[Basic] Christmas Mentors & Maffia

[_CLOUD]

 FYI people right click and paste as plain text or control+shift+v. No more ugly formatting carried over.

 

Do you want me to copy paste like some sort of savage?!

[Krakalakachkn]

Listen mate, you can talk to me about dictionaries if I try to say something in your native tongue and muck it up.  i know what I said and I know the subtext behind it.  Don't lecture me about my native language ever again over something so trivial.  That pisses me off.

 

Now, for the rest of it.

 

I know what you said and didn't say.  That was the whole point of most of my post, what was unspoken but pointed to.  You're accusing me of what I accused you of, except badly.  Your patronizing tone (not that I care outside the context of the game) doesn't do you any favors.  I know why you're doing it, it's an effective way of puffing yourself up and making the other look bad.

 

Your terrible argument with Elfie was more than enough reason to vote you, and I most certainly don't have to explain my vote to you.  I say you because no one else really seems to be harping on it.

 

Now I will quote.

 

 

Cloud: I don't see any issue with my wording. You did keep your vote on me. That's a fact. I haven't said anything about you lacking a reason with doing so. In contrary I think you did have a reason for keeping your vote on me for so long without commenting on anything game related, a mafia reason to be exact.

 

 

I never said it wasn't a fact, you did say something about my lack of reason (several times in fact), 

 

 

 

Here are two examples, I can quote more.

 

 

 

You say that you don't like to unvote just to unvote, but what about responding to the defense of the person you think is mafia? And what about following that person onto someone else without priorly explaining what made you change your mind about that person? Or isn't that also how you play? :)

 

Oh shit you caught me.  When I say someone is scummy and later vote for their target, it obviously means I got my knickers in a twist.  Or it means I obviously don't think that the person is scummy anymore and agree with their case.  This isn't my first game, I know enough not to do that bush league shit.

 

 

I'm not belittling my case on Hoof by calling it quick. It was quick because I only broke down and analyzed one post of his. I wasn't setting you up for a fail, and certainly not because you agreed with it. What made me suspicious of you is how you haven't given any reasoning for your actions back then. You might want to look up the word quick in the dictionary by the way, because quick doesn't have anything to do with insignificance.

 

See above.

 

 

And lastly I said that your reasoning for switching to Hoof sounded like an excuse to me, meaning that I explained how it looked from my point of view which couldn't have been an attempt to make you look worse because of it's subjective nature. You could better say that I didn't find your reasoning for your vote switching from me to Hoof to be valid. 

 

You said nothing of the sort.  Don't try to qualify such statements after the fact, it's obvious that you're grasping.

 

 

 

I gave my views of your action from a neutral, and even a personal angle to keep everyone focused on the facts behind your actions. You are however now the person who is trying to paint my play in a bad light by introducing an unnecessary amount of hyperbole.

 

And, lastly, you know nothing about the facts behind my actions.  The mere mentioning of this is enough to paint you scum.    The fact that you attempt to call your actions neutral is laughable in the least, and your attempt to pretend knowledge of the facts behind my actions is pure ridiculosity (and yes, I know this isn't a word).

 

[Krakalakachkn]

Goddamn format shite.

 

 

Here are the two posts I tried to quote: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/?p=3118172 or, better yet, http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/?p=3118702

[Krakalakachkn]

I give up.

[Nolder]

Nolder, you keep accusing me of not giving reason's.

Because it's true. One time does not change the trend.

Let's go back through this entire thread and look at your votes shall we?

• Post #114 you vote Elf with no reason. We all remember how this went don't we? Tommy asked you to explain your vote. You didn't, instead you dodged and implied your reasons were the same as Cloud's but never stated so outright. Elf asked you to explain. You ignored her. She votes you and asks again. You tell her to reread the thread as if there is something to find other than nonsense and dodging. I jump in and explain why asking why you have to "regurgitate" Cloud's reasons aren't the same as saying "I agree with Cloud" and that you still need to give a reason. You ignore that and call me scum. Let's move on to your next vote.
• Post #279 you vote Goldeneyes and say his last post was a "big pile" that you'll explain in the morning. Maybe. You didn't so Cloud reminded you and asked you to explain again. You say you will if things calm down at work. You do eventually get around to it in post #305 but the only thing you said which can be called a case IMO was the last bit where you say Goldeneyes was very "astute and succinct" in his other game with you and now he isn't. Which strangely echo's Leelou. Or maybe she's echoing you. Regardless this is the one time you give any kind of reason or explanation. Let's move on and prove that though.
• Post #831 you vote me. Your case? "His voting actions yesterday were scummy.  Looked made to hide any info incase he got lynched.  His reasoning did not suffice to me." That's a direct quote as anyone who wishes to click the link will see. You've made 3 votes in two game days and 46 pages and not once have you bothered to actually case anyone. "do I really have to regurgitate?" "the play is different from some other game" "the voting is scummy". This is all trash and I've called it as such every time.

