Finished the Series - Onto the Questions (SPOILERS)

[Bushwhacker2k]

I just finished the series yesterday, after having started reading it back around 2005 or so. Now I want to discuss it a little bit, ask some questions about things that seem unresolved or that I didn't understand.

 

1. Who wrote the multitude of prophecies (Karaethon Cycle, Jendai Prophecy, etc.) and why are they so universally believed?
2. Who was Balthamel? He is seriously the least explored of the Forsaken, I know just about nothing about him.
3. Why did Sammael die so anticlimactically? I was certain he'd show up later because his death was so impersonal and so unexplored, but then he didn't...
4. Why did Siuan and Leane never get their abilities fully restored, even though it's strongly implied that Flinn's healing could fully restore stilling (since when he healed stilled Aes Sedai they never mentioned being weaker, like Siuan and Leane did from Nynaeve's healing - though Logain never seemed to complain about not being at full strength either, thus implying a man can heal a woman's stilling and a woman can heal a man's gentling)
5. Why was Sevanna treated as a Wise Woman, despite the fact that you have to go to Rhuidean to be considered one? (this was partially addressed but I didn't really buy it because it didn't make sense)
6. Who was Nakomi, the woman Aviendha met in the waste?
7. What caused Gawyn to so strongly believe Rand killed his mother? (I think the book kind of settled on it being jealousy, but that didn't make much sense to me)
8. What ever happened to angreals not "having power" that Moiraine got so anal about in the first book? (Guessing it's that trope where the author changes his mind about things in the continuum after publishing the first major work)
9. What was the Rod of Tamyrlin?
10. Why did Rand's wives (I dunno if they were formally married but whatever) all spontaneously and simultaneously agree to cover up that Rand was still alive? Did they agree to it beforehand? It doesn't actually make much sense (even though I get that it's the riding into the sunset ending trope).
11. Why was it never addressed that Luc is Rand's uncle (unless I made a mistake somewhere while reading) and Isam is Lan's uncle?

Getting more into my personal feelings here- I want to stress that the next questions are based on my interpretations and not something anyone who disagrees ought to worry about.

 

1. Why did Elaida turn into a moustache-twirling villain after becoming Amyrlin? I couldn't take the change seriously at all. I totally don't buy the whole 'drunk with power' schtick, she got way over the top in a way I couldn't take seriously.
2. Why did Egwene get turned into such a Mary Sue? In the first half of the books she was pretty likeable but once she was close to becoming Aes Sedai it's like everyone and everything had to marvel in how perfect she was, despite how young she was, and how she could do no wrong and everyone else should bow before her greatness.
3. I guess this doesn't really qualify as a question, but I felt similarly about Elayne (to a much lesser extent). Arymilla was turned into her Elaida, where her enemy was made into someone who everyone so universally disliked and considered an absolute fool that it kind of felt insulting that she was supposed to the antithesis to that, where she was just so obviously the best choice in every situation and everyone should bow before her and she inherently deserves the world's love and adoration more than anyone else... moving on.
4. Once again more a statement than a question- I didn't buy that the nearly perfect reality Rand eventually made was something untouched by the Dark One. (I feel like that's just something story-tellers do to justify their perception of the world) Rand's entire hope of that reality crumbled when he perceived Elayne as stupid, which is really silly when you break it down- like people can't be intelligent without absolute evil existing in the world? Not to mention he saw his body, thus implying death still exists, and he saw a spider (which, unless I'm quite mistaken, only eat other bugs, thus meaning living things are still killed and consumed) thusly implying the world was still very much touched by the Dark One.

 

This is probably the most significant question about the nature of the series and what I strongly view to be the single greatest flaw of the Wheel of Time series:

 

1. What was Robert Jordan's view on Feminism? The way females act in WoT is so stark that it inherently colors every single element of the series. I've read most of the books several times and I've seen what seems to be both sides of the coin, where people act like females are inherently correct because they're females and where they look foolish for acting the way most of them seem to. I simply can't figure it out. What is his perspective? Why did he write them this way? What was he trying to say?

 

For the time being these are my questions on the series. I'll very likely come up with more but I just had to discuss one of my favorite series of all time.

[Mr Ares]

I just finished the series yesterday, after having started reading it back around 2005 or so. Now I want to discuss it a little bit, ask some questions about things that seem unresolved or that I didn't understand.

 

Who wrote the multitude of prophecies (Karaethon Cycle, Jendai Prophecy, etc.) and why are they so universally believed?

They were created by Channelers who had Foretellings. They were believed for that reason - Foretellings always come to pass.

Why did Siuan and Leane never get their abilities fully restored, even though it's strongly implied that Flinn's healing could fully restore stilling (since when he healed stilled Aes Sedai they never mentioned being weaker, like Siuan and Leane did from Nynaeve's healing - though Logain never seemed to complain about not being at full strength either, thus implying a man can heal a woman's stilling and a woman can heal a man's gentling)

That's it exactly - to be fully Healed, you need to be Healed cross-gender. It's just one of many examples of men and women being better working together. As for why they didn't get it Healed later, they had already been Healed - there's no longer a problem to fix.It's unknown if they could be Healed back to their original strength if they were severed again, but I doubt it's something they wish to experiment with given that severing is described as exceedingly painful.

