[Standard] - Hitchhiker's Game to the Galaxy - Game Over

nervositee · May 23, 2014

Ok, I'm really sorry guys, but RL have kept me away from the computer today, and I'm going away really early tomorrow and be gone until sunday, so I will in all probability not catch up before D1 deadline. Sorry about that. I'll make it up to you. Eh, somehow. Re-read also going a bit slower since some new players brought some new terms and gamestyle, so I kinda feel like a complete newb again :laugh:

My gut is determined Cory is town. I'm wary since from what I've heard he is an awesome scum-player, but I'll trust my gut for now.

Also thinking Des is, and that these last pages have been town-on-town, but not sure.

Also wondering where Dice is, but as far as I saw, he "claimed" sick, so RL benefit of the doubt (always).

Slight suspicion on Nyn. I know she has a very different playstyle, and come across as aggro by default, but not a fan of places where she has been more concerned about ridiculing the person FoSing her, than answer or explain. Doesn't seem like town-game. But not something I'll go with just yet - just because I know we are different ;)

From what I read (which is the first and last part), my gut has a iffy feeling on Clov. And I'm starting to trust my gut D1, even though with the information I have now I can't put my finger on it, or make a solid case.

Well aware this is extremely wishy-wash, and I always get in trouble D1 for being to cautious with my votes - just to be led around my mafia, but whatthehell. Without having actually read the thread I'm gonna refrain from making any solid statements, but here is what my gut feels, for what its worth ;) Would be ok with placing my vote where my gut is on Clov, but brain is not working so I'll hold off.

Again, sorry guys - haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like day 1. I'll get back 100% from over the weekend :)

Nynaeve · May 23, 2014

Slight suspicion on Nyn. I know she has a very different playstyle, and come across as aggro by default, but not a fan of places where she has been more concerned about ridiculing the person FoSing her, than answer or explain. Doesn't seem like town-game. But not something I'll go with just yet - just because I know we are different ;)

Well not THAT concerned about it, as much as adding it in FOR THE FUN :D

On a serious note, I answered questions and foses directed at me to the best of my ability. Not much I can do beyond that.

Enjoy your weekend!!

Nyn

Cory Caboose · May 23, 2014

Home from work and point of order: I'm white-knighting Nyn basically forever

She was seen as a mostly-consensus villager and it made her start working even harder

I think AJ has been arguing with her (I have not really thoroughly read any post not about me today), so my generally word of advice there would be STAHP

Anyway, besides dinner, I'll be refreshing the thread to chat in real time with anyone around while I do my reread. If TRW was any indication I'll probably be around til liek 4am, night owlz

There will be questions and stuff

Nynaeve · May 23, 2014

*is a night owl* Hi =)

Nyn

BFG · May 23, 2014

Ok, this is the Clov/Des thing I've been trying to explain, in all it's gory detail. Some quotes are going to be a bit repetitive I'm afraid, since I've quoted them a few times to try and make my point.

I will spoiler it though.

A lot of posts have had quotes deleted for clarity.

So this is Clov's first post referencing a joke. Note that this is his OP.

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

This is Des's first post referencing the same thing.

Lets lynch all girls and leave me with all the guys ^_^

Nyn

I looked up how to lynch all the girls in the Guide, and it said "don't".

*snerk*

Mish won

Des carries on catching up and votes Clov. I initially assumed it was a joke vote.

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

^Scum

[v]Clovfish[/v]

However here he states that it was a genuine mafia read. The problem with this is that Des is voting Clov for something he did as well.

And a random smattering of other stuff:

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

Fwiw this was the post which earlier made me feel Clov might be scum- he references a joke that was already old by this point. To me it looked like scum trying to fit in with the jokey atmosphere but not reacting in the moment

Since then however he has looked much townier to me, he has followed up on stuff worth following up on, is asking questions and engaging others, but not being opportunistic about it. He's one of my stronger town reads now in fact.

Which I try to point out here.

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/89426-standard-hitchhikers-game-to-the-galaxy-day-one/?p=3253061

Ok, Des says this is the quote that gave him a mafia read on Clove

Fwiw this was the post which earlier made me feel Clov might be scum- he references a joke that was already old by this point. To me it looked like scum trying to fit in with the jokey atmosphere but not reacting in the moment

Since then however he has looked much townier to me, he has followed up on stuff worth following up on, is asking questions and engaging others, but not being opportunistic about it. He's one of my stronger town reads now in fact.

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

Lets lynch all girls and leave me with all the guys ^_^

Nyn

I looked up how to lynch all the girls in the Guide, and it said "don't".

*snerk*

Mish won

Yet Des's first post references the same thing and comes after Clov's.

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

^Scum

[v]Clovfish

And his vote to complete the sequence.

I'm not following Des much at all yet.

Des's first response is basically to discredit me. Although to be fair he later responds more fully.

BFG most likely aint town. Meta read, but her wot's are completely off. She'll wot as town or scum, but as town her wots are filled with questions and her looking for small things others may have missed. As scum she'll just sheep stuff others have said and respond to OT stuff a lot. This meta is extremely reliable btw- I have correctly read her the past ~5 games I've been in with her. I'll respond to her stuff towards me specifically if I get the chance. Suffice it to say however, that she has risen high on my scumdar since.

Gonna go ahead and spoiler this wall, has a lot of good stuff tho:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/89426-standard-hitchhikers-game-to-the-galaxy-day-one/?p=3253061

Ok, Des says this is the quote that gave him a mafia read on Clove

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

*snerk*

Mish won

Yet Des's first post references the same thing and comes after Clov's.

(my vote on Clov when I first joined game)

And his vote to complete the sequence.

I'm not following Des much at all yet.

