House of Cards

[Cory Caboose]

Cory I was worried on my read through that I didn't see much of you. Are my concerns real here?

 

You did not see much of me, that much is true

 

The short answer to the question is no

 

The rest is for AJ's eyes only

 

 

I'm trying harder to be a driving force less early so I can see what other people do of their own volition and it's not like I'm going to clear myself through volume since I'm not afraid to post as a wolf so there's really no reason for me to go full sledgehammer until it's important - IE closer to EODs.

 

Something I learned by mentoring a lot is that I see the game state far better when I'm not driving it by myself and letting other people move the thread in the way they choose. This has been my meta switch for really most games that don't involve a heavily controlling and crafty player like Tom where I need to be constantly involved in the thread to make sure he/they don't pocket the entire thread. Understand?

 

[Andrej]

So you guys just want to add like 4 pages as I'm trying to catch up, but now you don't wanna talk?

[Clovdyx]

The blunter way to say that would've been "I disagree but I also don't think you're bull****ing"

 

I appreciate you nonetheless Clovdyx.

 

That might not have stood out as much....

[Andrej]

I certainly do.

 

I will keep this in mind as we progress, thanks for the insight.

[Cory Caboose]

I really need to go to bed but I'll stick around for another ~10 in case there's anything pressing

[Andrej]

Go nightnight.

[Andrej]

Having just wolfed with Cass I think that post reads strikingly similar to what I read from her last game. She doesn't really come across to me as an against the grain type so her having 4 scum reads in more or less ~accepted greens is strange.

[Darthe]

Love when there are specific players dangerous enough that you have to work differently on the off chance they are a wolf.

[Andrej]

What do you mean?

[Cory Caboose]

I think he's talking about the "I would have to approach it differently if a player like Tom were in the game" blurb

[Andrej]

Well, he shouldn't have been reading that.

[Cory Caboose]

Darthe you under mafia arrest for violating the sanctity of a "for [player]'s eyes only" post

 

How do you plead

[Cory Caboose]

While that first sentence does not seem grammatically correct, it seems aesthetically correct if you read it in an Arnold voice

And that's good enough for me

 

goodnight

[Andrej]

It's been a turribly long day and tomorrow is likely to be almost as bad, so I will bid you lovely people adieu for the evening. Looking to see a bit more from the aussie contingent and I need to re-read the stuff I skimmed in between playing interior decorator today, so I should have thoughts and reads and whatnot tomorrow night.

 

Especially whatnot. I'm all about the whatnot.

Looking forward to these.

[Darthe]

Darthe you under mafia arrest for violating the sanctity of a "for [player]'s eyes only" post

 

How do you plead

Is this when I'm supposed to use the drudge siren thing?  

 

I plead unapologetically guilty.  We all know how I feel about boundaries.

[Darthe]

I could have sworn there was a particular island/country/continent that was awake at just this time.

 

Australia is FROZEN

[Darthe]

Cass/Dice, you can resist me but...

 

CAN YOU RESIST THE GOLDBLUM?

 

[Andrej]

No one resists the Goldblum.

[Cass]

[v]Cass[/v]

 

I don't understand most of those reads at all.  I don't see how you can say Darthe has been defending Nyn at all, and I'm not sure you can make a fair case of "distancing" when he's actively trying to get pressure on the slot.  Pushing him for seer cover makes no sense to me.

 

Where has Kaylee been pushy at all?  Observant questioning, sure, but I don't see how you can argue that's anti-town.

 

Hey Clov,

 

TLDR:

They're early leans based on gut and skimming the first 14 pages.

 

What actually bothered me about Darthe til there was a sense of both defending/distancing from Nyn, and being forceful on the Seer cover in a way I don't necessarily agree with.

 

The Nyn thing may have been premature, re-read showed me one post of yours saying she was 'more likely to be Town' that I read as his which (not surprisingly) seemed out of place at the time and further confused the issue. FWIW though, I'm still not sure on the interactions between the two and I still feel Darthe is at best hedging on his read of her.

