[Advanced] Revenge of the Marlfox

[Leelou]

Then again, if BFG is town, they could be being kept left alive to mess with town. But then, I don't think we'd be the ones blocked last night. Both the watcher and tracker were targeted. Arsis killed and we were blocked. 

 

I'm about to say screw it at this point and vote BFG. I know people are trying to say don't look at mechanics, but the play around BFG and Hallia both don't make the most sense with their roles. 

[Yates]

This is why I gave Leelou control. I agree with everything she just said.

[hazelkrs1]

I would support and join a BFKey lynch btw

[Pralaya]

We are going to hit that roadblock later, if not today. And, I am pretty sure BFG is scum here. 

 

I don't see scum letting her live so long if they had a RB in their ranks. She can potentially screw the plans of scum if she is JK and alive. 

[Sili Quirrels]

I'm relaxing, rereading the last dozen pages. It's fun, and I think we should all just relax and consider for a moment who to wagon.

 

Let's be reasonable.

 

IRT key, what are the chances town doesn't have a protective role? Does anyone have bulletproof here?

[Yates]

I don't see scum letting her live so long if they had a RB in their ranks. She can potentially screw the plans of scum if she is JK and alive. 

Well, tbf, a lot of moves haven't made sense [*cough* Manbat *cough*] .  But yeah.  We got RBed last night.  If scum wanted to kill Arsis, what made them think BFKey wouldn't JK him?  If I'm scum, I RB BFKey [if I don't kill them] to make sure my NK goes through.

 

[v]##BFKey[/v]

 

I think Leelou is okay with this.

[Yates]

IRT key, what are the chances town doesn't have a protective role? Does anyone have bulletproof here?

If Pral is telling the truth, he's a protective role.  If Hally is telling the truth, they are the protective role.  If they are both telling the truth, we have plenty of protective roles.  Plus, if Manbat is telling the truth we could have added a Townie to the team which would have made him ~= to a protective role [adding to the Town pool while also reducing anti_Town is like 2 saves].

[Sili Quirrels]

I thought pral was a 1xroleblocker; am I wrong in saying he's very underpowered for protector role?

[BFG]

I tried to post some of this last night but was having difficulty accessing DM.

 

Rags

 

- my vote on Thane was consolidation. Like I said in sign-ups that week in particular was extrememy busy and I skimmed most of Wednesday and Thursday (GMT so from your timezone Tuesday evening through deadline) because I was working 14 hour days, so when I came on thread and said that I was brain dead, although not completely literally, I was being serious. There were a lot of people metaphorically shouting that Sili and Berf were obvious town and a lot of people were suspicious of Thane, some of whom had been town reading him earlier. I assumed that I missed something on thread while skimming, and I wasn't capable at the time to argue a town read from 2 days ago with the other people on thread who were up to date when I wasn't. Key was also more sceptical of Thane than I was (although was happy trusting my read there), so I switched votes, was it stupid - with hindsight obviously. And this isn't to pass the buck, it was my vote and out of everyone present I should have defended Thane more.

 

- my position on Pral. Yes I was suspicious of Pral and no it wasn't a firm position, along with most of my reads. Not having firm reads is a by-product of having skimmed the first 200 pages or so of the game (that whole 14 hour workday thing followed by moving country with work thing (which is why I initially signed up as a backup - but no way I say no to Key when she suggests hydra'ing )). However, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I ask Pral why he changed his mind, state that I think he's likely Town, but want him to answer my (previous)question (what made him change his mind). Pral doesn't so I ask him again, I haven't actually changed my stance through any of these posts.

 

Now I'm not so sure, I struggle to believe that he actually thinks that trying to lynch the ONLY role that could have blocked the N1 kill is a good thing. I'm also sceptical of most people that have us as red. I accept that my play has been less than stellar, but at some stage Night Actions mean something, but coming from somebody that is logical in their play as opposed to emotive it's harder to swallow. HOWEVER Hallia viewed him as Town, so Pral can ONLY be mafia if Hallia is.

 

- I really don't understand what point you're trying to make wrt my cliff notes. I talk about 7 people, 3 of them are dead (you missed Arsis) and 4 are still alive. How is that convenient?

[BFG]

Des

- I made 2 faulty assumptions. I underestimated how busy work was going to be, I thought I'd be working 10 hour days to finish the project, I ended up working 14 hour days. That meant I skimmed almost all of the first week of play. An unexpected consequence was how exhausted that left me last week (the second week of the game), a combination of the long hours worked the previous week, coupled with starting a new project in another geologically complex area of the world. Secondly I thought that the game would be Woodstock busy, i.e. /80 pages Day 1. By the time I was able to start paying attention the game was already at 200+pages, halfway through Day 2.

 

I also started at a time when Key and I should have been on a high as there was a decent chance we'd stopped the NK, instead people were finding Key suspicious because 'reasons' the one that most people mentioned as 'nudging' 'bad tone' etc was when she asked Tommy why he wasn't voting the person who had done the 'wolfiest' thing on thread so far. The fact that people who have flipped Town pushed that as something scummy has completely thrown me, and I'll admit I still feel somewhat disconnected from the game.

