Rand's Madness

[Lothlan]

Hi, i was wondered... everybody in the series assume that Rand becomes crazy when he starts to hear LT in his head, but is that really be a crazy guy? I say this because that LT voice was real (with real memories and all) so wasn't exactly an hallucination. What do you think?

[Sabio]

If you believe Semirhage the fact he was hearing LTT's voice in his head and it was real actually made his situation worse.   

[mb]

long ago I had a theory that Lews Therin entered Rand around the time of Rand's birth.  now I am not sure about that theory.

 

Rand's sanity depends on at least this:: whether or not a sane person can have a dead person's memories (and still be sane).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Rand was most definitely insane. That the memories are real are of no consequence. He rejected Lews Therin's personality, denying the connection, forming the separate 'voice' in his head creating a split personality. In the end he accepts Lews Therin as himself and the personality is accepted, but the Taint madness still affected him. No normal person has memories of past lives. 

 

Rand thinks he was insane, and RJ was clear that Rand was insane. 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 2nd, 2009

Ending The Wheel of Time: The GeekDad Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

GEEKDAD

Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand al'Thor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head—sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordan's notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid—I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I'd been told that "Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad," but I didn't accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand's head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he'd promised: "No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he's seeing part of his past life, but he's going insane. It's the immense pressure that's doing this." In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it's hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

 

Rand managed to accept his madness and control it in a way that he became functionally sane. But technically, while he does not exhibit - after his 'unification' with Lews Therin - the signs of what we deem as typical insanity - voices, delusion, frothing at the mouth stuff - his brain is still wrapped in insanity. 

 

It depends also on what you define as insanity. Is it functional insanity, where you define insane as how 'bad' they are, or a technical insanity where it does not manifest in a harmful way, in fact in the end it ends up manifesting positively, but nonetheless it is still a type of insanity. 

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

"no normal person has memories of past lives"

"standard" definition of normality does not apply to rand,i am not saying he wasn't insane,

he definitely was,but he also was different,"normal" persons (asha'man included) don't have

white liquid power inside their brain,rand did,so what exactly was it?a defence organism 

against the taint installed by the pattern since birth?an enhancing performance organism?

something else?we simply don't know,but we do know that rand's brain was different.you

just cannot compare him to others.

"rand managed to accept his madness and control it in a way that he became functionally sane".

rand was more than just functionally sane,he was an extremely innovative individual,throughout

his entire wheel of time journey rand proved his ability to think out side the box many times.

 

during the field of merrilor meeting,rand gave me the impression that he was the only sane person

inside the pavilion,surrounded by a bunch of insane idiots. lol.

 

a few years ago,terez submitted very interesting posts about rand's madness,i tried and failed to find

them yesterday,just wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction?

[mateodh]

I always equated sanity in the Wheel of Time to being able to filter out all the lives and memories inside one's head, being someone constantly reborn and spun out, and focus on the present life. Among other things, the Taint wears at that filter, allowing other lives to slip in. In this way, it is true that LTT is really there, and also true that Rand would not hear him fully sane. This would also be why Aemon bled through when the taint of the Shadar Logoth blade was at its most potent in Mat, near to consuming him.

[mb]

about Aemon bleeding through::

Mat's chant in Eye of World chapter 18?  That was before Shadar Logoth.

or in Dragon Reborn chapter 18?  he was being Healed then.

do not remember whether or not he shouted it on-screen between those scenes.  though I seem to recall he shouting it in later scenes; and he seemed fully Healed in those scenes.  do not remember exact scenes.

 

about sanity/insanity

there could be different forms (and different degrees) of both; depending on interpretation.

and there could be a thin line between sanity and insanity (with any form of either); that line could be different with different people.  again depending on interpretation.

[mateodh]

The tDR one, from what I recall, he was in the process of being separated from the dagger, which had such a hold on him that the Aes Sedai weren't sure he could be.

[Lothlan]

Ok, so asuming for a moment that Rand is mad; this means that Mat is insane too? considering that he also have memories from other guys in his head? And Perrin, who seems to have two identities inside of him for a very long time (Perrin and Young Bull) because in a first moment he doesn't accept his wolf nature, just the same that Rand with L.Therin. So, are the three Ta'veren crazy?

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's not so simple. First of all there is no real comparison to the real world with having memories given to you like Mat did, or being a wolfbrother like Perrin is. 

