why wasn't lanfear spared?

[Luckers]

You don't seem to be getting it and tbh I am tired of arguing the point.

 

Siuan - Less than 1/2 their old strength

 

Leane - Less than 1/2 their old strength

 

Lanfear - NOT less than 1/2 her old strength.

 

Kobra_khan, you've missed the point entirely.

 

Suine and Leane have not lost half their total strength. If they had, they would be below cut off strength of becoming Aes Sedai, and they arn't.

 

You don't seem to get the fact that Aes Sedai judge strength based within the range of strength included in the Aes Sedai hierarchy. That means limited by both a minimum and a maximum strength. The degree to which Suine and Leane react to their strength is incredibly emphasized by the impact it has on their social standing. INCREDIBLY EMPHASIZED. I don't know how i can stress that enough. Aes Sedai live by this.

 

Moreover, given that we do not know the degree to which one strength defers to another, or where the Aes Sedai average sits in that bell curve, making a qualitative statement about the degree to which Suine and Leane have lost strength is going to be inherently flawd. For all we know 90% of Aes Sedai sit on the strength 33. If Suine and Leane got bumped down to 32 and 31 respectively, then that would explain their comments... more then explain it.

 

Moreover, there is nothing to say that the loss is a percentage of the channelers original strength, or a set amount for ALL women. Indeed, the amount of evidence suggesting Lanfear was severed IS evidence for this.

 

So, say they all lose whats equal to 10 units of strength... That takes Suine from 40, to 30, and represents a dramatic loss in social standing, given the social strata is established between around 20 and 40 (again, i stress these numbers are purerly made up based VERY losely on the comparisons between Moiraine and women of increasing strength.)

 

They are less than 1/2 of what they were that is evident in that they wish to be 1/2 as powerful as they were. You can't argue that particular point because it is clear when they say it.

 

I love when people say that to me. Although how anyone could miss the fact that that entire paragraph is about their social standing i dont know. When they speak of half of what they were they are speaking in reference to the range of strength represented in Salidar, and furthermore the degree of their fall in accentuated by the degree that loss in power affects their social standing. A loss of 1 unit of strength represent a loss of 5 units of social standing... and thats assuming that the Aes Sedai bell curve is exactly equal. What if the Aes Sedai average is 38 units of strength?

 

Does that quantify as an argument?

 

Mind explaining that one a little better? I'm having just a slight problem understanding exactly what your trying to say. It seems like your saying that they both lost social standing and because they lost social status they have to defer to those that are now stronger than them even though there is a limited range of Aes Sedai strength. Which I don't think could be right because you seem to be refuting your own argument in that statement by saying that they judge social standing by the power and that the loss of power in them both was similar because they lost the same amount of strength.

 

Social standing is done by strength in the power. They lost strength in the power. The degree that one strength level defers to another is established by the limited range of strengths represented in the Aes Sedai order. The loss of a little strength is equal to the loss of a lot of social standing.

 

Also from the quote I gave it is implied that they discussed what their relative loss in strength was and that they were both below 1/2 what they used to be

 

No, it isn't. This is what they state.

 

1. A majority of the women in salidar stand above them now. No indication of how far above them. Furthermore it implies that there are those in salidar that stand below them.

 

2. They ask for half of what they were, or even just a third, and imply that the recovery of such would DRAMATICALLY improve their situation. A) this is not saying they lost half their strength, it is saying they want half of what they lost back. B)This shows that a limited increase in strength would result in a dramatic increase in standing.

 

1)You cannot say someone is "as strong as they can get" There is always the chance that someone will be born stronger than that person. So it is only assumption that someone believes that a person is the strongest there can be there can be no definite proof. They may be the strongest known but not the strongest that can be. Lanfear says this because she has been the strongest born during her lifetime not because she thinks she is the strongest she can be. Your reading too much into it she's shocked that someone is stronger than what she used to be that's it and your trying to build up an argument that there is a maximum amount of the OP that someone can channel.

 

Im sorry... you essentially just dismissed written evidence based on your own personal opinion of how strength systems work. I'm not reading into Lanfears comments, I'm reading them. Period.

 

You asked for quotes refering to a maximum strength. All of those 'no, that can't be, i don't like it' doesn't really matter, we can only base our deductions on the information RJ gives us. Trust me when i say i take factual evidence over your opinions.

 

2) Aes Sedai make alot of claims that fail to be substantiated. They do not necessarily have to lie it is just what they believe to be the truth. I'm suprised you didn't see the flaw in that argument before you put it out there.

 

I'm sorry... what is the relevance of that? The Aes Sedai was not claiming this as a factual truth, she put it out there as a theory. The point in that is why would an Aes Sedai say this, ESPECIALLY given the recent influx of increasingly stronger women unless she had some basis for knowing that there was a cut off strength. It is indicative of knowledge indicating a cut off strength existing, and having been known to Aes Sedai at one stage.

 

As it is the quote I provided that says even at 1/2 of what their original strengths were there would still be a lot of people stronger than them and most at least their equals. That implies that they are less than half what they used to be which is a dramatic loss of strength.

 

No. It's a dramatic loss in social standing. Sorry buddy.

 

Please tell me your joking about the her "dividing her flows argument". Egwene can barely channel and she can split her flows over 12 different ways, I think it was 14 in KoD which shows that it is not your strength that allows you to divide your flows but skill in the OP.

 

Have you read the books?

 

I'm sorry, that was harsh, but dexterity and the ability to devide flows with the power comes with increased strength. The majority of Aes Sedai can barely manage 3. This is stated as one of the hardest things to do. Moiraine and Suine could manage 4. The wonder girls increase steadily, starting at 4, going to 6, and then we dont see again until Egwene manages 14. Rand starts off at 12, and you can be sure thats increased.