Uh, you serious? Pretty obvious what the difference is here. Clov posts during the day, like a normal person. I post at night, like a vampire. He is able to react to everything realtime, minus the occasional ninja, I catch up on everything after most action has died down already. I kinda like just posting as I catch up lately, makes it very organic and hopefully lets others see me as town sooner, so I first reacted to Mish's post, then several pages later saw Clov talking about the joke. Wasn't much, but to me at the time it looked like it coulda been Clov trying to react naturally to banter but not doing it in the moment, moar catching up to everyone else. Plus, in this way scum can extend earlier joke conversations.

So here he's saying that the difference between his post and Clov's was that Clov can post in the moment while Des is playing catch up. Problem is that this is Clov's first post, so him saying it's Clov trying to react normally to banter, but failing doesn't make any sense, since Clov is effectively playing catch up as well.

Uh, you serious? Pretty obvious what the difference is here. Clov posts during the day, like a normal person. I post at night, like a vampire. He is able to react to everything realtime, minus the occasional ninja, I catch up on everything after most action has died down already. I kinda like just posting as I catch up lately, makes it very organic and hopefully lets others see me as town sooner, so I first reacted to Mish's post, then several pages later saw Clov talking about the joke. Wasn't much, but to me at the time it looked like it coulda been Clov trying to react naturally to banter but not doing it in the moment, moar catching up to everyone else. Plus, in this way scum can extend earlier joke conversations.

Above is Deep's response to me...

Lynching all the girls is a dumb idea. Now lynching other dudes? THAT I can get behind.

This is Clov's first post... incidentally about 40 minutes before Des's OP

Which again I try to point out.

That being said, you were right about Leelou responding to Verbal before I thought she did. Missed that. And eh, I guess I can see your point regarding my initial suspicion of Clov. But, like I've said before, being hypocritical doesn't necessarily make you scum. I will often fos others for doing stuff I do all the time. Sort of a "Do as I say, not as I do" situation.

This is Des's most recent response. And now he says he's being hypocritical, but makes no mention of trying to pass it off earlier as Clov being slow to respond, which implies that he's been in thread and posting.

But this doesn't jive with what he said earlier, or maybe he's still missing my point. Clov's first post was him playing catch up, so Des's entire reason for voting is null and void. If Des missed that it was Clov's first post than fine just say so. Or if he was being hypocritical why not say so first instead of trying to sell Clov extending joke/being slow to respond?

TLDR: Clov enters thread with a response to Nyn's joke, Des enters the thread with the same thing. Des later votes Clov for the joke and later explains that it was a genuine mafia read. I question him and he says that it's because Des is playing catch up while Clov can play real time. I point out that it was Clov's OP and Des says, being hypocritical doesn't make him mafia.

Being hypocritical doesn't make him mafia, but I don't understand why it took so long to get to an answer.

Cory Caboose · May 23, 2014

*is a night owl* Hi =)

Nyn

BFG · May 23, 2014

am on page 40 but quickly responding

BFG do you remember everything everyone says and who said it? cause if you do you're mind is a better grade of steel trap then mine.

looking at the quote you gave me of mish i remember it i also remember thinking she was excited about the theme and "geeking out" as cory put it. I know i was the asame in Scooby Doo and Mortal Instruments.

I am really struggling with this game. I am in constant catch up mode cause most of the posting happens when i am at work. And at work i get maybe 2 mins every now and again to look at the thread. If im lucky. and then when i do post there is nothing for ages, eg i posted quickly at lunch yesterday, when i went to bed that night eight hours later there had been 22 posts. Only about 5 of these had substance. I posted on page 34. I woke up at 5am and theres now 42 pages lol Catching up again. Its driving me nuts cause i feel like im skimming and missing things.

And no im not tugging at heart strings, simply trying to explain my POV. But i will of course get accused of ATE whatevs.

I didn't like Leelou's thing with Mish. It struck me wrong and like she knew something. The questions Des gave her were ones that were fairly easy to answer in a town manner. I think she is mafia. I may be wrong. But it is the one thing that has really stuck with me, so i am following it.

No, I don't remember everything that people said. But if I remember a topic of conversation, I tend to remember (at least some) of the people involved.

I have no reason to mistrust your claim, but I'd appreciate more reads on the other players. You generally have good instinct when town. Particularly, given your read on Leelou as 'knowing something' what's your read on MishnowVos?

BFG · May 23, 2014

dice is probably the watcher

let's not lynch him

If it wasn't for his claim, would you think he was town from his play? Since character claims are allowed, there are probably safe fake claims.

He's pretty firmly in my null pile but I don't have enough to have a firm read on him, but he's a claimed PR that gets night results so don't know how long he can do that dance if he's Mafia, and his character claim makes sense irt his role

Mass Effect Mafia guys: Did csarmi give you guys fakeclaims?

No, but character claiming wasn't allowed either. I'd assume the mafia were given fake claims since character claiming is allowed.

BFG · May 23, 2014

Also, inb4 one of the townies says "So long and thanks for all the fish" in his Bah post..

There, you all lost your one creative reference idea.

Minor point but interesting that Pral separates himself from townies in this post.

And I guess once again I fins myself on the unpopular side of the fence but meh.

What makes you think that Des's initial vote on Clov was a joke/reaction test?

Why are you using Tommy's meta on Clov from a game where Tommy was wrong about Clov's alignment to help shape your read?

Pretty sure Cory reference Thane's self read.s

Just spent the last few hours reading the whole game and getting some sort of narrative.

First, yes, I am not an active player D1 because I tend to need some information on hand before getting a good read on players. D1 is more of tone and assumptions which I am not very comfortable with.

Second, I get a lot of info by reading the thread as a whole rather than post by post. Which is probably why I have only a

bunch of posts D1 in almost all my games. It will exponentially increase as the game progresses, but there we are.

Anyway, back to the reads. Let me get my good town reads out of the way.

