Rand's Madness

[mb]

Eye of World scene and Dragon Reborn scene seem to give the same explanation::  Old Blood

 

Shadar Logoth also changed Fain; and characters Fain had conversations with seemed also affected.  Do not recall frequent speaking of the Old Tongue with them.  except Fain; though that could have been due to his merge with Mordeth.

[mateodh]

Eye of World scene and Dragon Reborn scene seem to give the same explanation::  Old Blood

 

 

An opinion, but not mutually exclusive with old-life memories if true. 

 

 

 

 

Shadar Logoth also changed Fain; and characters Fain had conversations with seemed also affected.  Do not recall frequent speaking of the Old Tongue with them.  except Fain; though that could have been due to his merge with Mordeth.

 

I don't recall him speaking the Old Tongue, but he chose the name Ordeith because it meant "wormwood" in the OT, so he at least knew something of it that a peddler wouldn't have. Whatever traits Fain has post-Shadar Logoth can certainly be attributed to his merge with Mordeth, but he takes on at least a few other aliases throughout the series. That's not out of the ordinary, but it could fit into a puzzle where he doesn't know who he is anymore...

[Sabio]

But you have to remember before going through the door Mat didn't really have any memories just spouting phrases in the old tongue.

 

Well hard to determine Fain since the poor guy had been changed by the DO, merged with the dagger taint, and also the black wind. Not to mention his experience with the fades and such as he was being forced to chase Rand had left him at least a little insane.  He was pretty crazy when Moraine was questioning him.   For me it sounded like Mordeth  was taking over the body and soon Mat would of been Mordeth.  It possible with Fain that since the DO touched Fain's soul and then the black wind encounter Mordeth would of never been able to take Fain over completely.  But pretty sure he would of been gaining all of Mordeth's memories. 

[mateodh]

I'm open to the idea that his experience in tDR chapter 18 was not a memory, but that's how I personally understand it, especially with the flashback-italics used. I agree that it is impossible to pin any particular aspect of Fain's madness given all the things that have happened to him, but it still checks two boxes on things he has in common with Mat.

[mb]

As far as I recall, Old Tongue has always been in italics.

 

And as far as I recall, flashbacks have always been part of the character's POV.  Dragon Reborn chapter 18 was Egwene's POV.

[mateodh]

Must have the wrong chapter, I will double-check when I get home, but it's just after being separated from the dagger, while in Tar Valon, and it's Mat's POV, in italics but in English.

[mb]

Must have the wrong chapter, I will double-check when I get home, but it's just after being separated from the dagger, while in Tar Valon, and it's Mat's POV, in italics but in English.

that was the next chapter.

it could have been a flashback of Falme.

[mateodh]

Here are the parts I'm talking about.

 

 

From tDR chapter 18, when he is being healed/separated from the dagger:

On the table, Mat thrashed in the middle of the glow, jerking this way, then that, muttering incomprehensibly. But he did not loosen his hold on the dagger, and his eyes remained closed. Slowly, ever so slowly, he began to arch his back, muscles straining till he shook. Still he fought and bucked, until finally only his heels and his shoulders touched the table. His hand on the dagger sprang open and, quivering, crept back from the hilt; was forced, fighting, from the hilt. His lips skinned away from his teeth in a snarl, a grimace of pain, and his breath came in forced grunts...... Suddenly Mat shouted, loud and strong. “Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem!” Arched and struggling, eyes squeezed shut, he bellowed the words clearly. “Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!”.............. Egwene frowned. She had learned enough to recognize the Old Tongue, if not to understand more than a few words. Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar! “For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the Red Eagle!” Ancient battle cries of Manetheren, a nation that had vanished during the Trolloc Wars........ With a loud pop of tearing leather, the golden-sheathed dagger rose from Mat’s belt, hung a foot above his straining body. The ruby glittered, seemed to send off crimson sparks, as if it, too, fought the Healing. Mat’s eyes opened, and he glared at the women standing around him. “Mia ayende, Aes Sedai! Caballein misain ye! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye! Mia ayende!” And he began to scream, a roar of rage that went on and on, till Egwene wondered that he had breath left in him..... “What was that he was shouting, Mother?” Elayne asked, then hastily added, “If I may ask.” 

