Choedan Kal and Callandor

[Orderofolde]

Given what we now know of the creation of Angreal and Sa'angreal requiring a seed which robs a channeler of their essence, weakening them considerably for a few months in the creation, how then was Callandor and the Choedan Kal formed?  Is it possible to imbue a Sa'angreal with the essence of more than one channeler?  If so, how does that work?  Men cannot link together but women can to a point.  A full circle would describe a Sa'angreal's power, but that is men and women working together as well as magnified.  If it is a circle's full essence absorbed, if a male is in control of the full circle and everyone has Angreal themselves they are drawing on...it gets confusing and even then the men are using both Saidin and Saidar.  Anyone have some thoughts?  I don't even want to get into how Callandor is a Sa'angreal for the TP and its creation.

[Orderofolde]

I've also wondered about all the Ter'angreal that Moirane brought out of the Waste in the wagons if maybe she didn't take some male Angreal to keep them out of play with the forsaken.  She knew a lot of what would happen between her test for accepted visions, visions in Rhuidean, and Min's viewings.  Maybe she recognized more than the stone doorframe ter'angreal. My other pondering concerns what Angreal the Forsaken knew were in the Great Holding in Tear but couldn't access.  They talked about the nasty surprises left behind, probably the only use of the killing wards we've seen apart from Rand hiding the access keys and leaving Callandor behind in the entire series.  I know that male Angreal and the like were hidden away from the male channelers during the breaking; we see the piece where it is entrusted to the Aiel just before the creation of the Eye of the World.  Interesting that they emptied their storerooms and sent away a lot of female Angreal as well.  Maybe all their strongest were already in use on the battlefield?  I wonder if RJ had some good notes on this...

[Sabio]

Yeah after the battle with Lanfear the wagons with all the Ter'angreal was sort of forgotten about.  Without Moraine I can't imagine the wagon still went to the White Tower.  Unless the Aiel brought it all back to Rhudiean I guess they just got stuffed in a building somewhere.

[Orderofolde]

Yeah after the battle with Lanfear the wagons with all the Ter'angreal was sort of forgotten about.  Without Moraine I can't imagine the wagon still went to the White Tower.  Unless the Aiel brought it all back to Rhudiean I guess they just got stuffed in a building somewhere

What Brandon said during the last two books was that they hadn't been forgotten about and to RAFO.  I think that they did get forgotten about, unless that is where Rand found the Ter'angreal seed for making an Angreal that he gave to Elayne.  He could have cinched it up with a "Luckily Moiraine had a good eye when packing those wagons" or something like that.  I wonder if Moiraine was supposed to find something within them but due to the book being so huge, it had to get dropped.

[Orderofolde]

Did I miss something in Fires of Heaven?  Moiraine sets out an Angreal bracelet on the wagon for Lanfear to use just before the scene at the docks goes down?  And this is not the same bracelet that Moiraine comes away from the Finns with?  I remember some mention that it wasn't the same as hers is almost as strong to be a Sa'angreal now?  I wonder why the first one never made it into the WOT Wiki.  Moiraine grapples it away from Lanfear as they vanished into the doorway Ter'angreal.  I guess that it is proof that Moiraine found at least one Angreal in Rhuidean she brought back in the wagons.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just a note on the creation of Angreal etc... I would say that the angreal's strength isn't proportionate to the strength needed to create it. It wouldn't be a 1:1 ratio. 

 

Obviously, I would think that you need to be stronger - have a circle etc... to create stronger angreal/sa'angreal but it would be impossible to create the Chodean Kal if it were a 1:1 ratio. The Chodean Kal holds more power than most of the channelers in the world combined. 

 

Considering something like Callandor and similar sa'angreal were apparently 'mass manufactured' in the War of Power, I would say that the power required to create an angreal would be anywhere between 1:10 - 1:100. 

 

But really, we literally only have that one passage from Rand that tells us how angreal are created, so unless there is more in the encyclopaedia to come, it's anyone's guess. 

[DemandredFO]

Didn't Lews Therin use Callandor to place the seals. If so, then maybe it was made a Sa'angreal by the DO, like Voldemort made Harry a Horcrux. Otherwise I have no idea unless the Light had a Verin in the AOL, someone who did unspeakable evil but for literally the greater good.