Des - I see him trying to explore a lot of avenues, which he does a lot as town. In this game, he started out with Clov which was somewhat of a joke/reaction test vote. Then he votes Leelou and his case on her was pretty straightforward at the time and lately Dice. He is not throwing darts but more of having a stance on each of his suspects, which is a good towntell on him.

Clov - I can sense that he is not overdoing the questioning routine that Tommy pointed out the in Real Genius game. His stance on Dice again has been good and not the nudgy type I saw when I was scummate with him

Thane - I don't agree with Des about him overdoing the newbie meta. His tone feels genuine. Have played only one game with him, his first game where he was scum. Maybe he has changed his gameplay as he is more experienced now. Nobody noticed it but a big LOL at reading himself here.

Verbal - Yeah, I am not seeing the lurky scum meta in this game. He is a bit aggressive, had a good back-and-forth with Cory regarding his tonereads. He is not hiding in the background as he usually does as scum. Town on him

That are my current town reads as of now. I will get back on the rest of the players tomorrow as i spent a way lot of time reading the game and it is already 2:00 AM here. First thing after I wake up.

Continuing from where I left yesterday.

Among the rest, following are the null but slightly leaning town group

Cory - His play has been slightly different here. He is doing a lot of "POE the town reads" which he does every game, whether he is town or scum. But, I don't see the aggressiveness that he goes after his people which looks like he is still trying to solve. He was easily sheeping off other scum reads in the RG game and voting the trains, which is missing here. However, the absolute lack of a stance or vote on anyone make me feel a bit iffy because it looks like he is intentionally trying to avoid it - and this is what pushes him to null.

Mish/Vos - She plays quite carefully as scum and doing those subtle nudges. Her vote on Leelou was not her trying to blend in but actually going after her reads. There were other points brought out by others - her "you target when I am sleeping" comment was basically null and I don't see why it has got as much attention.

Tina - I liked this post from her where she seems quite frank about her fence-sitting. However, her vote on Dice seemed slightly out of the blue but considering that she has mainly commented on Dice, Mish and leelou so far, I can get why she voted her

Dice - Dice is always hard to read because his posts usually comes off as scummy. He doesn't explain things very well and goes after what others have already said. However, I can sympathise with him because I find myself in the same situation - where we are not on real time conversation with others and are mostly catching up. That said, he has claimed as scum in some games before and as someone suggested, Watcher could also be a scum (given Csarmi's setups, this is a good possibility). However, as of now, I can believe his claim and he will soon be caught later if he is lying.

AJ - His reads have looked straightforward, including the one on mine (which I will address in a later post). I am not liking him doing a wagonomics analysis before we have got any flips, but can see the intent. Ties to what Cory went after me in the RG game - about conditional reads. Slightly looks more like he has some information that others don't and setting up based on that.

Now, on to the truly NULL read

Lazy - I haven't seen him giving any read at all in the game. I resonate with his style in that D1 is a poopfest and about not sharing when it is not needed. If I am not getting any reads in D2 or further when there is a lot of information to base it on, then I will get suspicious

Then, the actual Null to slightly scum reads.

BFG - I was hydra with her on the Mass Effect game and I could see the difference in her WoTs in that game. Des has already mentioned it but her WoTs are there because it needs to be there. Rather than truly focusing on the gameplay. I can see her trying to hide in her WoTs

RTE - His fencesitting on Dice didn't sit well with me. His vote on Dice came quite opportunistically and he starts fencesitting on him saying that he has difficulty in reading Dice . His play seems to be very safe so far.

Hallia - Her vote on Mish was basically sheeping on what others said andfocusing on a minor point about Mish's sleeping statement. Looks like a forced vote and not liking that. Again, playing very safe not trying to have a hard stance on a lot of people.

Leelou - She has been in both Mish and Dice wagons and the votes have not looked convincing. She seems to buddy Verbal a lot, which is kind of normal that she would but I am not seeing a genuine read of her on him. Like when she explains her read on everyone but verbal or liking a post just for the heck of it.

Nynaeve - I don't see why a lot of people have a townread on her. From my read on her, she is looking like someone who is doing a lot of FoS but not pursuing it a lot, which seems to like setting up for future days. Starte off with AJ but apart from a couple of conevrsations with AJ, doesn't take it further. And, suspecting Mish and taking it a bit ahead but never voting her. The only stance she had was on Dice but she unvoted him even when she is iffy on him and even after arguing on a very minor point. I think there were some FoS on verbal and Des too in her gameplay, from what I remember. I also see her defending Leelou a lot, which I am feeling slightly iffy with. Overall, I feel that she is talking from the sidelines in most issues and her only strong stance was on Dice which she is currently fence-sitting.

Town:

Nyn

Des

Verbal

Clov

Tina

Town Lean:

Andrej

Thane

Dice

Pral

Corey

Null:

Vos

Leelou

Scum lean:

BFG - Something seems off about her posting and moreso the content. Like the ISO someone did on her. Don't like what I see from it.

Hallia - Too much sheeping, not enough reads and independent thinking. Or posting for that matter.
Lazy - That ISO by Nyn was great. Lazy has been posting much ado about nothing at all and it escaped me till

Anyway, back to business.

What is really apparent from this list is that you have more or less the active players as town and the less active posters as scum. I don't exactly like it because it looks to me as if you are trying to target a least-resistance path.

BFG · May 23, 2014

huh, posted early and quote formats screwed up.

Less active players?

BFG · May 23, 2014

And I'm out for the night. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have chance to reread.

Edit:

*all the stuff I skimmed last 2 days.

dicetosser1 · May 23, 2014

leelou I thought i answered all clovs questions. let me know which ones you reckon i didnt but know that I dont care if you think I give the "right" answers

BFG right now i am reading some people as town but no other strong feelings of who is mafia. I think both Des and Cory are town, and have for a while, but corys reactions since his "thunderdome" idea have shaken me a little I think clov is town.

strong lean, not completely sold yet, on AJ being town. Undecided on the rest tho I am up for a CFD on hallia. She only pops up when she is mentioned and even then its just a "hi im here!" sort of thing mainly.

