Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[Yates]

Since forum mafia has become a much bigger deal here, it may be time to actually post DM's roles and how they should work.  In the "Welcome To" thread in the sticky, roles currently link to MS's roles wiki.  The problem with that is that too many of your roles don't actually work the way they are defined on that wiki.  Also, since things were very informal from early on, this got to be like the Wild West where mods could basically stretch the definitions of roles to define them however they want.  This, imo, has lead to too many mislynches based on incorrectly assumed/implied mechanics.

 

Two of the roles that IMMEDIATELY come to mind that I'd really like to see better defined and adhered to are the Doc and Commuter roles.

 

I'd also like to encourage a list of roles that can be defined as "normal" for regular games and "bastard" or some other signifier for games that are outside of the normal role list.  I would think experimental roles would belong in this second group.  That way, people can sign up for games knowing what to expect so they don't get blindsided by some weird mechanic that no one was prepared for.

 

What do you guys think?

[Tommyrod]

Well you can try to define ~20 "standard" roles and how they function, and standard games would use only this set and advanced could use anything. Maybe basic could even be ~10 roles.

[Yates]

I don't even think it would be that hard. Then DM people could link to a page ON DM to show how roles are defined and give it more oomph.

 

We could easily pair down from this list based on the roles we know are used most often. I can take a swag at it.

[Tommyrod]

Roles I would define as "Basic":

 

Investigative:
Cop

Tracker
Watcher

Role Cop

 

Defensive:

Doc

Jailkeeper

Commuter

Bulletproof

Mason
Innocent Child
Godfather

 

Offensive:
Vigilante

Roleblocker

Vote Thief
Doublevoter

Ninja

Janitor

Strongman

 

Third Party:
Serial Killer
Survivor

 

The next tier up would be roles like paranoid gun owner, redirect, bus driver, lovers; stuff that makes the night game more of a puzzle. Maybe those could be incorporated into "Standard" roles.

[Yates]

I feel like these roles should/could exist in a basic game:

 

1. Bodyguard

2. Bulletproof

3. Bus Driver

4. Commuter

5. Cop

6. Coroner

7. Deputy

8. Doctor

9. Double Voter

10. Follower

11. Godfather

12. Goon

13. Governor

14. Hider

15. Innocent Child

16. JOAT

17. Lie Detector

18. Mason

19. Miller

20. Neighbor

21. Neighborizer

22. Role Cop

23. Role Blocker

24. Serial Killer

25. Survivor

26. Tracker

27. Vanilla Townie

28. Vigilante

29. Voyeur

30. Watcher

[Tommyrod]

I disagree strongly with Lie Detector and probably using Coroner as an off/off switch, but otherwise agree.

[Yates]

Roles I would define as "Basic"

Yeah. I expected us to have a lot of cross over on what we thought was "basic." I may have stretched on a couple of roles to give us a bigger pool to work with.

[Yates]

I left out janitor, ninja and strongman as roles that generate too much wifom for a basic game yet left in bus driver and Godfather because I felt like they are just SO common. *shrug* I guess we'd need to better define what we are actually trying to accomplish outside of my primary objective of actually having DM definitions for these roles.

[Yates]

Also, I suspect long time DM Mafia types to have some strong opinions [*cough* Verb *cough*].

[Tommyrod]

I could take out janitor, ninja and strongman as well.

My thoughts are, for Basic games, don't provide intentional WIFOM roles. I guess ninja actually does that.

[Yates]

My thoughts are, for Basic games, don't provide intentional WIFOM roles. I guess ninja actually does that.

I'm with you here. Could even take bus driver and GF out. And probably Commuter and Hider. Make these all "normal" roles but for advanced games?

[Nynaeve]

I think certain things are left to the mod's interpretation. Like the doc thing that was brought up. If players choose to make their own assumption and mislynch because of them, that's on them, not the mod. It hardly needs to be defined as an advanced game just because the roles aren't written in stone. The only player that has the right to be fully informed is the person that had the role assigned to him/her. Otherwise people just need to live with some things being vague. That's when you theorise and make an educated decision and not just blind lynch cause you're 100% sure that's how the mod would have it.

 

It's mafia. Nothing is gonna have 100% guarantee to it.

 

 

I dont have a problem with such a list existing but I think a mod has a right to run a game as he/she likes when it comes to the fine tuning of what a doc protection means or if people are gonna be told they were blocked... and countless of other small nuances that aren't going to be imposed on any mod just because some people get irked at not knowing for sure *shrugs*

[Tommyrod]

I forgot about Neighborizers! Those are fun roles for newbie villagers.

