Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[Nynaeve]

The big thing I want to say is that I think the swing of the game should rely more heavily on the actions/decisions players make without the influence of mechanical/set up stuff. THIS is why I think having some sort of established base line is a positive thing.

You know what's another cool way to avoid game mechanics influencing your playing? having a mental capacity bigger than a tea cup and NOT taking it into consideration when you make decisions. People can either take all options into consideration or simply not game the mod.

 

Why should these details be disclosed just because players can't help themselves?

[Nynaeve]

I mean next you guys are gonna say how you don't like the wifom characters give. ie if someone claims a main character they're likely to be town!?!? OH NO now I'm making assumptions cause I have no idea how the mod would set it up. Guys, mods shouldn't let players claim in a basic game cause we just don't know and we're gonna factor it into our decisions and it's wifom and not fair and wha wha wha.

 

This is mafia. Deal with it.

[Nynaeve]

A doc is a doc. A role blocker is a role blocker. If I want to toy around with the nuances of the role based on my style of modding and my personal signature then I will. I will not use a different role name because that discloses changes I make I dont want known.

 

My way of thinking allows every mod to approach their setup as they wish to. Each to their own as there are a ton of different opinions of what's fair, what's more balanced and so on. What is propsed in this thread agrees with some people but severly restricts the rest. Ergo I would never support it. Or follow it.

 

A mod's game is his own and a mod deserves just as much consideration as the players. A mod doesn't dedicate a ton of time, effort and thought to be dictated how to run his/her game.

[Nynaeve]

So in a nutshell. When it comes to having roles that match the game level you stated.... I'm completly onboard. A player has a right to know what game he's walking into. But anything that involves nitpicking roles mechanics is not okay and something I personally won't tolerate as a mod.

[Nynaeve]

There will always be a level of uncertainty. Even in basic games. And that's the way it should stay.

 

If a mod wants the mechanics behind every role known they're welcome to either clarify to the players as they ask or refer them to a source that explains it (or alternatively state all the roles in the game and detailed info about how each works). But this shouldn't, under any circumstances, be forced on anyone.

 

A player that doesn't like not being told every single detail about the mechanics can easily not sign up. Easy peasy.

[Andrej]

Nyn is obviously against the notion.

[LilyElizabeth]

I think certain things are left to the mod's interpretation. Like the doc thing that was brought up. If players choose to make their own assumption and mislynch because of them, that's on them, not the mod. It hardly needs to be defined as an advanced game just because the roles aren't written in stone. The only player that has the right to be fully informed is the person that had the role assigned to him/her. Otherwise people just need to live with some things being vague. That's when you theorise and make an educated decision and not just blind lynch cause you're 100% sure that's how the mod would have it.

 

It's mafia. Nothing is gonna have 100% guarantee to it.

 

 

I dont have a problem with such a list existing but I think a mod has a right to run a game as he/she likes when it comes to the fine tuning of what a doc protection means or if people are gonna be told they were blocked... and countless of other small nuances that aren't going to be imposed on any mod just because some people get irked at not knowing for sure *shrugs*

 

Nyn said everything I was thinking. Well written, Nyn. 

[hazelkrs1]

What I think it comes down to is that uniformity in the roles would be convenient for some players, but kind of unfair to mods who like to think outside the box.

 

Being one of those type of mods myself, I def think the system is fine as it is.

 

Players should always understand that basically NOTHING in mafia is black and white, and that's part of the fun of it. A BIG part imo.

[hazelkrs1]

And Fwiw, in general I think I'm usually one of the more progressive minded people in the DM mafia community.

 

I just don't think this would be a good change.

[LilyElizabeth]

There are no definites in mafia. I feel totally comfortable with players not having a 100% grasp of the roles even in a basic game. if they did it would be boring. Plus mods have their own style and preferences and I don't like the idea of forcing their hands about little stuff they choose to do as they please. Stuff players don't really need to have mod confirmed. Stuff they can theorise about and reach their own conclusions on. So there's a bit of WIFOM. So what? I consider it to be a good thing. I don't like things to be so cut and dry. it sucks the fun out of it.

 

Again, I completely agree with Nyn. I haven't finished reading the thread, but I will say that if you create a list or a template, I won't be following it, unless Verb makes it a rule here. And then, I'd probably pick up my toys and mod elsewhere. WIFOM is absolutely necessary to a mafia game. 

[hazelkrs1]

Something I WILL say tho is that while I think in this instance we should keep things as they are, I don't really get the hostility towards Yates here.

 

I actually think threads like these are great, since they open up discourse about stuff to see where everyone stands on the issue.