“He was ordering soldiers.... In a battle two thousand years gone, I would say. The Old Blood comes again."

 

Then afterward, chapter 19, when he's recovering:

"Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem,” he murmured. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked—something.

 The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans’ number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.

They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. “Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward!” His bannerman rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.

Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.

He drew his sword, raised it high. “Forward the Heart Guard!” He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. “Forward!” He was first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. “For the honor of the Red Eagle! 

The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. “The Red Eagle!” Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut his way ever deeper. Win or die. “Manetheren!”

 

 

So he's referencing things like Dreadlords and Trollocs which, to my memory, were not present at Falme. 

[mb]

Like another poster seemed to speculate, Mat might have came close to being merged with Mordeth.  There might be some chance of those memories being Mordeth's.

[mateodh]

It's possible that Mordeth was a high-ranking officer of Manetheren before coming to Aridhol, since we don't really know anything of his origins before that, but that's a shot in the dark, whereas we know the person in the flashback commanded the entire army at a battle remarkably similar to the one describe by Moiraine in tEotW and in the BWB, which was commanded by Aemon. 

[mb]

Something that occurred to me after making the post::

The near merge with Mordeth might have somehow caused the memories.

the how I am not sure on.

[Sabio]

Yeah it doesn't even say when Mordeth arrived in Aridhol, except the King, in great despair over the course of the war, gladly welcomed a man called Mordeth to his court; Mordeth won Balwen's ear and mind.  I just assume he was there before Aemon died since  it would exlplain Aridhol abandoning Manetheren.  I often wondered how he won the King' mind so completely, almost seems like compulsion.  If it wasn't for Mordeth trying to take folks over I would of suspected he was really Ishy.

[mateodh]

I just assume he was there before Aemon died since  it would exlplain Aridhol abandoning Manetheren.  

 

You're right. Logically, he had to have been in Aridhol before Aemon died, because Manetheren died right about when Aemon died, so there would have been no Manetheren to betray.

[mb]

From Eye of World chapter 19, Mordeth came to Aridhol when Thorin was king of Manetheren.  From chapter 9, Thorin was Aemon's grandfather.

Though it seems to me that someone else besides Aridhol betrayed Manetheren; not sure on the who/what.  Chapter 19 told that Manetheren attempted to avenge the death of Caar (Thorin's son, Aemon's father), but found Shadar Logoth instead; not sure which king lead them, but I take it was before Aemon's death.

[Orderofolde]

long ago I had a theory that Lews Therin entered Rand around the time of Rand's birth.  now I am not sure about that theory.

 

Rand's sanity depends on at least this:: whether or not a sane person can have a dead person's memories (and still be sane).

Nicely put!

[Orderofolde]

That was the old blood coming out, not sure if it was ever  determined if he had a lot of the old blood or was really a descendent of Aemon.  Thought RJ shot down the Mat was Aemon reincarinated theory.