 

The Egwene argument is invalid. Because of the Forkroot she can only handly small amounts of the power, but that doesn't change her innate ability.

 

The fact is, though, that Leane can still channel to an incredibly effective degree, as shown in KoD. Stepping aside from from the over-dramatisation her decrease in social standing had amongst the Aes Sedai, she is still a potent and effective channeler.

 

I'm not saying she wasn't severed I am just saying that IF she were severed she wouldn't most likely have been healed by a woman.

 

I'm sorry... why are you saying that? At that stage men healing the ability was unknown. Moreover it causes no decrease at all.

 

Quite simply, the degree to which Suine and Leane lost strength is over-dramatized. A like loss in Lanfear would not have been a large decrese overall.

 

Forgive me if ive been overly harsh, but i dislike it when people tell me what i can and cannot argue. I get that there is alternative explanations (none as strong, to my mind, in any case, but whatever), but given the other evidence suggesting stilling, and the fact that this explanation does not have any logic holes that i cannot explain, i must conclude that this is right.

[kobra_khan69]

You don't seem to be getting it and tbh I am tired of arguing the point.

 

Siuan - Less than 1/2 their old strength

 

Leane - Less than 1/2 their old strength

 

Lanfear - NOT less than 1/2 her old strength.

 

Kobra_khan' date=' you've missed the point entirely.

 

Suine and Leane have not lost half their total strength. If they had, they would be below cut off strength of becoming Aes Sedai, and they arn't.[/quote']

 

 

Further on you refuted your own arguement.

 

You don't seem to get the fact that Aes Sedai judge strength based within the range of strength included in the Aes Sedai hierarchy. That means limited by both a minimum and a maximum strength. The degree to which Suine and Leane react to their strength is incredibly emphasized by the impact it has on their social standing. INCREDIBLY EMPHASIZED. I don't know how i can stress that enough. Aes Sedai live by this.

 

Moreover, given that we do not know the degree to which one strength defers to another, or where the Aes Sedai average sits in that bell curve, making a qualitative statement about the degree to which Suine and Leane have lost strength is going to be inherently flawd. For all we know 90% of Aes Sedai sit on the strength 33. If Suine and Leane got bumped down to 32 and 31 respectively, then that would explain their comments... more then explain it.

 

Your apparently not going to listen to what I have to say and your not grasping what they said in the book in the same way I did. I honestly don't feel like arguing about this right now but I don't want your comments to go unanswered so I will do my best to answer them for now. They may judge their social status by strength in the Power but that doesn't mean thats ALL they're talking about in this excerpt. I'm going to quote it one more time and hopefully you will see what I am talking about.

 

Paperback - Lord of Chaos: To Heal Again Page 603

Leane shook her head. "Noone has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others would see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

 

Its a given that in that chapter they are talking about how their words will be weighed now by their strength and not on merit alone but essentially they are just wanting to be able to channel as much as they could once.

 

 

Moreover, there is nothing to say that the loss is a percentage of the channelers original strength, or a set amount for ALL women. Indeed, the amount of evidence suggesting Lanfear was severed IS evidence for this.

 

So, say they all lose whats equal to 10 units of strength... That takes Suine from 40, to 30, and represents a dramatic loss in social standing, given the social strata is established between around 20 and 40 (again, i stress these numbers are purerly made up based VERY losely on the comparisons between Moiraine and women of increasing strength.)

 

I already conceded this point read before you try to call me to task on something old please, btw this is where you refuted your own arguement.

 

They are less than 1/2 of what they were that is evident in that they wish to be 1/2 as powerful as they were. You can't argue that particular point because it is clear when they say it.

 

I love when people say that to me. Although how anyone could miss the fact that that entire paragraph is about their social standing i dont know. When they speak of half of what they were they are speaking in reference to the range of strength represented in Salidar, and furthermore the degree of their fall in accentuated by the degree that loss in power affects their social standing. A loss of 1 unit of strength represent a loss of 5 units of social standing... and thats assuming that the Aes Sedai bell curve is exactly equal. What if the Aes Sedai average is 38 units of strength?

 

Does that quantify as an argument?

 

So your saying 1 point of strength = 5 points of standing.

 

Okay so that would be a relevance issue anyway. For her to have lost 1/2 of her social standing it would still need to be less than 1/2 what she was.

 

She was 40 in power = 200 in social standing

40-10 = 200 - 50

30 = 150 Is 150 less than 1/2 of her social standing BEFORE she was stilled?

That seems to be the point you were trying to make if I am wrong please correct me. <--- Edited in after a bit so some points may lose standing because I just thought of it.

 

 

 

I already explained this I think or maybe I just thought about it. It doesn't matter though because you most likely won't come around to my way of thinking and I definitely won't come around to yours.

 

Why would they be speaking of the range of the strength represented in Salidar? they are pleading with Nynaeve to try healing them again so they can become 1/2 as powerful in the OP as they were before they were stilled. Its been stated before that the loss of a woman channeling MAY be a constant variable not a percentage and I am starting to think that that may be right but what your saying is that Siuan and Leane aren't below 1/2 of what their previous strength was and thats completely off the mark IMHO.

 

Mind explaining that one a little better? I'm having just a slight problem understanding exactly what your trying to say. It seems like your saying that they both lost social standing and because they lost social status they have to defer to those that are now stronger than them even though there is a limited range of Aes Sedai strength. Which I don't think could be right because you seem to be refuting your own argument in that statement by saying that they judge social standing by the power and that the loss of power in them both was similar because they lost the same amount of strength.

 

Social standing is done by strength in the power. They lost strength in the power. The degree that one strength level defers to another is established by the limited range of strengths represented in the Aes Sedai order. The loss of a little strength is equal to the loss of a lot of social standing.