 

 

Also LOL

 

L O L

 

size=big L. O. L./size

 

 

Since Key claimed we have had nothing but rubbish thrown at us (with you one of the people at the forefront), because we chose not to protect Tommy N1. But guess what, our Town watcher who did the obvious thing, saw no-one try to visit Tommy, because guess what! The mafia chose to stay away from the OBVIOUS Doc protect and target elsewhere, to 'ensure' their kill went through.

 

So perhaps before you start lecturing other people on how pushing people for <optimum NA performance, you should stop pushing us as mafia, or even town that made the wrong/stupid choice when chances are >decent that we STOPPED THE FLAMING NIGHT KILL - i.e; the optimal performance for our role. Do I need to repeat that, or perhaps find a meme to go with it?

 

Further Key at no stage believed Tommy was a BP, even when I thought he was town I disbelieved that he'd be set off by a NK. Further what I read about the role suggested that if a BP is used then it is in a situation where it would be EXTREMELY STUPID to kill him, i.e. there was a role that KNEW he existed. There is nothing in our Role PM that suggested that we HAD to guard a Beloved Princess, or that we are connected to another character in any way, so IF the BP role existed there was someone ELSE who KNEW who Tommy was and therefore someone ELSE who HAD to protect him.

 

Finally If you want to accept that we're a RoleBlocker that blocked N1, then explain why there was no Night Kill Night 1, why would we block Tommy and kill him, instead of blocking the known watcher role who had a decent chance of watching Tommy again? I am incredulous that I have to point this out as it should be obvious, but if you want to lynch us then you NEED to answer those questions. I don't care how convenient it is to have us as mafia. We're town, move on.

 

Finally, finally - why do you always sound so grumpy when questioning us as to why we jailed Manbat.

[BFG]

Pral - I don't actually have the words for this. You genuinely think that the LEAST LIKELY role in this is the ONLY one that could have stopped the N1 Kill?

 

 

Manbat - Key still believes you and I want to. So I guess we won't be voting you today.

 

I'm not sure if I've left anything out that was addressed to me or not.

[BFG]

And I can use capital letters to

[BFG]

 

I don't see scum letting her live so long if they had a RB in their ranks. She can potentially screw the plans of scum if she is JK and alive.

Well, tbf, a lot of moves haven't made sense [*cough* Manbat *cough*] .  But yeah.  We got RBed last night.  If scum wanted to kill Arsis, what made them think BFKey wouldn't JK him?  If I'm scum, I RB BFKey [if I don't kill them] to make sure my NK goes through.

 

[v]##BFKey[/v]

 

I think Leelou is okay with this.

 

Well I guess we find out if you and Pral are town after all

[BFG]

 

IRT key, what are the chances town doesn't have a protective role? Does anyone have bulletproof here?

If Pral is telling the truth, he's a protective role.  If Hally is telling the truth, they are the protective role.  If they are both telling the truth, we have plenty of protective roles.  Plus, if Manbat is telling the truth we could have added a Townie to the team which would have made him ~= to a protective role [adding to the Town pool while also reducing anti_Town is like 2 saves].

 

Both of whom are claimed x-shot and a 1-shot, and neither of whom could have stopped the kill N1

[BFG]

There seems to be a lot of ??? going on.

 

 

 

Night 1 there was No Kill, from an external pov.

 

In order of least to most likely based on current claims.

 

 

Mafia forgot to submit - this never happens

 

Mafia chose not to submit on the extreme offchance it clears one of their players in the event that there isn't a doc or ANY role capable of protecting/blocking on the Towns side - yeah, no

 

Doctor guessed right - given that EVERYBODY, still living has been suspicious of us at one point or another this is hard to believe that they wouldn't have claimed, ESPECIALLY after Lates N2 track!

 

The ONLY claimed possible protective role active N1 guessed right.

 

At some stage you have to go with the obvious explanation. You just do.

 

 

 

Key and I are Town, despite my less than stellar play. Deal with it and move on.

 

 

Further, pushing Key and I at mylo without ANY explanation that explains the actions of Nights 1 and 2 is beyond ridiculous and depresses the hell out of me if any of you are actually town

[BFG]

I'm out to dinner, back on thread later if internet allows.

[Nynaeve]

Vote Count

 

Hallia(2): Sili, Dice

Rags(1): Monstr

Dice(1): Des

BFG(2): Pral, Lates

 

Not voting(4): The rest of you lot

 

 

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

 

 

Deadline: Tuesday at 9pm EST

[Pralaya]

I'm relaxing, rereading the last dozen pages. It's fun, and I think we should all just relax and consider for a moment who to wagon.

 

Let's be reasonable.

 

IRT key, what are the chances town doesn't have a protective role? Does anyone have bulletproof here?

 

What is your role?