 

I think communication is basically always a good thing

[hazelkrs1]

Doesn't seem like Yates was coming in here with a "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS WILL BE" type mindset. Seems like he was coming with a "Hey what would y'all think if ..." type mindset, and I don't think he should be punished for that

[LilyElizabeth]

I'm sorry if I came across as hostile to anyone. I just have a strong opinion on this topic and have asserted it. 

[hazelkrs1]

It wasn't in regards to you Lily, I'm sorry it came across that way. You didn't sound hostile at all, just opinionated

 

[hazelkrs1]

And I wasn't trying to shame anyone else either, just wanted to kinda keep it coolio

[Nynaeve]

Something I WILL say tho is that while I think in this instance we should keep things as they are, I don't really get the hostility towards Yates here.

 

I actually think threads like these are great, since they open up discourse about stuff to see where everyone stands on the issue.

 

I think communication is basically always a good thing

I don't feel like I was hostile towards Yates. I don't feel like he felt offended by me ( correct me if I'm wrong Yates). I just expressed my displeasure at part of what he proposed.

 

Personally I think guidelines might yield a much better result. But that's just me.

[Nynaeve]

Yates is the kind of person I know I can respond to in earnest. I don't need to sugar code it.

[Nynaeve]

Ie I'm not attacking him. I'm voicing my opinion.

[hazelkrs1]

Maybe I'm just ultra sensitive. It might be getting close to that time for me...

 

dun dun DUNNNNNNNN

 

[Nynaeve]

Gross xD

[Nolder]

I think there's a disconnect here between players who are well versed in mafia not wanting their creative freedoms tampered with and a small group who wish to codify certain things and eliminate inefficiency both to the benefit of mods and newer players. We get it, you don't want people telling you how to run your games or what exactly X role should do. I hope you can understand though that this creates a significant learning curve for newer players that wouldn't otherwise exist while also leading to an uncertainty (ie can a doc protect himself or not?) from regular players that require either explanation every single game or assumptions which are often faulty and can lead to bad gameplay. I think both groups have their points but I don't see why we can't find some middle ground and come up with something that suits everyone. I have a few simple ideas I think could greatly improve things around here without compromising the creative freedom to modify or be experimental with roles that many people are worried about losing.

 
1. Switch To A New Three Tiered System: [basic], [standard], [Advanced]
This idea has been around for a long time and I think there actually is significant support for this idea it's just the people who like it never voice it all at once. What this would do is give a clearer indication what you're getting out of a game. Right now sometimes we play Basic games and either some roles or some mechanics don't quite seem Basic to some people or congruent with learning how to play mafia. Sometimes we play Advanced games and they seem a bit too simple, not the epic kitchen sink game we were expecting. When you move a Standard tier into the middle I think this would help tremendously by sapping the Basic+ and Advanced- games into a whole category on it's own. It's for games that don't necessarily make up roles or mechanics and aren't epic or experimental in scope but are also not geared towards learning the fundamentals of Mafia. I really think this would be helpful for both players and game moderators to better manage their goals and expectations.
 
This also would help up some of the significant backlogging the current queue has. When people sign up to mod a game it will be months before their turn is up. Sometimes people disappear or get busy and when their turn comes they have to drop out or they need to be removed and then if they come back it will be months again before they get another turn. This hasn't been a huge problem in the past but it looks like it's becoming burdensome for people who really want to show everyone their next great idea. They shouldn't have to wait two thirds of a year to do that. Adding a Standard tier will help alleviate the pressure on the Advanced queue because some people just have some pretty mundane games they'd like to run maybe with a certain theme in mind and they only signed up for Advanced because of one role or another. Meanwhile they're waiting behind and ahead of others who have these grand masterpieces that they spent months perfecting. It doesn't make sense for these different groups of people to all wait in the same line. If there's one idea out of what I'm suggesting that I could make happen for sure it would be this one.
 