@cory you asked what people expected. Well regarding your thunderdome idea??? I expected Des to lay out an argument and you to argue a counter to it.

unvote leelou

vote hallia

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

@cory you asked what people expected. Well regarding your thunderdome idea??? I expected Des to lay out an argument and you to argue a counter to it.

I did mean to address this actually, besides what was said on Leelou.

Leggo

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

Des: If we want to continue this discussion, let's go point-by-point.

Well at least in that post your frustration looks like it could be genuine.

Alright well if you wanna thunderdome, that's fine with me. I won't back down, especially not when you always say youll never try to lynch me or Tom D1 cause were too valuable if town and yet now think no one else should be lynched besides us two, which I think is incredibly

Look at it from my perspective Cory. There's been three people that I can recall easily you being challenged about after townreading them. In each case, you grew irritated and confrontational about saying WHY they seemed town, which doesn't make sense at all to me since that's how the game is played. You talk about your reads. Each one specifically tho is a bit strange-

While I have certainly done it before, when have you ever seen me fake frustration as Mafia? I can think of 2-3 games we have played in where I have gone off the rails frustrated with another player.

VS Hunt II: With LoganAura and probably the most hostile I have ever gotten in a Mafia game. I was town and went full GOAT later in the game.

Blood Bowl: With Tom during Day 1. Was leader of town-supporting Indy faction and played a GOAT town game and a giant part of scum being stomped enroute to one of the best town victories in the history of WF.

Twilight Mini-Mafia: With Darthe and then some. I was town lovers with BFG.

The Red Wedding: Well, with everyone, basically. I was town cop with Andrej.

You have seen me as Mafia twice in our entire history of Mafia together.

VS Hunt II, first boot: tried to infiltrate and control Tommy-Des powertown group, failed.

Real Genius: Played town leader post-Tommy death until getting shot by Pral.

So, please tell me where YOU got the notion that it's a Mafia treat for me to fake frustration.

As for the "I-Don't-Lynch-Certain-Players", that was something I said to Tommy at some point during Blood Bowl. I don't think I have ever said it in regards to you, but I will lynch anyone if I believe they are Mafia. Moreso, me and Tom's meta has changed drastically over the past few months and the concept of the #alliance is a dead horse that really never lived in the idea that I hold "pre-game alliances".

The argument from Tom is that I think he's too good of a wolf for me to ever be able to catch him on Day 1, and that I would usually need a few phases to figure out if his progression is pro-town. Please tell me where you got the notion that you are on some magic no-lynch list on Day 1.

I don't remember "growing irritated and confrontational" about my townreads. I have grown irritated with certain players, but before last night all I can really remember is me and Verbal hashing some things out and I got frustrated with him at some point, but it passed quickly and we at least understood eachother. IIRC I got tired of explaining my AJ townread, but I was also very transparent at explaining it. I guess I will go through each of these one-by-one.

Leelou- you cleared her faster than anyone besides Tina. A few took exception to this, and later challenged you on it. You said she was trying to figure things out. When challenged on THAT, you quoted her response to the vig question from Clov. But that post (iirc) came AFTER you had already "cleared" her. Strike 1.

I responded to this in brief here:

I read about his first three paragraphs and I'm legit done with this. He says I mishandled my clearing of Leelou - first problem is I NEVER CLEARED LEELOU. I said she was > rand to be villa because her snap vote on Tina for drawing attention to herself was more likely to come from a villager. She's been in my green pile (see: light villager) for that and that she seems to be paying attention (ie the vig post that apparently came "after I cleared Leelou")

What blows my goddamn mind about this is that Des keeps crying about how I'm not clearing him, says I'm mishandling Leelou for clearing her WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN RIGHT GODDAMN NEXT TO EACHOTHER ON MY LIGHT VILLA LIST

but since the onus is on my to provide evidence, here is my progression on Leelou:

from the hip, not enough that i feel the need to reread ATM

no wolves yet, but i got a handful of villagers

Andrej
Tina

BFG
Thane

Leelou

everyone else is varying degrees of null i don't feel like arbitrarily sorting out

i guess if there's any onus of pressure it would be on Nyn, Verb, Des and Clov as they have enough content and they haven't hit the villager list but a lot of people haven't said much of anything yet so I'm a couple miles away from a vote

I will eventually read Clov's soul but he hasn't been too visible yet

Leelou seem interested in figuring things out, which is something I didn't see at all in her scum game - she was more reactionary

Tina being willing to draw potentially negative attention to herself early is her biggest towntell imo, she's another player I think I can read very well. I misread her in.... Mass Effect? and took a little more time to look over her games awhile ago and I think I understand the way she thinks pretty well

So, Des, where did I clear Leelou? In fact, IIRC, the only people to take exception to that read were Leelou and you, and I don't remember being "prickly" about it.

Onus would be on you to support your own evidence here. My progression on Leelou is about as linear as possible. She put a legitimate (but probably wrong) vote down early which basically cleared out the "we're all friends" page 1 of Day 1. I said she was > rand to be a villager, but nowhere have I ever said she was clear.

My later progression, as stated previously, irt to Despot's placement:

Meh, go big or go home

Still no active howlers, but I feel okay about my greens and great about my blues

Nulls are in no real order

Tina
Andrej

Thane
BFG

Verbal

Lazy

Leelou

Despo

Clov

Nynaeve

Pralaya

Mish

RTE
Hallia

Dice

Too many villagers not enough wolves ATM, which actually is a super good thing

Maybe I'm just the optimist this game and we are all town?

So no, I don't really know what to address about this in particular considering it's a fabrication.

Will keep going.