I gave a clear reason for voting Golden.   I even quoted for you a page back.  You continue to fabricate to make your stories seem more true.

It's not clear. At it's very best it's a meta case which is unreliable in the best of circumstances between individuals who have played together for years. You've played all of two games with Golden and somehow you and Leelou think you have his meta down to the point where that's all you need to lynch him? I think you buried your vote on a teammate early because your style this game is to remain quiet and lurky. Maybe you're the GF trying to bait a cop view idk but what I do know is your play is scummy and you deserve to be lynched for it.

 

Hally never voted Golden.

Yes, I was mistaken.

 

I've played in many games with Hally...probably many more than you.  And your representation of her is incorrect.  She does not post a lot...but when she does it means something usually.  This game...nothing.  There hasn't been 1 game related post.

You're either lying intentionally or just plain wrong.

It could be possible the times she's played with me and done the same you weren't in those games.

I'm not going to take the time to prove you wrong right now but if you want to hold to this claim or if Hallia would like to see what I'm saying either of you can feel free to PM me after the game and I'll go through old games with you guys and point out how often she posts fluff and not much else.

 

Set up talk is distracting and IS a common mafia/scum tactic.  Scum hunt and all will work out.  If we lynch 4 total scum and the game isn't over...then worry about a survivor.  You want to survivor hunt?  That is a scum ploy...not town ploy.

Setup talk CAN be distracting. Not IS.

It is dependent on the situation. Right now you are making it distracting.

It happened for a couple posts and now it's done which is a perfect example of useful setup talk going perfectly.

If I was pushing setup talk you might have had a point but I already dropped it and moved on.

The fact that you are trying to push this angle just reeks of desperation.

 

And as far as you calling me aloof???  I've been laid up in bed with the flu since last Thursday.  I've made that clear.

Have you? Made it clear I mean. You're someone's who's posts I tried not to skip or skim and I've gone back and reread a couple times now and I don't recall you or anyone else mentioning being sick. If that's true I'm sorry you've been sick but I think you misunderstand what I meant when I said aloof. You're taking it to mean inactive or lurky it seems and thaat's not what I meant. I meant aloof in the "active lurking sense". You are here and you make that clear but you don't engage in discussion like the rest of us do. And when you're forced into one you disappear and/or change the subject and start a debate with someone else. I noticed you used this tactic to avoid explaining your votes three or four times by picking a fight with Tommy in the early game.

 

Funny you wish to use that logic on me considering your aloofness and lack of participation the first 30 pages of the game.

Logical fallacy. Tu Quoque.

You're answering criticism with criticism instead of engaging with my argument.

What I do, right or wrong, has nothing to do with what you do, right or wrong.

Putting that aside though I payed for my activity problems by nearly being lynched and still actively being on several peoples scum lists including our confirmed town.

[Nolder]

I give up.

I feel ya.

[Nolder]

Nolder, you keep accusing me of not giving reason's.

Because it's true. One time does not change the trend.

Let's go back through this entire thread and look at your votes shall we?

• Post #114 you vote Elf with no reason. We all remember how this went don't we? Tommy asked you to explain your vote. You didn't, instead you dodged and implied your reasons were the same as Cloud's but never stated so outright. Elf asked you to explain. You ignored her. She votes you and asks again. You tell her to reread the thread as if there is something to find other than nonsense and dodging. I jump in and explain why asking why you have to "regurgitate" Cloud's reasons aren't the same as saying "I agree with Cloud" and that you still need to give a reason. You ignore that and call me scum. Let's move on to your next vote.
• Post #279 you vote Goldeneyes and say his last post was a "big pile" that you'll explain in the morning. Maybe. You didn't so Cloud reminded you and asked you to explain again. You say you will if things calm down at work. You do eventually get around to it in post #305 but the only thing you said which can be called a case IMO was the last bit where you say Goldeneyes was very "astute and succinct" in his other game with you and now he isn't. Which strangely echo's Leelou. Or maybe she's echoing you. Regardless this is the one time you give any kind of reason or explanation. Let's move on and prove that though.
• Post #831 you vote me. Your case? "His voting actions yesterday were scummy.  Looked made to hide any info incase he got lynched.  His reasoning did not suffice to me." That's a direct quote as anyone who wishes to click the link will see. You've made 3 votes in two game days and 46 pages and not once have you bothered to actually case anyone. "do I really have to regurgitate?" "the play is different from some other game" "the voting is scummy". This is all trash and I've called it as such every time.

