Game of Thrones Season 5 - BOOK SPOILERS!

[Red2111]

@ Red #2 - True, Thoros of Myr didn't sacrifice anyone to bring Ser Beric back multiple times, although Ser Beric did die himself when resurrecting Catelyn.  But as Mirri Maz Duur said to Dany, "Only death can pay for life". Ser Beric lost part of his humanity every time when he was brought back by Thoros.   The best way to resurrect someone per Mel's shadow magic is probably going to require a sacrifice... and also, if Mel is at the wall and Stannis is presumed dead somewhere outside of Winterfell, it may be that the only way open to her to try to resurrect Azor Ahai is to sacrifice with king's blood.

 

 

It just occurred to me that - if my theory is right - when Melisandre burns Shireen, she'll be waking a dragon (a Targaryen) from stone (death/being frozen in the ice cells), in a way.

 

Hah.

 

bold - o.0  how so??  Aemon was the last of the dragons left in that part of the world ....  unless your believe in the L & R = J theory

 

re-burning:  i think thats taking for granted that the witch lady and Millie and Thoros are using the same magic.  Millie and Thoros are ... but i dont think the witch from book one that killed Drogo was tbh.  the description and the way it was done were entirely different; not to mention the results.

 

with Beric ...  it was stated or at least hinted at heavily, that he could only go through a resurrection one more time after the Hound, so him dieing after bring back Cat had less to do with needing a sacrifice and more to do with the fact he had already been brought back so many times before.  that said, there is a cost to magic, Martin has made sure to incorporate that aspect which is wonderful.  i just dont think the cost for resurrecting Cat was Berics life.  i think the cost there was the loss of Cat's humanity.  

 

Millie has shown that her magic has a price as well, with the doppleganger that killed both Renly and Theons dad.  perhaps shes strong enough to redirect that cost away from Jon ( & Ghost *crosses fingers* ) and onto a sacrificial lamb (aka Shireen).  so your theory on Millie and sacrificing Shireen is very valid imo and makes sense.

[SinisterDeath]

edit - speaking of Danny and greyscale.  Jorah touched her ...  does that mean she now has grey scale?   or does a person need to be touched with a visibly effect part of the body.

 

I believe it has to be the afflicted area.

The people that came into contact with Jorah, were entirely covered.

 

1 - i can get what your saying here ...  but its sorta like the argument of a hedge doctor versus brain surgeon when talking about cancer.   a hedge doctor says "you aint cured, it'll come back" and the brain surgeon says "we cut out all of the cancer, your in remission and theres a 99.9% chance it wont come back" i'm gonna believe the brain surgeon *nods*  it sets up doubt on Shireen being cured, sure ...  but its not a credible doubt ... its more like superstition because they've never seen it cured.  (granted not seeing it cured is the majority, isn't Shireen the only one to have been cured??)

 

The 7 kingdoms also thought the wildings were full of shit about white walkers.

How's that working out for the wall these days?

[Songstress]

 

 

@ Red #2 - True, Thoros of Myr didn't sacrifice anyone to bring Ser Beric back multiple times, although Ser Beric did die himself when resurrecting Catelyn. But as Mirri Maz Duur said to Dany, "Only death can pay for life". Ser Beric lost part of his humanity every time when he was brought back by Thoros. The best way to resurrect someone per Mel's shadow magic is probably going to require a sacrifice... and also, if Mel is at the wall and Stannis is presumed dead somewhere outside of Winterfell, it may be that the only way open to her to try to resurrect Azor Ahai is to sacrifice with king's blood.

 

 

It just occurred to me that - if my theory is right - when Melisandre burns Shireen, she'll be waking a dragon (a Targaryen) from stone (death/being frozen in the ice cells), in a way.

 

Hah.

bold - o.0 how so?? Aemon was the last of the dragons left in that part of the world .... unless your believe in the L & R = J theory

 

re-burning: i think thats taking for granted that the witch lady and Millie and Thoros are using the same magic. Millie and Thoros are ... but i dont think the witch from book one that killed Drogo was tbh. the description and the way it was done were entirely different; not to mention the results.