[Leelou]

 

I'm relaxing, rereading the last dozen pages. It's fun, and I think we should all just relax and consider for a moment who to wagon.

 

Let's be reasonable.

 

IRT key, what are the chances town doesn't have a protective role? Does anyone have bulletproof here?

 

What is your role?

 

 

Fishing the fisher. I like it. 

[TheRagnarok]

So yeah, I'm gonna have to go to bed. I did do a quick look over BFKey's ISO and I'm still just kind of stuck on them. I feel I should have a stronger read on then than nullish at this point, but there's just not a lot to go on. BFG asks a lot of questions of other player and then doesn't seem to follow up on them, and I can't decided if that's scummy, or if she's just keeping her thoughts to herself. I feel like a townie should be more transparent. There was one post of hers in particular I didn't like, and that was her reaction to Yates' gambit where he pretended to view Pral guilty. She'd been scumreading Pral, but then said she wasn't sure she should believe Yates. Maybe she was just being cautious, but the way she worded it kind of made it sound like she didn't really want to vote him after all, like she was trying to back out of that.

 

But, meh. I don't know about them. I just think it's weird they haven't been nightkilled yet, but like manbat said, I'm trying to go more off gameplay and less off mechanics.

 

Speaking of monstr, after rereading the past several pages a few times today, I'm really starting to question my townread on him. He just seems to get very defensive anytime anyone goes after him in the slightest; in fact, he gets defensive just when someone questions him. I remember him doing this Day 1, and he did it when I and someone else (Yates? Can't remember who it was) questioned him about why the heck he thought Hallia had the same role as him in the game. And now again in these last few pages, when Yates went after him. I'm just starting to feel like he could be scum getting panicky about people questioning the gaps in what he's said about his psychiatrist role - the assumption that Hallia was one too, how he forgot who he targeted Night 2.

I dunno if you saw my ISO on BFKey, but that's almost exactly what I said.

[Sili Quirrels]

it was rhetorical. I only ask because every game I know of has at least one dedicated protector, and mass-bulletproof is patently absurd at this point.

 

Unless all three of you are lying

[Sili Quirrels]

 

So yeah, I'm gonna have to go to bed. I did do a quick look over BFKey's ISO and I'm still just kind of stuck on them. I feel I should have a stronger read on then than nullish at this point, but there's just not a lot to go on. BFG asks a lot of questions of other player and then doesn't seem to follow up on them, and I can't decided if that's scummy, or if she's just keeping her thoughts to herself. I feel like a townie should be more transparent. There was one post of hers in particular I didn't like, and that was her reaction to Yates' gambit where he pretended to view Pral guilty. She'd been scumreading Pral, but then said she wasn't sure she should believe Yates. Maybe she was just being cautious, but the way she worded it kind of made it sound like she didn't really want to vote him after all, like she was trying to back out of that.

 

But, meh. I don't know about them. I just think it's weird they haven't been nightkilled yet, but like manbat said, I'm trying to go more off gameplay and less off mechanics.

 

Speaking of monstr, after rereading the past several pages a few times today, I'm really starting to question my townread on him. He just seems to get very defensive anytime anyone goes after him in the slightest; in fact, he gets defensive just when someone questions him. I remember him doing this Day 1, and he did it when I and someone else (Yates? Can't remember who it was) questioned him about why the heck he thought Hallia had the same role as him in the game. And now again in these last few pages, when Yates went after him. I'm just starting to feel like he could be scum getting panicky about people questioning the gaps in what he's said about his psychiatrist role - the assumption that Hallia was one too, how he forgot who he targeted Night 2.

I dunno if you saw my ISO on BFKey, but that's almost exactly what I said.

 

I totally forgot to comment. sorry.

[dicetosser1]

ok am gonna try to explain my Des thoughts. Am quoting him a few times and dont know how to spoiler so this may be huge.  i will try to break it up if i can

[Sili Quirrels]

dice

 

[spoiler*]text[/spoiler*]

remove asterisks.

[dicetosser1]

Still looking over the Dice iso (not gonna make a big case on him tonight, just reviewing it), and here's the stuff I'm noticing so far:

 

His early thing against Dice was meh. But his tone in the way he went after it was good.

 

1 He calls out Arsis and Verb early on- since I believe there is a VERY good chance both are scum here, this makes Dice seem less likely as a teammate. Dice as scum will be happy to distance, but isn't busheavy (the main post I'm referring to early on is #732, his top two scum reads are Verb and Arsis). Additionally the way he follows up on his Arsis suspicions looks pretty decent.

 

He has some back and forth with Tommy, but this would be very easy for scum!Dice to emulate honestly. Tommy just rubs Dice the wrong way a lot, and Dice has caught scum!Tommy multiple times before only to have town eat everything Tommy was spoonfeeding them. So their history makes that interaction throughout the thread null.

 

Pushes the "let's kill Tommy the Beloved Princess so scum can't kill him late game" thing that I have already addressed irt Verb and others... not good.