 

Why did Rand's wives (I dunno if they were formally married but whatever) all spontaneously and simultaneously agree to cover up that Rand was still alive? Did they agree to it beforehand? It doesn't actually make much sense (even though I get that it's the riding into the sunset ending trope).

Rand wanted to be left alone. He has done his duty, he has put down the mountain. If people think he is dead, then they are unlikely to come after him, expecting his help or wanting him to take up further duties.

 

Why was it never addressed that Luc is Rand's uncle (unless I made a mistake somewhere while reading) and Isam is Lan's uncle?

Isam is Lan's cousin, but it's not really addressed because it's not really important - Luc is aware of his relationship to Rand and references it, but it doesn't really matter to him, and it wouldn't really matter to Rand. The family that matters to Rand is Tam, Elayne, Aviendha and Min.

 

Getting more into my personal feelings here- I want to stress that the next questions are based on my interpretations and not something anyone who disagrees ought to worry about.

Why did Elaida turn into a moustache-twirling villain after becoming Amyrlin? I couldn't take the change seriously at all. I totally don't buy the whole 'drunk with power' schtick, she got way over the top in a way I couldn't take seriously.

Fain's destabilising influence was the crucial difference.

Once again more a statement than a question- I didn't buy that the nearly perfect reality Rand eventually made was something untouched by the Dark One. (I feel like that's just something story-tellers do to justify their perception of the world) Rand's entire hope of that reality crumbled when he perceived Elayne as stupid, which is really silly when you break it down- like people can't be intelligent without absolute evil existing in the world? Not to mention he saw his body, thus implying death still exists, and he saw a spider (which, unless I'm quite mistaken, only eat other bugs, thus meaning living things are still killed and consumed) thusly implying the world was still very much touched by the Dark One.

My interpretation is that as the world is being created by Rand, it is influenced by him. He's trying to show a world without evil, but on some level can't accept that such a thing is possible, so the world he ends up with is twisted and wrong. But the existence of death doesn't imply the existence of Shai'tan, not even the eating of living things.

This is probably the most significant question about the nature of the series and what I strongly view to be the single greatest flaw of the Wheel of Time series:

What was Robert Jordan's view on Feminism? The way females act in WoT is so stark that it inherently colors every single element of the series. I've read most of the books several times and I've seen what seems to be both sides of the coin, where people act like females are inherently correct because they're females and where they look foolish for acting the way most of them seem to. I simply can't figure it out. What is his perspective? Why did he write them this way? What was he trying to say?

For the time being these are my questions on the series. I'll very likely come up with more but I just had to discuss one of my favorite series of all time.

I think, simply put, his view was that men and women were different but equal. A world in which women dominate is going to result in many of the exact same problems as a world in which men dominate (although the inherent biases and the way in which that domination manifests won't always be the same).

[Bushwhacker2k]

 

I just finished the series yesterday, after having started reading it back around 2005 or so. Now I want to discuss it a little bit, ask some questions about things that seem unresolved or that I didn't understand.

 

Who wrote the multitude of prophecies (Karaethon Cycle, Jendai Prophecy, etc.) and why are they so universally believed?

They were created by Channelers who had Foretellings. They were believed for that reason - Foretellings always come to pass.

 

 

Is it explicitly stated in the books? I don't recall ever seeing it, but it is the most plausible reason.

 

 

Why did Siuan and Leane never get their abilities fully restored, even though it's strongly implied that Flinn's healing could fully restore stilling (since when he healed stilled Aes Sedai they never mentioned being weaker, like Siuan and Leane did from Nynaeve's healing - though Logain never seemed to complain about not being at full strength either, thus implying a man can heal a woman's stilling and a woman can heal a man's gentling)

That's it exactly - to be fully Healed, you need to be Healed cross-gender. It's just one of many examples of men and women being better working together. As for why they didn't get it Healed later, they had already been Healed - there's no longer a problem to fix.It's unknown if they could be Healed back to their original strength if they were severed again, but I doubt it's something they wish to experiment with given that severing is described as exceedingly painful.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it's never actually addressed, I don't think Siuan and Leane ever even heard or mentioned Flinn's healing. I bet if he tried to heal them again he could just finish what Nynaeve started.

 

 

Why did Rand's wives (I dunno if they were formally married but whatever) all spontaneously and simultaneously agree to cover up that Rand was still alive? Did they agree to it beforehand? It doesn't actually make much sense (even though I get that it's the riding into the sunset ending trope).

Rand wanted to be left alone. He has done his duty, he has put down the mountain. If people think he is dead, then they are unlikely to come after him, expecting his help or wanting him to take up further duties.

 

 

I wasn't asking the ultimate motivation, I got that, I wanted to know how they suddenly knew and decided upon it.

 

The most plausible explanation would be that Rand communicated via the bond to tell them his entire plan, but that doesn't make sense as he was unconscious while the plan would have been formulated. Ultimately I think this one has no good explanation.

 

 

Why was it never addressed that Luc is Rand's uncle (unless I made a mistake somewhere while reading) and Isam is Lan's uncle?