As regards angreal, Sa'ngreal, most of that wouldn't have been known anyway I think since RJ wanted to leave loose ends. As for the lost wagons, didn't Nyneave get her jewelry from there and the stuff Elayne was looking at. In large measure, any other purpose they had, probably wasn't in the notes and will never be known

[Magicana]

Didn't Lews Therin use Callandor to place the seals. If so, then maybe it was made a Sa'angreal by the DO, like Voldemort made Harry a Horcrux. Otherwise I have no idea unless the Light had a Verin in the AOL, someone who did unspeakable evil but for literally the greater good.

As regards angreal, Sa'ngreal, most of that wouldn't have been known anyway I think since RJ wanted to leave loose ends. As for the lost wagons, didn't Nyneave get her jewelry from there and the stuff Elayne was looking at. In large measure, any other purpose they had, probably wasn't in the notes and will never be known

 

LTT didn't have Callandor - I shudder to think what he would have done with it if he did.

 

Nynaeve and Elayne got their angreal/ter'angreal from the cache in Ebou Dar.

[damandred]

Were not the Choedan Kal made by a faction of the light that didnt follow LTT? I have a vague memory of reading that they were made to challange the DO directly and LTT was opposed to it. Not that that has any relevence on the question of how they were made, if i had to guess i would say it required the power of thousands of channelers. As for the making of Callandor you would think someone who could channel the TP would have to of been involved, though i have no clue how that could be. Maybe just a understanding of it was needed?

[Magicana]

Were not the Choedan Kal made by a faction of the light that didnt follow LTT? I have a vague memory of reading that they were made to challange the DO directly and LTT was opposed to it. Not that that has any relevence on the question of how they were made, if i had to guess i would say it required the power of thousands of channelers. As for the making of Callandor you would think someone who could channel the TP would have to of been involved, though i have no clue how that could be. Maybe just a understanding of it was needed?

 

The first part of your question is in the Strike at Shayol Ghul (Quoted below). My understanding of Callandor is that its flaw was accidental, and that there were no TP channelers involved in its construction (Evidence: <30 people had access to the TP, 13 of them were sealed at Shayol Ghul, and the rest were either dead or being hunted).

 

 

 

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured. 

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose? 

 

The hall of the Servants quickly divided into two camps, and those who favored one plan derided the other. 

 

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called "the Fateful Concord," though it was doubtful that this was the name it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward.

 

Just as the paired sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal (apparently because of a danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter'angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power. 

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the "Fateful Concord," including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle. Tempers and passions rose, and an apparently unprecedented division along male-female lines began to develop among the Aes Sedai in general, if not within the Hall itself. Finally the Hall decided to continue with Latra Posae's plan, and her people began working to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory. 

 

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael's advance, armies commanded by Demandred and Bel'al struck heavily. At this point in the war, halting an advance by the Shadow was the best that could be hoped for; no conquered territory had been regained in the past two years. In intense and bloody fighting, these two drives were barely contained, but Demandred and Bel'al kept the pressure on. Sammael began a new offensive, also scarcely held, and there is mention of heavy military activity elsewhere. Apparently both of the great sa'angreal were threatened by these offensives; in fact, it was possible that they were the target. Massive riots swept a number of cities still held by the Light and the "re-emergence of the peace faction" is mentioned, apparently a group demanding negotiations with the Forsaken. The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months. With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events, and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

[damandred]

 

 

Were not the Choedan Kal made by a faction of the light that didnt follow LTT? I have a vague memory of reading that they were made to challange the DO directly and LTT was opposed to it. Not that that has any relevence on the question of how they were made, if i had to guess i would say it required the power of thousands of channelers. As for the making of Callandor you would think someone who could channel the TP would have to of been involved, though i have no clue how that could be. Maybe just a understanding of it was needed?

The first part of your question is in the Strike at Shayol Ghul (Quoted below). My understanding of Callandor is that its flaw was accidental, and that there were no TP channelers involved in its construction (Evidence: <30 people had access to the TP, 13 of them were sealed at Shayol Ghul, and the rest were either dead or being hunted).

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

The hall of the Servants quickly divided into two camps, and those who favored one plan derided the other.

 

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called "the Fateful Concord," though it was doubtful that this was the name it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward.

 

Just as the paired sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal (apparently because of a danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter'angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the "Fateful Concord," including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle. Tempers and passions rose, and an apparently unprecedented division along male-female lines began to develop among the Aes Sedai in general, if not within the Hall itself. Finally the Hall decided to continue with Latra Posae's plan, and her people began working to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory.