 

I have no issue with Seer cover, or suggesting it, but I do think that it makes more sense to try and make as many peeks as possible be accurate by EoD. Both to avoid giving wolves a free pass and to make it harder for them to eliminate cover as false because it's obviously not the real thing (think April Fools). 

 

I'm not pushing Darthe for Seer cover, I'm suspicious about the way he's going on about it. So far his stance is coming across over the top to me and my concern is that it's a role-fishing push to encourage a higher percentage of incorrect cover.

 

 

Full version:

 

Here's what I said about Darthe:

 

 

Darthe - forceful on early Seer cover, ?explanation in post #54, both defending/distancing from Nyn, 'pre-vote' /overly hard push on Sooh

 

 

Here's what pinged me about his discussions on Nyn:

 

 

 

The first post that stood out as possibly 'both defending/distancing'. Basically:

 

1. Cuts in on questioning between you and Nyn to suggest Nyn was simply agreeing. Felt like he was trying to shut that line of questioning down.

 

2. Responds directly to Nyn and both pushes her as proddy and wolfy and adds in the caveat of 'this sort of aggression is, albeit, typical Nyn stuff to try and shake people up'. Gives him leeway to both push further and back off without drawing suspicion.

 

 

 

It was in response to Darthe saying that Sooh is coming across wolfy to him.

 

I guess I'm getting hung up on your use of the word "basically" there.  It makes me think you're trying to clarify something or responding to a direct question, not just adding on.

 

1. Basically implies that she agrees I think.

 

Clov came in and made a joke about the scum team's identity, naming three players that haven't posted yet. You asked him if that was a soulread and then asked if it was a aussie theme. The whole post sounded fake to me and I did not care for it.

 

Darthe's opinion of how you usually play means squat to me. Other than mentoring you in a game, I don't think we've played together before so my focus is on your play in THIS game. And OMGUS FoSing me for allegedly sheeping Darthe (of all people! lol) is not making you look any better in my eyes. I also find it interesting that I'm getting FoSed but Darthe isn't even though, under your consideration, your content so far doesn't warrant it.

 

 

Any other thoughts you have to share?

2. Unlike the two above me I particularly dislike this post.  The bold looks like brushing off at best (and redirecting at worst, "why isn't HE in trouble for this type of posting") and your underlined appears proddy.  This sort of aggression is, albeit, typical Nyn stuff to try and shake people up but it's also generally a poor cover for actual depth in your play as a wolf imo.

 

 

 

The next response when you questioned him felt like back-tracking from the push of Nyn as wolfy:

 

Disagree with your take about the underline being proddy.  I don't see how that's prodding her at all.  Your take on the bold is accurate enough for me, but I don't think Nyn brushing off a pretty weak push before the game has officially started is alignment indicative for her.

I should have split that up.  I used to scumread her for the underlined but no I recognize it's just Nyn being Nyn.  I simply happen to dislike it.  It's a bit harsh where she could be cooperative and get a lot further imo.

 

 

 

 

 

Another one where he appears to evaluate her response as Town:

 

 

1. It's really not brushing off if you think about it. You FoSed her and pre-voted her based on meta. I FoSed her on a specific post I did not like (and now also on a reaction I didn't like). She walks in all.... I don't get how anyone can have a read on me based on my content so far. So I'm gonna give Darthe a pass and not address what he said at all, but I'm going to FoS Nyn for it. That doesn't add up to me. If she feels that she's being pushed on false pretense....... then her reaction makes no sense whatsoever.

 

2. I actually feel good about you making this post, even though I disagree with you, you're normally pretty bad at getting me. I'd be worried if you were lol

 

Oddly content with this post.  Remembers my vote, defending with content, arguing against thin reads as per your norm.  