I gave a clear reason for voting Golden.   I even quoted for you a page back.  You continue to fabricate to make your stories seem more true.

It's not clear. At it's very best it's a meta case which is unreliable in the best of circumstances between individuals who have played together for years. You've played all of two games with Golden and somehow you and Leelou think you have his meta down to the point where that's all you need to lynch him? I think you buried your vote on a teammate early because your style this game is to remain quiet and lurky. Maybe you're the GF trying to bait a cop view idk but what I do know is your play is scummy and you deserve to be lynched for it.

 

Hally never voted Golden.

Yes, I was mistaken.

 

I've played in many games with Hally...probably many more than you.  And your representation of her is incorrect.  She does not post a lot...but when she does it means something usually.  This game...nothing.  There hasn't been 1 game related post.

You're either lying intentionally or just plain wrong.

It could be possible the times she's played with me and done the same you weren't in those games.

I'm not going to take the time to prove you wrong right now but if you want to hold to this claim or if Hallia would like to see what I'm saying either of you can feel free to PM me after the game and I'll go through old games with you guys and point out how often she posts fluff and not much else.

 

Set up talk is distracting and IS a common mafia/scum tactic.  Scum hunt and all will work out.  If we lynch 4 total scum and the game isn't over...then worry about a survivor.  You want to survivor hunt?  That is a scum ploy...not town ploy.

Setup talk CAN be distracting. Not IS.

It is dependent on the situation. Right now you are making it distracting.

It happened for a couple posts and now it's done which is a perfect example of useful setup talk going perfectly.

If I was pushing setup talk you might have had a point but I already dropped it and moved on.

The fact that you are trying to push this angle just reeks of desperation.

 

And as far as you calling me aloof???  I've been laid up in bed with the flu since last Thursday.  I've made that clear.

Have you? Made it clear I mean. You're someone's who's posts I tried not to skip or skim and I've gone back and reread a couple times now and I don't recall you or anyone else mentioning being sick. If that's true I'm sorry you've been sick but I think you misunderstand what I meant when I said aloof. You're taking it to mean inactive or lurky it seems and thaat's not what I meant. I meant aloof in the "active lurking sense". You are here and you make that clear but you don't engage in discussion like the rest of us do. And when you're forced into one you disappear and/or change the subject and start a debate with someone else. I noticed you used this tactic to avoid explaining your votes three or four times by picking a fight with Tommy in the early game.

 

Funny you wish to use that logic on me considering your aloofness and lack of participation the first 30 pages of the game.

Logical fallacy. Tu Quoque.

You're answering criticism with criticism instead of engaging with my argument.

What I do, right or wrong, has nothing to do with what you do, right or wrong.

Putting that aside though I payed for my activity problems by nearly being lynched and still actively being on several peoples scum lists including our confirmed town.

[Nolder]

WHAT THE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

 

In the post preview it shows 1, 2, and 3.

I post and I have 1234. GOD I HATE POSTING ON THIS SITE IT'S SO BAD AND MAKES ME WANT TO BREAK THINGS ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH.

[Nolder]

[keyholder21]

You're accusing me of what I accused you of, except badly.

Krak, can you explain this part please?

[keyholder21]

Not sure what to think of the anger/defensiveness.

[Hallia]

I agree with you there Key, I can't post much from DM mobile, but I can read it. His overdefensiveness doesn't make him look better to me

[_CLOUD]

Listen mate, you can talk to me about dictionaries if I try to say something in your native tongue and muck it up. i know what I said and I know the subtext behind it. Don't lecture me about my native language ever again over something so trivial. That pisses me off.

 

I didn’t know that it would piss you off like this, and I wasn’t trying to test your reactions with it either. My apologies :)

 

I know what you said and didn't say. That was the whole point of most of my post, what was unspoken but pointed to. You're accusing me of what I accused you of, except badly. Your patronizing tone (not that I care outside the context of the game) doesn't do you any favors. I know why you're doing it, it's an effective way of puffing yourself up and making the other look bad.

 

You are right that I adopted a different way of writing in this mafia game, but I never meant it to be patronizing. It’s more of a way to appear more concise and less fidgety which should make me look more townie and allow me to survive at least beyond Day 1. And no, I don’t act like this outside mafia games in case you guys are wondering that too.