 

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael's advance, armies commanded by Demandred and Bel'al struck heavily. At this point in the war, halting an advance by the Shadow was the best that could be hoped for; no conquered territory had been regained in the past two years. In intense and bloody fighting, these two drives were barely contained, but Demandred and Bel'al kept the pressure on. Sammael began a new offensive, also scarcely held, and there is mention of heavy military activity elsewhere. Apparently both of the great sa'angreal were threatened by these offensives; in fact, it was possible that they were the target. Massive riots swept a number of cities still held by the Light and the "re-emergence of the peace faction" is mentioned, apparently a group demanding negotiations with the Forsaken. The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months. With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events, and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

Thanks for that, that was the passage i was thinking of in regard to the Choedan Kal. As for Callandor if it was a accident i wonder how it was found to be able to channel the TP, im guessing that was what Min discovered in the writtings about it?

[udbabor520]

Given what we now know of the creation of Angreal and Sa'angreal requiring a seed which robs a channeler of their essence, weakening them considerably for a few months in the creation, how then was Callandor and the Choedan Kal formed?

 

Is this coming from Sanderson or Jordan?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

 

 

Were not the Choedan Kal made by a faction of the light that didnt follow LTT? I have a vague memory of reading that they were made to challange the DO directly and LTT was opposed to it. Not that that has any relevence on the question of how they were made, if i had to guess i would say it required the power of thousands of channelers. As for the making of Callandor you would think someone who could channel the TP would have to of been involved, though i have no clue how that could be. Maybe just a understanding of it was needed?

The first part of your question is in the Strike at Shayol Ghul (Quoted below). My understanding of Callandor is that its flaw was accidental, and that there were no TP channelers involved in its construction (Evidence: <30 people had access to the TP, 13 of them were sealed at Shayol Ghul, and the rest were either dead or being hunted).

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

The hall of the Servants quickly divided into two camps, and those who favored one plan derided the other.

 

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called "the Fateful Concord," though it was doubtful that this was the name it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward.

 

Just as the paired sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal (apparently because of a danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter'angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the "Fateful Concord," including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle. Tempers and passions rose, and an apparently unprecedented division along male-female lines began to develop among the Aes Sedai in general, if not within the Hall itself. Finally the Hall decided to continue with Latra Posae's plan, and her people began working to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory.

 

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael's advance, armies commanded by Demandred and Bel'al struck heavily. At this point in the war, halting an advance by the Shadow was the best that could be hoped for; no conquered territory had been regained in the past two years. In intense and bloody fighting, these two drives were barely contained, but Demandred and Bel'al kept the pressure on. Sammael began a new offensive, also scarcely held, and there is mention of heavy military activity elsewhere. Apparently both of the great sa'angreal were threatened by these offensives; in fact, it was possible that they were the target. Massive riots swept a number of cities still held by the Light and the "re-emergence of the peace faction" is mentioned, apparently a group demanding negotiations with the Forsaken. The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months. With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events, and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

Thanks for that, that was the passage i was thinking of in regard to the Choedan Kal. As for Callandor if it was a accident i wonder how it was found to be able to channel the TP, im guessing that was what Min discovered in the writtings about it?

 

 

 

There aren't really any answers to be had, but it's not such an unbelievable bug in its design. It effectively amounts to using Callandor to enhance all male channeling rather than restricting it to male use of the OP. Those sorts of mistakes/that kind of neglect isn't uncommon, especially if the person doing the creating isn't aware of the need for the restriction or is rushed. Or, you know, maybe an unknown Chosen infiltrated the process and was, for some reason, unable to reap the rewards of his labour.

[Orderofolde]

 

Given what we now know of the creation of Angreal and Sa'angreal requiring a seed which robs a channeler of their essence, weakening them considerably for a few months in the creation, how then was Callandor and the Choedan Kal formed?

 

Is this coming from Sanderson or Jordan?

 

Good question.  If RJ, then it's RJ, if Brandon, then from the notes?

[damandred]

 

 

 

 

Were not the Choedan Kal made by a faction of the light that didnt follow LTT? I have a vague memory of reading that they were made to challange the DO directly and LTT was opposed to it. Not that that has any relevence on the question of how they were made, if i had to guess i would say it required the power of thousands of channelers. As for the making of Callandor you would think someone who could channel the TP would have to of been involved, though i have no clue how that could be. Maybe just a understanding of it was needed?

The first part of your question is in the Strike at Shayol Ghul (Quoted below). My understanding of Callandor is that its flaw was accidental, and that there were no TP channelers involved in its construction (Evidence: <30 people had access to the TP, 13 of them were sealed at Shayol Ghul, and the rest were either dead or being hunted).