Isam is Lan's cousin, but it's not really addressed because it's not really important - Luc is aware of his relationship to Rand and references it, but it doesn't really matter to him, and it wouldn't really matter to Rand. The family that matters to Rand is Tam, Elayne, Aviendha and Min.

 

 

Thanks, I read the books, I know he didn't personally know Luc, but his relationship to Galad, however 'unimportant' was brought up very explicitly in the last book.

 

 

Getting more into my personal feelings here- I want to stress that the next questions are based on my interpretations and not something anyone who disagrees ought to worry about.

Why did Elaida turn into a moustache-twirling villain after becoming Amyrlin? I couldn't take the change seriously at all. I totally don't buy the whole 'drunk with power' schtick, she got way over the top in a way I couldn't take seriously.

Fain's destabilising influence was the crucial difference.

 

 

Iiiinteresting! I never realized this... so Fain manipulated the White Tower somehow? When was this stated?

 

 

Once again more a statement than a question- I didn't buy that the nearly perfect reality Rand eventually made was something untouched by the Dark One. (I feel like that's just something story-tellers do to justify their perception of the world) Rand's entire hope of that reality crumbled when he perceived Elayne as stupid, which is really silly when you break it down- like people can't be intelligent without absolute evil existing in the world? Not to mention he saw his body, thus implying death still exists, and he saw a spider (which, unless I'm quite mistaken, only eat other bugs, thus meaning living things are still killed and consumed) thusly implying the world was still very much touched by the Dark One.

My interpretation is that as the world is being created by Rand, it is influenced by him. He's trying to show a world without evil, but on some level can't accept that such a thing is possible, so the world he ends up with is twisted and wrong. But the existence of death doesn't imply the existence of Shai'tan, not even the eating of living things.

 

 

That's a good answer, that makes a lot of sense to me...

 

But I'm pretty sure death does imply Shai'tan, as they said in the last book, he is the space between blinks, he is the time between lives.

 

 

This is probably the most significant question about the nature of the series and what I strongly view to be the single greatest flaw of the Wheel of Time series:

What was Robert Jordan's view on Feminism? The way females act in WoT is so stark that it inherently colors every single element of the series. I've read most of the books several times and I've seen what seems to be both sides of the coin, where people act like females are inherently correct because they're females and where they look foolish for acting the way most of them seem to. I simply can't figure it out. What is his perspective? Why did he write them this way? What was he trying to say?

For the time being these are my questions on the series. I'll very likely come up with more but I just had to discuss one of my favorite series of all time.

I think, simply put, his view was that men and women were different but equal. A world in which women dominate is going to result in many of the exact same problems as a world in which men dominate (although the inherent biases and the way in which that domination manifests won't always be the same).

 

 

Was it just supposed to be some kind of juxtaposition, showing that women being considered inherently better is no better than the alternative? Honestly it came off so strongly I got the impression he actually did believe women are just inherently better. There really needed to be a little more balance throughout the series about this, it got really pointlessly obnoxious at times.

[Sabio]

Fain being the corrupted evil he was had a influence on those he encountered.  The longer he was around the person the more they would be corrupted.  It his presence would start to make a person mistrustful etc... 

 

I doubt he could communicate his plan to fake his death through the bond.  Don't forget he met with all 3 women before they all left to go to their areas of battle, he clearly had some idea then the body swap might be possible.  He could of told them his hope of surviving etc.  So they would of known his wishes.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

I just finished the series yesterday, after having started reading it back around 2005 or so. Now I want to discuss it a little bit, ask some questions about things that seem unresolved or that I didn't understand.

 

Who wrote the multitude of prophecies (Karaethon Cycle, Jendai Prophecy, etc.) and why are they so universally believed?

They were created by Channelers who had Foretellings. They were believed for that reason - Foretellings always come to pass.

 

 

Is it explicitly stated in the books? I don't recall ever seeing it, but it is the most plausible reason.

 

RJ confirmed it.

 

 

Why did Siuan and Leane never get their abilities fully restored, even though it's strongly implied that Flinn's healing could fully restore stilling (since when he healed stilled Aes Sedai they never mentioned being weaker, like Siuan and Leane did from Nynaeve's healing - though Logain never seemed to complain about not being at full strength either, thus implying a man can heal a woman's stilling and a woman can heal a man's gentling)

That's it exactly - to be fully Healed, you need to be Healed cross-gender. It's just one of many examples of men and women being better working together. As for why they didn't get it Healed later, they had already been Healed - there's no longer a problem to fix.It's unknown if they could be Healed back to their original strength if they were severed again, but I doubt it's something they wish to experiment with given that severing is described as exceedingly painful.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it's never actually addressed, I don't think Siuan and Leane ever even heard or mentioned Flinn's healing. I bet if he tried to heal them again he could just finish what Nynaeve started.

 

Except that you can't Heal things which have already been Healed.

 

 

 

Why was it never addressed that Luc is Rand's uncle (unless I made a mistake somewhere while reading) and Isam is Lan's uncle?

Isam is Lan's cousin, but it's not really addressed because it's not really important - Luc is aware of his relationship to Rand and references it, but it doesn't really matter to him, and it wouldn't really matter to Rand. The family that matters to Rand is Tam, Elayne, Aviendha and Min.

 

 

Thanks, I read the books, I know he didn't personally know Luc, but his relationship to Galad, however 'unimportant' was brought up very explicitly in the last book.