 

Point being? They also say that they are little better than servants to those higher than them in the power, which most are. Also I addressed this a few seconds ago.

 

Also from the quote I gave it is implied that they discussed what their relative loss in strength was and that they were both below 1/2 what they used to be

 

No, it isn't. This is what they state.

 

1. A majority of the women in salidar stand above them now. No indication of how far above them. Furthermore it implies that there are those in salidar that stand below them.

 

Well I hope so, the weakest of novices should be below them. Just because they are now dramatically weaker doesn't mean that they are the weakest.

 

2. They ask for half of what they were, or even just a third, and imply that the recovery of such would DRAMATICALLY improve their situation. A) this is not saying they lost half their strength, it is saying they want half of what they lost back. B)This shows that a limited increase in strength would result in a dramatic increase in standing.

 

Okay thats kind of stupid or maybe I am not grasping the complexities at which your mind is working.

A) Gives an argument for itself.

B) Okay so the fact that they are less than half of what they were only accentuates the fact that if they WERE to gain back more of their power they would be in a better position to guide the flow of events.

 

 

1)You cannot say someone is "as strong as they can get" There is always the chance that someone will be born stronger than that person. So it is only assumption that someone believes that a person is the strongest there can be there can be no definite proof. They may be the strongest known but not the strongest that can be. Lanfear says this because she has been the strongest born during her lifetime not because she thinks she is the strongest she can be. Your reading too much into it she's shocked that someone is stronger than what she used to be that's it and your trying to build up an argument that there is a maximum amount of the OP that someone can channel.

 

Im sorry... you essentially just dismissed written evidence based on your own personal opinion of how strength systems work. I'm not reading into Lanfears comments, I'm reading them. Period.

 

You asked for quotes refering to a maximum strength. All of those 'no, that can't be, i don't like it' doesn't really matter, we can only base our deductions on the information RJ gives us. Trust me when i say i take factual evidence over your opinions.

 

 

Please share the factual evidence and I will concede the point, until then it is only your opinion such as it is mine. Don't insult me because you disagree with me.

 

2) Aes Sedai make alot of claims that fail to be substantiated. They do not necessarily have to lie it is just what they believe to be the truth. I'm suprised you didn't see the flaw in that argument before you put it out there.

 

I'm sorry... what is the relevance of that? The Aes Sedai was not claiming this as a factual truth, she put it out there as a theory. The point in that is why would an Aes Sedai say this, ESPECIALLY given the recent influx of increasingly stronger women unless she had some basis for knowing that there was a cut off strength. It is indicative of knowledge indicating a cut off strength existing, and having been known to Aes Sedai at one stage.

 

 

Have the proof? And no it doesn't its just like what you said, it's a theory. She most likely says this because of the vast strength that the woman will be able to channel not because it is based on something factual. This is my opinion of course and I don't feel like arguing over it atm.

 

 

 

 

As it is the quote I provided that says even at 1/2 of what their original strengths were there would still be a lot of people stronger than them and most at least their equals. That implies that they are less than half what they used to be which is a dramatic loss of strength.

 

No. It's a dramatic loss in social standing. Sorry buddy.

 

 

 

Was it not you who just provided the Aes Sedai One Power/social standing formula of 1 OP = 5 Social? I assume you meant to say something else of course.

 

 

 

Please tell me your joking about the her "dividing her flows argument". Egwene can barely channel and she can split her flows over 12 different ways, I think it was 14 in KoD which shows that it is not your strength that allows you to divide your flows but skill in the OP.

 

Have you read the books?

 

I'm sorry, that was harsh, but dexterity and the ability to devide flows with the power comes with increased strength. The majority of Aes Sedai can barely manage 3. This is stated as one of the hardest things to do. Moiraine and Suine could manage 4. The wonder girls increase steadily, starting at 4, going to 6, and then we dont see again until Egwene manages 14. Rand starts off at 12, and you can be sure thats increased.

 

The Egwene argument is invalid. Because of the Forkroot she can only handly small amounts of the power, but that doesn't change her innate ability.

 

The fact is, though, that Leane can still channel to an incredibly effective degree, as shown in KoD. Stepping aside from from the over-dramatisation her decrease in social standing had amongst the Aes Sedai, she is still a potent and effective channeler.

 

 

 

If you thought it was harsh you wouldn't have been rude and left it in there. Got any actual hard evidence for this claim? The majority of Aes Sedai are fools who think they know everything and so are afraid to try new things. Just because it is hard doesn't mean that it is limited to the strong it just means that it will take more work for someone who is weak to get as good as someone who is stronger, just like any skill, it needs to be honed. My opinion of course as it is yours that you have to be strong to do it.

 

Who ever said Leane couldn't channel to an incredibly effective degree?

 

 

 

I'm not saying she wasn't severed I am just saying that IF she were severed she wouldn't most likely have been healed by a woman.

 

I'm sorry... why are you saying that? At that stage men healing the ability was unknown. Moreover it causes no decrease at all.

 

Quite simply, the degree to which Suine and Leane lost strength is over-dramatized. A like loss in Lanfear would not have been a large decrese overall.

 

Forgive me if ive been overly harsh, but i dislike it when people tell me what i can and cannot argue. I get that there is alternative explanations (none as strong, to my mind, in any case, but whatever), but given the other evidence suggesting stilling, and the fact that this explanation does not have any logic holes that i cannot explain, i must conclude that this is right.

 

You just gave me your opinions. I'm tired of arguing opinions so bring some quotes to the table I'm through with this argument. I have 4 tests tomorrow I have to get some rest and I am not going to take up my time trying to convince someone who will not budge that he's wrong and I am right when both of our opinions are just that OPINIONS.

 

I'm going to browse a bit and wee whats happening around the forum if I come back to find quotes thats great if I don't I don't care about that either it's your choice.