[Tommyrod]

I think certain things are left to the mod's interpretation. Like the doc thing that was brought up. If players choose to make their own assumption and mislynch because of them, that's on them, not the mod. It hardly needs to be defined as an advanced game just because the roles aren't written in stone. The only player that has the right to be fully informed is the person that had the role assigned to him/her. Otherwise people just need to live with some things being vague. That's when you theorise and make an educated decision and not just blind lynch cause you're 100% sure that's how the mod would have it.

 

It's mafia. Nothing is gonna have 100% guarantee to it.

 

 

I dont have a problem with such a list existing but I think a mod has a right to run a game as he/she likes when it comes to the fine tuning of what a doc protection means or if people are gonna be told they were blocked... and countless of other small nuances that aren't going to be imposed on any mod just because some people get irked at not knowing for sure *shrugs*

 

I think we can agree on a "Standard" set of mechanics and night order of operations and then let the mod specify if they're gonna change it up.

 

For example: I think it should be Standard that a player is not explicitly told they are roleblocked unless they would have received a result. I usually result [Town]  [Mafia] or [No Result] for a cop, for example. No Result doesn't specify whether they were RB'd or if they hit a Commuter or something else happening.

[Nynaeve]

I hope the distinction I'm making is clear. I do believe players have a right to know the level of game they're walking into (ie basic, standard, advanced) and setup (ie normal or bastarized). But that's as far as I go. Fine tuning of roles don't fall into this category. it's something players need to take under consideration. That is all.

[Tommyrod]

I like the idea of defining rules for Basic games specifically and blacklisting certain roles as Advanced Only (like that Ventriloquist).

Do you like that idea?

[Nynaeve]

look. I dont care what list you think up. I will run my game how I choose to. if I want to notify my players that they've been blocked, I will. if I dont want to, I wont. if I want a doc protection to protect from all, it will. And if I want it to proect from just one shot, then it will.

 

These things CANNOT be imposed on a mod because you're basically robbing a mod from basically any personal choices and removing a level of complexity from the game.

 

So yeah. I wouldn't follow this, sorry.

[Tommyrod]

Basic and Standard are different gametypes here, right? I don't actually know what the distinction is. I was thinking of making a template for Basic and allowing mod freedom for Standard and higher.

[Nynaeve]

again I dont mind making a list of suitable roles according to game level. But nuiances of roles mechanics should be left to the mod's discretion.

[Tommyrod]

Let's say we did make a template. Do you think asking a mod to specify whether they are following the Actions Template or not is too restrictive?

[Yates]

It's mafia. Nothing is gonna have 100% guarantee to it.

Meh. I think Basic games should have Basic roles with Basic natural action resolution. This protects the players AND the mods. This is especially useful for new[er] mods. Something as simple as defining how a doctor protection works really *is* in the best interests of the game, imo.

 

However, I did anticipate seeing resistance to change from entrenched veterans and will absolutely take that respectfully into account moving forward. All I can ask is that you look at it with an open mind and not push for simply doing something "because that's how we *always* did it" reasons. Deal?

 

I think what could happen is we have the basic games with defined roles. Then we have advanced "normal" games - also with defined roles. Then we have advanced "non-normal" games where the mod has license to do whatever - short of lying to the game. Then, the final category would be something like "role madness" or "bastard" wheere the mod just goes nuts and the players are just there as puppets.

[Nynaeve]

You're making guidelines. And yes it would be too restrictive.

[Nynaeve]

You're forgetting that it's the mod that makes the game, not the players. While input is always appreciated, you don't set up a game based on people's whims. Part of it is creating a setup you enjoy too. If anyone would dictate to me how to run my game I'd pretty much hang my DM modding hat and mod games elsewhere.

[Tommyrod]

Interesting view. I consider it almost the exact opposite. I design games for players to enjoy, not for me to enjoy.

[Yates]

Yeah. Basically I'm thinking along the same lines as Tommy in post 18. As long as a player KNOWS up front the game isn't necessarily going to follow "normal" role definitions? That's cool. But it's very confusing for players in a basic game when they don't know something as simple as how a doctor protection works. I would even say it hurts the purity of the game. Plus, it makes it difficult for newer players. Like, you don't play games by "house rules" when you are trying to teach someone the BASICS. I think the term BASIC is the key term to keep in mind here.