 

1 His tone in pushing Sili1.0 when he was being lynched looks good. I think that kind of tone there would be harder for scum!Dice to fake. He continues following up on his reads fairly well, however I will mention that he drops the Verbal scum read after he brought him up early on. That's not necessarily that damning however- Verb's thread presence dropped big time after his early push on Thane, and Verb later on was mainly snarking it up against Tommy, which would have slid by town!Dice's attention fairly easily.

 

1Sorry this is turning into more of an actual iso, but this response to something I asked about Dice and how town flips on some of his reads looked good to me at the time, and still looks good to me now in fact.

 

Ugh. Had a series of posts where I'm starting to consider more and more that Dice might be town after all, then I see this post again which sets off all kinds of alarms. Blech. His reaction to Yates' "gambit" didn't look that sketchy at least.

 

---

 

Okay, iso reviewed. I will say it's PLAUSIBLE Dice could be town even with a Verbal scumflip, but eh... I'm def not even close to being able to clear him. Guess I could keep an eye on him and see how that goes.

 

I WILL say that seeing his claim and the way he did it, I actually kinda find myself wanting to believe it, despite a number of questionable things I still find about him.

 

1   So these highlightesd bits are Des saying I am most likely to be town. He points out 1 null thing and 2 "sketchy" things. Good outnumbers the bad yet in the Red he hedges and says its plausible that im town but hes gonna watch me.

 

Gonna go new school with this iso to make it look prettier, links will back up everything I'm saying instead of quoting it here. Will also let me stream of consciousness this thing instead of give one rambling analysis of a bunch of posts.

 

Just realized how much I've already quoted and still have a lot more, so gonna break this up into little spoilered chunks so it's not too unwieldy:

 

Spoiler 1: Mostly early stuff, opportunistic push on Thane, some weird tone posts here and there, and beginning of his Dice interaction

 

 

 

So I mentioned a while back how opportunistic I found Verb's early push on Thane, and yeah I still think that was scummy. I also thought Verb's early mini-iso of Tommy WAS awkward for him, as Tommy said himself. That early in the game, why quote every single one of his posts like that? Why not just say "most of his posts are fluff and not game related, how are you townreading him off of that?" Quoting every one made it seem like Verbal was trying to look busy early on imo.

 

Kinda a small point, but there could be some Freudian slippage in this early post by Verb where he's talking about being scum with Leelou- "Without her, I have no problems and often don't get identified until it's too late". As I mentioned, small point, but still.

 

Don't like this nudge from Verbal onto Hallia here, don't see town!Verb doing this kind of thing very often. He doesn't usually nudge other people's points and questions, he does his own scumhunting. I also don't like the way Verbal starts going after Tommy in posts like this. He's trying to maintain a serious scumread, but is acting way too jovial with it, makes it look forced. Also kinda jives with the way Verb both fos's and buddies Tommy later on ITT.

 

I really don't like this post from Verb. Looks way too self-conscious, and is also trying to deflect off attention by saying he's trying to act scummy to avoid a NK. Don't feel town!Verb makes this post. Also tone fail in "I would think my poking of Thane to begin the game was pretty townie. As a townie I'm not afraid to be labeled "scummy" ".

 

Again, moar of that forced jovial tone while soft pushing Tommy that reeks of scum to me. Pops up again in post #963 (this is also the first time I see him bluereading AJ hardcore, nothing that fishy here but later the way Verb acts all astounded-yet-pleased-with-himself after AJ's survivor claim looked forced as hell to me)

 

Over-wordy explanation of a tinfoil on Hallia

 

Just wanna note the defense of Berf in this post for later, could end up being an interesting post. He defends Berf from Alanna by saying since Berf is old school that might explain why his reads are bad. Berf actually uses this later if I'm not mistaken. Could be scum!Verb defending a teammate, could be him WKing lynchbait.

 

First mention of Dice's aggressiveness. Note: he says Dice is being more aggressive than he is used to seeing, even tho later on Verb says he is used to being able to sheep Dice's reads... those two thoughts don't seem to congregate very easily together. He follows up on that here, and again the tone and wording lead me to believe this could be some wolf/wolf distancing going on possibly. Here's some moar stuff on Dice from later on.

 

I thought the little focus on timezones from Verbal was pretty meh, and in fact Verbal spends plenty of time this game kind of having small little discussions about stuff that has no chance of helping town win, but I also found the defensive response to Tommy's post to also be kinda eye-catching.