[Gentled Ben]

*pulls up a chair*

Pssst...Robert! Go make some popcorn! :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... I'm cooking steaks for this.

 

Its funny too ... its actually a relatively minor point ... and one that will be thoroughly solved in KoD.

 

"Hey Moiraine, lets get out of here before I have to gouge out my other eye," Mat said.

 

"OK, Mat, sorry you had to go through all this," Moiraine stood, gathering herself.

 

Mat grunted. "Yeah, speaking of which, why didn't you just blast your way out?"

 

Moiraine sighed. "I can't channel anymore. You know, the whole doorway melting into slag? Jeez why do you think Lan thought I was dead?"

 

Thom coughed. "Well ... you look good! Really young and all."

 

Mat smacked Thom in the back of the head. "Shut up, Thom, lets get her out of here. You can compliment her later."

[Arath Faringal]

Jumping back into long forgotten stuff ...

 

I always thought that both Lanfear and Moiraine were burned out by passing through the arch, and when they got to the other side, it was a standard 'finn meeting. Both were seperated, guided to the main room and given three wishes. Moiraine, with her foreknowledge of what was going down, knows that the archway is done for. She negotiates her deal, which may have been to stay with the 'finns indefinitely (might as well make inevitable circumstance your price). So basically she gets 3 wishes, and free room and board.

 

Lanfear, quite possibly doesn't know that the gateway is destroyed. She likely knows about negotiating with the 'finns, sets her price, then finds to her horror that she cannot leave by the slagged archway, despite paying her price. By default, she has to stay because unlike Mat, her last wish was not to 'get out of this bloody place'. In some desperate escape attempt, or just because she is a darkfriend and no longer protected by her deal, she is killed after a small period of captivity.

 

Not the prettiest of theories, and its been a while since my last re-read, but this is the best I can come up with.

 

As far as Lanfears weakened power, this is my idea. We know that channeling is an ability linked to the soul as demonstrated by the 'gars (or we at least make the assumption for the sake of this theory). Shields blocks the connection between the soul and body which allows for channeling. Severing breaks that connection. Burning out fries the connection completely.

 

An example in electronics might help me explain this.

 

In a simple lightbulb circuit, if you put a short (shield), current simply can't reach the bulb to light it, even though all conections can still exist. Removing the short allows a normal current flow. Cutting a wire (stilling/gentling) makes it impossible to make current flow, unless repaired. Overloading the circuit can cause damamge to wires (burning out) and pretty much everything else in the circuit, possibly causing damage to the power source.

 

If it is like this, being burned out could not only cut off your ability to channel, but actually damage your souls capacity to do so. Lanfear, being burned out is incapable of channeling in her own body. However, if she killed and reincarnated, the body damage would be done away with, leaving only the soul damage to her, effectively weakening her maximum output even in a new body.

 

There are holes in this theory (LTT burning himself up with the OP springs to mind), and needs refinement, but I think it more or less works out. But like I said before, its been a while since my last re-read. I could be missing lots of somethings.

 

*Edited for bad grammer and clarity.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I don't believe that Lanfaer would have been hurt inside Finnland because she is a DF or because she fights on the side of the shadow (she more then a DF of course).

I guess everybody agrees that the finns are not of this world but for me this has always implied that they have no part in the shadow-light conflict too. Min says that Rand being a tav'eren doesn't only influence things for the better but can make things turn bad as well. Balance, Min called it.

I seem to remember Moiraine saying something simular about the pattern itself...

Yeah, here it is:

Moiraine says that the Creator is good, the Dark One is evil, but the Pattern is neither. (TDR,Ch33))

from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

I think Finnland is closely connected with the pattern and is therefor neutral too.

This might also explain the fact why 'Questions relating to the Shadow may result in madness or death' . These kind of questions would compromise the Finn neutrality.

 

Let me know what you think about this!

 

One more question: i just read this entire topic (except the more mathematical parts, because, kobra_khan69 said it best: It may be a fixed variable I guess to be reduced when a woman is healed by a woman, but I don't see it happening especially with Robert Jordan. ) and I saw mentionned Aes Sedai can release there bonds on warders

but I can't remember ever reading about this. So, where do you get this from?

[kobra_khan69]

I don't believe that Lanfaer would have been hurt inside Finnland because she is a DF or because she fights on the side of the shadow (she more then a DF of course).

I guess everybody agrees that the finns are not of this world but for me this has always implied that they have no part in the shadow-light conflict too. Min says that Rand being a tav'eren doesn't only influence things for the better but can make things turn bad as well. Balance' date=' Min called it.

I seem to remember Moiraine saying something simular about the pattern itself...

Yeah, here it is:

[i']Moiraine says that the Creator is good, the Dark One is evil, but the Pattern is neither. (TDR,Ch33)[/i])

from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

I think Finnland is closely connected with the pattern and is therefor neutral too.

This might also explain the fact why 'Questions relating to the Shadow may result in madness or death' . These kind of questions would compromise the Finn neutrality.

 

Let me know what you think about this!

 

One more question: i just read this entire topic (except the more mathematical parts, because, kobra_khan69 said it best: It may be a fixed variable I guess to be reduced when a woman is healed by a woman, but I don't see it happening especially with Robert Jordan. ) and I saw mentionned Aes Sedai can release there bonds on warders

but I can't remember ever reading about this. So, where do you get this from?

 

 

I like your theory it appeals to me for some reason I can't think right now though.

 

As for the warder thing Moiraine offers to release Lan's bond if he wishes it. Can't remember where or when but she makes the offer. May have been in the second book but not positive.

[Luckers]

Further on you refuted your own arguement.

 

A nice statement. You do know you have to show where... right?