 

 

 

And then this is the post of yours that I somehow read as Darthe, which made it seem like he was flipping on his Townish read:

Nothing stood out - that's precisely the point.  I never have trouble reading Nyn correctly D1, because she makes it so completely obvious.  She didn't do that this game, so alarms went off.

 

 

 

 

These are the things that bother/ed me about the way he's pushing early Seer cover:

 

 

 

Oh yeah.

 

I'ma push you all for seer cover and to actually put it out there if you are seer.

 

Put your peeks out people.  It's important.  

This feels false/over the top. At this point he's already posted his own fake peek and explained the Seer cover process enough for people to make up their own minds.

 

 

Followed later by: 

 

 

My peek hasn't checked in yet.

 

I think we're better served following Tom the Tom's advice and waiting towards EOD to reveal. Players unfamiliar with seer cover may have troubles keeping that consistency through out the Day that wolves can see and cross them out as legit peeks. The less time there is for that, the better.

 

Think before you claim.

Maybe that pans out more in a long game, I'm not familiar enough to say one way or another with certainty.  What I do know is that early peeks are more likely to be wrong which both increases the odds of clearing yourself as not the seer if you're mafia or of you being the seer if you got it right.  It's all a strange dichotomy.

 

 

Post #54, which was highlighted in my list. The explanation makes little sense to me from a Town perspective.

Here he essentially says:

 

- Early peeks are likely to be wrong

 

which:

 

- Increases the odds of clearing yourself as not the seer

- Increases the odds of you being the Seer if you get it right.

 

Both of these points seem to more strongly favour Scum finding the correct Seer, IMO (Wolves can discount any cover that's false, and hone in on cover that's right). His tone is playing this down through hedging his understanding/brushing it off as a 'strange dichotomy'.

 

 

Kaylee pushes him to clarify, and he hedges again:

 

/Snip

 

The black says it pretty well.  I've never played in this format (Turbo's are quick so it doesn't matter as much) so I don't honestly know what is better here.  I know that doing it earlier is more risk, more reward but I'm not sure if that is +ev compared to waiting to put out peeks.  

 

 

 

But continues pushing/encouraging leaving early peeks, even though in #54 he admitted that early peeks are more likely to be wrong:

For those of you not in the know N0 peeks are usually random and included in your role PM.

 

 

So I wasn't actually joking about that N0 peek btw.  It was random and provided at the beginning of the game (I assume to avoid faltering during N0 and so that we couldn't develop reads).

 

Hally = Nyn btw Kaylee.

 

My town list is now:

Darthe

Tress

Clov

Cory

Kaylee

Nyn

 

 

Wolves ya'll gotta step this game up.  That pool is getting tight.

 

Oh, and [v] sooh [/v]

 

If you don't follow me on Sooh you're wrong.

 

 

 

That is some great cover and I thank you.

 

 

 

 

Too early to vote IMO, but so far it doesn't exactly feel right. Make more sense? Will answer re Kaylee in a separate post.

[Nynaeve]

Darthe often flip flips on his read on me (see Arthurian mafia game). He just has a hard time reading me. And as I said earlier... if he was green reading me right off the bat that would prolly worry me. What he's doing right now isn't.

 

Also not surprised to see my name on your list since you have a tendency to perceive me as scummy. We've talked about this before.

 

 

Overall I disagree with a significant chunk of your list but I haven't decided yet if it's likely to come from scum you or not. Talk to me about your town leans. Do you have any?

[Cass]

[v]Cass[/v]

 

I don't understand most of those reads at all.  I don't see how you can say Darthe has been defending Nyn at all, and I'm not sure you can make a fair case of "distancing" when he's actively trying to get pressure on the slot.  Pushing him for seer cover makes no sense to me.

 

Where has Kaylee been pushy at all?  Observant questioning, sure, but I don't see how you can argue that's anti-town.