 

This post looks awkward

 

 

Spoiler 2: Some more bad tone, some scummy soft pushes @ some peeps, more of Verbal buddying Tommy, and the crazy awkward series of posts where Verbal self-flagellates himself for being so "wrong" on AJ:

 

 

 

Bad tone in this response to AJ, Verbal's #1 townread at this spot. "Were you expecting rock solid scum reads on D1?" Also don't like the followup in that discussion, where Verbal starts buddying AJ a little more ("I don't necessarily feel that 'over the top' should equate to 'scummy', but I'm fine with your assessment")

 

Def don't like the nudge @ Sili [/url=http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/91500-advanced-revenge-of-the-marlfox/page-100#entry3368076]in this post from Verb[/url] either. Verbal was asking Tommy why his vote kept shifting back and forth to Verbal (which is weird to begin with, since Verbal was already soft-pushing at Tommy as scum before this for a while before he dropped it, so the question looks forced), and then says "Is it as simple as to see who keeps following you? If so, then the answer is Sili". Like, that looks REALLY bad for Verbal in retrospect.. Also, Tommy already noted the strangeness in this post from Verb where he touts Pray so highly (and strangely). Don't really think it's wolf/wolf (irt Verb and Pray I mean) since it looks more like buddying, but eh I could be wrong.

 

Here's the beginning of Verbal's awkward series of posts where he responds to AJ's third party claim, semi congratulating himself for bluereading him since AJ isn't scum apparently but acting all "durnit Verb!" about bluereading him even tho he's TP. Here's more of that awkwardness, and then egads even worse awkwardness in this one. Wow, I'm going to have to quote some choice excerpts from that post, that one is just absurdly scummy:

 

 

I feel that my one blue was messed up, even if I do use the excuse of "oh hey I knew he wasn't scum!" ......still makes me pretty wrong on that. I don't like being that wrong so early on - sets a bad tone for me.

I normally aim for that line between 'too scummy to NK' and 'too townish to lynch'. I say aim, but that's not accurate- it just happens that way naturally. I should probably tweak that based on who I'm playing with, but I haven't yet.

You say you flip flop on me a lot - lemme tell ya, I'm doing the same with you

 

 

The amount he chastises himself for being "wrong" on the AJ blueread just looks forced as all get out. He also continues buddying Tommy here and here. Also here.

 

Some bad juggling of reads after that- in this one he responds that he has Sili as null even after sot-pushing at him a little earlier, and in this one he says he's STARTING to see Cory as scum, even tho again he was soft pushing him as scum for a while earlier in the thread.

 

 

Spoiler 3: Reaction to Thane's flip, more buddying of Tommy, intredasting defense of Alanna, and soft pushing of Cory and more distancing type posts @ Dice:

 

 

 

So here's Verb's response to the Thane townflip. Note that he doesn't respond much to the flip itself, but is more immediately defensive to people calling him out for his role in lynching Thane. Def some scummy defensiveness here. 

 

 

Its true that I was on board for a Thane lynch.  I don't think being up front in that regard and especially being the one who prodded him first (first few pages of the game) would be a good spot for scum to be in.  If he was lynchbait, then I look especially bad for it.  Doesn't sound like a smart spot to put yourself in if you knew his alignment (if I was scum), right?

 

The ones that look super bad after lynchbait town flips are probably town.  The ones that nudged or controlled the flow towards that lynchbait.....those are the ones that require more scrutiny.  I really want Tom's slot resolved - I can't make up my mind on him.

 

 

This part here looks especially bad^^^. The way he tries deflecting and ditching responsibility here is gross, as is his wifomy insistence that scum wouldn't have initially pushed a lynch like that like he did. Bleurgh. Also yay! More awkward handling of his earlier "mistake" in bluereading AJ!

 

Verbal tries to link himself to me in this post, and also has an uber-defensive reaction to Rags' fos. He follows up on that defensiveness with some self-conscious looking stuff there, saying he didn't want to scum read Rags for fear of being called out on OMGUS. Yeah, cause town!Verb cares so much about being called out for OMGUS

 

Buddies Tommy again by saying he agrees with a lot of his reads here, then nudges @ Pray and Dice here. Again, Verb mentions Dice a whole bunch, but never seems that interested in voting him or hardpushing him this game.

 

This post also looks very significant - for the way he defends Alanna here. First of all, he says he's "joining the #alannawhiteknightclub", making it look like he's joining the crowd and not standing out with his defense, and as Tommy pointed out before, Verb says Alanna as scum "plays it very cautiously and will become very obvious that she's not taking sides on anything", even tho that's pretty much exactly what Alanna has been doing this game. Could def see Verb and Alanna as scumbros. Verb deflects from that point from Tommy immediately and tries saying "Alanna wouldn't slip like that as scum" and tries redirecting focus back to Cory.

 

He continues soft pushing @ Cory a bit (even tho Hallia had already mentioned Cory couldn't play anymore before this), mentions Dice some more but distances from the read at the same time, then this little doozie came out which looked off- Verb says the tinfoil is going to come out soon irt Leelou, and the reasoning looks pretty shoddy. Looks like he is just deciding it's easier to flip flop on Leelou since she's hydra with Yates. Also mock boldness in that post irt Tommy saying he's going to lynch Verb tomorrow.