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal. This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would. Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances. Against that was the certainty, according to the plan's supporters, that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

The hall of the Servants quickly divided into two camps, and those who favored one plan derided the other.

 

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called "the Fateful Concord," though it was doubtful that this was the name it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward.

 

Just as the paired sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal (apparently because of a danger of "uncontrolled resonances during the final stages," whatever that means), and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter'angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed (its very existence had been a secret at the highest levels all along) so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the "Fateful Concord," including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle. Tempers and passions rose, and an apparently unprecedented division along male-female lines began to develop among the Aes Sedai in general, if not within the Hall itself. Finally the Hall decided to continue with Latra Posae's plan, and her people began working to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory.

 

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael's advance, armies commanded by Demandred and Bel'al struck heavily. At this point in the war, halting an advance by the Shadow was the best that could be hoped for; no conquered territory had been regained in the past two years. In intense and bloody fighting, these two drives were barely contained, but Demandred and Bel'al kept the pressure on. Sammael began a new offensive, also scarcely held, and there is mention of heavy military activity elsewhere. Apparently both of the great sa'angreal were threatened by these offensives; in fact, it was possible that they were the target. Massive riots swept a number of cities still held by the Light and the "re-emergence of the peace faction" is mentioned, apparently a group demanding negotiations with the Forsaken. The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months. With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events, and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

Thanks for that, that was the passage i was thinking of in regard to the Choedan Kal. As for Callandor if it was a accident i wonder how it was found to be able to channel the TP, im guessing that was what Min discovered in the writtings about it?

There aren't really any answers to be had, but it's not such an unbelievable bug in its design. It effectively amounts to using Callandor to enhance all male channeling rather than restricting it to male use of the OP. Those sorts of mistakes/that kind of neglect isn't uncommon, especially if the person doing the creating isn't aware of the need for the restriction or is rushed. Or, you know, maybe an unknown Chosen infiltrated the process and was, for some reason, unable to reap the rewards of his labour.

I dont think a chosen could of infiltrated, without the knowledge of the makers. it has me thinking, was it really a accidental flaw or a purposly made flaw by thoughs who had foreseen the need of the dragon, akin to the AS who made the eye of the world. It seems to me either answer still leaves questions; ie, if accidental how did they know it channeled the TP, having no one to test it who had access to it. And if it was on purpose how did they know HOW to make it, unless it was all done on a theory.

It also for me throws up more questions about the people who put Callandor in the stone and wrote the prophercies. Did they know exactly how significant Callandor would be? Did they foresee Min finding the answers, and Ishamael (or anyone else) not? It also, to me, has shades of the Nakomi question, these people had so much knowledge of the future, could they have had, a direct influance on it, possibly with the help of the Jenn WO/DW.

[Sabio]

It also could be it was made for using the TP before they truly understood what the TP was.  It might of been made at the time the TP was thought to be this new grand power that would allow Aes Sedai to create bigger and better stuff.

[DemandredFO]

I remember in tSR when Rand saw the history of the Aiel, AS asks another, what is that doing here, pointing to Callandor. Clearly they knew something or the scorn was for it being the Dragon's weapon. If they did make Callandor a TP sa'angreal before they understood the True Power, the making must've been the highest classified because if it were possible to make TP sa'angreal, I think Ishamael would have made one.

[damandred]

thats assuming he had the talent to make one, which not everyone has. If memory serves it was those same AS that made the Eye of the World, though i dont know how Callandor went from them to the stone, which wasnt yet built, seeing as they all died making the Eye.

[Sabio]

Demandred is right, not every Aes Sedai had the talent to make sa'angreal. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Re: Callandor. 

 

It is as Magicana said, simply a flaw in design by accident. I know this is a cop-out, but the most likely cause is the Pattern guiding whoever created Callandor to accidentally open it to the TP as well. I doubt anyone was actually aware of it. Now, the question of HOW someone would manage to create a TP sa'angreal is a whole other question. However, since we don't really know how normal sa'angreal are created - I mean, how they are truly created, Rand only said to Elayne that a seed was necessary and it would weaken the creator for a while, not exactly what was involved in the process - it leaves a lot of room for logical possibilities. 