 

And? If it's not important, it doesn't need to be there.

 

 

Getting more into my personal feelings here- I want to stress that the next questions are based on my interpretations and not something anyone who disagrees ought to worry about.

Why did Elaida turn into a moustache-twirling villain after becoming Amyrlin? I couldn't take the change seriously at all. I totally don't buy the whole 'drunk with power' schtick, she got way over the top in a way I couldn't take seriously.

Fain's destabilising influence was the crucial difference.

 

 

Iiiinteresting! I never realized this... so Fain manipulated the White Tower somehow? When was this stated?

 

FoH Prologue.

 

 

Once again more a statement than a question- I didn't buy that the nearly perfect reality Rand eventually made was something untouched by the Dark One. (I feel like that's just something story-tellers do to justify their perception of the world) Rand's entire hope of that reality crumbled when he perceived Elayne as stupid, which is really silly when you break it down- like people can't be intelligent without absolute evil existing in the world? Not to mention he saw his body, thus implying death still exists, and he saw a spider (which, unless I'm quite mistaken, only eat other bugs, thus meaning living things are still killed and consumed) thusly implying the world was still very much touched by the Dark One.

My interpretation is that as the world is being created by Rand, it is influenced by him. He's trying to show a world without evil, but on some level can't accept that such a thing is possible, so the world he ends up with is twisted and wrong. But the existence of death doesn't imply the existence of Shai'tan, not even the eating of living things.

 

 

That's a good answer, that makes a lot of sense to me...

 

But I'm pretty sure death does imply Shai'tan, as they said in the last book, he is the space between blinks, he is the time between lives.

 

Many things are stated which are not true. We know there is an afterlife, we know it is inaccessible to Shai'tan (that's why he cannot get at the souls of people killed with balefire), so we can therefore say that it is not true that He is the time between lives. We have no solid reason to believe that He is the cause of death.

 

 

This is probably the most significant question about the nature of the series and what I strongly view to be the single greatest flaw of the Wheel of Time series:

What was Robert Jordan's view on Feminism? The way females act in WoT is so stark that it inherently colors every single element of the series. I've read most of the books several times and I've seen what seems to be both sides of the coin, where people act like females are inherently correct because they're females and where they look foolish for acting the way most of them seem to. I simply can't figure it out. What is his perspective? Why did he write them this way? What was he trying to say?

For the time being these are my questions on the series. I'll very likely come up with more but I just had to discuss one of my favorite series of all time.

I think, simply put, his view was that men and women were different but equal. A world in which women dominate is going to result in many of the exact same problems as a world in which men dominate (although the inherent biases and the way in which that domination manifests won't always be the same).

 

 

Was it just supposed to be some kind of juxtaposition, showing that women being considered inherently better is no better than the alternative? Honestly it came off so strongly I got the impression he actually did believe women are just inherently better. There really needed to be a little more balance throughout the series about this, it got really pointlessly obnoxious at times.

 

I hardly got the impression women were better - are the female characters any less inclined to personality defects or flawed judgement than the men? They inhabit a world where female bias is entrenched, just as male bias so often is in our own, but that bias is not celebrated by the author, merely presented.

[Magicana]

1. The prophecies come from Aes Sedai foretellings.

 

2. Balthamel was a sociologist/anthropologist in the Age of Legends, with a focus on primitive cultures. By his own account, he was an inordinate womaniser, gambler and drunkard as well.

 

3. Welcome to the Forsaken. Don't forget that anticlimatic ends are part of being human.

 

4. Siuan and Leane didn't get their abilities healed to full because they were healed by a woman. RJ confirmed that it requires someone of the opposite gender to heal stilling properly. Hence why Logain is at full power, along with the Aes Sedai that Rand severed at Dumai Wells.

 

5. Declaring yourself a Wise One is enough to be one. No Aiel in their right mind would normally claim it if they weren't, so Sevanna got away with it.

 

6. No confirmed theories on who Nakomi is.

 

7. Lots of people think Rand murdered Morgase, he isn't alone in that.

 

8. Angreal's do have 'power', Moiraine was talking about normal objects and not her Angreal.

 

9. Rod of Tamyrlin? Do you mean the Rods of Dominion and the Ring of Tamyrlin? The Ring was an artefact from the first person to discover channelling, which started the Age of Legends. The Rods of Dominion was an office that was held by men/women.

 

10. Not sure on that either. I think they figured he deserved some time off after saving the world :P.

 

11. Luc/Isam is confusing. They're the same person, but not. I guess nobody makes the connection in the series (I never did). I would argue that once the Dark One got ahold of him, he wasn't really human anymore.

 

12. Elaida turned into a villain from a combination of three things. First: She's a bitch. Second: Padan Fain manipulated her nature. Third: Alviarin, on behalf of the Black Ajah, twisted her decision making to destroy the tower.

 

13. I felt it was somewhat of a natural progression. Her time with the Aiel was no doubt very influential in how she viewed and acted towards people. The Wise Ones don't put much stock in fools, so she had to grow very quickly.

 

14. Some people are just fools. It's also probably a hangover from Rahvin being in power. He associated with Arymilla, Nasin, etc, and no doubt compelled them. Much in the same way that Sammael spread the Aiel through Illian and Ghealdan before Rand attacked.