He was Aemon reborn.  He vividly remembered leading the Heart Guard in its last defense of the river and of Manetheran.  He might also be a descendant on his mother's side since Cauthon doesn't have the royal al' preceeding the last name, but genetics don't really seem to factor in much in the story, only the soul does.  Of course, you can argue that Rand's mother was Tigraine and so on and so forth, but it really didn't matter.  You had the pattern influencing various foretelling and prophesies for thousands of years.  In LTT's time Rand was the one likely spoken of but we have no prophesy that old, we just know that Rand's coming, that of the Dragon Soul, was foretold, and the Aes Sedai pieced it together, especially Gitara, that his mother would be Tigraine and in order to do so, she had to go to the Maidens.  The problem was, the pattern would have guided the prophesy regardless of Aes Sedai meddling so ensure that this happened.  Prophesy isn't spoken to be followed, it is spoken to prepare people and to be proof of what is to come.  Aes Sedai never really understood it except perhaps for Moiraine, who waited in the mountains until Rand was fed up enough to strike out on his own and be guided by the pattern.  Rand followed it like a checklist though, and really overcame a lot in order to reach Tear, and you have Mat and Thom, and Moiraine and Perrin all doing their part in a masterfully orchestrated dance where neither know what the other is doing.  Even the BA were distracted by finding the girls and putting them into the Stone.  It was simply time, and it happened in its own way.   

[mb]

The near merge with Mordeth might have somehow caused the memories.

the how I am not sure on.

Am now not sure about that near merge.  Mordeth seemed to be fully merged with Fain by then; and Robert Jordan told that souls could not be split.

something else seems more likely.  not entirely sure of what that "something else" would be, but the Old Blood could be one possibility.

 

 

 

 

long ago I had a theory that Lews Therin entered Rand around the time of Rand's birth.  now I am not sure about that theory.

 

Rand's sanity depends on at least this:: whether or not a sane person can have a dead person's memories (and still be sane).

Nicely put!

 

thanks.

[Guest jc1138]

(long post warning)

 

I've been thinking a lot about this topic recently.

 

(full disclosure: started WoT in ~93, have read/re-read books in the series many times, especially the first 7, 8-11 a few times, and 12-14 only once (14 in Jan '13), currently in CoS in a full-series re-read.  Although I've read a lot of WoT and a lot about it, I have far from an encyclopedic knowledge.  Sometimes I can get a little long-winded on posts, but hey, it's WoT…).

 

I am very interested in mental health in the "real world" and of course in WoT.  In the real world, "madness" and it's synonyms often describe behavior that differs from social norms, but how it is understood, and how people who exhibit "madness" are treated varies tremendously.  Current Western Medicine places people into categories via diagnoses, but there can be many problems with diagnosis, as it can be reductive and poorly serve individuals and an understanding of lived experience. "Madness," or "insanity" is explored a LOT in WoT.  In WoT mental health issues are often called "madness," "insanity," or people "crazy."  Madness/mental health whatever you want to call it is so important to WoT that it is (arguably) the main thrust of the prologue of the series for crying out loud.

 

Some points about madness in WoT from a general standpoint:

• Directly linked to DO/evil in many cases
• Directly linked to male magic
• Caused upheaval and near-complete destruction of civilization at the end of the AoL/start of the 3rd Age.
• Very different than mental health disorders observed, studied, treated, etc. in "real world"
• Can involve dissolving barrier between past/current lives
• Can include "voices" from past lives that include things that really happened
• Men who are mad, or who may become so (due to the power/taint, but we can suppose due to more mundane reasons because of fear, misunderstanding, prejudice, etc.) subject of massive man-hunts, great efforts to contain, etc.

Now, to get to Rand specifically.  I've had issues with the "Rand is crazy" quotes.  I don't care who says them.  RJ.  BS.  It doesn't matter to me.  

 

(PS, I'm very much of the "death of the author" school--I don't think that what an author/artist says about the work outside the work is any more "definitive" or "relevant" than what a reader or viewer may think--I see far too much "well, RJ said XXXX so we can stop discussing the point, how can you disagree with the writer?"  Quite easily and comfortably, actually.  I find it more interesting and satisfying to meet the work and what is presented on it's own terms, from what is found in the text).