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

AJ- you cleared him fast, altho a couple of people found him questionable early on. When Verb challenged you on this read, you were a little sensitive and prickly about it. AJ later started posting stuff that made him look a bit more likely to be town, but again this came after you cleared him early on. Strike 2.

What I remember about my AJ townread was about five different people asking me to elaborate on it, which I did numerous times, and numerous times for Verb. Do you believe it is a Mafia!Tell when somebody gets frustrated because they are continually asked to explain something they've already explained to the best of their ability?

And I love the "AJ started posting better later"... considering my elaborations were:

from the hip, not enough that i feel the need to reread ATM

no wolves yet, but i got a handful of villagers

Andrej
Tina

BFG
Thane

Leelou

everyone else is varying degrees of null i don't feel like arbitrarily sorting out

i guess if there's any onus of pressure it would be on Nyn, Verb, Des and Clov as they have enough content and they haven't hit the villager list but a lot of people haven't said much of anything yet so I'm a couple miles away from a vote

I will eventually read Clov's soul but he hasn't been too visible yet

Where's the Andre read coming from, and to a lesser degree, BFG and Thane? You said Tina and Leelou were had an increased chance of town after their voting, but I haven't seen anything that really makes me feel confident in anybody's chances to be town so fa

Just trust me as being the GOAT townreader and things you don't believe in like TOAN

It's hard to elaborate, I guess

AJ is the type of player I think I can read very quickly when he's a villager. We have similar thought process and he has intent to rock the boat IMO - I think he will get more obvious to you all as the game goes on but I've already seen enough

Thane I have only seen as Mafia and he seems more relaxed

BFG a couple of things, but I really liked her conversation with AJ

I would say if AJ doesn't get more obvious later feel free to disregard my read

But I've already seen his head poking around and I'm pretty sure you will see it soon enough

I feel the moisture in the air but it'd probably be smart for you to wait for the rain

Explaining things with metaphors is fun

AJ's town game is a beautiful and delicate flower while his scum game is a half-eaten burrito someone tossed on the side of the road

I have seen the stem peeking out of the grass

By that, I am almost entirely sure that he's not a half-eaten burrito

But you can wait for the flower to grooooooooooooooooow

Yeah, so I said "I am very familiar with what AJ's townie thought process is and I see it here but if it doesn't become more obvious I could be wrong"

Lo and behold, AJ became more obvious as the game went on

And on reread, I think I was probably more cordial to Verbal than I could have been.

I can soulread the hell out of AJ imo

I think Des cased him a little but I disagree with Des there entirely. AJ seems legit enthused about this game and is poking around the way I expect from his villager game. He doesn't really rev the engines until he gets a scumflip, but what he's been doing this game is much different than the sort of wishy-washy catch-ups and super-consensus stuff I remember from the VS game

Think of it this way: I see AJ as someone who as Mafia, will wait for other players to make the narrative and then constantly push the path of least resistance

Which I think is really a pretty generic and usual mafia strategy
Here AJ is trying to make his own narrative

I'm gonna just come out and say that I think this soulreading thing is crap. No personal offense intended - maybe I just dislike the term itself. You're still reading their gameplay, and how they interact with others, whether they are being aggressive/passive (or passive-aggressive, lol), and some meta.

If you are trying to say that soulreading = being able to read that person better than you can others, then fine. But it is still just reading them based on gameplay, with varying results depending on the player. I don't like "because, soulread" as a method to clear somebody.

As for the rest of your post, I disagree with you and agree with Nyn. AJ does appear to be going with the flow so far - I think Nyn pointed that out well in her explanation (thanks for reminding me who it was, Nyn). I agree with what you're saying for a scum player vs a town player, but I think you are incorrectly attributing what AJ has done thus far to townplay.

Hey, its early, and you might simply be better at reading AJ's playstyle/meta/interactions than some of us are. But to clear him based on support that doesn't appear to match the criteria you've set out is suspicious on your part.

bold = basically, a lot of it is tone as well. i have seen AJ up close and personal as town and this reminds me of his town game a lot

tone reads are sort of like the kwanzaa of mafia here, so that's not something worth a 3-page discussion

i really don't care if you think i'm suspicious for feeling confident in something i feel confident in

I don't really see how this is "prickly and confrontational" - I gave my read and my elaboration to Verbal, he said that "soulreading is crap", I told him my take on the term and told him I am confident in it regardless.

I probably could have been more prickly in my response to Verbal, but I wasn't, so looks like you accusing me of histrionics is mostly unfounded.

though i'm happy to discuss AJ further

this will make great reread material

SO

PRICKLY

I can soulread the hell out of AJ imo

I think Des cased him a little but I disagree with Des there entirely. AJ seems legit enthused about this game and is poking around the way I expect from his villager game. He doesn't really rev the engines until he gets a scumflip, but what he's been doing this game is much different than the sort of wishy-washy catch-ups and super-consensus stuff I remember from the VS game

Think of it this way: I see AJ as someone who as Mafia, will wait for other players to make the narrative and then constantly push the path of least resistance

Which I think is really a pretty generic and usual mafia strategy
Here AJ is trying to make his own narrative

I'm gonna just come out and say that I think this soulreading thing is crap. No personal offense intended - maybe I just dislike the term itself. You're still reading their gameplay, and how they interact with others, whether they are being aggressive/passive (or passive-aggressive, lol), and some meta.

If you are trying to say that soulreading = being able to read that person better than you can others, then fine. But it is still just reading them based on gameplay, with varying results depending on the player. I don't like "because, soulread" as a method to clear somebody.

As for the rest of your post, I disagree with you and agree with Nyn. AJ does appear to be going with the flow so far - I think Nyn pointed that out well in her explanation (thanks for reminding me who it was, Nyn). I agree with what you're saying for a scum player vs a town player, but I think you are incorrectly attributing what AJ has done thus far to townplay.