 

Your apparently not going to listen to what I have to say and your not grasping what they said in the book in the same way I did. I honestly don't feel like arguing about this right now but I don't want your comments to go unanswered so I will do my best to answer them for now. They may judge their social status by strength in the Power but that doesn't mean thats ALL they're talking about in this excerpt. I'm going to quote it one more time and hopefully you will see what I am talking about.

 

I do listen to what you say. Never fear that. I don't agree... but nor do i deny your right to maintain that argument... You would be the one that was doing that.

 

 

As for the actual issue... well, i dont really see how that affects the actual issue. You seem to be stating that they lost strength in the power in addition to the loss of social status... what i dont get is why? We all know this. More position is merely that that loss is accentuated by the resulting loss of social status. Moreover, if we merely take your side... Suine and Leane lost strength in the power... Lanfear lost strength in the power... is seems counterproductive.

 

But you had a quote. I wouldn't have you suggest i didn't read your comments. so... your quote..

 

I'm going to quote it one more time and hopefully you will see what I am talking about.

 

Paperback - Lord of Chaos: To Heal Again Page 603

Quote:

 

Leane shook her head. "Noone has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others would see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

 

 

Its a given that in that chapter they are talking about how their words will be weighed now by their strength and not on merit alone but essentially they are just wanting to be able to channel as much as they could once.

 

Hmm... i'm sorry, my issue is with your use of the word 'essentially'... In the part you enlarged alone the sentence is specifically and only in reference to what such a gain would have as an effect to their social standing... so im sorry....

 

 

I already conceded this point read before you try to call me to task on something old please, btw this is where you refuted your own arguement.

 

Quote:

They are less than 1/2 of what they were that is evident in that they wish to be 1/2 as powerful as they were. You can't argue that particular point because it is clear when they say it.

 

 

Quote:

I love when people say that to me. Although how anyone could miss the fact that that entire paragraph is about their social standing i dont know. When they speak of half of what they were they are speaking in reference to the range of strength represented in Salidar, and furthermore the degree of their fall in accentuated by the degree that loss in power affects their social standing. A loss of 1 unit of strength represent a loss of 5 units of social standing... and thats assuming that the Aes Sedai bell curve is exactly equal. What if the Aes Sedai average is 38 units of strength?

 

Does that quantify as an argument?

 

 

So your saying 1 point of strength = 5 points of standing.

 

Okay so that would be a relevance issue anyway. For her to have lost 1/2 of her social standing it would still need to be less than 1/2 what she was.

 

She was 40 in power = 200 in social standing

40-10 = 200 - 50

30 = 150 Is 150 less than 1/2 of her social standing BEFORE she was stilled?

That seems to be the point you were trying to make if I am wrong please correct me. <--- Edited in after a bit so some points may lose standing because I just thought of it.

 

 

Ok, first, your math is wrong... or rather your understanding of mine is (which is likely my fault). However, the point was not in the math, it was in the idea, so i will address that first.

 

My point was quite simply that the degree of social loss exceeds the degree of strength loss by a significant amount.

 

Moreover, since you seem to like your maths, the likelyhood of the Aes Sedai average strength being exactly on the median is extremely low. AND THIS IS THE BIG ISSUE. The degree in social loss is driving power behind the extent of the reaction to Suine and Leane's loss in strenght. The degree of social deferment is 1) limited to a very small range of of strengths. 2) unknown to the degree of deferment between levels of strength, but likely to be extreme given the limited range mentioned in point 1. 3) Certainly not a quantifiable issue that can be raised as and adequate defence to the evidence suggesting Lanfear being severed.

 

As to the math. I was speaking of two seperate ranges... a range being a mathematical area of numbers. So we have two different scales, each marked out of 100.

 

The first is the range of strengths. this goes, for the sake of argument, from Morgase at a 1 to Lanfear at a 100.

 

Then there is the range of Aes Sedai hierarchy. This ranges from Daigan at a 1 to Suine at 100. (I specified my ignoring of Cadsuane, but to refresh Suine was speaking of the sisters in Salidar. We know that there are none above Suines strength.)

 

This is the point, the second scale only covers 20% of the first. Let me show you.

 

Scale = _ to 10%.

 

Scale of strengths is above, scale of Aes Sedai hierarchy is below.

 

__________

__

 

 

Do you see what i mean. A loss of half is negligable. Here. l means lanfear or Suines strength.

 

Before.

 

__________l

__l

 

After

 

_________l_

_l_

 

?

 

Its been stated before that the loss of a woman channeling MAY be a constant variable not a percentage and I am starting to think that that may be right but what your saying is that Siuan and Leane aren't below 1/2 of what their previous strength was and thats completely off the mark IMHO.

 

Again... Their judgements have only been in the Aes Sedai range of strengths, in which yes, they have fallen below half. But in the larger scheme of things, no i dont think they have. They are certainly no sorilea now, or a Alise.

 

The fact is that they remain above the Aes Sedai cut off point, and as channelers they remain viable and potent. I do not see it as possible for them to have lost half their strength. Moreover there is no evidence for them having done so. The oft repeated sentence in LoC refers ONLY to their desire to recover something of what they were.

 

 

 

Point being? They also say that they are little better than servants to those higher than them in the power, which most are. Also I addressed this a few seconds ago.

 

Well in part you made my point, by showing the extreme degree to which one strength level defers to another. Since we know they remain in the range of Aes Sedai strength you've just proven that there IS a massive degree of deference resulting from a small range of strength differences... Thanks.

 

Well I hope so, the weakest of novices should be below them. Just because they are now dramatically weaker doesn't mean that they are the weakest.

 

I'm confused... What do novices have to do with that point? The point is that the weakest Aes Sedai are below them. And certainly that they arn't the weakest isn't in question... indeed that is a large part of my argument.... Mine, moreso then yours, given that had they lost half their overall strength then they wouldn't be in the range of Aes Sedai strengths....