2. Add New Forum Moderators & Rules
This kind of goes into the backlog and sluggish pace of games thing but as I'm sure many of you are aware it can sometimes take awhile to sticky and unsticky games. Currently this is Verbal's responsibility and his alone I think so the fault is with him. That said...I don't blame the guy. He's the only one who can do this and he has a lot of other responsibilities, some of them significantly more important like child rearing and playing world of warcraft. There's also a problem with people sometimes taking a long time to start their sign ups when they're next in the queue and this has actually been an issue for some time with some people including myself taking it upon ourselves to poke and prod people to start their games. That's not really good because it's not our place and I've seen it cause some sore feelings in the past despite the most harmless and well meaning of intentions. And even with people volunteering to prod it can still take awhile for the people in line to make games or for Verbal to take them out of the queue and OK the next person in line. Again that's not his fault, he can't be here every hour of every day to monitor this stuff some of which happens via PM's. I think adding a couple of mafia board moderators with the sole purpose of helping with sticking/unsticking threads and enforcing a new rule about signups for games would help a lot. It would ease tensions between mods waiting in line for other mods, players poking MIA mods because they want to play a game, etc. And just so it's absolutely clear, I am not putting myself forward and have no interest in being one of these moderators. In fact just because I know with new moderators comes trust issues I would actually prefer these moderators to be current DM moderators if anyone is willing to step up. I don't want to put anyone on the spot but Leelou or Lily for example are long time DM mods and I don't think anyone would have a problem with them helping if they wanted. There are a lot of DM mods involved with mafia so there's lots of options and I'm sure there's at least one or two people who wouldn't mind helping out with this. No need to upset things by adding brand new moderators when current ones would work just fine.
 
Now the more controversial suggestion here is a new rule but I hope it's not actually that controversial. All I'm thinking is something like when it's your turn in the queue you need to make your sign ups within...three days? That covers weekends should that matter. I also think sign ups should last no longer than 1 week from when it's posted. If you're ready to go then your game starts and if you didn't get enough people it's canceled. Too many games sit in sign up limbo for way too long and I think this is a part of why the queue gets so backlogged and runs so slow. The numbers here are all negotiable of course so don't get stuck on that and say the idea is bad because 1 week is too long/short or whatever. If it's too long/short that's fine maybe we can agree on a different length of time but the point is I think there does need to be a time limit and things need to keep being shuffled forward at a steady pace otherwise things start to slow and backlog and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid with these ideas.
 
3. Change The Way Basic Games Work
As noted before part of the major disconnect here is between people who want to codify roles and have clear expectations on game mechanics and people who don't want their creative freedoms infringed on. I think changing the way Basic games work is the best way to compromise between these two groups of people to the benefit of everyone, especially new players. First of all I think we need to note what the primary purpose of a Basic game is so we're all on the same page. I would argue the primary purpose of a Basic game is to introduce new players to Mafia and teach them how to play the game. With that said, it doesn't make much sense to exercise creative freedom in Basic games. I know we're all very creative people and we want to show off our great ideas but that isn't what new players need. New players need things that are set in stone and easy to understand mechanics. Adding the uncertainty of whether a certain role works a certain way can be too much for some people to take in and make the experience overwhelming or unenjoyable. It's fun for us because we don't have the same pressure of figuring out what the hell you're supposed to say or do, we've been through it many times but a new player can struggle with every post and many do so with the fear that if they mess up they will be ostracized. I don't think we need to add role uncertainty into the mix for them to enjoy the game.
 
That said, here's what I'm proposing. Basic games will run on a schedule. Sign ups will open on the 1st of the month and close on the 7th with the actual game starting on the 8th. The game will run on deadlines that will conclude the game by week 4 at the latest just in time for the new sign ups. The games will have predetermined setups that will rotate and all the setups will be open. All roles and mechanics will be defined and set in stone. This way there is no confusion or guesswork involved for new players with how to play. All of their mental abilities will be focused on figuring out their opponents and outsmarting them.
 
This does not infringe on the creative freedom game mods can express in Standard or Advanced games which, let's be honest, most put their efforts into anyway. We don't see many mods experimenting in Basic games. All this will do is clear up confusion for new players and keep Basic games rolling at a steady pace which is helpful to new players who aren't always sure they want to promise their time to something with an undetermined start and end date. It makes it easy to jump in and learn which is what the primary purpose of Basic games are, right? And I think it's clear how a cut and dry schedule would help a backlog.

[Nynaeve]

if I want to run a basic game, I will run it with basic roles but beyond that it's my call. That's the bottom line.

 

As for having more mods, definitely couldn't hurt. But that's up to Verb and not really up for discussion, IMO.

 

As for defining games properly, agreed.

 

So my opinions is: I'm fine with 1 and 2. Huge freaking no way on 3.

[Tommyrod]

I've always found it interesting that people with the loudest opinions on mafia games aren't usually people that play the most. I see this across multiple boards.

[Tommyrod]

Nyn, you realize that the only justification in your scenario for disliking #3 is that you would call your game Standard instead of Basic?

 

You are going to be mad about that?

[Nynaeve]

Nyn, you realize that the only justification in your scenario for disliking #3 is that you would call your game Standard instead of Basic?

 

You are going to be mad about that?

 

Well according to you I'm always mad, so what's new, right?