Hey, its early, and you might simply be better at reading AJ's playstyle/meta/interactions than some of us are. But to clear him based on support that doesn't appear to match the criteria you've set out is suspicious on your part.

bold = basically, a lot of it is tone as well. i have seen AJ up close and personal as town and this reminds me of his town game a lot

tone reads are sort of like the kwanzaa of mafia here, so that's not something worth a 3-page discussion

i really don't care if you think i'm suspicious for feeling confident in something i feel confident in

Bleh, tone. I'm with Clov on that one.

And you should care if somebody multiple people are leaning town on has you as suspicious. Haven't you said before that establishing a town core is very important early on? I agree with that, and I'd think you'd want to be seen as town early to help that plan move forward.

Good scum players can feign confidence easily. That is not a good way to reason it.

inb4 you use your obligatory "come @ me" line ;-)

Why would I want you to come @ me? I'm pretty confident you're a villager, I played extremely similar in TRW when you were Mafia and you just sort of let me do it lol

If you want to #FullDarthe at me I guess I have enough energy to go @ it for three pages but it would accomplish basically nothing

Anyone who isn't seeing me as town isn't reading my posts, but I'm not going to change my reads because another villager thinks I'm wrong when I'm pretty sure I'm right

That's not what "establishing a town base" is about

Verb taunts me a little, I respond being basically the opposite of confrontational.

At some point I am asked again about my AJ read and I quote my earlier posts and say "tired of discussing this"

I guess that was prickly, but... well, I was tired of discussing it.

My AJ read seems like it was pretty damn awesome, so I guess if knocking one out of the park is a strike I'm the strike-out king

Thane- I think you have the least reason to "clear" this guy. His OP was pretty standard for a newer player, it could have easily come from town!Thane or scum!Thane. Yet you maintain that it was pretty much the towniest OP in the game. You say his reads list had no agenda... but that doesn't make him town. A newer player prob won't try executing any convoluted agenda, he's prob just gonna try and fit in with consensus reads. Lastly you are completely ignoring his vote on Dice, which was just horribad. Again, I'm not the only person who finds Thane questionable, yet when I challenge you on it in a joking manner, you go off your rocker. Strike 3.

Maybe I'm misremembering but I don't believe I said anything at all about Thane's OP. My read on Thane is more that he seems utterly agendaless and his gameplay is more reflective of Once Upon A Time (where he was town and mislynched Day 2 because towns will town) than the one game where I saw him as Mafia and he bolted from the thread completely under pressure (Mass Effect).

I don't think you understand what I mean by agenda

I mean Thane's read lists literally looks like it could be the reads Thane holds when reading the thread. A lot of them are misinformed, but that's a bigger indicator of derp and Thane is being transparent and has made some newb-town connections (he lightly accused me and AJ of being scum together at some point in a way I don't think he would do as Mafia)

If you think Thane is the reason "I went off my rocker" I do not know what thread you are reading. Though you seemed to vote him pretty much to spite me, that was the least of my problems with you this game.

I didn't really analyze his Dice vote but it'll be something I'll look in context with his thought process on reread. But Thane really just looks like lynchbait this game.

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

So you struck out on the "being challenged about reads" thing, either clearing people BEFORE you saw stuff that could have cleared them, or getting prickly cause other people want to see your reasoning on the read.

Now, your tone is good, but then I recently learned that you can fake your tone very easily as scum (for quite a while you had me believing that it wouldn't be easy for you to fake the tone, that your game in ASR or w/e on VS was indicative of your normal scum game)

This has been addressed above and neither of these is true. My progression on Leelou is RIGHT THERE (and lol she was never "cleared"), my progression on AJ is right there and my progression on Thane is all over the thread (and I didn't put him in my blue pile until pretty recently and I went through two other Day 1s where he is town/mafia to get the confident I needed to do it)

I will not hear "you can fake good tone as Mafia so you aren't villagery for having good tone" as an argument ever. I have had an extremely pro-town agenda this whole game and there's a lot for me to sink my teeth into now.

There probably isn't that many drastic difference between my town and mafia games, but I care more as town and I get much more invested in the game emotionally - compare my reactions to my death and the play of my alignment in the Red Wedding to what happened in Real Genius for a good example of this. I vastly prefer being a villager and care much more about people having strong townplay than the Mafia-element of the game.

One of the reasons Clov's comparisons bother me (He brought up WWE, a game where I got really, really pissed at another player named PSU. There were two Mafia factions in that game and PSU was the other group's killer. I was copped Night 2 and outed Day 3 and he said something like "If Cory isn't Mafia I swear that I will never play Mafia again" and I sort of get tetchy when people make outside-the-game bets, I hollered @ Red for doing the same thing in TRW)

But that's probably something I want to hold for after my reread so I can get a really thought progression on Clov and not to the point of our conversation

Lastly, the way you've handled me. I feel I entered this game pretty much like I enter any game, yet you've acted wary of me from the start, always soft-pushing and using non-committal language to describe your opinion of me. Normally you have no problem being able to clear me pretty easily from the start.

Plus, while you've been hella active, I haven't seen you put in the typical amount of #work for a town!Cory game. You haven't gone quote hunting to back up or flesh out any reads of yours, unless someone else references it, you haven't reinforced your clears or POE like you normally would, and instead of being both reactionary AND proactive like I'm used to seeing, you've mainly just been reactionary this game.

I'm pretty sure I throw quite a few WUB gifs at you when you entered the game. For the most part, I said things like "Me and Des not seeing eye-to-eye is not really alignment indicative" - I have mostly stayed out of your way until last night, though we have had a few disagreements.

I don't just clear you for lulz, I clear you when I think you have done something worth clearing. You didn't do that early, but I certainly didn't lean Mafia on you. Just sort of told you to be patient.

As for "me not putting in the #work", I am not going to tell you to gfy (even though I have wanted to), but let's talk about my process since most people should be somewhat familiar with it now.