 

 

Spoiler 4: This one's a doozy. Verb starts going off the deep end here and starts pushing that town should lynch Tommy even if Tommy is telling the truth about being a BP to "keep scum from doing so later". Even tho he's doing this, he keeps alternating and switching to buddying Tom and asking Tom to push Cory. ALSO- Verbal has a mega weird post where he flip flops his reasoning on suspecting Dice- saying that Dice is orange for him because he's not aggressive enough. Enjoy

 

 

 

So here's where Verb starts suggesting to lynch Tommy because his role would be a liability come endgame. As in- let's lynch the town BP, so that scum can't kill him later on and get two NK's in a row, even tho lynching him does the exact same thing BUT you also lose another possible scum lynch. I mean, that's basically a scumclaim there folks. A few others also seem to support this idea, will pull those quotes later but from memory Dice advocated it I believe, as did Berf.., and Lates was kinda softly agreeing with it (she thought he should die but not be lynched). Verb follows that post up with a snarky toned post @ Tommy because Tommy has led discussion all game.

 

Verb continues pushing the concept, saying that it's better to lose townies with negative utility "on town's terms" (whatever the hell that means) since it will hurt more later on, but first of all that's a strawman. Verb wasn't just arguing whether losing a negative utility role early on or late would be better, he was actually advocating LYNCHING said townie negative utility role. So he was trying to turn the argument into being about something entirely different. Second, no, the situation would be about the same either way, besides the fact that lynching said role would be worse since you'd ALSO be losing a lynch opportunity in addition to the loss of next day phase. Either way, scum need x amount of mislynches. The BP neg utility might change that math a little, but whether you get mislynches early on, or late, it doesn't really matter. So even Verb's strawman argument is dumb.

 

Also keep in mind- this whole discussion is after Sili's death (I couldn't find the specific reaction to that lynch tbh- I remember Verb was very inactive the whole day phase tho, and was suddenly much more active during the night phase) so this is already after TWO town mislynches, soooooo advocating ANOTHER mislynch - because it would "be on town's terms" is actually kind of batshit insanse honestly.

 

Verb gets snarky with Tommy again, and says the reason he hasn't done anything this game is because he needs flips, and not just lynches either. The town!Verb I know doesn't cop out like this and express a need for flips to be useful, he used to ramp up in activity more but it wasn't flips per se, it was just getting a feel for the players and game. Since the game has been so active, and Verb has been participating throughout, I would NOT expect him to "need more flips" at this point.

 

More of Verb pushing the argument that killing Tommy sooner rather than later is good for town. Incidentally, I wonder if Verb was trying to distance from his team's NK with this whole deal? After all, if BFKey is telling the truth and tried JKing him but was blocked, then scum obviously went to kill Tommy cause they thought he was BP.

 

Lulz- Verb ends up buddying up to Tommy AGAIN, telling him to quit flip flopping on him, even tho he was recently arguing to lynch Tommy even if he believed the claim. LULZ!!!! Also he says he'll fight tooth and nail to protect Lates... after recently saying he might tinfoil on them and even questioning Leelou a bit. LULZZZZZZ. After this he gives some reads to Leelou, what's really noteworthy here is that he starts switching his stance on Dice. Observe:

 

 

Dice: still orange for me. I've seen him figure out who he thinks scum are, and then hound them like crazy and keep at them. Here, I'm seeing him be aggressive and then quiet down........ aggressive and then quiet again. Just seems weird

 

 

 

So wait a second Verb - "hound them like crazy and keep at them" sounds pretty aggressive. Yet all game you were remarking on Dice's aggressiveness and how unusual you found that for him... all of a sudden tho it flips to him not being aggressive enough???

 

 

Other weird thing is Verb just said he'd fight tooth and nail for Lates, yet like a post later he's hedging a bit and can't quite move them to blue. Yeahhhhhhh..........

 

Moar soft defense of Alanna here. Moar pushing of the "need to kill Tommy now before he's more of a liability" thing. Moar mock outrage and defensiveness to an fos.

 

Even more talk about killing Tommy sooner rather than later. No really, each one of those links is a separate post (he also starts directing any potential Vig out there to shoot Tommy last night A TON). He really focuses on this a lot, and it is just incredibly wolfy. Manbat starts pointing out the absurdity of the idea, and Verb immediately back down.

 

Soft defense of Berf here. This one's good - Verb says he never lists suspects in red unless there is something to mechanically mark them red, false. He responds kinda snarkily to Leelou pointing out that Verb hedging on her at this point aint good, intredasting, and he also has a very wolfy response to Arsis' post on him, basically tries saying "the stuff you're saying about me applies more to Tommy!" which is a weak as hell scum argument.

 

This post is just gross. Verb asks Tommy if he'll push @ Cory the next day, Tommy points out how he keeps asking Tommy to do this all game and VERB should push the lynch if he feels so strongly about it. Verb in reply asks Tommy if he'll team up with him, or if Tommy will "drop the ball again and go for me". Holy schneikes is that post scummy.