 

So yeah... overall confusion. You conceed my point... and still maintain your argument?

 

Okay thats kind of stupid or maybe I am not grasping the complexities at which your mind is working.

A) Gives an argument for itself.

B) Okay so the fact that they are less than half of what they were only accentuates the fact that if they WERE to gain back more of their power they would be in a better position to guide the flow of events.

 

Thank you for conceding A. B... im confused... they dont say that they were half of what they were. Moreover since that is a reply to my comment i dont understand it even more so....

 

They state that if they were to REGAIN half of what they had (point: this only concerns the strength they lost) they would be in a better position socially. MY POINT: this indicates AGAIN the degree to which loss of strength has an effect (again, a dramatic effect) on their social standing.

 

Overall thought... confusion.

 

Please share the factual evidence and I will concede the point, until then it is only your opinion such as it is mine. Don't insult me because you disagree with me.

 

Factual: Written in the books. Your opinion: that waffle you asserted about what you think of the way strengths work with channelers.

 

My Factual statement.

 

Cyndane thinks to herself... thinks, mind... that Alivia is stronger then she used to be [as Lanfear] and that this is impossible. Moreover this thought is critical of Cyndane herself, and therefore unlikely to be the result of hubris (either of Lanfear of Cyndane)

 

An Aes Sedai asserts that Sharina may very well be the strongest a female channeler can be. This indicates and existing knowledge of a top strength. Aes Sedai mystique is not an argument against this since this is not a statement, but a theory, and therefore entered not as a fact of an all-knowing Aes Sedai, but an idea of a woman who has some reason to think there may be an ultimate strength despite the recent influx of increasingly and increasingly stronger woman.

 

The general fact that we have not encountered anyone stronger then Sharina, Alivia or Lanfear. And we have the opinions of MANY female channelers.

 

These are factual points of evidence in that that ACTUALLY occur in the books.

 

Now, your argument was that you didn't think strengths could possibly work like that.

 

Does my comment make more sense now?

 

If you thought it was harsh you wouldn't have been rude and left it in there. Got any actual hard evidence for this claim? The majority of Aes Sedai are fools who think they know everything and so are afraid to try new things. Just because it is hard doesn't mean that it is limited to the strong it just means that it will take more work for someone who is weak to get as good as someone who is stronger, just like any skill, it needs to be honed. My opinion of course as it is yours that you have to be strong to do it.

 

I'm sorry, this isn't a matter of Aes Sedai posturing. We have seen the inability of Aes Sedai to weave beyond a certain amount of flows. Katerine who has nearly a century more experience of with the power could dream of equalling Egwenes display. Counteless time throughout the series the amount that Aes Sedai can devide your weaves is limited to at best 4, and yet untrained children like Rand can devide theirs 12 ways... or so forth....

 

Show me one instance in which a weak woman who has experience matches Egwene, or Rand, or Nynaeve, or Elayne, or Moiraine of Suine even.

 

That is evidence.

 

Who ever said Leane couldn't channel to an incredibly effective degree?

 

You did. In stating she had lost half her overall strength you were asserting that she was on a level at which Aes Sedai did not allow novices to test for the Accepted. Essentially you were puting her on a level with Alise. The fact that she is not is a point on my side.

 

The fact is that Suine and Leane did not lose strength to the stage that they were innefectual, as you agree. And the fact is, furthermore, that a like loss in strength by Lanfear would... well, frankly it would weaken her to the degree we see Cyndane in.

 

You just gave me your opinions. I'm tired of arguing opinions so bring some quotes to the table I'm through with this argument. I have 4 tests tomorrow I have to get some rest and I am not going to take up my time trying to convince someone who will not budge that he's wrong and I am right when both of our opinions are just that OPINIONS.

 

Hmm. Given im the one that actually showed examples of occurences i find that harsh. Lets see.

 

Devide of flows.

 

Me: Egwene, Rand, Moiraine, Suine, Katerine, The rest of the Aes Sedai.

 

You: ....

 

Ultimate strength of women.

 

Me: Cyndane, random Aes Sedai, general interaction with women who can channel.

 

You: ....

 

You've challanged my knowledge or inclusion of the texts at several points.... without reason. That is all.

 

and I saw mentionned Aes Sedai can release there bonds on warders

but I can't remember ever reading about this. So, where do you get this from?

 

This was hinted at several times through the series... Kobra shows one of them. It was finally addressed by RJ directly, where he said that it is possible for Aes Sedai to undo the bond though this is not widely known, even amongst warders. He said that Aes Sedai who know they will die do this to save their warders the suffering of the death consumption effect, and that those that did it when their warders were dying to save themselves the sorrow effect faced some fairly heavy disgust by their sisters.

[FelixA9]

I always thought that it was a punishment administerd by the Dark One (or Shaidar Haran) for Cyndane to be weaker in the power than she was as Lanfear. Didn't she try to kill Rand that day she went through the doorway with Rand? I thought it was made clear to the forsaken that he was not to be killed.

 

She's still stronger than Grendal even so.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I think that Lanfaer's loss in strenght was the price she negociated with the Finns. I don't know what she was granted, there are no real clues!

A punishment by the DO seems unlikely. She was punished by the cour'souvra and why would the DO make his own weapons blunt? - as was already mentionned in this topic.

[Luckers]

I think that Lanfaer's loss in strenght was the price she negociated with the Finns. I don't know what she was granted, there are no real clues!

A punishment by the DO seems unlikely. She was punished by the cour'souvra and why would the DO make his own weapons blunt? - as was already mentionned in this topic.