Generally I try to provoke discussion, get reads and information and reactions out of people, etc. for a good deal on Day 1.

Then I go back and reread everything and see every player's threadflow, thought process (and how consistent they are/what changes their reads), and overall emotional state. The Red Wedding was a great example of this - I mostly trolleyed around with Tom pushing people like Red and Dawn and generally being very much lovably-instigative Cory, but before EOD 1 I did a fully threshed reread with ideas in my head and that was the moment I demonstrated the value of my town game.

This has pretty much been my process for awhile, barring 2+2 games where I have to be MUCH more in the moment and there's never a great deal of elaboration/information (because people are just sort of hitting buttons)

This has been a pretty standard Cory game, so don't accuse me of "not doing #work" unless you want to push this as a battle of ideologies.

One more thing I want to address in full.

Andrej · May 24, 2014

Maybe I'm misremembering but I don't believe I said anything at all about Thane's OP. My read on Thane is more that he seems utterly agendaless and his gameplay is more reflective of Once Upon A Time (where he was town and mislynched Day 2 because towns will town) than the one game where I saw him as Mafia and he bolted from the thread completely under pressure (Mass Effect).

Let's not discuss that game :tongue:

Andrej · May 24, 2014

Cory - do you think Clov is coming from a good place with his case?

Andrej · May 24, 2014

I think Hallia is a good place to start. This type of play is kind of congruent with her meta, but she does it both as town or mafia so there isn't much to differentiate. Looking at the reasons she voted for Mish and how she has responded recently I would lean more towards her being mafia though. Another one of my scum leans, Nyn, voting someone other than her while leaving her at null also interests me. So her coroner would potentially clear up my view on Nyn a bit too.

Most seem to disagree with my opinion of Nyn, which is fine. I think the push on Dice was bad but Despo explained the potential thought process behind it pretty well I think. I can see how she could come to that conclusion based on her personal knowledge, but it's the conclusion that I disagree with. Or the implied conclusion anyway.

Hallia posts little content regardless of alignment. When she's scum she's more hyper and jokey and as a townie she's more subdued with light joke posts. She hasn't raised any alarms thus far so I'm fine with her.

And don't worry about it. Most people seem to disagree with my opinion on you but that doesn't phase me. ;)

Nyn

I know. There have been many games where I have also been just completely wrong about her, but there have been times where I was also correct initially and then sort of backed off because I out-thought myself in giving her the benefit of the doubt because it is her established meta.

Do me a fav - look back at her vote on Mish after Leelou started that wagon from a few RL days ago. Do you think her reason behind the vote was a good one? Do you think what she votes Mish over is actually scummy or do you think it was Hallia looking for a reason to vote someone?

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

I also don't think we agree on 85% of the thread, and even if some of our town reads align, it doesn't mean much since it would be fairly easy to fake reads on consensus townies. I know I haven't agreed with your scum list at the times you've posted it.

So tell me again why I should see you as obvtown?

I will pull up your read progression and compare it to mine so we can compare how each of us is seeing the game.

But before I do that, I want to address the bold really, really bad.

Because I have never had a confident Mafia read this game and I have never published any "scum list"

I had a list with a group of "nulls", but exactly 0 reds. I did not push any of them for anything other than more content.

But for the sake of addressing your imaginary argument, I will get my list of nulls and compare them to your reads as if they were my "Mafia leans".

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/89426-standard-hitchhikers-game-to-the-galaxy-day-one/?p=3255244

this is your "reads list" at #896

Fwiw AJ you look LOCK CLEAR now to me. I disagree with your suspicions on Verb and Nyn, but generally agree elsewhere.

You still gotta quit mis-using the conf-bias term lol. You use it to mean essentially OMGUS, when it's really when you come to any conclusion and then only see things that support that conclusion. Doesn't matter whether or not your scumread suspects you. Conf-bias is essentially tunnelvision.

And yes, Cory being unwilling to clear me does seem a little peculiar, but not worth fos'ing him for. His clearing of people before they should have been cleared, getting antsy about explaining his reads, and hedging his bets irt his read on me, all make it difficult for me to trust him this game. I don't really think he's the scummiest candidate today however, and if town he IS a great asset.

I'd say my lynch list prob looks something like:

Thane

Hallia

Leelou

RTE

BFG

Pray's last SOC post looked pretty good to me personally. Thoughts seemed genuine. I wouldn't lynch him today most likely.

My LOCK CLEARS:

Clov

Verbal

Nyn

AJ

anddddd that's prob it.

Everyone else in varying degrees of null

My last "villager post" is @ 813:

My 90% accurate villager list:

Tina
AJ

Thane

Nyn

My can't clear because too good but want to clear:

Clov

The amount of non-committal votes on Dice bothers me but I like a good portion of his wagon enough and he's been invisible to the point where I would not fight his lynch in any way

I would like more time this phase, though. We still have two days until deadline

So for villagers, we disagree on Thane, I am more confident on Tina, and the rest of your townreads are my townreads.

Which is funny you give me the "it's easy to fake townreads on consensus townies" considering the amount of grief I dealt with for my AJ townread despite AJ basically saying "hey, Cory actually does read me pretty darn well", but whatever for that little you-can't-win snip you made.

I think I asked you to tell me how you felt about Tina at some point and I'm not sure you did, if you didn't please do and if you did I will find it as I continue my reread.

Anyway, as for my purported "scum list", here is my reads post (again) with my nulls:

Meh, go big or go home

Still no active howlers, but I feel okay about my greens and great about my blues

Nulls are in no real order

Tina
Andrej

Thane
BFG

Verbal

Lazy

Leelou

Despo

Clov

Nynaeve

Pralaya

Mish

RTE
Hallia

Dice

Too many villagers not enough wolves ATM, which actually is a super good thing

Maybe I'm just the optimist this game and we are all town?

We can strike Dice off that list entirely, as I think we're both around the same place IRT him.