 

 

Spoiler 5: This last section is prob the weakest of the sections, but still some juicy tidbits here. Has some laughable scummy progression on some reads, and also the cherry on top of my Verb/Dice connection. Pretty much zero reaction to Tommy flipping town but not BP OR AJ flipping malicious third party, which is hilarious considering his hilarious overreaction to both topics earlier in the game

 

 

 

Verb has an incredibly schticky thing where he answers yes to Leelou asking if he is town in golden font, acts all coy about it, and then says since gold was the color of "truth" in his Xmen game, OBVIOUSLY that means he isn't lying when he uses it now. Excuse me while I go barf while rolling my eyes while also completely seeing through this little ploy.

 

Says he will possibly go for a Pray lynch, even tho he's been soft defending Pray all game. Verb quotes Dice advocating the "kill Tommy sooner rather than later" plan, and Verb congratulates him on it even while pretending to be following Manbat's advice about lynching scum instead first. Blech.

 

Some of this other stuff is a bit more meh. Get defensive with Tommy some more, nudges that Corlia tried killing Manbat since they have more experience with him, this one's kinda funny - he says we should just JK Tommy unless we get closer to endgame and only blue reads are left, in which case we lynch him... EVEN THO THAT COMPLETELY GOES AGAINST EVERY FIBER OF HIS ARGUMENT FROM BEFORE (that killing Tommy before it gets closer to endgame makes much more sense).

 

Possible lolcatting/swinging smelly scum private parts in town's face moment between Dice and Verbal ITT. "I think Arsis is being miscleared. Even after Tommy admitted I'm town, he still tried to push Hallia, myself, and Leelou. There would be one teammate there (IMO), and two townies. I'm already suspicious of Hallia, so that leaves me with~~ Arsis/Hallia/Dice/??? LAWLZ. Cause, logic, right?

 

Srs do, that is just a laughibly scummy post there by Verb. The progression there is just.... holy crap is that bad. The way he tries to link from one to the other is just mind boggling. And notice how he's ALWAYS listing Dice as a scumread, but it's never his TOP scumread? HRMMMMMMMMM

 

Bleurgh @ this explanation of his read on Dice in response to Dice. Just bleurgh. Verb thinks cause he says it's an awful explanation in the same post he excuses himself from it's awkwardness. It doesn't. Convenient tho how Verb CONSTANTLY has Dice as a scum read all game, yet is CONSTANTLY hedging on it and acting uncomfortable with it, and CONSTANTLY has someone else he can argue voting for above Dice.

 

 

the only thing I didnt really like was him linking me and verb at the end here. kinda how to poke at one person but get some digs in on the person you are later going to push.

 

Anyone who reads all of that.... you have my utmost respect and admiration.

 

Anyways guess I'll be merciful and give a TLDR, especially since DL is about a day away.

 

Verb has displayed a good many classic scumtells throughout- bad tone (which is easy for me to say, but click on the examples I give to see for yourself), improper reaction to major events (always seems to want to wait and follow the crowd or else not even react at all), and lurking during the day but getting active at night again (which is especially true in games with early mislynches, wolves start salivating after each mislynch as they think their victory is getting closer).

 

He's also WAY off his town meta, both old and new. He'd have accomplished a LOT more this game than he has, but all he's done this game is make excuses for why he hasn't done enough. He snipes and nudges a WHOLE lot more than he would do as town, as town he is much more direct and doesn't try getting others to do his scumhunting for him (like how he tried getting Tommy to push @ Cory all game)

 

As far as specific game stuff he's done that was scummy: His early push on Thane was scummy and opportunistic. He soft pushed Thane for a while but kept from hard pushing it, and later defended his part in it by saying "scum wouldn't be in front on a lynch like that". Bleurgh is that scummy. His overreaction to being "wrong" on AJ as a blueread was entirely fake and forced. His handling and interaction with Tommy has been scummy all game. Forced jovial tone at times, blatant buddying in others, pushing that town should lynch or Vig Tommy even if he is telling the truth because... reasons (really shitty ones I'd say), and then attempts to link himself to Tommy after Tommy's death ("Even Tommy admitted I'm town" lol).

 

Then we get interactions with potential teammates- the one who stuck out the most to me was obviously Dice. Verb has soft pushed Dice in strange ways and with such hedging and vague wording throughout the game, but distances from the read as well and ALWAYS has a "higher" scum "read". Additionally Verb soft defended Alanna, Serf (altho he flip flopped a bit more there), and Pray (and also had some strange wording posts irt Pray as well). It's POSSIBLE Verb could be scum with Lates here still, but eh honestly I'm thinking the way he handles his read on that slot reads more as awkward wolf handling of a townie than awkward wolf handling of a teammate.

 

So yeah. Verbal is scum. I've finally hit my final form I think, and right about now Verb is kicking himself for not lynching me sooner

 

Lynch Verb, then Dice imo, then Alanna I'd say, and then figure out which one is scummier between Pray and Serf (prob Serf imo). And town wins the game.

 

 

 

and heres where he starts pushing to get me voted. Despite what he had said in the Blue part i quoted. It all seems that its based off his opinion on Verbs actions, not mine. And considering Verb flipped town what does that do to the read?