 

Again, early impressions and was just putting my thoughts out there. I agree with the observant questioning - my notes said pushy/observant questioning and that there were moments of quick agreement that felt off because that's the impression that I got. Here's where those thoughts came from:

 

 

 

 

Maybe that pans out more in a long game, I'm not familiar enough to say one way or another with certainty. What I do know is that early peeks are more likely to be wrong which both increases the odds of clearing yourself as not the seer if you're mafia or of you being the seer if you got it right. It's all a strange dichotomy.

I'm confused. Are you saying that it's better to wait? I'm asking because it seems like at first you're disagreeing with AJ, then agree.

 

The bold sounds like you disagree with him.

 

Green is sounds like you agree.

 

Can you please clarify?

 

 

I actually liked Kaylee's actual questioning/line of thought here. Her tone, particularly in the last three lines seems blunt and snappish to me though, possibly ready to push an agenda.

 

 

Darthe can you please answer my question?

 

Also reads as pushy. Initially struck me as impatient. 

 

 

 

The black says it pretty well.  I've never played in this format (Turbo's are quick so it doesn't matter as much) so I don't honestly know what is better here.  I know that doing it earlier is more risk, more reward but I'm not sure if that is +ev compared to waiting to put out peeks.  

 

Ok thanks

 

 

NP, got any reads yet?

Feeling better about you since your reply. There's been a lot of joking and it typically takes me awhile before I can really read people.

 

I liked AJ's idea about waiting to reveal peeks.

 

 

I found Darthe's response as fairly wishy-washy, and it stood out to me that Kaylee settled quickly and felt better about him following his replies.

 

 

 

 

 

I will throw out Kaylee, Darthe, and Verb as town though. Probably could not be talked into lynching either of them D1, barring a massive slip. Right now, I'd be torn between Nyn and Leelou but without much confidence on either.

Any particular reason you picked them? They joked a lot but I haven't seen much else from them.

 

 

Leelou's response to Verbal's insinuating she might be mafia felt off to me.  I would expect Leelou to want to interact with Verbal, and it seemed to be more closing communication than opening it.

 

I can't really place my finger on what stood out to me about Nyn.  I've always felt I've had a pretty good grasp on her, but I just didn't really get town vibes from her.  

 

 

That makes a lot of sense actually.

 

Similar questioning and quick-agreeing pattern with the thing I found most scummy about Clov.

 

 

Which changes after this post by Nyn:

 

 

I can't really place my finger on what stood out to me about Nyn.  I've always felt I've had a pretty good grasp on her, but I just didn't really get town vibes from her.  

 

lol  sure, okay

 

 

 

 

That makes a lot of sense actually.

I mean about Leelou.

 

 

Essentially I again agree with Kaylee here, but the later clarification and retrospective lack of questioning if she thinks the Nyn comment makes less sense stood out in comparison with her other posts.

 

 

 

 

Clov came in and made a joke about the scum team's identity, naming three players that haven't posted yet. You asked him if that was a soulread and then asked if it was a aussie theme. The whole post sounded fake to me and I did not care for it.

 

Darthe's opinion of how you usually play means squat to me. Other than mentoring you in a game, I don't think we've played together before so my focus is on your play in THIS game. And OMGUS FoSing me for allegedly sheeping Darthe (of all people! lol) is not making you look any better in my eyes. I also find it interesting that I'm getting FoSed but Darthe isn't even though, under your consideration, your content so far doesn't warrant it.

 

 

Any other thoughts you have to share?

I like this post of Nyn's.

 

 

Kaylee's simple agreement with this post of Nyn's feels too quick. It's definitely possible that she just reads Nyn better than me but the bold of Nyn's bothers me because it seems overly harsh (lolScaryNyn). 

 

 

[sooh Quote Snipped cos too many quote blocks]

 

Kinda ironic. You call Nyn sheeping Darthe for adding on to his comment about you... yet you're the 3rd to comment on this post of her's.

 

I didn't really see this as ironic, or worth mentioning unless the motivation was to discredit Sooh's reply.