 

with Beric ... it was stated or at least hinted at heavily, that he could only go through a resurrection one more time after the Hound, so him dieing after bring back Cat had less to do with needing a sacrifice and more to do with the fact he had already been brought back so many times before. that said, there is a cost to magic, Martin has made sure to incorporate that aspect which is wonderful. i just dont think the cost for resurrecting Cat was Berics life. i think the cost there was the loss of Cat's humanity.

 

Millie has shown that her magic has a price as well, with the doppleganger that killed both Renly and Theons dad. perhaps shes strong enough to redirect that cost away from Jon ( & Ghost *crosses fingers* ) and onto a sacrificial lamb (aka Shireen). so your theory on Millie and sacrificing Shireen is very valid imo and makes sense.

I subscribed to R+L=J before I even discovered fan theory discussions on the internet

 

Re: Mel / Thoros / Mirri - Mel and Thoros worship the same god, yes, but Melisandre has been described as a shadow binder (which is not what Thoros was doing) and the blood magic she's performed already bears much more resemblance to Mirri Maz Duur's. I think Mirri was attempting shadow binding as well

[Nolder]

1) The wildlings believe that greyscale can't be cured - in ADwD, Val refuses to have Shireen anywhere near Monster, because she's "unclean" - she says the Grey Death sleeps, only to wake again.  So indeed, it was set up that Shireen was on borrowed time due to her affliction.

 

2) In the books, Selyse, Shireen and Melisandre are all at the wall, while Stannis is marching to Winterfell.  My guess is the show runners were told by GRRM that Shireen does get sacrificed by Melisandre, but it's not Stannis' decision, and it may be part of the aftermath of the Pink Letter.  Mel and Selyse may make the decision to burn Shireen in order to resurrect Stannis, figuring that the Boltons killed him - and Mel probably specified "Azor Ahai" in her prayer to R'hllor and Jon gets resurrected instead.  

 

3) Regardless, that was some absolutely amazing acting by Stephen Dillane, Kerry Ingram, and everyone else.  And nobody is ever freaking going to like Stannis again.

1) I think what matters in this situation is whether Stannis believes it is cured. He does so he wouldn't order his only daughter and heir to the Iron Throne burned alive.

 

2) I forgot Melisandre was at the Wall in the books so I can see her maybe trying to burn Shireen in an attempt to bring Stannis back to life. But at that point it's important to note that she's doing it without Stannis knowledge or say so. It doesn't make Stannis bad (although other things might).

 

3) At least not show watchers that's for sure.

[Songstress]

Nol - the greyscale bit was a separate issue - SD said he thought he expected Shireen to die eventually because of that and there was some disagreement because she was "cured".

 

And I expect in the books Shireen's death will be without Stannis' knowledge, personally. Not a big fan of the choice to do it this way in the show, but we shall see where they take it. Show Stannis is thoroughly despised at this point.

[Nolder]

I think they're just trying to recreate the gut punches the show has been known for such as the execution of Ned Stark or The Red Wedding.

The problem with this one is it's out of character for Stannis. It wasn't out of character for Joffrey or Boltons/Freys to do what the did.

 

Now people will probably make the argument that Stannis has already allowed people to be burned and even tried to do it to his brothers bastard.

Granted. Stannis isn't the best of guys in that regard. But he would never allow his daughter to come to harm. Is that hypocritical? Sure but that's his character.

So before anyone makes that argument I'm cutting it off there. Killing his daughter isn't in his character it was shoehorned in for the show.

 

What makes that disgusting to me is that there are plenty of gut wrenching moments in this series.

It wasn't necessary to artificially add this one.

 

AND ADDITIONALLY

It wasn't even done well. As Wombat noted the build up was poorly done.

They didn't have the time to make it clear just how bad the army was doing and that they were all in danger of dying and/or losing the war right then and there. They needed more build up with people freezing to death, fighting over food, looking to Stannis to do something, etc.

 

The problem is they didn't have that time BUT I'd argue maybe they would have had more time had they not focused on side shit, particularly the Grey Worm and Sam romances. Like ok sure yeah one is fan service for show viewers and the other is a cute little love story that book readers will like but when you're adapting a book to film there are things that need to be cut and things that need to be included. Showing the dire situation of the army was something that needed to be included if they wanted to rewrite Stannis character and showing Sam and Grey Worms romances were NOT something that needed to be shown.