 

 

Moving on…

 

I quoted the two examples you meant to show:

 

 

Yeah Blackhoof doesn't look good.

 

 

##unvote vote Blackhoof

You now all of a sudden agree with me? You didn’t respond back at me when I retorted your arguments for why I must be scum, and you kept your vote on me since then without bother to reply to anything in the game except to call me out for buddying, so your sudden switch to Hoof without explanation seems odd.

 

 

 

Yeah Blackhoof doesn't look good.

 

 

##unvote vote Blackhoof

You now all of a sudden agree with me? You didn’t respond back at me when I retorted your arguments for why I must be scum, and you kept your vote on me since then without bother to reply to anything in the game except to call me out for buddying, so your sudden switch to Hoof without explanation seems odd.

 

 

 

Also Krak can you explain why you all of a sudden switched to following me after Hoof while you thought I was scum until then?

 

 

*edited for better readability.

 

 

“I never said it wasn't a fact.”

Well, then I must have misinterpreted you. You were exaggerating in your analysis of my post and it didn’t help you convey your defense to me.

 

“You did say something about my lack of reason (several times in fact).”

I called you out for lack of explanation which you clearly didn’t provide. If you don’t bother explaining that you happen to change your mind about me then I obviously have no way of knowing that so it was logical for me to assume that you still had a scum read on me.

 

“Oh shit you caught me. When I say someone is scummy and later vote for their target, it obviously means I got my knickers in a twist. Or it means I obviously don't think that the person is scummy anymore and agree with their case. This isn't my first game, I know enough not to do that bush league shit.”

I’m terribly sorry for not being able to read your mind You know as well as I do that mafia is a game about analyzing interactions and when someone doesn’t bother explaining his actions or the thought processes behind them then everyone has a difficult time reading that person. This happens to work in the favor of the mafia and so I obviously read your play as scummy.

 

“You said nothing of the sort. Don't try to qualify such statements after the fact, it's obvious that you're grasping.”

It’s right there in the post dude.

 

“And, lastly, you know nothing about the facts behind my actions. The mere mentioning of this is enough to paint you scum. The fact that you attempt to call your actions neutral is laughable in the least, and your attempt to pretend knowledge of the facts behind my actions is pure ridiculosity (and yes, I know this isn't a word).”

You said yourself that you had a good reason for doing what you did, but you still haven’t bothered explaining what you got out of it. Why is that?

[_CLOUD]

I'm going to bed now. I will read the rest of this page tomorrow.

[Tommyrod]

I intend to make a case for Via but I've been a bit burnt out with mafia and busy with work. This weekend I am traveling so I'll be V/LA for the next 3-4 days. I shall return as your champion whence I am able. 

 

Keep an eye on Salami, dude has been lurking hard.

[csarmi]

Krak, Nolder - you guys can edit you know. On a side note, lists work a little strange here (that's putting it mildly), first of all its hard to finish a list (and write smth outside it) secondly it trues to figure out how you meant it and autoformats, sometimes weirdly.

[csarmi]

I've lost my time sense here. Apparently it's going to be weekend. I won't have the deadline fall to weekend so deadline is extended until the 6th January. I'll post the timer soon.

New Deadline: 2013-01-07, 06:00GMT

Timer: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20140107T07&p0=50&msg=ChristmasMM-D2B

[csarmi]

Now this was easy, as no one voted since the last VC.

 

VoteCount Day02#05

 

 

01 - Peace: -> Nolder -> Hally

02 - Cloud: -> Krak

03 - Krak: ->

04 - GoldenEyes

05 - TommyRod: -> Hally

06 - Leelou: -> Via

07 - Theodora Key: -> Krak

08 - Elffern: ->

09 - Hally: ->

10 - BFG: ->

11 - Via: ->

12 - Nolder: -> Peace

13 - BlackHoof: -> Nolder -> Hally

14 - Turin

 

 

 

Krak - 2 - Cloud, Key

Via - 1 - Leelou

Hally - 3 - Tommy, Hoof, Peace

Peace - 1 - Nolder

 

Not voting: The rest of ya lazy folks.

7 to lynch.

Deadline: 2013-01-07, 06:00GMT

Countdown: Timer: End of D2

[Blackhoof]

Krak is really responding badly right now. Taking everything so personally. Does not speak well for his townness.

 

I am feeling better about Nolder

[peacesells]

Krak is really responding badly right now. Taking everything so personally. Does not speak well for his townness.

