of the eternal Wheel of Time.

[Luckers]

Kinda depressing for the Dark One though... one 4,000 year shot at company every 100 billion years (or whatever).

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Kinda depressing for real life, if it is true. It means progress is inevitable, if everything will eventually collapse into a singularity.

[Luckers]

Not nessasarily. There is a concept called a Kalpass. Cyclical time that works more like a spiral than a cycle. So, each turning of the wheel contains all that came before it--there are still the same basic occurences, the same large events, but each time the turning is larger, enriched and altered by what went before. So there is progress, and growth, its just... slow.

 

Or did you mean the scientific idea of the Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle? That doesn't really forestall spiritual growth, you know. Especially if reincarnation is in the game.

[Thorum]

My idea is that we live in the First Age, and the Big Bang is what makes it really the First one. (the change between Seventh & First Ages).

 

As to circularity: EVERYTHING is circular :)

[Luckers]

'cept for heterosexuals... those poor misguided freaks.

 

But no, seriously. They're a minority. Be nice to them... even if they make your skin crawl. It's the civilized way.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Not nessasarily. There is a concept called a Kalpass. Cyclical time that works more like a spiral than a cycle. So, each turning of the wheel contains all that came before it--there are still the same basic occurences, the same large events, but each time the turning is larger, enriched and altered by what went before. So there is progress, and growth, its just... slow.

 

Or did you mean the scientific idea of the Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle? That doesn't really forestall spiritual growth, you know. Especially if reincarnation is in the game.

Yeah, I did mean the Big Bang. I only meant, looking at things on the whole, if physical identity was all there was (not what I believe, though) and that everything will eventually go exactly back to what it was, progress is inevitable.

[Samuraiflip05]

This is the 3rd thread I have posted the following thought in...lol.

 

What if the 3rd Age is only "3rd" because recorded history doesn't predate the "1st age".  What if at some point and time (TG) the shadow claims victory in some form (partial or complete) heralding an age of darkness.  And at some point the darkness again gives way to the light (Creator/DO) and civilization advances through the ages until it reaches the point of foolish/arrogant search for greater power (AoL) causing the renewed knowledge of the DO leading to TG. 

 

Pretty heavy s*** huh?

[Davian93]

Is this just legend that has grown around this Hero or is he the actual herald of the end of Ages? 

 

I thought that it was actually twins (Shivan and Calian (sp)) that herald the end of the ages.  Not given any additional info from RJ, I would say that they herald the end of every age.

 

I've also seen it theorized that the Twins might actually be the ones the Elayne is currently carrying around in her belly.  Timing would be about right at least. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Shivan and Calian are references to Shiva and Kali, deities in the Hindu tradition.  Although over the centuries many different aspects have been assigned to each, one recurring theme is of destruction followed by rebirth in a cyclical fashion.  For this reason, they fit particularly well as Heralds of the End of Ages, since the end of any Age is simply the beginning of the next: any death is also a rebirth, as long as the Wheel turns.

 

This may mean that they are born to herald the end of every Age, or that they are born to herald the end of a cycle of Ages, or both.  Since Shivan the Hunter (Shiva the Destroyer) is assigned a male gender (often in the Hindu tradition and definitively in WOT) and Calian the Chooser (Kali the Mother-Goddess) is assigned the female gender (again, most of the time in Hindu tradition, and definitively in WOT), it is quite possible that Elayne's twins will fill this role ...

[The Dragon Reborn]

That's an interesting idea for the twins. I always thought it just meant that they would both be able to channel, well that's the first thing that jumped out at me anyway.

[Davian93]

I'm not saying its a definite but it does pass an initial sanity test (i.e. no definitive denial by RJ or the text)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, its by no means certain.  I mean, there's one very good argument against it: if the "Age switch" occurs at Tarmon Gai'don, or immediately following, then Elayne's babies won't even be born yet.  She's less than three months along, not even showing yet, and there's no way Tarmon Gai'don is more than six months away.  So, if Calian and Shivan actually have to do something, then they're probably not going to be involved in this one.

 

I personally lean toward the idea that the Herald the end of each seven Age cycle, not each Age individually.  But there is clearly not enough information to say with certainty that it is one way or the other.