 

So, Rand.  Here are some (very rough) sketched out thoughts of how I see his mental state (including "issues") developing (which, I've seen other posters aptly point out, develops well with his power, character arc, etc):

• EotW: Feels in over his head, but no real "mental breakdown" imo
• TGH: Rand starts to alienate his friends, stirrings of some mistrust and paranoia.  He also really tries to mentally "toughen" himself up (this goes on for many books, obviously)
• DR: This really threw me for a loop the first time, as Rand seems to have taken a big jump, and is so dissociated from how his narrative and mental states were previously handled.  Rand is secretive, intensely afraid of being "found" (not without good reason), assuming disguises and feeling compelled.
• TSR: Rand seems to become much less "barely hanging on" as he was in DR, and more as we will come to know him in 5-11(ish).  Commanding and expecting to be obeyed, more easily losing temper, planning for the long game, willing to "do what is necessary" (including go against deep-seated principles/morals on occasion), megalomania, savior-burden.  Although it is not much discussed, I think it is very difficult for Rand to not be able to go back and help the Two Rivers, and for him to instead leave it for Perrin.  I think it takes Rand a long time to "forgive" himself for not going/being able to go.
• TFoH-LoC: Lots of issues of dissociated identity with LT's voice, self-doubt, and self-mistrust.  More evidence of Rand's self-loathing.  We see that Rand values learning, knowledge, planning for a better future, law, justice, and so on.  We get more and more of the sense that Rand is taking on all of the problems of the world onto himself (we hear so many times about duty being heavier than a mountain--I always think about the Hey Jude line "don't carry the world upon your shoulders"!).  Very dark times for Rand in the box before Dumai's Wells--Rand is becoming less sure of his mental state, trusting his decisions, etc.
• CoS-KoD: More "hardening" of personality, ramping paranoia, thoughts of "my might makes right" (Callandor scene in PoD), glory for it's own sake (reflections he has on wearing the Crown of Swords), temper on an even shorter leash, huge self-flagellation/survivor guilt with his "list," etc.  Becomes less and less trustful, less able to experience emotions.
• TGS: Was pretty blown away by the places Rand goes in TGS--so near going to "game over" for the whole wheel, pattern, etc.  My head was really spinning when he TP--balefired Sem.  We get his acceptance and turnaround in VoG.
• ToM-AMoL: Rand learns to accept his roles and responsibilities and powers, deals with all the (many) problems.  Becomes "balanced" and centered.  Free at the end from all that has burdened and tormented him.

So what of Rand's actions or what happens to him could be called "mad," and what are their consequences?  A (brief) list to consider:

• The voice of LT (as we know, really just Rand from AoL).  Fallout?  Tremendous knowledge of one power, gets Rand out of many jams when he doesn't know enough, a "companion" of sorts in the box, but also scares Rand and causes him to doubt himself and his mind, a few times causes a sort of "split-personality," when one side of Rand wants to do one thing and another something else (more on this later).
• Increasing paranoia.  Fallout: alienates friends, potential allies, etc., could affect his plans for the worse.
• The fact that he channels Saidin in a "fallen" (post-taint) world.  Consequences: pretty much everyone, including Rand himself, has a massive prejudice and fear (justified or not) of men w/ magic in WoT.
• Lack of ability to feel (empathize?).  Fallout: bad for relationships, again.  Bad for judgement and choices, planning.
• Actual dissociations from "reality," in which he cannot judge the "real" from the hallucination, make basic right/wrong choices based on his set of values, or perform actions to which he could be described as being "not accountable" due to mental illness/madness.

No doubt that Rand's mental torment, from the taint but also I would argue from the tremendous strain of his position, the strain, responsibilities, and constant state of readiness he must be in (many times he has a great, cinematic battle in media res, when something else is going on and he did not have time to prepare) (incidentally, many people with ptsd suffer not from a single horrifying event, but from prolonged periods where they were in a lot of danger and were on "high-alert"…..).  The question of this entire (dissertation) post is how much does this really affect Rand and his actions?  Strain?  Certainly.  Paranoia?  Yes.  Burden?  Unequivocally.  These each make Rand's story a struggle against himself as well as the evil and powerful political and supernatural forces against him.  But actual Madness… as in: "He could not have chosen to do other wise because his mind was in a state in which he could not have chosen to act otherwise, and he is not responsible for those actions."  I don't think I can go that far.  I see the seeds of this happening to Rand, especially with the times when (paraphrase) "Lews Therin seized the source" because here we see Rand not taking responsibility for his actions.  And in TGS Rand is doing very evil and heinous things, but they are conscious choices.