 

The showrunners majorly screwed that all up IMO.

[Nolder]

I'm almost willing to forgive it all though because that sequence at Hardhome was just...amazing.

[SinisterDeath]

Now people will probably make the argument that Stannis has already allowed people to be burned and even tried to do it to his brothers bastard.

Granted. Stannis isn't the best of guys in that regard. But he would never allow his daughter to come to harm. Is that hypocritical? Sure but that's his character.

So before anyone makes that argument I'm cutting it off there. Killing his daughter isn't in his character it was shoehorned in for the show.

 

Stannis is utilitarian and practical before he is sentimental. It is entirely within his character to off his daughter, (even if he does love her) for the greater good. And, he's still fertile, he can produce many, many more heirs when he is King.

 

 

AND ADDITIONALLY

It wasn't even done well. As Wombat noted the build up was poorly done.

They didn't have the time to make it clear just how bad the army was doing and that they were all in danger of dying and/or losing the war right then and there. They needed more build up with people freezing to death, fighting over food, looking to Stannis to do something, etc.

Definitely agree it was poor timing, and had little build up. I don't know if it just started late in the series and didn't' have time to get there yet, or.. and this is my personal theory.

HBO is giving us the 1-2 punch. First Sansa, then Shareen, But neither of those are meant to be the full torsion jaw shattering, upper cut that will be the finale.

[Nolder]

You think that's happening this season? I was expecting it early next season but they do seem to be pushing it forward a bit.

[SinisterDeath]

You think that's happening this season? I was expecting it early next season but they do seem to be pushing it forward a bit.

I don't know if they'll try to take down Snow this season or not. Its hard to know if that hail-mary is season 6... 

BUT they have already foreshadowed it. Snow Should be returning to the fortress Sunday with some wildlings.

We already have that kid who already hates wildlings. That kid is fairly obviously going to be plotting something with the others.

Whether we see Snow entering the keep sunday, but nothing happens past that and we get a broken jaw after watching season 6 opener..

Or they do it this sunday. Have Jon enter the keep first part of the episode. Then kill him off near the end of the episode.

 

 

*Edit*

Hmmm.

Course we haven't seen Sansa in a while. Perhaps we might see her fleeing with Bree, and runs head first into lady stone heart, with a hanging?

[Nolder]

Dunno why you all think we're going to see Cat again. Pretty sure D&D dropped that storyline.

[WWWwombat]

It's happening right at the end of the season finale imo.

 

Cat is not coming back.  No point to it imo with Jaime in Dorne.

[Red2111]

i hate to say i agree with Nol, but i agree with Nol in this case.  both Shireen's death and Sansa's Rape were HBO's "we've gotta have a Red Wedding this season damnit" type of move.

 

i also agree that its not in Stannis's character to off his daughter, even for the greater good.  i think with Stannis;  while he maybe a rigid asshole, his daughter is the one thing that he would bend over backwards to protect.  iirc, Millie suggested burning her before, or killing her or something and Stannis disagreed with her and protected his daughter.  i think it was when she was wanting Kings Blood for her fire on the Stone, and she was like "well theres your daughter, you can have other heirs and she's already marked for death" and he was like "well one of Roberts bastards lives here, how about him??"

 

 

 

@ SD - ummm  Jon got back to the keep already in the last episode.  they showed the kid glaring daggers at him while he was talking to Sam. 

 

Jon a'la Caesar Style is going to be the season ender *nods*

 

 

Nol - the greyscale bit was a separate issue - SD said he thought he expected Shireen to die eventually because of that and there was some disagreement because she was "cured".

And I expect in the books Shireen's death will be without Stannis' knowledge, personally. Not a big fan of the choice to do it this way in the show, but we shall see where they take it. Show Stannis is thoroughly despised at this point.

 

^ this

 

 

It's happening right at the end of the season finale imo.

 

Cat is not coming back.  No point to it imo with Jaime in Dorne.

 

^ this. 

 

Bernie is in Winterfell and Jamie is in Dorne.  if Stoneheart was coming into play, they woulda put in the lynch scene with Bernie and she'd be on her way to Jamie right now instead of gogn all stalker on Sansa.