 

 

[Darthe quote snipped cos too many quote blocks]

 

Actually three people said they liked it.

 

This felt pointless? 

 

 

 

 

Never said pushing people is bad form. Just called it ironic as I saw it you did something you called her out for.

Fair enough.

 

Does it mean anything to you that I did that?

Seemed scummy...but I have a hard time reading you. For now you're in my null pile. I should say I tend to read you wrong so I'd like to see more from you before making up my mind.

 

 

 

Im gonna talk this out with Halli. Clov is far from being my top choice for a lynch at the moment.

 

On my cell right now but Sooh responding that she was waiting to hear AJ out before mentioning Darthe is a BS response. So instead of bringing up thoughts and concerns of her own in regards to him characterising her town meta as very townie she lays back and waits for AJ's impending push on him????

Good point on Sooh. All the more reason for me not to like her for town.

 

 

 

 

Not really that ironic imo. Feels like you're trying to call Sooh a hypocrite with using the word "hypocrite."

I was basically calling her hypocrite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's what I actually said after the first read:

Thoughts to p. 14

 

/snip

 

Kaylee - pushy/observant questioning - quick agreements with Darthe/Clov felt off 

 

 

And here's more explanation/where I'm at on Kaylee after re-reading to that point:

 

- I still feel her tone is pushy, though I'm less inclined to think of it as a wolfy tell at this point. She uses lots of full-stops/really short sentences when she's giving her opinions and it is potentially this which gives me bad tone-vibes/comes across as overly blunt to me.  I'm reading her the same way I tend to read Nyn, and in that light I'll admit that me reading her as pushy is probably unlikely to be alignment indicative;

 

- Kaylee agrees with a lot of Nyn's content;

 

- I still like her questions if not her tone;

 

- Her 'quick agreement' may be more related to my interpretation of her tone;

 

- The way she corrected herself at the time but didn't question Clov on his early read of Nyn still stands out to me;

 

- I'll keep her in wary null for now.

[Nynaeve]

- Kaylee agrees with a lot of Nyn's content;

 

Can you blame her?

 

 

On a serious note, I typically find it difficult to read Kaylee but I can see her actively trying to figure things out and that's a good sign imo.

[Nynaeve]

Kaylee's simple agreement with this post of Nyn's feels too quick. It's definitely possible that she just reads Nyn better than me but the bold of Nyn's bothers me because it seems overly harsh (lolScaryNyn). 

 

*laughs*

[Cass]

Pulled some quotes as I was catching up just now, will get them sorted and responded to in time.

 

Sooh/Cass wagons aren't bad atm, I think.

 

As much as I hate being mislynched D1 and want to stay in the game, I actually agree with this at this point. I think either of our flips would be potentially good for info. 

 

Going back to here-ish and will try to address the stuff 'against' me before I get called to dinner.

[Cass]

Got interrupted by dinner after all... 

 

Here's a breakdown of players posting against me thus far:

 

Darthe

 

- Push started after I mentioned being more suspicious of him than anyone else thus far and voiced disagreement with his driving early Seer cover even though it's more likely to be inaccurate/more helpful to the wolves;

 

- Calls my list awful, plants seed that I'm deliberately being TWTBAW - does not question anything he finds suspicious;

 

- Hinges on the fact that my early leans are different to his and that I haven't provided a 'compensatory' number of town reads/that he can't understand me starting with a base of 'reading more-likely scum', when he knows after discussions in our mentor chat that that is exactly how I work;

 

- Has a point about my leans positionally and the odds that at least two of them are wrong;

 

- Calls my notes 'poor reasoning' and 'flimsy' but doesn't question/discuss anything specific.

 

 

 

This is an awful wolf list.

 

Cass are you attempting to incorperate TWTBAW by chance?  If so just use our codeword.  It's Clovian Dongonomics if you forgot.