 

The lack of feeling is also pretty important, as the inability to feel empathy is a feature of many of the more disturbing mental health disorders. . .  How much can this fall in the "madness" category?

 

So much goes back to that EotW prologue.  Something sometimes missed, I think, in criticisms I see leveled when people knock the Last Battle scenes between Rand and the DO, and how Rand doesn't kill the DO in an effort to preserve choice.  Choice is a major theme of the entire work.  Compulsion is such a fascinating exploration of magic and choice (and really makes me reassess the Jedi Mind tricks I see in Star Wars, though I love those films and it can be FOLLY to use the ideas of one imagined world to assess or evaluate another, it can help you to see things in new ways).  Warder bonds.  Ta'veren.  Min's prophecies.  The Oath Rod.  Damane.  The pattern.  The Snakes and Foxes, the concept of circular time, so many concepts in WoT explored choice, and what influences people's choices, and what makes people free.  With the DO/Rand in the Last Battle, some criticize what we got because they thought all of a sudden they feel that the DO and choice stuff kind of came out of left field and detracted from the good/evil narrative.  I respect people's right to their own interpretation, but I liked that the fight became about "will," and "choice," in addition to good and evil (which the question of choice is always a part of), and saw those elements throughout the series.

 

This relates pretty strongly to Rand's (potential or actual) "madness" because, back to the EotW prologue, we see tragic and sort of mind-bending effects of madness (so powerfully presented) that explicitly removes those choices, from Lews Therin specifically.  At first he isn't even aware of what he did or what is around him, and only through the intervention of someone aligned with evil (a former ally, lots to explore there), does he see that he killed his wife, children, friends, etc.  Was this his "fault?"  LTT certainly thinks so and suicides himself, but he had no intent or even awareness of his actions--they would not have happened if he was not "mad."  In other words, he had no choice in the matter.  

 

Some may argue that it was his choice to strike at SG, and he had to live with the consequences which the kinslaying was one of, but the actual acts were the acts of "madness."

 

Back to real world mental health.  "Madness" and "Insanity" are and have been greatly influenced in how they have been understood and defined by the legal system, with a person's ability to distinguish right from wrong, "accountability" and so forth at question.  In many people's lived experience (esp. in the US and other places, and I say this as a US citizen who is proud to be a member of the USA but finds MANY issues and problems with the system, also, I am an American Indian, so….yeah), people with any label from mental health is seen as "lesser," "not as good/capable," "flawed," "unworthy," "not-to-be-trusted" and so on.  However, I hope these attitudes change, and the fact that the protagonist (Rand) of a 14 volume epic fantasy series faces some of these issues I find to be AWESOME, and pretty bold.  

 

I don't really find him "crazy," though.

[Sabio]

Fain is a special case in that he has a few factors involved.

 

1. A soul that has been directly touched by the DO.

2. Contact with the black wind

3. Contact with Mordeth

4. Clearly insane

 

Both #2 and #3 should of killed him.  I think like Moraine its the direct touching of Fain's soul has protected it in a way, unable for either being to totally consume it.  So when  Fain and the black encountered each other they left a mark on each other allowing them to communicate in a way.  The black wind trying to consume a soul such as Fain's could of altered it also.  The contact from Book 1 meant that by book 2 Fain's brief  contact with the dagger left him with a small ability to control the black wind.  I always thought the black wind and the fog in Shadar Logoth could also in some ways be somehow related or at least similar.  Possibily allowing Fain to command it.