Pray has posted more but I haven't really looked into him deeply so whatever

We agree on RTE and Hallia

I have Leelou low on my perhaps too-optimistic "slight villa" chart and BFG a bit higher.

So I don't know what "you don't agree with"

but that's the closest thing I have in this game to my "scum list" and when Dice was on this list you actually went as far as to voting him here at 739:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/89426-standard-hitchhikers-game-to-the-galaxy-day-one/?p=3254514

Why did you tell him you should be blue then?

I'm just having difficulty with that Leelou. Okay, so you don't think people should have been able to read you by that point- I think that notion is wrong, but eh mebbe you really believe it. Why would you tell Cory to bump you up to blue then just a few posts before that?

I was purely spamming and made like 2 or 3 game comments. I am snarky and wanted to see what he would say. You may not like it, but it is what it is.

Okay.

[unvote]

[v]Dice[/v]

So, no, I don't really get what you are saying when you say "I disagree with your scum list" or really much of anything you said with this post

But it would seem we're both seeing a lot of the same things, though I disagree about BFG (with that said, I haven't really looked at her WoTs thoroughly so my read on her is currently up-in-the-air) and Thane (who I still feel very confidently is a villager)

And it is sort of humorous for you to attach the string-on of "but you're just faking reads to be consensus" when I've been accused of "giving reads too early" and have legitimately been a couple steps ahead of you on almost all things this game.

I will be around tonight to shoot the shit and I will see how you look during reread before I come to any major life decisions

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

Cory - do you think Clov is coming from a good place with his case?

I think he's coming from a pro-town mindset and might just be paranoid. It at least makes sense for him to make the arguments he's been making, unlike Des

I need to keep going on my reread before I really elaborate on Clov

Cory Caboose · May 24, 2014

I can't really reiterate how terrible that post looks after really sinking into it

AJ do you think I'm going crazy here irt Des? I don't think I'm going crazy

Leelou · May 24, 2014

leelou I thought i answered all clovs questions. let me know which ones you reckon i didnt but know that I dont care if you think I give the "right" answers

Sure, Dice. Here is the exchange:

I don't think the "Who's Online" list tells you literally nothing, but I actually don't have a problem with Dice suggesting it doesn't mean anything. It's not uncommon for me to leave it open while I do other things on the computer so I see where he's coming from.

That said, you're going to need to do better than just a claim if you want to convince me, Dice. I obviously disagree with your case on Leelou, and I don't like how it's more or less predicated on you ignoring/overlooking/not remembering others doing the EXACT same thing. If Leelou's suggestion implies that she had extra knowledge, what are your current thoughts on Andre and Verbal? Based on Mish's early posts, do you think Leelou was wrong to identify the possibility of a restriction?

Beyond that, who would you be interested exploring as the lynch candidate today? Barring a new case, I don't see Leelou being the lynch today - and I sure as hell don't think she ought to be. If you're town, show us what else you have.

Ajs posts this game say he is town to me. Verbal i have a town lean on. Im pretty certain with AJ not so much with verb. Thats mostly cause i can read AJ decently well but not verb. I also have Cory as town and as always the jury is out on Des just cause i have learnt not to trust him unless im the cop and have viewed him.

^^ is working and answering as i can.

depends clov as i said leelou is the one that sticks out to me. Id probably suggest Halia or if i wanted to do a Nolder then Pral. But i dont really have any good reasons for either.

as i said earlier I saw mish's posts as being excited about the theme. I never thought post restriction. In fact i find all the talk about post restrictions weird cause imo post restrictions are rare on DM so i dont get why suddenly everyones going on about post restrictions in this game.

Ajs posts this game say he is town to me. Verbal i have a town lean on. Im pretty certain with AJ not so much with verb. Thats mostly cause i can read AJ decently well but not verb. I also have Cory as town and as always the jury is out on Des just cause i have learnt not to trust him unless im the cop and have viewed him.

^^ is working and answering as i can.

depends clov as i said leelou is the one that sticks out to me. Id probably suggest Halia or if i wanted to do a Nolder then Pral. But i dont really have any good reasons for either.

Leelou is the one that sticks out as scum, you're pretty certain AJ is town, and you're not so certain Verbal is town. I can see both of those, and it's about where I am at this point, but I don't get why you feel so much better about them when they actually pointed out potential post restrictions BEFORE Leelou did...and she's your strongest scum read, mainly FOR that reason. How do you go from one extreme (AJ) to the other (Leelou) when he's "guilty" of the same offense?

as i said earlier I saw mish's posts as being excited about the theme. I never thought post restriction. In fact i find all the talk about post restrictions weird cause imo post restrictions are rare on DM so i dont get why suddenly everyones going on about post restrictions in this game.

I have two issues with this post:

1: The bold - That doesn't really answer what I asked. Look back at it now. Now that you know what it was based off of, do you think Leelou's observation is wrong, or was she just objectively wrong and there's no way she could have reasonably come to the conclusion she did without prior knowledge?

2: The red - I don't know. Ask your town reads.

You never addressed the last post here at all and you danced around answering Clov's questions.

Also, Hallia is the easiest lynch to push in almost any game because this is how she is. Any other options?

Andrej · May 24, 2014

I can't really reiterate how terrible that post looks after really sinking into it

AJ do you think I'm going crazy here irt Des? I don't think I'm going crazy

No, you're not crazy.

I also think we both know that Despot does a lot of what he calls others out on - while it doesn't make him look awesome I wouldn't point to it as a surefire way of pegging him as mafia the majority of the time.

Andrej · May 24, 2014

Also, Hallia is the easiest lynch to push in almost any game because this is how she is. Any other options?

I actually don't see Hallia get lynched that often.

She's pretty good at avoiding the rope, as either alignment.

[Standard] - Hitchhiker's Game to the Galaxy - Game Over

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