 

 

 

'Awful' because it has you at the top so early on, perchance? You sir, are on my watch list. If it's genuinely awful to you and you are Town, discuss with me why, or just bite me - you pointing out that it's awful without further discussion is still scummy, especially since you're one who has specifically told me it's ok to be 'wrong' sometimes  

 

I do bite, you know?

 

But truly you used poor reasoning to put four of my town reads into a wolf pile and didn't provide a compensatory number of town reads.  Unless you start reading everyone as scum and work your way up (no clue why you would do that) there isn't any reason to have everyone positionally where they are since you know you have to be wrong about at least two of them.  Also, I thought the reasons didn't just look flimsy, they looked like you were trying to find a reason to fit those people into those reads.

 

 

I could have sworn there was a particular island/country/continent that was awake at just this time.

 

Australia is FROZEN

 

 

 

 

Clov

 

- Votes early

 

- Doesn't understand my reads, but gives specific reasons why and asks specific questions for more info

 

 

 

[v]Cass[/v]

 

I don't understand most of those reads at all.  I don't see how you can say Darthe has been defending Nyn at all, and I'm not sure you can make a fair case of "distancing" when he's actively trying to get pressure on the slot.  Pushing him for seer cover makes no sense to me.

 

Where has Kaylee been pushy at all?  Observant questioning, sure, but I don't see how you can argue that's anti-town.

 

 

 

 

Hally

Says she doesn't like my reads, wrt to Kaylee. Fair enough, at this point.

 

 

Also, I agree with Clov re: Kaylee.  Not liking Cass's reads.

 

 

 

 

AJ

- Votes early

- Simultaneously suggests that my post was 'strikingly similar' to game we wolfed together and calls it strange that I have scum reads on ~accepted greens because I'm not usually 'against the grain'.

 

 

 

[v]Cass[/v]

 

 

Pulled some quotes as I was catching up just now, will get them sorted and responded to in time.

 

Sooh/Cass wagons aren't bad atm, I think.

 

 

Having just wolfed with Cass I think that post reads strikingly similar to what I read from her last game. She doesn't really come across to me as an against the grain type so her having 4 scum reads in more or less ~accepted greens is strange.

 

 

 

 

Cory

 

Cass you've been a wolf like the last 4-5 games and I have seen you coast on little blurbs of "villagery content" with no real dedication or commitment to figuring out the game - and nobody pushes you for whatever reason

Just letting you know if you are a wolf here I will not be allowing you to do this for as long as I'm alive

 

 

 

Cass you've been a wolf like the last 4-5 games and I have seen you coast on little blurbs of "villagery content" with no real dedication or commitment to figuring out the game - and nobody pushes you for whatever reason

Just letting you know if you are a wolf here I will not be allowing you to do this for as long as I'm alive

 

I don't know if it's the timing of this post, or the implication that she posted "villagery content", but I'm really suspicious of this post.  The idea is probably basically null for Cory - he can make these town leader posts (I don't really know what to call them, bold is what I'm referring to here) as any alignment - with maybe the slightest hint of town, but this seems completely out of place here.

 

 

 

Don't blame me because you made a post insinuating she's going to skate on villagery content after she made an incredibly sketchy reads list and three people pointed it out.

 

Wasn't calling her content villagery, was referencing her last like ~5 games where she's post 5-6 times a day and they'd all be "long, villagery posts" IE long WoTs with no real content that people don't bother to read and just say "well she wrote a lot of words, so that's villagery" and continued to ignore her

 

I haven't even read the post she made yet in an analytical eye, just sort of skimmed over it

 

Darthe often flip flips on his read on me (see Arthurian mafia game). He just has a hard time reading me. And as I said earlier... if he was green reading me right off the bat that would prolly worry me. What he's doing right now isn't.

 

Also not surprised to see my name on your list since you have a tendency to perceive me as scummy. We've talked about this before.

 

 

Overall I disagree with a significant chunk of your list but I haven't decided yet if it's likely to come from scum you or not. Talk to me about your town leans. Do you have any?