 

Rand's insanity wasn't just because he had Lews Therin's memories. It was the disassociation and the creation of a split personality manifesting in a voice in his head. The taint madness also manifested in other ways in terms of megalomania and paranoia. He was going mad just like all of the Asha'man. In ToM Nynaeve can see the extent of his madness. It seems after his Dragonmount moment the 'light' is protecting him from it, allowing him to regain his temperament, but before that, well, he almost balefired his own father and destroyed the world. He was quite insane.  

 

Mat's memories are of a different nature and non-comparable. I don't think you could define what Mat has. I'd hesitate to call it insanity as such, but definitely constitutes 'not normal'. You could call it insanity, but I don't think he was 'crazy' like Rand or the Asha'man. More like he has a strange anomaly. 

 

Perrin's is the hardest to define, but ultimately I don't think you could call him insane. Being a wolfbrother is a natural part of the WoT world, it isn't a mental illness that could be classed as insanity. The struggle between wolf and man is a natural one kinda like a teenager discovering their identity. I'd define Perrin's struggle more of a mental challenge similar to depression rather than actual insanity. 

 

If they lived in our world though. All three would be in mental institutions. 

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

"it seems after his dragonmount moment the light is protecting him from it.."

it's not clear when exactly rand received his mesh of light inside his brain,

there isn't a shred of evidence to point one way or another,yes,it could have been

post dragonmount epiphany or it could have been right from the very beginning.

 

"allowing him to regain his temperament."

same here,there isn't a shred of evidence to say that rand received an outside help from

the light  post dragonmount epiphany to help him regain his equilibrium,in my opinion,

he did it on his own,rand stood on top of dragonmount an fought a terrible two-fronts

inner battle(himself vs the cyclical nature of the world,and vs his former self) and won.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Logic dictates that this light material was formed after Dragonmount, or else Rand would not have suffered any madness. Unless you are suggesting he was completely sane at all times. If so, that's just not true. The Taint drove Rand as mad as it did the other asha'man. His actions from tDR - ToM show a descent into madness which culminates at the end of tGS. He may have gained strange powers by the end of the series, but he was always quite human and affected by the taint. 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 27th, 2009

TGS Midnight Release Preliminary Report - Matt Hatch (Paraphrased)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov, 1993

Trinity College Q&A (Paraphrased)

ROBERT JORDAN

He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland expect...

 

 

As for the second, if Rand really did do it himself - which I agree with - then the light can't have been formed before DM. If it was around from the start, then he always had protection and aid, which doesn't fit with 'Rand had no outside help from the light.' 

 

Most likely the light was formed at the moment or shortly after he had overcome his struggle on DM. He had finally accepted himself and his role, and somehow he gained this 'light barrier' thing. This fits all categories, that Rand chose on DM himself, and that choice led to the protection. Further evidence is Rand does not experience any symptoms of maddness that he had before DM, but the madness was still there, only now shielded by the light stuff. 

 

Rand didn't cure his madness, the light protected his brain from the taint. So he was aided in regaining his sanity. Where that aid came from is another question. It is possible it was an effect of the Pattern, upon choosing for himself wether he would fight or succumb to the Shadow, he came into his own and the light was a side-effect. Some say it was the power of the Creator, the creator's version of the TP. I'd hesitate to believe that. I think it would have been more ta'veren and an effect of being the Dragon. 

 

It's possible that Rand himself created the protection - not in the sense of actually weaving a foreign power on his own brain, but came about as the result of his actions. 

 

Whichever way it was, the light in his brain protected him from the taint and took away the symptoms. Rand didn't overcome madness. He accepted his fate and the truth, not dispel the Taint. The taint madness was still with him, only now shielded by the light. 

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

ok,let me try to tackle this subject from a different angle.

first things first,let me remove rand's madness out of the way,as mentioned in my

previous post,i do believe that rand was insane.

in a different thread,we called the black spikes inside ashaman's brains taint tumours,

so let me call the mash of light inside rand's brain taint antidote,in my opinion,rand was

born with it(courtesy of the pattern),and this taint antidote was inactive or dormant in 

rand's brain until dragonmount.

during his dragonmount epiphany or just after,rand did activate the taint antidote and

became immune to the taint madness.

that's been my point all along,rand didn't receive any outside help during his dragonmount

epiphany,he was born with the tools to enable him to complete his job,the solution to his

madness was always inside him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

That makes sense. I didn't get that impression in your previous posts which seemed to suggest the light had little to do with curing or alleviating his madness. 