 

Hey, I'm around. Been hanging back and observing since I wanted to reevaluate my feelings on pretty much everything about this game, and I'm glad I did since claims have been flying through the thread since then.

 

Back at work tonight so will go into much more detail, but lemme at least comment on all the claims we've had so far, in order of which I find most believable to least believable

 

Manbat-Psychiatrist: his role is essentially confirmed to be in the game with AJ's flip, and he is absurdly townie here and is always looking at things with a solve mindset

 

Hallia-JOAT: The way in which she claims totally jives with how'd she do so as a town JOAT. I have felt her backbone has been showing all game, and in a townie way, not in a way of someone trying to fake backbone to fake a towntell of hers. And both actions make sense imo- Hallia doesn't go for the sneaky clever move with her NA a lot of times, she lets her instinct drive it. I'll have to check to make sure she suspected Pray like she said, but I'm pretty sure I remember her doing so earlier. Makes sense for her to cop him to make sure. And "clearing" AJ after tracking him N1 makes sense as well.

 

Pray-X shot RBer: I buy this too. Before all these claims, I was actually really worried about him. He basically trolls me any game we play together and tells me how wrong I am constantly (even tho I often give out fake reads but w/e), and has told me in the past that as scum he just pockets me and tells me how good my reads are while misleading me and the rest of town. Was worried he was executing the exact scumtell he gave me. However, the claims came out, and well I think they clear him anyways (as Manbat said, even if Hallia is scum she prob wasn't trying to protect a teammate). The one caveat to those would be GF, but then his role claim after that makes basically no sense for a GF since being miscleared would be everything a GF would want- even if they were a GF with limited shot abilities of some kind, I don't think they would reveal something like that right after being cop cleared. And the manner of his claim also tells me he's likely telling the truth, not much reason to lie there (don't really see the protown angle to revealing that role info, but meh). So long story short I believe his claim

 

BFKey-JK: I'm flip flopping on this read. It's a bit associative, but I think some of the other claim stuff that has come out corroborates their claim, and like with Hallia and Pray, I don't think scum!Lates came out and backed up a scummate's claim like that. I also think now it is likely they stuffed a NK, whereas before I thought a town RBer might have stuffed the NK or a Doc, but with all these other claims I kinda doubt a Doc exists in this game tbh, but at the time BFKey wouldn't have guessed that if they were scum.

 

Tbh, BFKey would prob go above Pray here, but yeah leaving them in this order cause #LazyDespot. As far as the claims I don't trust/believe:

 

---

 

Arsis-Watcher: I actually initially believed the claim, cause claiming in the night and the way he did as scum seems like it wouldn't make much sense to me, but now I'm starting to flip flop on that. Arsis DOES seem like the player who always wants to do the unexpected, and I guess I could see him as scum doing that move just for the wifom of "doesn't make sense as scum". I also think he's used wifom arguments recently irt his Watcher claim, like saying he would have already faked a guilty on someone by now or something. I also think he didn't use his role in a protown manner- revealing his results instantly even tho Tracker/Watcher claims late in the day are some of the best ways to catch someone in a lie. Furthermore something about the way he seems to feel about his role kind of makes me think of Yates/Leelou. And that leads me to...

 

Lates-Tracker: Pretty sure they're lying here. Or at the very least, are lying about being town. I think they might be scum Tracker, and are being honest in that they feel their role is useless or something. Gaming the mod, but I could see Krak giving scum a Tracker and Watcher if town is PR heavy, and a leet RBer of some kind to help nullify those PR's as they find them with the Tracker/Watcher combo. Anyways, Yates' play lately is all over the place and makes no sense. He claims to have lied about getting the cop guilty on Pray to test Pray and Hallia, but he would have had no idea Hallia copped Pray. That makes no sense, like, at all. He also seems to be pursuing empty and fruitless arguments a lot- arguing with town PR claims about why they didn't do this, or do that, even while claiming to believe their role sometimes. Looks like him just trying to look busy or try to nudge them and make them look worse without actually hard pushing against them. He did this with Manbat, is doing this with Hallia, yeah just looks scummy. Also he was pursuing the Tommy false trail I was laying down yesterday, only I thought that might be an actual gambit on his part. Since it seems that was never the case, I now think he looks pretty scummy for pushing that angle for so long.

 

As far as Leelou goes, it seems she is soft pushing against the PR claims as well without coming in strong on which ones she believes, which I don't like, but the biggest thing that pinged from her lately for me was asking Hallia about her other shots. That seemed a lot more scum-oriented of a questioning line than town-oriented. Scum would want to know her other shots a lot more, town wanting to catch her in a lie could have easily just waited for more results to see how they jived with other investigative results, and wouldn't need to push her for the rest of her role now.

 

I still cant put my finger on what exactly it is. It just doesnt seem...definite enuff? he bleieves arsis claim because of how he did it yet then flip flops and says he doesnt believe it cause of how he did it.  What the??

 

BFG/Key  hes flipflopping on yet says they'd come above Pray? what??

 

I dont know if that really gets my thinking across. probably doesnt shrug