 

14. Death isn't inherently evil. The point was for Rand to discover that the Dark One wasn't in fact an 'Enemy', but a natural part of life. Albeit one that shouldn't control everything.

 

15. He intended to display a post-feminist world in which there was inherent balance between the sexes. I don't think he really succeeded. But that said, there are a lot of women who think exactly the way that most women in the series do. Also keep in mind there was an inherent bias against men because of the taint on Saidin and it was men who Broke the world.

 

I love the series too :).

[Sabio]

You really need the BWB if you want to find out anything about Balthamel, he died so fast and then came back as a woman there really wasn't much of a need to go indepth with his past besides he was a huge player with the women and then when he came back as a woman he wanted to basically sleep with anything, man or woman.

[Thrasymachus]

Regarding angreals and sa'angreals, they don't have Power, in themselves.  Rather, they add to or multiply the amount of Power the channeler can safely access and control.  The only object that might be said to have Power are wells, which are ter'angreal.

 

Regarding Rand's three bond-mates keeping Rand's survival a secret, remember that the ink on the Dragon's Peace is still quite fresh, and one of the conditions for nations signing on to it is that Rand gives his life to save the world from the Dark One.  Discovering that Rand survived would give an excuse for some of those nations, Murandy, and perhaps the Seanchan, to declare the compact void as its conditions weren't met.  Elayne's not gonna want to give Murandy that excuse given they're right on the border and Andor leads the largest alliance of nations, Min's not gonna want to give the Seanchan an excuse to continue their war of expansion, and Aviendha probably realizes that the survival of the Car'a'carn would throw the surviving Aiel leadership hierarchy into chaos similar to what happened when Rand first revealed himself to the Aiel in the Waste.  It's also worth noting that the 3 spent a bit of time together as Rand is "dying," and so would likely have come to an agreement to keep the weirdness they felt coming through the Bond a secret.

 

As for Luc/Isam, his relationship with Rand/Lan is really not all that relevant, it's there to show how much the events of the Last Battle all swirl around Rand, even before he was born, and to give a sort of unnecessary explanation for why Rand's birth father is dead.  

 

Egwene is so Mary Sue-ish because narratively, she's sort of the female counterpart to Rand.  Much of her development doesn't really come out-of-the-blue, the only thing really jarring is how quickly she picks things up, but then, so does everybody else in the story.  Rand becomes effectively a blademaster in less than a year of training, without ever holding a sword before that (in this life).  Nynaeve can copy a weave after only seeing it once, is one of the stronger channelers in history, and has a habit of doing things that were thought to be impossible, even in the Age of Legends, like healing Stilling, or healing the Taint's insanity, Elayne picks up weather weaving after only a couple of weeks of training with the Sea Folk and becomes a skilled high-wire acrobat with literally no prior training, Min becomes a competent academic scholar capable of reading the Old Tongue without any formal training, Perrin picks up leadership and administration skills mostly effortlessly and in spite of not trying to learn them.  Only Mat's leap in skills doesn't seem Mary Sue-ish, ironically, because he gets those skills through Finn magic.

[Bushwhacker2k]

And? If it's not important, it doesn't need to be there.

 

That was my point when I mentioned Galad. His familial relationship to Rand ultimately meant nothing, but it was actually a surprisingly close relationship that WAS explicitly mentioned- whereas Isam/Luc's relationships to two of the most significant characters aren't ever explicitly stated (unless I'm simply forgetting it).

  

Many things are stated which are not true. We know there is an afterlife, we know it is inaccessible to Shai'tan (that's why he cannot get at the souls of people killed with balefire), so we can therefore say that it is not true that He is the time between lives. We have no solid reason to believe that He is the cause of death.

How do you know there's an afterlife?

 

-

 

8. Angreal's do have 'power', Moiraine was talking about normal objects and not her Angreal.

I'm going to have to specifically look for this when I eventually reread the first book but I could swear that Egwene was referring to Moiraine's angreal when she mentioned items having power and Moiraine mentioned that "items don't have power" or something along those lines.

 

9. Rod of Tamyrlin? Do you mean the Rods of Dominion and the Ring of Tamyrlin? The Ring was an artefact from the first person to discover channelling, which started the Age of Legends. The Rods of Dominion was an office that was held by men/women.

Pardon my mistake- where is it stated what the Ring is?

 

I assume the Rods of Dominion still refer to objects, as the Amyrlin Seat is actually a physical object in addition to being the name of a position.

 

14. Death isn't inherently evil. The point was for Rand to discover that the Dark One wasn't in fact an 'Enemy', but a natural part of life. Albeit one that shouldn't control everything.

 

Very debateable.

 

15. He intended to display a post-feminist world in which there was inherent balance between the sexes. I don't think he really succeeded. But that said, there are a lot of women who think exactly the way that most women in the series do. Also keep in mind there was an inherent bias against men because of the taint on Saidin and it was men who Broke the world.

 

I think you're right. I just really felt that it was too aggressive, as the societies in this seem to maintain a (as far as I could tell) realististic structure... but everyone just acts like women are better despite the fact that it doesn't play into the nature of the society... I'm sure everyone has their opinion on this, but I strongly feel it's the biggest flaw of the series in how it doesn't contribute anything to the story and it just adds this unpleasant air to everything.