 

I was going by this: 

 

 

"allowing him to regain his temperament."

same here,there isn't a shred of evidence to say that rand received an outside help from

the light  post dragonmount epiphany to help him regain his equilibrium,in my opinion,

he did it on his own

 

Which suggests the light had nothing to do with his recovery, when the light is exactly what is staving of his madness. I guess I misunderstood the 'outside' part as if it had no influence. Makes sense now that you meant it wasn't an external force that gave him it, but something he had. 

 

Now that you've explained, I think that is a good possibility. I don't think there was any active external force that gave him it. I don't know if it was 'dormant' as such, there's really no telling, but I agree it is likely that Rand either created it, activated it or made it happen in whatever way because of his choices on DM. It's possible that it is a manifestation of ta'veren power, or another unique power of being the Dragon Reborn like being 'one with the land'. It might be as simple as a connection to the land, his mindset turned 'healthy' (as he makes things grow etc..) and it was a result of some kind of two-way protection. He made the land healthy, which gave him protection. 

[mb]

about Mat's memories, they were given by the Eelfinn and originally came from people who visited them and/or visited the Aelfinn; doorway/doorways and/or Tower of Ghenjei.

and no voice comes with those memories.

[mateodh]

Ok, so asuming for a moment that Rand is mad; this means that Mat is insane too? 

 

At the time when he was at a breaking point with the dagger, yes, that's what I believe. Once Healed and recovered, he was "sane" again and IIRC did not have instances like that. The memories he received in Rhuidean are different. They were placed into the part of his mind where his actual life experiences used to be before he lost those- the "holes in his memory," so accessing them is no different for him than remembering things he'd actually done in his current rebirth, except for having so many more than a 20-something should have.

[Sabio]

I could see the possibility of having all those memories could make some one insane.  If they started having trouble deciding what were other peoples memories and theirs.  Mat seems to have a pretty strong will  so don't see he going loony over those.

 

With the dagger not sure if that would be considered insanity or not, he was basically being corrupted and being taken over from the inside,

[Cosmic Champion]

Mat was acting a bit strangely before the group even entered Shadar Logoth and he acquired his dagger.

 

The Eye of the World Chapter 18 The Caemlyn Road:

Mat yells: "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!"  ("For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun.") 

 

So, what was that about?

[mateodh]

I don't think Aemon popped into his head when he picked up the dagger. I believe he was always in there, and that LTT was always in Rand.

[Sabio]

That was the old blood coming out, not sure if it was ever  determined if he had a lot of the old blood or was really a descendent of Aemon.  Thought RJ shot down the Mat was Aemon reincarinated theory.

[mateodh]

Thought RJ shot down the Mat was Aemon reincarinated theory.

 

I figured someone would mention if he had. If I'm wrong about that, then at the very least, I would maintain that it can't be coincidence that both Rand and Mat experience memories/behaviors that aren't theirs to an extreme when deeply held by a taint of some kind, and hold that as evidence that Rand can still be considered mad for hearing LTT in his head even if LTT is actually there.

[mb]

Thought RJ shot down the Mat was Aemon reincarinated theory.

can you provide a link?

[Sabio]

Nope just could of sworn RJ said something  about Mat not being Ameon reborn.  Just he  had a lot of the old blood in him.  Not 100% positive but I could  of sworn I read it.

 

Mat had no memories of Ameon that were his own, he  was is simply pouting the old tongue.  For me the difference is Mat had no memory that could be attributed to Aemon  himself, while Rand has LTT's specific memories.

[mb]

not sure if a non-channeler (in the Age of the series) could get the memories of any past incarnation.

 

And there are at least these differences between Mat's memories and Rand's memories::

-the means in which they got them; Mat's through a deal with the Eelfinn, Rand's through some other means.

-Rand's also had a voice; Mat's did not.

[mateodh]

not sure if a non-channeler (in the Age of the series) could get the memories of any past incarnation.

 

I'm not either, but Mat had the rare occasion for a non-channeler to be affected by a Shadow-related taint(yes, I use the word "taint" freely) unique to male channelers like Rand.

 

 

.... differences between Mat's memories and Rand's memories::

-the means in which they got them; Mat's through a deal with the Eelfinn, Rand's through some other means.

 

Mat later would receive memories from the Eelfinn, and there's no reason to my mind that those memories had any connection to the dagger because the Eelfinn just had them and gave them as part of the bargain, and probably could have done so to anyone. His episode in the White Tower in the Dragon Reborn, though, was long before he met the Eelfinn. He already had something in him, unrelated, that led to him barking orders to long-dead soldiers, and it manifested at the very time said darkness was being forcefully removed from him.