 

My problem with that is that the Finns have an avowed aversion to the Shadow. Questions alone touching on the Shadow result in death, and Lanfear is a lot more then a question. She is as close to being a living embodiement of the shadow as it is possible to be.

 

Moreover their arrival resulted in the destruction of the door, something the Finns obviously valued, and if what occured on the human side is any indication, it also caused a fairly vicious fire, something they not only desperately fear/dislike, but one that there were no male channelers around to contain. Given the verocious nature of the fire and the smoke on the human side it seems likely that there was conciderable demage on the Finn side.

 

So essentially what i am saying is why would the Finns deal with Lanfear? It must be remembered that they are not magical beings, and whilst yes, they show a certain refined honour in sticking to their agreements, Lanfear broke those agreements twice over.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I don't believe that Lanfaer would have been hurt inside Finnland because she is a DF or because she fights on the side of the shadow (she more then a DF of course).

I guess everybody agrees that the finns are not of this world but for me this has always implied that they have no part in the shadow-light conflict too. Min says that Rand being a tav'eren doesn't only influence things for the better but can make things turn bad as well. Balance' date=' Min called it.

I seem to remember Moiraine saying something simular about the pattern itself...

Yeah, here it is:

[i']Moiraine says that the Creator is good, the Dark One is evil, but the Pattern is neither. (TDR,Ch33)[/i])

from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

I think Finnland is closely connected with the pattern and is therefor neutral too.

This might also explain the fact why 'Questions relating to the Shadow may result in madness or death' . These kind of questions would compromise the Finn neutrality.

 

As for the destruction of the door, well yeah, they wouldn't have been pleased with that. Although, technically, that's Moiraine's fault, not Lanfear's.

[Luckers]

I think Finnland is closely connected with the pattern and is therefor neutral too.

This might also explain the fact why 'Questions relating to the Shadow may result in madness or death' . These kind of questions would compromise the Finn neutrality.

 

Yet we have seen the Finns wearing human skin. I do not think them to be as noble or nuetral as you think. Alien, certainly, and not alligned with either side, but not nuetral. They are more like a third side. They have their own position and agenda, which seems in general to be looking to their own benefit.

 

Certainly they have displayed a degree of self-worth. They seek things that pleasure them, and deny things that hurt them.

 

If the Dark One breaks free their realm is at as much risk as any other, and since they obviously dont serve him they have no expectation of being spared. Their prior display of self-interest suggests that abstract nuetrility does not fit them.

 

Lanfear gave them a lot of reason to be angry with her, additionally she did end up dead, indicating that something about her was more objectionable to the Finns then Moiraine. Whilst that could be something specific to their interaction, and not have to do with her nature as a Darkfriend, it should be noted that at the fundemental level the only difference between the two from the point of view of the Finns was their alleigence.

 

But even if they are nuetral, as you suggest, their interactions with humans seem bound closely by the rules of the Agreement. Lanfear and Moiraine broke that agreement, and cut them off from a source of something they valued. Since we have seen Finns wearing human skin we know they arn't overly forgiving. I see no reason for them to offer either of them wishes.

[Beowolf]

^ There is nothing to show that the Finns as a group aren't all about neutrality. The Finns can read the pattern, can they not? They also display an awareness of the use of Balefire, something unseen anywhere else. As it was said before, the Pattern is neither Light nor Shadow. A pattern of but one color is no pattern. Perhaps the Finn are directly connected to the pattern itself. Perhaps they aid in keeping the balance between Light and Shadow. I'm getting off-topic aren't I... well, I don't think Lanfear got any "wishes", at least not by the original Agreement. If perhaps some other bargain was reached... that would allow her to get out just in time to kill Asmodean, and die a mysterious death. :D

[Luckers]

There is nothing to show that the Finns as a group aren't all about neutrality.

 

Actually there is... which is pretty much what my entire post above is about. The Finns have as much to lose as any other living creature if the Dark One escapes. We have seen them display radical self-interest... they seek that which pleasures them, and deny that which hurts them, they display anger, and wear human skin... expecting them to be nuetral in this is somewhat of an extreme ask.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Well, déjà-vu?

I did change my mind about this topic a bit. (lost in cyberspace now)

Goes something like this:

Yes, the Finn are pissed off with Lanfear and Moiraine for breaking the doorway and doing this in a way wich caused a lot of fire and - more importantly - lots of light too.

I'm not sure this would have broken the agreement but it does make it (even) less likely for the Finn to have granted M and L wishes.

The Finns have as much to lose as any other living creature if the Dark One escapes.

I still don't think the Finn mingle in the Shadow-Light conflict. This has been a battle that's been going on from the beginning. The DO always lost. Perhaps they know something we don't?

Perhaps they render service (wathever it is the Finn do?) to 'dark threads' of the pattern?

and wear human skin

, gotten from fools who didn't bargain smartly, I think.

 

They also display an awareness of the use of Balefire, something unseen anywhere else.

What's this about Beowolf?

[Beowolf]

^ Their phrophecies are the only ones to specifically predict the affects of balefire. And as to Luckers..., well, there isn't hard evidence one way or another at all, but you're still probably right(as usual :D ).

[grump]

I think you all have been nibbling around what has happened. When the 2 women arrived Lanfear wanted to leave and the Finns did the same as with Mat, made the deal then set the price , that being her current body and part of her strength, hoping to be rid of her. The DO show up and finds her another body. If the finns can add memorys to Mat and protect him from the one power, they probably know enough to delete part of her power. It also is a lot simpler than the other ideas being discussed out there. The finns could block the bond on moriane and keep her because they expect that will bring Mat back they may yet want something from him.

[Luckers]

I still don't think the Finn mingle in the Shadow-Light conflict. This has been a battle that's been going on from the beginning. The DO always lost. Perhaps they know something we don't?