[Samuraiflip05]

An easy way to decipher the 1 age 7 age question could be the fact that nothing about them is mentioned during the breaking or the events that followed, at least not to my knowledge.  That would indicate that it is perhaps not each age that they herald.

[Kura]

Well RAW, the end of the age doesn't have to be directly after TG. The issues with the Seanchan and mainland Randland, the WT and BT, and so many other things are going to take time. I'd say its plausible for the twins to grow up, and do whatever they have to and herald the end of the third age, when everything is settled, or cataclysmicly destroyed, either or.

 

And Samuraiflip, I'm not so sure the AoL was its own, unique age. I think the third age is the "Age of Channelers", and AoL was just the climax of it. I don't remember where, but I remember RJ  saying that more with Min's ability will be born, and wolfbrothers are becoming more common. Sniffers even, new abilities are arising, and who can tell what the full potential is for these? Maybe Min's ability can be trained to influence events? Its just speculation, and with RJ dead we'll probably never know the answer, (May he rest in peace.) but I think its plausible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well RAW, the end of the age doesn't have to be directly after TG. The issues with the Seanchan and mainland Randland, the WT and BT, and so many other things are going to take time. I'd say its plausible for the twins to grow up, and do whatever they have to and herald the end of the third age, when everything is settled, or cataclysmicly destroyed, either or.

 

I agree that its possible.  I just don't think its likely.  But thats pure opinion.

 

And Samuraiflip, I'm not so sure the AoL was its own, unique age. I think the third age is the "Age of Channelers", and AoL was just the climax of it. I don't remember where, but I remember RJ  saying that more with Min's ability will be born, and wolfbrothers are becoming more common. Sniffers even, new abilities are arising, and who can tell what the full potential is for these? Maybe Min's ability can be trained to influence events? Its just speculation, and with RJ dead we'll probably never know the answer, (May he rest in peace.) but I think its plausible.

 

Amen to that.  I posted extensively elsewhere about how the end of the Age of Legends doesn't fit the few things we do know about the end of an Age of the Wheel (specifically the whole idea of new abilities appearing), and that the AoL and the current time period are probably all part of the same actual Age.  But pursuing that will just derail this whole thread. 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Oh, no. Not in this thread too, RAW.

 

Anyways, premature birth, anyone??

[Majsju]

While it says "herald the end of Ages" when Shivan is mentioned in ACoS, it makes a lot more sense that it is heralding the end of the current Age. Since he and Calian must have been spun out at least quite recently (like, 3000 years ago) for Mat to be able to recognize them.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I always read it as herald of the "end of Ages (meaning they herald the death of each individual age)," and not herald of the "End of Ages (like the end of the Wheel)."

 

I'm pretty sure Maj is correct.

 

 

[dyring]

While it says "herald the end of Ages" when Shivan is mentioned in ACoS, it makes a lot more sense that it is heralding the end of the current Age. Since he and Calian must have been spun out at least quite recently (like, 3000 years ago) for Mat to be able to recognize them.

 

Well, Mat´s oldest memory is 2500 years old, so if hes remembering them from those, they have been around without heralding the end of an age aswell ;)

 

//dyring

[Majsju]

While it says "herald the end of Ages" when Shivan is mentioned in ACoS, it makes a lot more sense that it is heralding the end of the current Age. Since he and Calian must have been spun out at least quite recently (like, 3000 years ago) for Mat to be able to recognize them.

 

Well, Mat´s oldest memory is 2500 years old, so if hes remembering them from those, they have been around without heralding the end of an age aswell ;)

 

//dyring

 

Say what now?

 

Mat recognizes the twins because he saw them when he blew the Horn of Valere in TGH. Not because one of the people in his head actually met them.

 

That he does recognize them means there has to be stories about their physical appearances, as well as what they represent. And since a strong theme in the books is that memory becomes legend, legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten next time an Age comes around, it is logical to assume they have been spun out quite recently to still exist in the stories, described well enough for Mat to recognize them. Ie, last time an Age ended, 3000 years ago. And obviously that was not an end to Ages altogether.