[SinisterDeath]

@ SD - ummm  Jon got back to the keep already in the last episode.  they showed the kid glaring daggers at him while he was talking to Sam. 

 

I honestly missed that scene then. I'm going to have to go back and re-watch that part. 

But.. that does put him in-line to being at the right location now....

[Nolder]

The only reason I feel like it's not going to happen is we haven't had enough setup for it IMO. Strictly my opinion. I'm sure others will think the Ollie thing was enough.

 

BUT THEN AGAIN

 

I figured Dany riding off on Drogon would be the cliffhanger for the season so yeah maybe they're gonna drop it at the end of the finale.

Would make sense in regard to needing a big cliffhanger.

[SinisterDeath]

[Red2111]

@ Nol -  theres been plenty of set up for the Jon thing.   Ollie wan't the only one to take insult with Jons idea to take in the Wildlings.  theres also the left over resentment from the elections.   you can see it on the faces of the men, Jon has very few allies and theres a tension at the wall so thick you'd need a sword to cut through it.

 

unlike the bit with Shireen, HBO has done a great job of giving enough lead up to what will happen.  and making it better, the lead up has been subtle enough to still make people go "NOOOOO" when it happens, but blatant enough for people not to go "but that doesn't make sense!!"

 

 

had they done the same with Shireen's death ....  i dont think any of us would be as disappointing in HBO as we are over it.

 

 

i just hate seeing characters being killed pointlessly.

 

 

 
too soon man ... too soon  <_<

[Nolder]

I still think they're going to hold it for next season.

 

This season is Cersai walking naked through the streets of kings landing imo.

[SinisterDeath]

Could be. It's 50/50 with Jon. Finale, or season starter are both entirely possible.

[Nolder]

Watch us get neither or both lol

[SinisterDeath]

Maybe Sansa will stab Ramsey in the dick during the Siege?

That could be interesting.

[Red2111]

my predictions for the season finale in this order

 

- Dorne wrap up with Jamie and co in a buggy on the way home

- Walk of Shame brought to you by Cersie Lannister.

- Winterfell under siege, feature Stannis and his now insane wife and Millie finding an excuse to go back to the wall

- the Bastard of Bolton gets caught and burned by Stannis, as the show retain the "only one bad guy at a time please" theme

- Sansa uses the siege to escape witht he help of Bernie and takes on Reek as a lap dog.

- Danny finds the horde while Tyrion discovers where the other dragons are and gets a boner

- Mereen descends into utter chaos and Jorah gets dead when they find he has greyscale.

- ending with Jon going a'la Ceaser style

[Nolder]

my predictions for the season finale in this order

 

- Dorne wrap up with Jamie and co in a buggy on the way home

- Walk of Shame brought to you by Cersie Lannister.

- Winterfell under siege, feature Stannis and his now insane wife and Millie finding an excuse to go back to the wall

- the Bastard of Bolton gets caught and burned by Stannis, as the show retain the "only one bad guy at a time please" theme

- Sansa uses the siege to escape witht he help of Bernie and takes on Reek as a lap dog.

- Danny finds the horde while Tyrion discovers where the other dragons are and gets a boner

- Mereen descends into utter chaos and Jorah gets dead when they find he has greyscale.

- ending with Jon going a'la Ceaser style

Quoting so you can't edit later.

 

We'll check your prediction Sunday night.

[Nolder]

 

The next season will be even more impressive and complex. “Between Season 3 and Season 5, our shot count doubled,” explains Bauer. There will be “other environments that we haven’t seen people in before.” Not only that, “The dragons will again be double in size.” 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-dragons-white-walkers-vfx-121365015845.html

[Niniel]

Found this on wotw. Could be a major spoiler for todays episode! Warning!

 

 

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btOBSM9mrk

 

 

I don´t know if this is the real "Previously on..." but people seems to believe it.

 

Benjen! Is he coming back? They showed Jeor Mormont in the episode when Tyrion told Jorah about his father´s death, so it could be that they will just mention him. Or... My imagination is running wild. Is he a white walker? Will he turn Jon into one? Will he tell Jon about his parents? Probably nothing of that but still... exciting.