 

I love the series too :).

:D

 

-

 

You really need the BWB if you want to find out anything about Balthamel, he died so fast and then came back as a woman there really wasn't much of a need to go indepth with his past besides he was a huge player with the women and then when he came back as a woman he wanted to basically sleep with anything, man or woman.

What's the BWB?

 

I think you're mixing Balthamel up with Aran'gar here.

 

... Wait. Are Aginor/Balthamel Osan'gar and Aran'gar!? HOLY CRAP I NEVER REALIZED THAT!

 

So THAT'S why it was mentioned that one of them created Trollocs! Because one of them was Aginor! Holy crap I've read this so much and I never realized...

 

Wait, now I'm questioning it. When Moridin and Cyndane showed up everyone was like "Who are they!? They must be Ishmael and Lanfear!" but when Osan'gar and Aran'gar show up they NEVER mention their original names in reference to them. This is really weird...

 

-

 

Regarding angreals and sa'angreals, they don't have Power, in themselves.  Rather, they add to or multiply the amount of Power the channeler can safely access and control.  The only object that might be said to have Power are wells, which are ter'angreal.

Ehhh, that's way overly particular, especially since I don't think Moiraine knew what wells were (correct me if I'm wrong, but cite your sources). It's a little ridiculous when you consider that some angreal are more 'powerful' than others.

 

Regarding Rand's three bond-mates keeping Rand's survival a secret, remember that the ink on the Dragon's Peace is still quite fresh, and one of the conditions for nations signing on to it is that Rand gives his life to save the world from the Dark One.  Discovering that Rand survived would give an excuse for some of those nations, Murandy, and perhaps the Seanchan, to declare the compact void as its conditions weren't met.  Elayne's not gonna want to give Murandy that excuse given they're right on the border and Andor leads the largest alliance of nations, Min's not gonna want to give the Seanchan an excuse to continue their war of expansion, and Aviendha probably realizes that the survival of the Car'a'carn would throw the surviving Aiel leadership hierarchy into chaos similar to what happened when Rand first revealed himself to the Aiel in the Waste.  It's also worth noting that the 3 spent a bit of time together as Rand is "dying," and so would likely have come to an agreement to keep the weirdness they felt coming through the Bond a secret.

It's been a week or two since I finished the book so memory isn't as fresh-

 

I don't think they did that, but as far as I can remember that sounds plausible.

 

As for Luc/Isam, his relationship with Rand/Lan is really not all that relevant, it's there to show how much the events of the Last Battle all swirl around Rand, even before he was born, and to give a sort of unnecessary explanation for why Rand's birth father is dead.

Like I mentioned in a different comment, his relationship with Galad was brought up, despite the fact that he never had any real connection to Galad- so I maintain that it's weird that the relationship was never explicitly stated.

 

Egwene is so Mary Sue-ish because narratively, she's sort of the female counterpart to Rand.  Much of her development doesn't really come out-of-the-blue, the only thing really jarring is how quickly she picks things up, but then, so does everybody else in the story.  Rand becomes effectively a blademaster in less than a year of training, without ever holding a sword before that (in this life).  Nynaeve can copy a weave after only seeing it once, is one of the stronger channelers in history, and has a habit of doing things that were thought to be impossible, even in the Age of Legends, like healing Stilling, or healing the Taint's insanity, Elayne picks up weather weaving after only a couple of weeks of training with the Sea Folk and becomes a skilled high-wire acrobat with literally no prior training, Min becomes a competent academic scholar capable of reading the Old Tongue without any formal training, Perrin picks up leadership and administration skills mostly effortlessly and in spite of not trying to learn them.  Only Mat's leap in skills doesn't seem Mary Sue-ish, ironically, because he gets those skills through Finn magic.

I think with almost everything else I kind of bought that they picked it up because it was some 'ability' that was only demonstrated with saying "and they used the ability, and it was great" like Rand's swordsmanship and abilities with the power, which are frequently demonstrated as spontaneous things done instinctively/with intuition (which I guess made sense, since Aes Sedai never try new things because they fear getting burned out). With Perrin I strongly felt that his leadership came from being Ta'veren, because it was explained that if Tam or other people tried similar things it wouldn't have had the same effect.

 

Egwene's state was not some kind of spontaneous ability, and I always felt like where the abilities spoke for themselves her position was demonstrated with how everyone else wouldn't shut up about how amazing she is- when I was almost never particularly impressed with what she did.

 

If they had just said that she was Ta'veren as well I wouldn't have questioned it but whereas Rand, Mat and Perrin's abilities could almost exclusively be chalked up to Ta'veren/special abilities- we're supposed to buy that Egwene is just perfect and amazing. I never had a problem with Egwene's dreamwalker/dreamer status, just how everyone reacted to her.

[Magicana]

 

 

I'm going to have to specifically look for this when I eventually reread the first book but I could swear that Egwene was referring to Moiraine's angreal when she mentioned items having power and Moiraine mentioned that "items don't have power" or something along those lines

 

I know what you're referring too here. It's either her staff (Which she discards after cutting through the waygate) or her tiara, which she uses to focus some weaves. It's not an Angreal, but just the way that she learned some particular weaves.