 

I am feeling better about Nolder

 

How are you feeling better about Nolder?

 

I'll sum up his game for you so far.

 

Very early pokes his head in to defend me.

 

Disappears.

 

Shows up when getting heat and it looks like he is going to be the days lynch target and gets active all the sudden.

 

During this time he makes many incorrect statements that he later "apologizes" for.  "Oh I missed that."  Or "I admit I was skimming."  (<skimming is scummy btw)

 

Successfully derails his own train.  2 others develop in the mean time.  He votes neither of them even though we are close to the deadline.  Instead...wants to lynch an inactive who had let everyone know she was sick.  At least 1 of the 2 trains was scum.  Why wasn't he part of it?

 

Then he basically starts spamming the game thread.  Responds in a lot of individual posts, bumping up his post count while making they game more of an obstacle for townees to wade through. 

 

Not only does he use that tactic, he tries to steer the game into set up discussion.  Further derailing scumhunting. 

 

Lurking early

admitted skimming

derailing scumhunting

driving set up discussion

mass posting in spurts to make reading a thread more difficult

misrepresenting what's gone on..then apologizing when it's pointed out.

 

It's a big list of scum moves all in order to dishearten town.  Take away their drive to scumhunt. 

[Blackhoof]

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

[peacesells]

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

 

The bold - What does that prove?  He stopped doing it once I pointed it out.  How does he get credit for it in that regard?

 

 

Please go through and counter each one individually.  With specific reasons as to why I am wrong.  

[peacesells]

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

 

Explain this please. 

[Nolder]

Disappears.

Told everyone I was going to be busy.

I appreciate the breaks I was given for my patchy activity.

Not much else to say about that.

 

Shows up when getting heat and it looks like he is going to be the days lynch target and gets active all the sudden.

What was that, about two solid hours in the early morning for me?

I woke up before anyone else and committed myself to staying online and keeping up with the thread until I had to go.

And btw I'd been getting heat continuously, it just reached it's "hottest" near the deadline.

 

During this time he makes many incorrect statements that he later "apologizes" for.  "Oh I missed that."  Or "I admit I was skimming."  (<skimming is scummy btw)

During this time? What time exactly would that be?

Please narrow it down from page X to page Y for us so we can all examine this timeframe.

Pretty sure I've only made and apologized for two or three mistakes this entire game.

Skimming is bad yeah. All I had time for though.

 

Successfully derails his own train.

How does on derail their own train?

I can't control how people vote.

Admittedly I didn't want anyone to vote me but I don't see what's wrong with that.

Hell how can you even say I successfully derailed my own train in any sense of those words?

My two attempts at pushing other trains (Hallia, Theo) failed utterly while I train I had nothing to do with turned out to be the lynch.

This isn't even lying so much as it's rewriting history and hoping everyone has some kind of collective amnesia.

 

2 others develop in the mean time.  He votes neither of them even though we are close to the deadline.

Eh, pros and cons there.

I erred on the side of not voting blind.

It's easy to say I should have done this or that or the other thing but you weren't in my shoes.

You buried your vote on Goldeneyes prior to the deadline discussion and didn't even participate there so I'm not sure that you have the high ground to call out my decisions as poor during that time.

 

Instead...wants to lynch an inactive who had let everyone know she was sick.  At least 1 of the 2 trains was scum.  Why wasn't he part of it?

Nothing to say here that wasn't already covered.

 

Then he basically starts spamming the game thread.  Responds in a lot of individual posts, bumping up his post count while making they game more of an obstacle for townees to wade through.

NO. GFY.

I'm not going to stop spamming until the quote limit is removed from DM.

It's a crappy limitation that does no one any good.

I am not going to spend hours and hours formatting quotes (because whatever system we use likes to "autofix" things incorrectly instead of just leaving quotes broken so they're easy to spot and fix) only to try to post and have the forum tell me my damn post has too many quotes so I have to cut and post and cut and post resulting in at least 2 or 3 posts anyway. No. I'm not going to do it and you're just going to have to deal with it like everyone else has to and like how I have to deal with the fact that I literally cannot just make 1 mega post like I'd prefer to do most of the time anyway.

 

Not only does he use that tactic, he tries to steer the game into set up discussion.  Further derailing scumhunting.

I'm done talking about this.

If anyone is derailing here it is clearly you.

[peacesells]

You don't have to talk about it anymore Nolder.   My post was directed at Hoof for his thoughts on these things.  So..if you wish to stop, ok.