 

Also, in regards to Rand's tSR vision of Callandor and the Breaking. At the time, several prophecies and fortellings were made about Callandor's importance in the next Age. The Aes Sedai who were transferring it most likely didn't know WHY it was important, they were only going off the Fortellings and prophecies made after the bore had been sealed. The prophecies had to be made after to protect the world. If Callandor was brought to Lews Therin's attention as important and not just another sa'angreal, as Magicana said, the possibilities are frightening. So this explains why the prophecies were made AFTER the sealing in the Breaking. 

 

Which brings me to Damandred's question about how they came to find out about it in the end. 

 

There are several factors involved. First and most importantly is the Karatheon Cycle and prophecies made in the Breaking that made the Aes Sedai take an active interest in securing Callandor. Hence the prophecies about the Dragon Reborn drawing Callandor from the Stone etc... Now Callandor was not simply another mass manufactured sa'angreal like it was in the WoP. It's importance was made known. 

 

Everyone knew Callandor was important. The early Aes Sedai couldn't study it because it was locked away until the Dragon Reborn took it. (I am assuming this was pertinent to the Pattern and the prophecies, so that nobody discovered its true nature until the very end. If people had known it was a TP sa'angreal before it was too late, every darkfriend in the world would be aimed at Callandor and like Rand would never have even used it in the first place.) The 'modern' Aes Sedai didn't have the inclination nor the capability to study it beyond the fact it was a male sa'angreal. For 3000 years, all Callandor was was an extremely powerful sa'angreal, over that period of time, people stop thinking about other possibilities. 

 

This is where Min and Cadsuane were of vital importance. Perhaps it was Min's greatest purpose in the Pattern, and the reason why she has Viewings. As was Rand's use to reveal the flaws, particularly the caveat that the Dragon Reborn MUST be the one to 'activate' it. Cadsuane was smart enough to question - So Cadsuane figures out the first flaw - that it has no buffer and the only safe way to use it is with 2 women. Thus Min's viewings and studies come into play. She is not Aes Sedai and is in many ways not constricted by the dogma of what is or isn't impossible. So when she has viewings about a Darkness about Callandor - the Onyx hand etc... she is set upon the path looking into the Shadow (although she thinks it is a trap used against him, not that she guesses it's a TP sa'angreal). 

 

Rand's connection to Ishamael and use of the TP then becomes a vital part of the Pattern's plan. I believe a mixture of the two theories about how Rand gained access. I believe that it came from his link with Ishamael, as the TP can't be granted at a whim, the DO needs to do it at Shayol Ghul, however, the DO knew, and used the connection to force him to use the TP. So even Rand's connection to Ishamael and Semirhage's torture was a part of the Pattern. It revealed to Min and Cadsuane the existence of the True Power and Rand's ability to use it. 

 

aMoL is silent on how they eventually came to the conclusion, but I believe it was a result of the above events and information being put together by Min and Cadsuane that brought them to this conclusion - just as the Pattern had intended it to be. At the very precipice of the Last Battle, so the information did not have time to spread to the Shadow or others, allowing Rand to do what he did and trick Ishamael into his trap. 

[damandred]

this makes sense, just been through the karaethon cycle to see if i could find anything wrong with it. I couldnt, so ill accept this as being correct.

[wotfan4472]

Good job Barid!! There is one question though that I could never work out.........how did Lews Therin wipe out Ishamael's army at Paaran Disen??? Ishamael was the only one to escape. How could this have happened without Callandor??

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Good job Barid!! There is one question though that I could never work out.........how did Lews Therin wipe out Ishamael's army at Paaran Disen??? Ishamael was the only one to escape. How could this have happened without Callandor??

 

 

Impossible to answer. We have virtually no details about the battle fought there. But ask yourself how Hannibal was able to wipe out the Roman horde at Cannae without cannons, and you'll likely have a partial answer to your question.

[Sabio]

Also from the sound of it Ishy was more of a leader and not a general type, where LTT was a pretty good general.  So its possible LTT used tactics where Ishy might of just tried the brute force rush in approach and possibly gotten surrounded.  According to the big White Book Ishy was the shadow's top captain general despite the fact he never held a direct field command.  So it might of been like Dwight D Eisnhower type thing were he was the top man because he knew how to direct people and get people to work towards the overall goal but might not of been very good with the actual moving of armies and such.  I would think with all the Forsaken plotting against each other it would take a very skilled diplomat to actually get them to focus on the enemy and not just march their armies against each other,

[Orderofolde]

That is a good way of explaining it.  And as a strategist and not a general, he wouldn't have been anywhere near the fighting, so he would have been able to escape.