 

 

 

Pardon my mistake- where is it stated what the Ring is?

I assume the Rods of Dominion still refer to objects, as the Amyrlin Seat is actually a physical object in addition to being the name of a position.

 

I can't quite recall where it was mentioned (Or if it was said by Jordan outside the series). Perhaps from the BWB, I haven't read it for some time.

 

I thought the same of the Rods, but given Ishamael said that he 'Summoned the nine Rods of Dominion" I would assume that they are office-holders. 

 

 

 

What's the BWB?

I think you're mixing Balthamel up with Aran'gar here.

... Wait. Are Aginor/Balthamel Osan'gar and Aran'gar!? HOLY CRAP I NEVER REALIZED THAT!

So THAT'S why it was mentioned that one of them created Trollocs! Because one of them was Aginor! Holy crap I've read this so much and I never realized...

Wait, now I'm questioning it. When Moridin and Cyndane showed up everyone was like "Who are they!? They must be Ishmael and Lanfear!" but when Osan'gar and Aran'gar show up they NEVER mention their original names in reference to them. This is really weird...

 

Well that solves that mystery for you. The price of failure is to have their old names obliterated. They are definitely Aginor/Balthamel though. 

[Sabio]

The BWB, is the Big White Book.  People weren't sure Cyndane use to be Lanfear because Cyndane was weaker in the power then Lanfear was. I am guessing because some of her power got fed on when she was captured like Moraine.  So that threw some off.  For Ishy it might of been because he was so crazy when he died that it threw some off but didn't take them long to figure out who Moridin was simply from the memories he had.  The only hints in the book I can remember about who Aginor/Balthamel use to be was a couple of comments.  For Osan'gar there was a mention of if it wasn't for his talent he never would of been made a chosen.  For Aran'gar I think it was Grendel that thought how Aran'gar's appetites had only increased since being put in his new body. 

 

My issue with Aginor is in the BWB it describes him as the 2nd most powerful man, yet in the he is always made to seem like a wuss by the other forsaken.

[Thrasymachus]

Ehhh, that's way overly particular, especially since I don't think Moiraine knew what wells were (correct me if I'm wrong, but cite your sources). It's a little ridiculous when you consider that some angreal are more 'powerful' than others. 

I don't believe she did either, which is how she could get away with saying that "things don't have Power."  She didn't know, so she didn't lie.  It's largely a matter of interpretation too, as ter'angreal definitely seem to be things that have Power, seeing as how some of them don't even need a channeler to make them work and Moiraine definitely knew of ter'angreal.  But they still need channelers to make 'em, and it could be along those lines that Moiraine's thinking.  Things don't innately have Power, it takes a channeler doing something specific to "imbue" Power into them. 

 

It's been a week or two since I finished the book so memory isn't as fresh-

 

I don't think they did that, but as far as I can remember that sounds plausible.

 

 

It's been a bit longer than that for me, but I was pretty sure they were described as talking to each other and being together for a bit in the last chapter.  I could be wrong, I'd have to try to read it again, and tbh, I'd rather start from tEotW again than just re-read the last chapter of MoL.  It leaves a minor mystery that's not really that much of a mystery, as they each have their own personal motivations for keeping Rand's survival a secret.  

 

Like I mentioned in a different comment, his relationship with Galad was brought up, despite the fact that he never had any real connection to Galad- so I maintain that it's weird that the relationship was never explicitly stated.

 

That's probably because Galad was on the same side, and Rand told a lot of people about Tigraine/Shaile, including Egwene, who told Gawyn, who told Galad.  As for why Luc wasn't brought up as being Rand's uncle, it probably because not many people knew he was still around.  You have that story of Janduin being killed by a man who resembled Shaile, but that's pretty much it until Perrin starts fighting with him, and while Perrin notices his resemblance to Rand/Lan, Isam/Luc never saw fit to tell Perrin of it, so there would really have been no context in which to bring it up.  The fact that Luc is Rand's uncle, and Isam is Lan's cousin (who is Rand's teacher), is for narrative purposes, to show the reader how everything revolves around Rand.

 

I think with almost everything else I kind of bought that they picked it up because it was some 'ability' that was only demonstrated with saying "and they used the ability, and it was great" like Rand's swordsmanship and abilities with the power, which are frequently demonstrated as spontaneous things done instinctively/with intuition (which I guess made sense, since Aes Sedai never try new things because they fear getting burned out). With Perrin I strongly felt that his leadership came from being Ta'veren, because it was explained that if Tam or other people tried similar things it wouldn't have had the same effect.

 

Egwene's state was not some kind of spontaneous ability, and I always felt like where the abilities spoke for themselves her position was demonstrated with how everyone else wouldn't shut up about how amazing she is- when I was almost never particularly impressed with what she did.

 

If they had just said that she was Ta'veren as well I wouldn't have questioned it but whereas Rand, Mat and Perrin's abilities could almost exclusively be chalked up to Ta'veren/special abilities- we're supposed to buy that Egwene is just perfect and amazing. I never had a problem with Egwene's dreamwalker/dreamer status, just how everyone reacted to her.