Perhaps they render service (wathever it is the Finn do?) to 'dark threads' of the pattern?

 

I agree, they dont mingle. I dont however think that makes them neutral, especially given that there is some (circumstantial, i will agree) evidence of their dislike in the fact that Lanfear died, and they punish question pertaining to the Shadow.

 

Quote:

and wear human skin

, gotten from fools who didn't bargain smartly, I think.

 

Nah, the ordered it online... you can find the most amazing stuff on pandimensional ebay.

 

Their phrophecies are the only ones to specifically predict the affects of balefire. And as to Luckers..., well, there isn't hard evidence one way or another at all, but you're still probably right(as usual ).

 

I'm never right, i just rant and rave until people get sick of me, and leave. :)

[Phiotr AlManera]

I agree, they dont mingle. I dont however think that makes them neutral, especially given that there is some (circumstantial, i will agree) evidence of their dislike in the fact that Lanfear died, and they punish question pertaining to the Shadow.

If they don't mingle, doesn't that make them neutral?

As for the shadow questions, that I would consider mingling.

[Razor]

How much strength did Lanfear loose. Grendal thought in her POV that Cyndane was stronger than her when she met with Moghdien and Cyndane.

[Beckon]

You don't seem to be getting it and tbh I am tired of arguing the point.

 

Siuan - Less than 1/2 their old strength

 

Leane - Less than 1/2 their old strength

 

Lanfear - NOT less than 1/2 her old strength.

 

Now Siuan was one of the strongest women in the tower before Egwene Nynaeve and Elayne came along so it is a dramatic loss of power.

 

It may be a fixed variable I guess to be reduced when a woman is healed by a woman' date=' but I don't see it happening especially with Robert Jordan.

 

Hmm the forsaken also have the ability,and or knowledge, to partially mask their power or at least the males do because Dashiva does when he goes to study with Rand, otherwise he would have been discovered right off the bat. Perhaps Lanfear is doing this to lull the other Chosen into thinking she is weaker than they are so she can strike when she needs to. Thats probably just another far fetched idea but its an idea.[/quote']

 

I think what Luckers is trying to say is that they are reckoning the loss relative to how strong you'd have to be to be Aes Sedai not in terms of absolute strength which would include those who are able to channel but are not considered strong enough for the shawl.

 

So just to be deliberately simplistic about it: say on a scale of 1 to 10 you have to be a 5 to be able to test for the shawl. If you're lower than 5 you're put out of the tower once you know enough not to kill yourself. Having been the among the very strongest Aes Sedai, Suian would be a 10 in strictly Aes Sedai terms. If she lost over half her total or absolute strength she would be < 5 and would no longer qualify for the shawl. If the loss is calculated from her relative strength on the other hand (which would be half the distance between 10 and 5 or 2.5) she's maybe a 6 or 7, which is about a 30% loss of her absolute strength.

 

So the relative loss results in a fairly cataclysmic loss of social standing amongst other Aes Sedai. However, in absolute terms she's still above average.

 

So now consider Lanfear. On the same scale of 1 to 10 she'd be off the charts...say 20. If the above example is the standard and healing the severing of a member of your own gender results in about a 30% loss of strength, that puts Lanfear at about a 14 which is still stronger than any living Aes Sedai. The greater original strength (and lack of Aes Sedai prejudice clouding her judgement :P) means that the same percentage loss is not as grievous for Lanfear.

[Luckers]

Quote:

I agree, they dont mingle. I dont however think that makes them neutral, especially given that there is some (circumstantial, i will agree) evidence of their dislike in the fact that Lanfear died, and they punish question pertaining to the Shadow.

 

If they don't mingle, doesn't that make them neutral?

As for the shadow questions, that I would consider mingling.

 

I concider the shadow questions mingling as well, but i know some people dont so i was trying to not assume.

 

As for them not being involved, no it doesn't make them nuetral. If the shadow wins they lose just like ever other living being, and they have displayed self-interest... they may not get involved in the war actively, but i doubt their nuetral.

 

I think what Luckers is trying to say is that they are reckoning the loss relative to how strong you'd have to be to be Aes Sedai not in terms of absolute strength which would include those who are able to channel but are not considered strong enough for the shawl.

 

So just to be deliberately simplistic about it: say on a scale of 1 to 10 you have to be a 5 to be able to test for the shawl. If you're lower than 5 you're put out of the tower once you know enough not to kill yourself. Having been the among the very strongest Aes Sedai, Suian would be a 10 in strictly Aes Sedai terms. If she lost over half her total or absolute strength she would be < 5 and would no longer qualify for the shawl. If the loss is calculated from her relative strength on the other hand (which would be half the distance between 10 and 5 or 2.5) she's maybe a 6 or 7, which is about a 30% loss of her absolute strength.

 

So the relative loss results in a fairly cataclysmic loss of social standing amongst other Aes Sedai. However, in absolute terms she's still above average.

 

So now consider Lanfear. On the same scale of 1 to 10 she'd be off the charts...say 20. If the above example is the standard and healing the severing of a member of your own gender results in about a 30% loss of strength, that puts Lanfear at about a 14 which is still stronger than any living Aes Sedai. The greater original strength (and lack of Aes Sedai prejudice clouding her judgement ) means that the same percentage loss is not as grievous for Lanfear.

 

Thats true. And also that Suine and Leane's loss would have been further dramatised by the resulting loss in social standing. Here.

[Beowolf]

What evidence do we have that Shadow questions are punished? How did Moiraine know they are? I think she just believed it to be true without much evidence. If people came out mad, or not at all, then how does Moiraine know they asked Shadow Questions, or that the Shadow questions were what caused what happened to happen?

[Luckers]

She knew it from the Aes Sedai that made a study of that particular ter'angreal.