 

 

 

 

And that's fine, but what of Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min?  They're not ta'veren either, and yet manage to do these amazingly difficult things with very short periods of trying and training, if any at all.   

[Mr Ares]

 

And? If it's not important, it doesn't need to be there.

 

That was my point when I mentioned Galad. His familial relationship to Rand ultimately meant nothing, but it was actually a surprisingly close relationship that WAS explicitly mentioned- whereas Isam/Luc's relationships to two of the most significant characters aren't ever explicitly stated (unless I'm simply forgetting it).

 

If something doesn't need to be there, then while its presence might not be harmful, its absence is hardly notable.

 

 

 

Many things are stated which are not true. We know there is an afterlife, we know it is inaccessible to Shai'tan (that's why he cannot get at the souls of people killed with balefire), so we can therefore say that it is not true that He is the time between lives. We have no solid reason to believe that He is the cause of death.

How do you know there's an afterlife?

 

Word of God

 

 

 

9. Rod of Tamyrlin? Do you mean the Rods of Dominion and the Ring of Tamyrlin? The Ring was an artefact from the first person to discover channelling, which started the Age of Legends. The Rods of Dominion was an office that was held by men/women.

Pardon my mistake- where is it stated what the Ring is?

 

I assume the Rods of Dominion still refer to objects, as the Amyrlin Seat is actually a physical object in addition to being the name of a position.

 

The extended glossary in the two volume edition of EotW. Also, while the Rods of Dominion might be objects, nothing of significance is known of those objects, besides them being symbols of office.

 

If they had just said that she was Ta'veren as well I wouldn't have questioned it but whereas Rand, Mat and Perrin's abilities could almost exclusively be chalked up to Ta'veren/special abilities- we're supposed to buy that Egwene is just perfect and amazing. I never had a problem with Egwene's dreamwalker/dreamer status, just how everyone reacted to her.

We know ta'veren effect more than just themselves - we see Perrin's army get very good very fast in the last couple of books - and it's said that some ta'veren might be able to influence threads across the whole Pattern. That's at least a partial excuse for all the rapid learning, for Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Min, and anyone else you might need to justify.

[Bushwhacker2k]

And that's fine, but what of Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min?  They're not ta'veren either, and yet manage to do these amazingly difficult things with very short periods of trying and training, if any at all.

Nynaeve and Elayne are powerful channelers and Min has the Doomsight (or whatever Tuon called it), which generally covers the gambit of their exploits, other than Elayne being trained from birth.

[mb]

Regarding Rand's three bond-mates keeping Rand's survival a secret, remember that the ink on the Dragon's Peace is still quite fresh, and one of the conditions for nations signing on to it is that Rand gives his life to save the world from the Dark One.

Skimmed various parts of Memory of Light after I got it.  The scene where Rand and the leaders meet was one of them.

Rand's part of the agreement with them I take was to face the Dark One; no more.

As far as I recall, Lews Therin was the only character toward which Rand promised to die.  Gathering Storm; and I think also several previous books.

[Magicana]

 

Regarding Rand's three bond-mates keeping Rand's survival a secret, remember that the ink on the Dragon's Peace is still quite fresh, and one of the conditions for nations signing on to it is that Rand gives his life to save the world from the Dark One.

Skimmed various parts of Memory of Light after I got it.  The scene where Rand and the leaders meet was one of them.

Rand's part of the agreement with them I take was to face the Dark One; no more.

As far as I recall, Lews Therin was the only character toward which Rand promised to die.  Gathering Storm; and I think also several previous books.

 

 

Rand agrees that they can die at Tarmon Gai'don after the attack on the mansion in KOD, where LTT had hold of the source and was about to re-make Dragonmount.

[DemandredFO]

Aginor was probably powerful in the AOL because he literally made the shadow's armies; without him, the war of Power probably would have been more even. In the 3rd age, Aginor had no lab and was a fish out of water.

 

One of my myriad problems with Egwene is that she never faces the music that she isn't as special as she thinks; the series is about Rand getting smacked over the head, Mat gets caught by tylin(for good or ill), Perrin realizes he's an idiot over Faile, Nyneave almost dies breaking her block, among other things, Elayne gets herself captured, and many others. It was a good Egwene died or eventually she'd lead the tower straight off a cliff.

[Suttree]

But that isn't really true. We see her get slapped down at various times throughout the series(made damane, captured and tortured by the tower AS, etc.) Additionally there are a number of examples of her showing introspection and examining missteps/mistakes.

 

As for your last sentence, in her short time leading the WT she brought about more positive change than had happened in hundreds of years. She saw they needed to give up power and learn from all the other channeling cultures. The exchange program was a huge step for the future. That's hardly the stuff of leading of a cliff.

[DemandredFO]

Never apologized to Nyneave for what she did to her in TAR, refuses to see that without Suian coming to get her, she would be dead, thinks she knows best, thinking everyone telling stories about Halima was an idiot, coercing Sheriam and the others to swear to obey but Eliada is wrong to contemplate it, and many other examples. At least her time being captured and tortured by the Seanchan had a negative effect, being captured and beaten by the tower has no effect.

[Suttree]

Never apologized to Nyneave for what she did to her in TAR,

 

That was indeed her lowest moment in the series.